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 Drasius wrote:
CSM players took cultists because they were the cheapest thing you could take that filled your mandatory slots. Now that we have legion rules, everyone takes a warband and the only cultists you see are those in alpha legion & lost and the damned wheree they get special rules.

As for if CSM got Ork statline troops, well, we did - Tzaangors. They even get their own formation that lets them run and charge and still nobody takes them because they're trash. Why wouldn't we take advantage of it? Because there's nothing to take advantage of. T4 is almost irrelevant, Str3 IS irrelevant, moving 6" a turn is irrelevant, a 6+ "save" is not only irrelevant but absolutely laughable. CSM players are already pushing a heavy rock up a sharp incline, there's no need to make the incline sharper nor the rock heavier by taking units that are worse than the ones we already have. Even if you spend the 4ppm to give them 'Eavy armour, now they're what, 10 ppm? Compare that to the 13ppm of a world eater marine and they're just so much better than a boy that it's not funny. The only thing CSM want out of the Ork dex are Trucks, maaaaaaybe battle wagons.

And trukks are part of the deal, boyz can be so good because they have access to cheap, fast dedicated transport. Something Tzaangors don't have (also mark of Tz makes them pretty trash and bumps up their cost)

Orks are decent in a casual setting and will crumble in most competative settings outside of the occassional meta busting lists and/or extreme generalship. Orks have a lower ceiling than other lists because where they used to be able to have more targets than you had bullets, the focus on high RoF, mid Str, relatively poor AP guns means that orks are in a sad state. The mass availability of ignores cover and the fact that it's almost mandatory is one of the other things that will firmly keep orks out of the top half of the tier list as the fact that outside of MAN's and a MA warboss they have basically nothing that won't get absolutely shredded by wyverns, thunderfire cannons, tau HYMP's, MP's and SMS as well as almost anything with the Imperium of Man faction as they can throw a div or geomancy psycher into almost any squad they feel like and hand out ignores cover.

Then you've got the fact that orks struggle to deal with mech in the era of the gladius and you're already in a world of pain, then you have Imperial Knights that are effectively immune to ork shooting and are only worried about a single model in CC, let alone things like wraithknights who don't even care about PK nobs. We also get to the issue of the other CC armies like barkbark star where you don't have any real hope of doing any sort of meaningful damage while they will evaporate anything they touch. You've also got things like Necron wraiths who have the mobility to engage you wherever they like while you again are going to struggle to cause any meaningful damage to them.

So you say Orks don't beat top tier power list? Your right then, Orks are the worst army ever.

No, boyz are not great and Orks aren't fine in a competative environment. I can't believe it took as long as it did for someone to point out the obvious, almost the entire first page, only to be met with fingers in ears denial of what should be bleedingly obvious. Yes, some very, very skilled players had reasonable success with certain builds, but I would in fact wager that they can make almost anything work. There was one thread here on Dakka about an Ork general that placed... 9th or 10th and NOVA or Adepticon or something - That was a great read and well played and I salute him for that effort, but I'd also wager that 9 out of 10 players couldn't make orks work at the higher levels of competition sufficiently to place in the top half of the field and to me, that's the signal of a low tier codex.

Once again, no one has made the argument Orks are top tier, the name of the thread is "Orks aren't that bad" not "Orks are Eldar level". No one expects Orks to win ITC but they can and do place in the upper mid region with the occasional player getting into top tier region.

Orks aren't a bad army and can dominate bottom tier and mid tier armies, this isn't just us sticking fingers in our ears this is from experience: I have witnessed with my own eyes Orks go to town on lists which fhe meta calls 'top tier'. Screaming and shouting that you can't make Orks work and pointing ITC and going "look they aren't in the top 10" won't change the fact that a good Ork play will do much better than bottom tier armies which they are supposed to be one of.

The nob would hit on 3s glance on 4s has 4a and is 35 points.

Yes, a powerklaw can damage av13. How is this shocking. It's ap 2 as well. It's mathematically possible for the nob to explode the ik for +d3 hp.

Bully MANz have 20 pk attacks on the charge and can also take killsaws for 10 points, which are powerklaws with +1 a and armourbane which really hurt ik.

Cc is the best way for orks to take down a knight.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Once klawnobs are in cc with a knight, the knight is dead.

Okay at this point I honestly believe you are trying to troll me. This is such a statistical anomaly as, lets give credit to the fact that we are using baseline Paladins rather then actual horde clearers IK you'll have to have your klawnobs in your ork boy squads survive double shot battlecannons, the LD tests that would come about from losing large amounts of boyz and mob rule, get into melee with something that moves 12" a turn, and then survive the Chainsword/stomps to deal enough damage each turn to knock off the HP's against AV13.

Trukks. Always take into account trukks. I have watched someone use 5 trukks to back two IK into a corner then charge them with 50 boyz with nobz. The boyz take the brunt of the attack whilst the nobz' combined attacks of 25 S9 ap2 are enough to take down a knight easily. (In the example I gave only one trukk was taken down due to their 4++ and ramshackle) Anyone who thinks klawbobz won't tear an IK open clearly haven't played a compitent Ork player before.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Once klawnobs are in cc with a knight, the knight is dead.

Okay at this point I honestly believe you are trying to troll me. This is such a statistical anomaly as, lets give credit to the fact that we are using baseline Paladins rather then actual horde clearers IK you'll have to have your klawnobs in your ork boy squads survive double shot battlecannons, the LD tests that would come about from losing large amounts of boyz and mob rule, get into melee with something that moves 12" a turn, and then survive the Chainsword/stomps to deal enough damage each turn to knock off the HP's against AV13.

Trukks. Always take into account trukks. I have watched someone use 5 trukks to back two IK into a corner then charge them with 50 boyz with nobz. The boyz take the brunt of the attack whilst the nobz' combined attacks of 25 S9 ap2 are enough to take down a knight easily. (In the example I gave only one trukk was taken down due to their 4++ and ramshackle) Anyone who thinks klawbobz won't tear an IK open clearly haven't played a compitent Ork player before.

Then I clearly haven't, Trukks tend to fall even with.. wait 4++? I'm guessing we are talking about the Super KFF from Ghazghulls book? I don't think I tend to see people running much from that one at all. I honestly wish the random gun was cheaper, I love that thing.

But yeah it tends to be that Trukks tend to die off, and the boyz have to rely on cover to get to places, and tend to be shot down.

Of course a 4++ wouldn't help much against the IK's with the Avenger Gatling Gun, but then you may get into reach since there's less IK's to gun down the trukks.

I did forget the Nobz had A3, but I've never seen much actually reach melee without some major luck.

Bully boyz with a killsaw is an almost guaranteed dead knight...and almost guaranteed dead bully boyz. But they cost half the points even with a trukk, so it's a deal.

 koooaei wrote:
Bully boyz with a killsaw is an almost guaranteed dead knight...and almost guaranteed dead bully boyz. But they cost half the points even with a trukk, so it's a deal.

They also die pretty easily before reaching the knight.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Bully boyz with a killsaw is an almost guaranteed dead knight...and almost guaranteed dead bully boyz. But they cost half the points even with a trukk, so it's a deal.

They also die pretty easily before reaching the knight.

That's the job of trukks and voidshield generators to protect them from 'dying pretty easilly'.

From my experience knights are not really such a huge problem to orks. Magic mellee deathstars are - especially the ones with a ton of ap2 and hit&run.

A PK nob has 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge. WS4 means half hit, glancing on 5's (4's on the charge), penning on 6's (5's on the charge) with 1/6th of each pen doing an extra d3 damage. That's 0.5833 HP normally or 1.222 HP on the charge.

A knight has 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge plus an impact hit, then d3 stomps at I1 that are str6 ap4 (ie, killing on 2's). If you're taking MSU orks, you're getting your sh*t pushed in. Even worse if the knight has gone through terrain or has a gauntlet since then he can stomp first to remove boys and then attack with the D-weapon to remove the nob as well.

The only thing that a knight is really afraid of are MAN's missiles (now that tank bustas are 1 bomb per unit) since they have (or at least should have) at least 1 pair of kill saws per 3 MAN's which are 5 attacks on the charge resulting in 3.055 HP or 2.148 HP on a round where he didn't charge. On average, the knight will drop both the claw nobs, but the kill saw nob will do some serious hurt before he goes down in round 2.

Technically a warboss with klaw will also cause a knight issues since he's str10, but that's not usually what the boss is doing.

Knights are a serious problem for orks, plus, on top of all of this, knights cause fear and orks are one of the very few races that actually give a crap about fear (unless you're running Ghazzy) and that tanks your damage output to almost nothing. Considering pretty much all orks are ld 7 or 8, this is quite the issue.

All this is just CC too and makes no mention of the various ranged weapons a knight is capable of wielding.

Edit: Forgot furious charge, numbers fixed now

 Drasius wrote:
A PK nob has 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge. WS4 means half hit, glancing on 5's, penning on 6's

Furious charge.

But there's also a chance to fail a fear test if run w/o fearless.

Damn, wasn't quite quick enough with my edit. I did mention fear though, but it's a bit too swingy to account for accurately in the numbers.

Edit: It's easy to account for, but it's so all or nothing that the average isn't that accurate of a representation.

PK nob does .502 HP without the charge on average (.583/.389 is the no fear/fear split), 1.052 on the charge (1.222/0.815 is the no fear/fear split)
Killsaw MAN does 1.802 HP without the charge on average (2.092/1.395 is the fearless/fear split), 2.63 on the charge (3.055/2.037 is the fearless/fear split)

They're ok at finishing the knight off. If you want to kill a new shiny undamaged one, go with meganobz or at least a boss and a nob.

 koooaei wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Bully boyz with a killsaw is an almost guaranteed dead knight...and almost guaranteed dead bully boyz. But they cost half the points even with a trukk, so it's a deal.

They also die pretty easily before reaching the knight.

That's the job of trukks and voidshield generators to protect them from 'dying pretty easilly'.

From my experience knights are not really such a huge problem to orks. Magic mellee deathstars are - especially the ones with a ton of ap2 and hit&run.

Then those gitz will be footslogging and won't do anything for a solid 2-3 turns, at least. Enough time for the enemy to pick up them.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Bully boyz with a killsaw is an almost guaranteed dead knight...and almost guaranteed dead bully boyz. But they cost half the points even with a trukk, so it's a deal.

They also die pretty easily before reaching the knight.

That's the job of trukks and voidshield generators to protect them from 'dying pretty easilly'.

From my experience knights are not really such a huge problem to orks. Magic mellee deathstars are - especially the ones with a ton of ap2 and hit&run.

Then those gitz will be footslogging and won't do anything for a solid 2-3 turns, at least. Enough time for the enemy to pick up them.

It's not always that easy to deal enough damage in time. If you're interested, here's my experience with meganobz in trukks at a recent tourney. They faced 2 ravenwings, drop cent spam, renegades with a baneblade and eldar with scatlasers, WK and shooty Imp knight.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/713174.page

In larger games i run spare trukks of naked boyz, min tankbustas and just a regular obsec one from boyz to pick them up when the trukk is down and to add to msu scoring, screeting and tankshocking.

This is getting funny. Why would I ever just charge a Knight with all it's hull points. Does anyone really do that? The last one I face was down to 2 or 3 before close combat. It was destroyed easily.

 warhead01 wrote:
This is getting funny. Why would I ever just charge a Knight with all it's hull points. Does anyone really do that? The last one I face was down to 2 or 3 before close combat. It was destroyed easily.

I've seen a knight lose all 6hp to PK nobz in cc. Glorious.

 warhead01 wrote:
This is getting funny. Why would I ever just charge a Knight with all it's hull points. Does anyone really do that? The last one I face was down to 2 or 3 before close combat. It was destroyed easily.

yeah tankbustas and lootas can cause a lot of damage on knights, especially bustas with bomb squigs... 3x5 tankbustas with 3 bomb squigs each can hurt a knight very badly.

 Blackie wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
This is getting funny. Why would I ever just charge a Knight with all it's hull points. Does anyone really do that? The last one I face was down to 2 or 3 before close combat. It was destroyed easily.

yeah tankbustas and lootas can cause a lot of damage on knights, especially bustas with bomb squigs... 3x5 tankbustas with 3 bomb squigs each can hurt a knight very badly.

They are such nasty things! I've lost a shadowsword on full hull points to a charge of tank bustas, my opponant rolled so lucky with the explodes! results.

 Drasius wrote:
A PK nob has 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge. WS4 means half hit, glancing on 5's (4's on the charge), penning on 6's (5's on the charge) with 1/6th of each pen doing an extra d3 damage. That's 0.5833 HP normally or 1.222 HP on the charge.

A knight has 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge plus an impact hit, then d3 stomps at I1 that are str6 ap4 (ie, killing on 2's). If you're taking MSU orks, you're getting your sh*t pushed in. Even worse if the knight has gone through terrain or has a gauntlet since then he can stomp first to remove boys and then attack with the D-weapon to remove the nob as well.

The only thing that a knight is really afraid of are MAN's missiles (now that tank bustas are 1 bomb per unit) since they have (or at least should have) at least 1 pair of kill saws per 3 MAN's which are 5 attacks on the charge resulting in 3.055 HP or 2.148 HP on a round where he didn't charge. On average, the knight will drop both the claw nobs, but the kill saw nob will do some serious hurt before he goes down in round 2.

Technically a warboss with klaw will also cause a knight issues since he's str10, but that's not usually what the boss is doing.

Knights are a serious problem for orks, plus, on top of all of this, knights cause fear and orks are one of the very few races that actually give a crap about fear (unless you're running Ghazzy) and that tanks your damage output to almost nothing. Considering pretty much all orks are ld 7 or 8, this is quite the issue.

All this is just CC too and makes no mention of the various ranged weapons a knight is capable of wielding.

Edit: Forgot furious charge, numbers fixed now

Bullyboy Manz have +1 ws in addition to s9. 2+ save keeps them alive vs knight ap 4, killsaws for +1 a and armourbane. You could get 9 killsaw mans for the cost of a knight and they would certainly wreck it many times over. They're also fearless. Every competitive ork list takes bullyboyz, which is 15 Manx minimum. (3x5) No, Knights are not really a problem for orks. In contrast there's nothing worth shooting for the knight. A Gatling cannon shooting up. 100 point squad of orks in a trukk? A 54 point warbike unit? A competitive ork list, if it has trukks, will have at least 8 of the suckers, the manz armour save will keep them alive in the trukk til even if it explodes. And there's enough to share. Of course I'm gonna dump the 65 point busta squad so the mans can grab their trukk.

Also, zhad can move 36" per turn and is s10 ap 2 at i4 and is perfectly capable of finishing off a knight weakened by rokkits and lootas by himself before it can stomp. He's a third of the cost of the knight.

E:And ya, the warlord would be going after the knight. In itc if you roll with a knight your opponent gets +1 to seize and he gets to roll on the escalation warlord traits which gives him all sorts of insane bonuses vs the Titan.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
This is getting funny. Why would I ever just charge a Knight with all it's hull points. Does anyone really do that? The last one I face was down to 2 or 3 before close combat. It was destroyed easily.

yeah tankbustas and lootas can cause a lot of damage on knights, especially bustas with bomb squigs... 3x5 tankbustas with 3 bomb squigs each can hurt a knight very badly.

They are such nasty things! I've lost a shadowsword on full hull points to a charge of tank bustas, my opponant rolled so lucky with the explodes! results.

He can't get more than one with meltabombs after the faq. Though, he could run a nob with a bit cheaper pk that also gets tankhunting.

345 pts of min tankbustas with bomb squigs and trukks means 18 s8 shots, 9 of them hitting on 2s, 15 with tankhunter. An average of 9-10 hits. Combined with an assault with a unit that has one pk at least or shooting from lootas and the knight is dead. Sure it can cause damage in its shooting phase but honestly there are a lot of other things that we, orks, suffer extremely more than a single imperial knight. A list with 4 is a nightmare to deal with, but honestly everyone gets bored facing a list of full IK, who's gonna play against those lists?

The grenade FAQ made killsaws the best cc anti armour in the game.

I just put a few KMK's at it. Maybe a 5 strong loota squad.
It just seems really weird to me the direction these threads go.

My friend until last year some time played chaos Space marines for like 15 years. He was using full units of cultists in his armies. depending on the size of the game up to 4 full units.
But hey, cultist suck.
I use Ork Boys as the bulk of my list I own 8 full mobs of slugga boys. and maybe that many shoota boys...( Maybe really only 150 shoota boys.)
No other units in my armies really serve me as well. I don't care for trukks unless we're playing a large point game maybe 5K or more then they can put in some actual work.
I build my lists either to use the Warbosses WAAAGH, rolling for the one to gain fearless and WAAAGH every turn or use Da finking Kap for two warlord traits. I had plenty of good games with out bringing my Warboss. He's not really that important. (Just don't tell him I said that...)
I really like the green tide but have been trying to push armies that resemble my old lists from 2 or 3 editions ago.
But the OP is right, from what I have found Orks do well when you use the games rules. there's a lot in there. A multi assault where the nob contacts a transport and the boys hit the unit. every pin is two wounds. 3 or 4 hit's maybe 2 pins and a glance. (5 wounds) Heck, that's a situation my Green tide would love to be in. half of the enemy will try to flee after we beat up their transports. Now, just box um in and keep them close to their own board edge... ( That would be one for the books!)

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Also considering the fact that the latest ITC lists have come out and Ork's aren't anywhere near placed highly to the top.. yeah.

What does this suppose to mean? It doesn't mean at all that Orks are bad. It just means people need the "easy" or "easier" button to play with.

Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...

One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.

morgoth wrote:
Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...

One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.

Just curious, have a small unbuilt collection of orks (never got around to it yet), just curious how much is that 15+ Trukks going to cost? Sounds awfully expensive.

Davor wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...

One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.

Just curious, have a small unbuilt collection of orks (never got around to it yet), just curious how much is that 15+ Trukks going to cost? Sounds awfully expensive.

Your looking at the region of just over 1500pts with PK nobz, which really isn't that much when you consider that is 165 models all with transports.

Horde armies are always retardedly expensive...

You could field 1850 points of footslogging AM or 400 Termagants + a bunch of zoeys for example ... I wonder how much that would cost.

One sure thing, it would obliterate many top armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrhappyface wrote:
Your looking at the region of just over 1500pts with PK nobz, which really isn't that much when you consider that is 165 models.

He means in real money.

morgoth wrote:
Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...

One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.

I don't know the new CSM but till one year ago they really sucked, also AM and tyranids (regardless of their lists) are not better than DE, and i would say also BA and sisters. With the supplement DE are improved a lot, still a very difficult army to play efficiently but not a bottom tier. Orks are very similar to DE for many features: they're MSU centered, extremely fast, fragile, full of vehicles and bikes, good saturation but nothing really devastating in the shooting phase, no psychic phase, and also assalut focused as reavers, talos and grotesques are the best DE units and orks perform well due to their pks spam.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Davor wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...

One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.

Just curious, have a small unbuilt collection of orks (never got around to it yet), just curious how much is that 15+ Trukks going to cost? Sounds awfully expensive.

Your looking at the region of just over 1500pts with PK nobz, which really isn't that much when you consider that is 165 models all with transports.

Sorry, by cost I ment money value.

Davor wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...

One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.

Just curious, have a small unbuilt collection of orks (never got around to it yet), just curious how much is that 15+ Trukks going to cost? Sounds awfully expensive.

typically 10-12 trukks can be easily fielded in 1850 points games, but if you don't take mek gunz or bikers 15 trukks can be fielded in 1850-2000 points games. Probably he uses to play at 2500 format but if you go trukk spam you can easily deploy a huge amount of vehicles without spending a lot of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Davor wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Orks are awesome and have lists that can wreck a lot of stuff...
Being able to bring 15+ trukks full of boyz is huge...

One thing though, I don't think Dark Eldar are nearly as good as CSM or AM. They're really the worst unless you count Tyranid without flyrant as a codex.

Just curious, have a small unbuilt collection of orks (never got around to it yet), just curious how much is that 15+ Trukks going to cost? Sounds awfully expensive.

Your looking at the region of just over 1500pts with PK nobz, which really isn't that much when you consider that is 165 models all with transports.

Sorry, by cost I ment money value.

trukks can be scratch built quite easily, i made 8 of them (actually three are BWs but i use them as trukks if i need to) with just the equivalent of 20 US dollars in plasticard and toy wheels.