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blaktoof wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Orks aren't competitive because ompetitive events play with a time limit that prevents turns four through six, or five and six regularly. Most ork games involve making it to turn two to three and time is at the 30 minute mark. Which is not a finished game of 40k.

We can still pull off some quick lists that perform ok. FW stompas with bikers, bully boyz. Even trukkboyz can be played relatively quickly but they're not a very strong list foundation nowadays. Ok for tourneys with a stronger emphasis on scoring.

I agree there are some okay tournament lists, but tournaments are a poor reflection of 40k as some armies have many builds which rely on weathering casualties the first few turns to swamp the enemy turns 4-6. Which is how the rules of 40k intended it to be played. Removing those turns from the game changes the viability of certain armies greatly, one of those is Orks.

I've never played in a tournament. Do they not have turn timers?

They usually have a time limit on game length of 2 to 2.5 hours. Depending on who/what you are playing/against most games end at turn 2-4.

I really must agree with the OP on Flash Gitz here. Most players dump on them because they require a transport and their gun is short ranged, but those things don't make them worthless. I remember in 5th edition you would've been laughed at for taking any unit without a transport. I've had great success putting them in a BW with KFF support and using them for board control. It's a 50" bubble that bikers, MEQ's, and TEQ's don't like at all since Snazzguns have a 33-50% chance to ignore their armor. Underrated unit for sure.

 Marmatag wrote:


I've never played in a tournament. Do they not have turn timers?

Nope they have game timers. So any move shoot move style army is free to waste all the time doing semi useless assault moves denying you the majority of assaults that you probably could have made in the last few turns. ; )

v0iddrgn wrote:
I really must agree with the OP on Flash Gitz here. Most players dump on them because they require a transport and their gun is short ranged, but those things don't make them worthless. I remember in 5th edition you would've been laughed at for taking any unit without a transport. I've had great success putting them in a BW with KFF support and using them for board control. It's a 50" bubble that bikers, MEQ's, and TEQ's don't like at all since Snazzguns have a 33-50% chance to ignore their armor. Underrated unit for sure.

I disagree, they're not underrated at all, they cost a huge amount of points, tankbustas and bikes can cause more damage for the same points. 5 of them cost 110 points, 9 tankbustas are 117. Also 5 gitz and a BW are 230 points, for just 220 you can field 10 bikes including a nob with boss pole and pk and they would cause many more wounds that 5 flash gitz, being also more efficient in close combat. Flash gitz could be ok (but i wouldn't take them either) if their AP would be resolved with a D3, not a D6.

the only saving grace orks have right now is they can counter meta. ork boys are over costed, and whoever at GW decided cybork body needed to be changed to a fnp pain roll instead of a 5++ should be curb stomped (or just fired) . challenges really kill orks too oddly enough as the low I the nob usually hits last and as he can only ever have a 4+ marine sarg with a power sword or random hq guy makes him disappear. before the overprices power claw gets to go.

Yeah, but those Warbikers aren't going to shoot because they'll be turbo-boosting the whole time and they won't do equivalent CC damage for their points. Again, I look at Flash Gitz as a board control unit. Bikers just want to race around and grab objectives.

*Edit I meant warbikers, damn autocorrect.

How can Flash Gitz be a board control unit if literally no army fears being shot at by them?

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


I've never played in a tournament. Do they not have turn timers?

Nope they have game timers. So any move shoot move style army is free to waste all the time doing semi useless assault moves denying you the majority of assaults that you probably could have made in the last few turns. ; )

People are the worst, stalling you out is such an ugly tactic. Games should either:

1. have turn timers, which is totally reasonable. (pause when opponent is rolling)
2. have no time limit, and a set number of turns. (much worse still exploitable)

What's to stop your opponent from getting a 1 point lead and then just bursting into dance and ignoring the game for the next 2 hours?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How can Flash Gitz be a board control unit if literally no army fears being shot at by them?

Don't be thick, I have already stated above what types of units they threaten. I've played against bikestar wielding opponent's who had to alter their strategy after a turn of being shot up by my Gitz. I'm speaking from experience because I am not afraid to try something just because some mathhammer spouting guy on the internet said they were no good.

v0iddrgn wrote:
Yeah, but those Warbikers aren't going to shoot because they'll be turbo-boosting the whole time and they won't do equivalent CC damage for their points. Again, I look at Flash Gitz as a board control unit. Bikers just want to race around and grab objectives.

*Edit I meant warbikers, damn autocorrect.

Well ork bikers turbo boost only in turn one, then shoot and assault if they need to. Flash gitz don't always shoot in turn one as they have the same range than bikers so their transport usually turbo boosts too. But even if they shoot a single round of flash gitz shooting at bs2 isn't scary. Against competitive lists they're useless. But you can have fun with them, as well as many ork units that are not really great. Dakkajets, burnas, stormboyz, kommandos and gorkanauts for example can perform sometimes, but there are many units that are more reliable.

v0iddrgn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How can Flash Gitz be a board control unit if literally no army fears being shot at by them?

Don't be thick, I have already stated above what types of units they threaten. I've played against bikestar wielding opponent's who had to alter their strategy after a turn of being shot up by my Gitz. I'm speaking from experience because I am not afraid to try something just because some mathhammer spouting guy on the internet said they were no good.

Except they can't threaten those units because of unreliability with the AP...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How can Flash Gitz be a board control unit if literally no army fears being shot at by them?

Don't be thick, I have already stated above what types of units they threaten. I've played against bikestar wielding opponent's who had to alter their strategy after a turn of being shot up by my Gitz. I'm speaking from experience because I am not afraid to try something just because some mathhammer spouting guy on the internet said they were no good.

Except they can't threaten those units because of unreliability with the AP...

With their ability to get BS3 (especially in using them in the manner I specified) their high rate of fire still give units like MEQ's and TEQ's problems.

*Edit* Besides if you don't like at least a little randomness thenOrks are definitely not for you.

v0iddrgn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How can Flash Gitz be a board control unit if literally no army fears being shot at by them?

Don't be thick, I have already stated above what types of units they threaten. I've played against bikestar wielding opponent's who had to alter their strategy after a turn of being shot up by my Gitz. I'm speaking from experience because I am not afraid to try something just because some mathhammer spouting guy on the internet said they were no good.

Except they can't threaten those units because of unreliability with the AP...

With their ability to get BS3 (especially in using them in the manner I specified) their high rate of fire still give units like MEQ's and TEQ's problems.

*Edit* Besides if you don't like at least a little randomness thenOrks are definitely not for you.

You mean the BS3 they have to stand still for? On a unit that really shouldn't be standing still?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How can Flash Gitz be a board control unit if literally no army fears being shot at by them?

Don't be thick, I have already stated above what types of units they threaten. I've played against bikestar wielding opponent's who had to alter their strategy after a turn of being shot up by my Gitz. I'm speaking from experience because I am not afraid to try something just because some mathhammer spouting guy on the internet said they were no good.

Except they can't threaten those units because of unreliability with the AP...

With their ability to get BS3 (especially in using them in the manner I specified) their high rate of fire still give units like MEQ's and TEQ's problems.

*Edit* Besides if you don't like at least a little randomness thenOrks are definitely not for you.

You mean the BS3 they have to stand still for? On a unit that really shouldn't be standing still?

That's part of the problem. If you move then you lose effectiveness, but their threat range if they don't move isn't good enough.

v0iddrgn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How can Flash Gitz be a board control unit if literally no army fears being shot at by them?

Don't be thick, I have already stated above what types of units they threaten. I've played against bikestar wielding opponent's who had to alter their strategy after a turn of being shot up by my Gitz. I'm speaking from experience because I am not afraid to try something just because some mathhammer spouting guy on the internet said they were no good.

Except they can't threaten those units because of unreliability with the AP...

With their ability to get BS3 (especially in using them in the manner I specified) their high rate of fire still give units like MEQ's and TEQ's problems.

*Edit* Besides if you don't like at least a little randomness thenOrks are definitely not for you.

TEQ's? The problem with such is that you are standing still in order to deal with them, and that randomness is hoping for a 1 or 2.. That they still have a 5++, 4++, or 3++ for depending on Terminator.

High rate of fire. TEQ's don't like that. Isn't that what all these Space Marine players complain about? The best part is Flash Gitz don't sacrifice that high rate of fire when they roll up those 1's and 2's, so yeah, TEQ's.

v0iddrgn wrote:
High rate of fire. TEQ's don't like that. Isn't that what all these Space Marine players complain about? The best part is Flash Gitz don't sacrifice that high rate of fire when they roll up those 1's and 2's, so yeah, TEQ's.

It is three shots at BS2. That's not a high rate of fire...

Bikes, lobbas, tankustas (especially with bomb squigs) and lootas, maybe KMK too, can cause many more wounds than flash gitz considering the same amount of points. Their randomness is a huge weakeness as if they can't ignore the armor they don't repay you. Lootas are also a bit random but a single volley of their shots can still be good. I prefer fixed strenght and ap but random number of shots than the opposite so you can shoot to an appropriate target. I love conversions and i made my own flash gitz just for fun but i typically never take them. They may find a room in the blitz brigade as they can get in range thanks to the scout move in order to fire with bs3 turn 1, otherwise heavy support slots are extremely precious, you want many other things before flash gitz.

Every time i run flash gitz they tend to fail with their shooting and just stomp stuff to death in mellee. And i wonder, why don't i just take regular nobz with more attacks and 4+ armor for cheaper. And than i take regular nobz and they end up being overpriced, underpowerclawed and very fragile. And i wonder, why don't i take meganobz? And than i take meganobz and they're doing good.

v0iddrgn wrote:
High rate of fire. TEQ's don't like that. Isn't that what all these Space Marine players complain about? The best part is Flash Gitz don't sacrifice that high rate of fire when they roll up those 1's and 2's, so yeah, TEQ's.

As said, three shots at BS2. I've seen them successfully roll a 1.. Just to plink off the invulnerable save anyways, the problem is they don't bring much. You're bringing BS2 with 3 shots with a 2/3rd chance of whiffing AP, and at that point a squad of shoota boyz is more effective.

Flash Gits vs Marines

* BS2 vs T4 3+ AP[4/5/6] = 1.11 unsaved wounds (BS3 = 1.66)
* BS2 vs T4 3+ AP[1/2/3] = 3.33 unsaved wounds (BS3 = 5)
* BS2 vs T4 2+/5++ AP[3/4/5/6] = 0.55 unsaved wounds (BS3 = 0.833)
* BS2 vs T4 2+/5++ AP[1/2] = 2.22 unsaved wounds (BS3 = 3.33)

On average (which is a difficult thing to talk about for Flash Gitz given how all or nothing they are), that's 2.22 dead marines if you move, 3.33 dead marines if you scouted (discounting cover saves) or 1.11 dead termies if you move, 1.66 if you didn't (which goes down to 0.74 dead hammernators or 1.11 dead hammernators if you didn't move)

They do alright against marines out in the open half the time, but that's a pretty poor role. The fact that they're T4 multiwound models with a 6+ save means that a battlewagon is almost mandatory, doubling their cost. You know what Flash Gitz remind me of at 22 ppm, passable against marines out in the open and not much else while desperately needing a transport to be effective? Thousand Sons. Except for 1 more point per model, the Sons have a 3+/4++ and a psycher with a force weapon for a sargent. And they're terrible. DOn't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they're really that comparable, just that both of them are expensive units that don't do the one job they're meant to. I just don't see how anyone can defend Gitz (beyond their models, which I absolutely love). It's also a shame that their formations is also basically unusable because they don't fit in a transport and rolling that many master crafted 3 shot weapons would be a massive pain. That and it's 550 points.

If Gitz work for you, awesome, I'm glad that someone has a chance to put some awesome models on the table and achieve something except eating a bunch of ap6 or higher ignores cover shots (why, hello thunderfire cannon), but they're not the sort of thing that you recommend to anyone looking for a way to start or expand orks, or just anyone at all really.

 koooaei wrote:
Every time i run flash gitz they tend to fail with their shooting and just stomp stuff to death in mellee. And i wonder, why don't i just take regular nobz with more attacks and 4+ armor for cheaper. And than i take regular nobz and they end up being overpriced, underpowerclawed and very fragile. And i wonder, why don't i take meganobz? And than i take meganobz and they're doing good.

This kind of sums it up

Time and again at the end of a match I ask myself "Why did I even try to shoot?" "Why do I ever bring shootas?" "Why don't I have more Power Klaws?" "These Lootas suck" "My tankbustas can't shoot anything."

Kinda want Flash Gitz to get BS3 normally, with maybe a chance of BS4.

I know GW cringes at the thought nowadays, but Flash Gitz used to be primarily Bad Moonz and their leader under Ghazghull was BS4 naturally!

Kinda one of them reasons they weren't considered as Orky as others, they knew how to aim.

I run Flash Gitz all the time in my Blitz Brigades and even pull them out in non Blitz lists. Honestly the Gitz have been quite effective for me because while they never earn their points in 1 turn, they tend to linger on the battlefield constantly picking off models (great at forcing bikes to jink despite RNG AP) and when they pull agro is when they roll a good AP result and melt a unit of MEQs/TEQs. Also I invest in a Killkannon on their transport so that S7 AP3 large blast is firing away while the Gitz dakka at other targets while sitting safe in their Battlewagon bunker (parked midfield in terrain for some decent saves).

Now are Gitz the end all/be all unit in the game? Not by a country mile but do they function as a unit? With the right list and surrounded by other units they do work. Important to note that they don't need other units to make them function so much as just needing other units to get into the enemy's face (standard Ork strategy so not hard to do) which draws fire away from the Gitz and buys them time to do their thing over the course of the game. Honestly I find shoota boyz far more disappointing than the Gitz because shootas tend to plink off T5 or high armor while the Gitz have the potential to melt good armor and have higher base strength to hurt higher toughness. Killing/forcing jinking from Space Marine Bikes is their bread and butter which just so happens to be quite popular these days.

 Vankraken wrote:
I run Flash Gitz all the time in my Blitz Brigades and even pull them out in non Blitz lists. Honestly the Gitz have been quite effective for me because while they never earn their points in 1 turn, they tend to linger on the battlefield constantly picking off models (great at forcing bikes to jink despite RNG AP) and when they pull agro is when they roll a good AP result and melt a unit of MEQs/TEQs. Also I invest in a Killkannon on their transport so that S7 AP3 large blast is firing away while the Gitz dakka at other targets while sitting safe in their Battlewagon bunker (parked midfield in terrain for some decent saves).

Now are Gitz the end all/be all unit in the game? Not by a country mile but do they function as a unit? With the right list and surrounded by other units they do work. Important to note that they don't need other units to make them function so much as just needing other units to get into the enemy's face (standard Ork strategy so not hard to do) which draws fire away from the Gitz and buys them time to do their thing over the course of the game. Honestly I find shoota boyz far more disappointing than the Gitz because shootas tend to plink off T5 or high armor while the Gitz have the potential to melt good armor and have higher base strength to hurt higher toughness. Killing/forcing jinking from Space Marine Bikes is their bread and butter which just so happens to be quite popular these days.

^This!

 Drasius wrote:
It's also a shame that their formations is also basically unusable because they don't fit in a transport and rolling that many master crafted 3 shot weapons would be a massive pain. That and it's 550 points.
.

At minimum Kaptin Badrukk's Flash Gitz, when combined into one unit, must be at least 21 models so yes they can't fit in a battlewagon, but they could fit in a Skullhamma or a Kustom Battlefortress though (they each can take 30 models) and still have room for kff big meks and other IC,

Trump is president and now we have people trying to defend Flash Gitz?
This is gonna be a tough year.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Trump is president and now we have people trying to defend Flash Gitz?
This is gonna be a tough year.

Someone cue the violins.

Flash Gitz have a 1/3rd chance to have AP to hurt Terminators, a 1/2 Chance to have AP to hurt Marines and nothing else really matters.


10 Gitz in a BW with a KillKannon, Ram and 2 rokkitz = 375pts For that price you get 30 BS2 S5 APD6 shots a Single S7 AP3 Pie plate and 2 S8 AP3 Rokkitz (BS2)

Against Marines in the open.

30 shots, BS2 = 10 hits, S5 Vs T4 = about 7 wounds. 1/2 the time that will result in 7 Dead Marines the other half that will be 2 dead Marines. The Kill Kannon fires and is useless but lets say it does something ok? 1/3rd chance to hit, and if it misses it only has BS2 so anything higher then a 6 to scatter usually means a miss. 2 rokkitz = 2/3rd chance to get a single hit....

so nice, you killed a bunch of MEQs, Put them in 4+ cover though and those 7 dead from shooting just went to 3-4. I won't calculate BS3 because you have to stay stationary for that and with Range 24 on everything thats hard to do. And since they are in a giant open topped vehicle with massive sides with only AV12 its a big juicy target. 1 Drop pod with 3 Meltas has a GREAT chance to cause this thing to explode. 3 Melta shots = 2 hits, 2 Pens (on average) and thats +3 on the chart so it has 2 50% shots to cause an explosion. When it does explode thats 10 Nobz taking S4 hits so 5 wounds with 6+ armor means on average 4 unsaved wounds or 2 dead Flash Gitz. They have to roll Pinning and everything else like normal as well

So for the same amount of points your putting into that Gitz unit I can field 3 units of 4 Warbikers with a Nob W/PK. They can put out 45 S5 AP5 TL shots a turn which is on average 25 hits, against T4 = 16-17 Wounds which against 3+ = 5 dead Marines each turn. The best part? They actually have a better threat range then Flash Gitz because they can move 12 and still fire, they can Jink to stay alive and have T5 with 4+ armor standard. Ohh and I have 3 Powerklaws in their so I can actually hurt things that have good AV or T value.

Flash Gitz suck, im sorry they just do. Van's idea works only because of threat overload, but against tournament lists it will fail, investing 550pts (Naked) into Battlewagons with Boyz inside won't do you much good against the tournament net lists and other shenanigans.

I still hold that FlashGitz are one of the worst units in the codex. The only reason anyone has success with the is the SAME REASON why orks have success at all in most competitive games, they get massively under-estimated.