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FIrst off "Only fools believe that the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Personnally I get it, BUT THE 227th WILL NEVER FALTER! (basically my personaly regiemtn will still treat them like the xenos filith they are)

I prefer "The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend, but as long as they are around, they have more important things to shoot at".

CommanderRednaxela wrote:
FIrst off "Only fools believe that the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Personally I get it, BUT THE 227th WILL NEVER FALTER! (basically my personal regiment will still treat them like the xenos filth they are)

That's perfectly understandable, as a matter of fact its one of the things I want to see. A civil war in the Imperium between those who want to work with Xeno's and those who don't. I would imagine its divisive enough that just about every institution could be split, down to individual Astartes chapter's.

Point in case. My personal regiment's fluff has had some bad experiences with Necrons (about 230-something survivors) so they'd never be happy working with a Necron. However, they might be more accepting to a Eldar or Tau, who hasn't brutally murdered the feth out of them. It would also allow civil wars between the factions working with xeno's over which species are suitable for alliances.

Also, both of our forces are just guard regiments, so if we expressed these sentiments we'd probably be shot and have a suitably understanding fellow put in charge.

I've always worked by the Eldar take on alliances for most 40k stuff.

'The enemy of my enemy is my meatshield'

2nd ed grim fluff forever

All this new stuff is way too generic sci fi

The imperium is a xenophobic, distopian religious zealot empire that has backwards technology and is slowly and surely slipping into its own destruction.

He who allows the alien to live shares in the crime of its existence.

OP is forgetting the campaign supplement from well over a year ago called Shield of Baal.

In which the Blood Angles work with the Necrons to stop the Nids.

This is not the first, and will not be the last, time the Imperium of Man has worked with Xenos.

Roleplayer1 wrote:
2nd ed grim fluff forever

All this new stuff is way too generic sci fi

The imperium is a xenophobic, distopian religious zealot empire that has backwards technology and is slowly and surely slipping into its own destruction.

He who allows the alien to live shares in the crime of its existence.

This. The fact that 40k was, despite all the referencing and drawing from other IPs, something truly unique in the breadth of it's grimdarkness was what made me fall in love with it.

I don't want to read another 'LoTR...in spaaace' where the elves and humans sort of aren't sure about each other but eventually unite against the horrible evil orks and save the day. Boring.

I want to read about the vast interstellar empire of humanity not beign the shining beacon of hope you usually find, but being the single most brutal, dogmatic, xenophobic galactic civilisation in all of fiction. I want to read about space-elves that view humans as little more than cattle, or at best a meatshield to throw into the path of bullets that were intended for them.

I want to read about the empire of humanity fighting the evil forces of chaos (who, when you read a bit deeper, are no more evil than the 'good' guys). I want to read about them reaching out to the Eldar, and the Eldar weighing it up and deciding that it actually works out better for them if they let each side duke it out and then sweep in at the end and cull any survivors.

I want to read about nuance. A universe populated by grey areas between what's right and wrong. I want to read about something that actually feels realistic, rather than unrealistic black and white goodies and baddies.

Oh, and if anyone brings up the argument 'they're not stupid, if there's a greater threat they would totally team up' that's b*llocks based on real-world interactions.

The Israelites and the Palestinians have been fighting off and on for quite a few decades now. If suddenly Turkey starts invading Israel, and makes a couple of threatening gestures towards Palestine, do you think they're going to jump into bed with each other straight away? I severely doubt it. The animosity runs deep.

Lets make the example a bit more western shall we? Lets take Al Qaeda and the States. How readily do you think they'd be willing to unite against a common enemy? Even if they did, would you not think that they'd try and get one over on their hated enemy? Perhaps delay their forces slightly so that they would still emerge victorious, but the other side is

That's after a little over a decade of fighting. The IoM and the Eldar have been in conflict for over 10,000 years. In that context, the utter xenophobia and hatred is utterly expected.

 Lance845 wrote:
OP is forgetting the campaign supplement from well over a year ago called Shield of Baal.

In which the Blood Angles work with the Necrons to stop the Nids.

This is not the first, and will not be the last, time the Imperium of Man has worked with Xenos.

Oh god don't get me started on that abortion. One of the more pants-on-head stupid pieces of inter-species co-operation I've ever heard read.

I remember when I first read about the Necrons the fluff behind them filled me with so much dread. It was beautiful.

They were undead robots led by Lovecraftian star-gods from before even the Eldar remember, rising from the depths of pre-history to harvest the galaxy. Terrifying.

Now, we've got the same boring old 'lets build an empire!' narrative that every other race (save the Tyranids and Orks) have, except with metal space egyptians instead. Yawn.

I had a piece of headcanon that the Necrons couldn't even communicate with the younger races of the galaxy. Why on earth would a race from 60,000,000+ years ago have anything in common language-wise to the younger races. It'd be like a thought-to-be-extinct dinosaur rising from the depth of the earth...and being able to speak English. I know it's a sci-fi trope that the universe speaks English, but at least with the Eldar/Tau/Orks the IoM's been around them long enough to decrypt at least some of their language.

As for allying with the pathetic worms that are infesting the galaxy (as the Necrons would view humanity), I have no idea why they'd deem the Tyranids to be a mutual threat at all, let alone one that would necessitate alliance with aforementioned juvenile vampiric vertebrates.

You're an immortal, soul-less robot who no longer needs sustenance, warmth or even an atmosphere. For you, living on a barren rock would be functionally identical to living on a jungle planet. Except it would be easier to walk around on.

For the Necrons, Tyranids are something that happens to other people...

It smacks of someone desperately scrabbling around for a Deus Ex Machina/Shyamalan Twist unexpected ally to swoop in and save the day so our protagonists don't get eaten by space bugs. Ill-thought out.

Ok. I'll get off my soap-box now :S apologies for the rant!

Not really. The Imperium has always done short-term alliances with the more rational xenos against forces like Chaos and Tyranids.

And long term alliances with xenos that they can control, IE grease-monkies.

In one of the caphias cain novels he attends a war council between Imperial leaders and a water caste envoy. The local Imperial leaders can tell they can't win against the tau and would just be wasting resources. Also there's a more important tyrannid threat they come together over.

DorianGray wrote:
If the Tau sends you a diplomatic envoy you kill it.

If the humans of the imperium were that brainwashed, there wouldn't be any gue'vesa.

Edit: I'm not sure about the seriousness of the OP. Getting a Poe's Law feeling.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
...Oh, and if anyone brings up the argument 'they're not stupid, if there's a greater threat they would totally team up' that's b*llocks based on real-world interactions...

It isn't the stupidest argument in the world, but it tends to get treated as such. When presented with a greater immediate threat various factions in the game may, or have, or do 'team up', but 'team up' tends to mean 'not shoot each other over the short term', not 'offer trust, share command structure, have tea, and discover the other side is actually pretty cool'. See the Winter Assault campaign (featuring short-term teeth-clenched cooperation between a Chaos Lord and an Ork Warboss facing off against an equally-strained team-up between a Farseer and a Guard General, both of which end in betrayal so one faction can grab the final objective) for a good illustration of what 'teaming up against a common threat' actually looks like in the 40k setting.

 Melissia wrote:
Not really. The Imperium has always done short-term alliances with the more rational xenos against forces like Chaos and Tyranids.

And long term alliances with xenos that they can control, IE grease-monkies.

Agreed on the short-term alliances thing, but that's not what this feels like. 'Step into a new dawn, if you're brave enough' or whatever the quote is feels suspiciously like a Grand Alliance forming which I would not be happy about.

Perfectly happy with Eldar/Tau and the Mon'Keigh not killing each other for the moment, but then pushing one another under a bus at the earliest opportunity.

Necrons just strained my suspension of disbelief as I still cannot fathom a reasonable explanation why the Necrons would give two hoots what happens to some Blood Angels

Also, I think the techy-orangutans get a pass because they're not exactly an intelligent species. They're more like animals...that just so happen to be able to make Lascannons out of random bits and pieces. It's less an alliance, more Grox with Digital Weapons. That's my understanding anyway, as the IoM has been shown to casually annihilate other primitive species they deem to be a threat rather than enslaving them (eg. what they were going to do to the Tau).

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
In one of the caphias cain novels he attends a war council between Imperial leaders and a water caste envoy. The local Imperial leaders can tell they can't win against the tau and would just be wasting resources. Also there's a more important tyrannid threat they come together over.

Ciaphas Cain is the one with the backflipping Terminators and Slaanesh-worshipping Eldar isn't it?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
...Oh, and if anyone brings up the argument 'they're not stupid, if there's a greater threat they would totally team up' that's b*llocks based on real-world interactions...

It isn't the stupidest argument in the world, but it tends to get treated as such. When presented with a greater immediate threat various factions in the game may, or have, or do 'team up', but 'team up' tends to mean 'not shoot each other over the short term', not 'offer trust, share command structure, have tea, and discover the other side is actually pretty cool'. See the Winter Assault campaign (featuring short-term teeth-clenched cooperation between a Chaos Lord and an Ork Warboss facing off against an equally-strained team-up between a Farseer and a Guard General, both of which end in betrayal so one faction can grab the final objective) for a good illustration of what 'teaming up against a common threat' actually looks like in the 40k setting.

Very good points I just feel like the whole 'Grand Alliance' direction would be a mistake if they lump the Eldar in with the IoM against Chaos/Orks/Nids whatever. It makes the eldar feel too much like the 'good' guys, rather than the xenophobic, racist, supremacist, arrogant, genocidal aliens they actually are

I must play Winter Assault now that you've mentioned that as that sounds like exactly what I was imagining. Not 'welcoming the xenocidal Templars into the webway to forge a new alliance of man and elfeldar'

I'll reserve judgement until the book comes out. so much potential to get it absolutely right, but so much risk of making it terrible...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Necrons just strained my suspension of disbelief as I still cannot fathom a reasonable explanation why the Necrons would give two hoots what happens to some Blood Angels

It's not so much that the Necrons care about the Blood Angels than they care about the Tyranids eating everything.

Ciaphas Cain is the one with the backflipping Terminators and Slaanesh-worshipping Eldar isn't it?

I think that's C. S. Goto's Dawn of War books.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Necrons just strained my suspension of disbelief as I still cannot fathom a reasonable explanation why the Necrons would give two hoots what happens to some Blood Angels

It's not so much that the Necrons care about the Blood Angels than they care about the Tyranids eating everything.

Ciaphas Cain is the one with the backflipping Terminators and Slaanesh-worshipping Eldar isn't it?

I think that's C. S. Goto's Dawn of War books.

Ah have I got that wrong? If so I shall withdraw my hate of the Ciaphas Cain books! Mistreated all these years

As for the Necrons and Tyranids, I could really do with some help with suspending my disbelief. I put myself into the shoes of an undead space robot and for the life of me I can't think why I would give a flying monkeys what happens to the squishy organics in the rest of the galaxy.

If the Tyranids wipe all organic life from this galaxy, my average day as an undead space robot doesn't change in the slightest. Except for the fact that those pesky eldar aren't around to try and blow me up.

I can buy the motivations of every other faction in the entire 40k universe, but I just cannot get on board with Newcrons.

Now, if there was something in the Necron fluff about them needing to harvest organics to power their tomb-worlds or something, I could buy them fighting the Tyranids as they're trying to mess with their livestock. But 'protecting the natural beauty of the galaxy' or whatever reason it is that they don't want the Tyranids to eat everything seems like a terrible attempt at trying to make Necrons into a grey-area faction, when what really should have been emphasised is the tragedy of their situation.

If there was something in the Necron fluff about the fact that they cannot make any new Necrons (as presumably they needed Necrontyr to biotransfer), so their only hope for survival is to scour the universe for any remaining possibility of resurrecting their race, I could buy them fighting the Tyranids, as if they eat everything that's their final hope gone.

But no. They went for 'egyptian space-gardeners'.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
...Oh, and if anyone brings up the argument 'they're not stupid, if there's a greater threat they would totally team up' that's b*llocks based on real-world interactions...

It isn't the stupidest argument in the world, but it tends to get treated as such. When presented with a greater immediate threat various factions in the game may, or have, or do 'team up', but 'team up' tends to mean 'not shoot each other over the short term', not 'offer trust, share command structure, have tea, and discover the other side is actually pretty cool'. See the Winter Assault campaign (featuring short-term teeth-clenched cooperation between a Chaos Lord and an Ork Warboss facing off against an equally-strained team-up between a Farseer and a Guard General, both of which end in betrayal so one faction can grab the final objective) for a good illustration of what 'teaming up against a common threat' actually looks like in the 40k setting.

Very good points I just feel like the whole 'Grand Alliance' direction would be a mistake if they lump the Eldar in with the IoM against Chaos/Orks/Nids whatever. It makes the eldar feel too much like the 'good' guys, rather than the xenophobic, racist, supremacist, arrogant, genocidal aliens they actually are

I must play Winter Assault now that you've mentioned that as that sounds like exactly what I was imagining. Not 'welcoming the xenocidal Templars into the webway to forge a new alliance of man and elfeldar'

I'll reserve judgement until the book comes out. so much potential to get it absolutely right, but so much risk of making it terrible...

There are no 'good guys'. Everyone in this setting is a xenophobic, racist, supremacist, arrogant, genocidal alien. Except the IoM/Chaos, they're xenophobic, racist, supremacist, arrogant, genocidal humans.

Alternately everyone's the 'good guys'. The Tyranids are just hungry. The Eldar are throwing barely-sentient animals to the wolves in a desperate attempt to keep themselves alive. The forces of Chaos are rebelling against an oppressive tyrant in an effort to expose the truth of the galaxy.

That's one of the great strengths of the setting. Everyone has a reasonably well-structured moral framework in which they're the 'good guys' forced to horrible extremes by circumstances and their terrifyingly evil foes, and it sort of works if you try and put yourself in their shoes.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Ciaphas Cain is the one with the backflipping Terminators and Slaanesh-worshipping Eldar isn't it?

Caithas Cain is the one with the best character in 40k. Hands down not up for debate. He's even better than Creed.

Hi, I'm old.

As a result, I've been kicking around since Rogue Trader, and while I'm no expert, I do remember a lot of things. Like:

Epic Space Marine - Eldar and Imperial forces fight Chaos renegades together. The Eldar clarify they do not fight for the Emperor, only against Horus.

2nd edition 40k - The Ork "Blood Axe" clan frequently hires themselves out as mercenaries to the Imperial Guard, and consequently can take looted Imperial vehicles.

4th edition (I think) - Kroot stand alone codex, allows Imperial Guard armies to take Kroot mercenaries.

3rd edition - Gav Thorpe's 3rd ed Eldar codex specifically attempts to make the Eldar more arrogant and cruel, and up to that point they had been depicted allying with the Imperium too often, and he was afraid they were being perceived as "good guys." He also commits the unspeakable crime of coining the term "mon-keigh."

Titan (the comic book) Vivaporius - A Warlord titan and an assembly of Eldar titans team up to fight the Tyranid. In particular, a Tyranid infested Warlord titan which is under the control of the Hive mind, making a good argument for Tyranid being allowed to take Imperial Knight allies.

5th Edition - Blood Angels team up with Necrons

Shield of Ba'al - Blood angels keep teaming up with Necrons.


It goes on and on like this, with countless small fluff examples over the years, especially with Inquisitors working with just about anyone. The foundation all of this sits upon, is that the Imperium, and especially it's more conservative, intolerant elements, really are entirely anti-Xeno. (And everything we see, says they are justified in this position) Within the Imperium, however, are countless parties with varying levels of desperation. And, often, the enemy of my enemy, is my temporary ally.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


There are no 'good guys'. Everyone in this setting is a xenophobic, racist, supremacist, arrogant, genocidal alien. Except the IoM/Chaos, they're xenophobic, racist, supremacist, arrogant, genocidal humans.

Alternately everyone's the 'good guys'. The Tyranids are just hungry. The Eldar are throwing barely-sentient animals to the wolves in a desperate attempt to keep themselves alive. The forces of Chaos are rebelling against an oppressive tyrant in an effort to expose the truth of the galaxy.

That's one of the great strengths of the setting. Everyone has a reasonably well-structured moral framework in which they're the 'good guys' forced to horrible extremes by circumstances and their terrifyingly evil foes, and it sort of works if you try and put yourself in their shoes.

Yeah that's something that I treasure in the 40k universe as something that's unique among any IP I've come across before (alongside the scope for your own creativity to become a part of the universe itself).

Every single faction is nuanced way beyond the usual convention of good and evil (even if it is done hamfistedly like the Newcrons).

Oggthrok wrote:
Hi, I'm old.

As a result, I've been kicking around since Rogue Trader, and while I'm no expert, I do remember a lot of things. Like:

Epic Space Marine - Eldar and Imperial forces fight Chaos renegades together. The Eldar clarify they do not fight for the Emperor, only against Horus.

2nd edition 40k - The Ork "Blood Axe" clan frequently hires themselves out as mercenaries to the Imperial Guard, and consequently can take looted Imperial vehicles.

4th edition (I think) - Kroot stand alone codex, allows Imperial Guard armies to take Kroot mercenaries.

3rd edition - Gav Thorpe's 3rd ed Eldar codex specifically attempts to make the Eldar more arrogant and cruel, and up to that point they had been depicted allying with the Imperium too often, and he was afraid they were being perceived as "good guys." He also commits the unspeakable crime of coining the term "mon-keigh."

Titan (the comic book) Vivaporius - A Warlord titan and an assembly of Eldar titans team up to fight the Tyranid. In particular, a Tyranid infested Warlord titan which is under the control of the Hive mind, making a good argument for Tyranid being allowed to take Imperial Knight allies.

5th Edition - Blood Angels team up with Necrons

Shield of Ba'al - Blood angels keep teaming up with Necrons.

It goes on and on like this, with countless small fluff examples over the years, especially with Inquisitors working with just about anyone. The foundation all of this sits upon, is that the Imperium, and especially it's more conservative, intolerant elements, really are entirely anti-Xeno. (And everything we see, says they are justified in this position) Within the Imperium, however, are countless parties with varying levels of desperation. And, often, the enemy of my enemy, is my temporary ally.

Yeah it's exactly Gav Thorpe's concerns that I echo. So many people think of eldar as 'prissy good-guy space elves', in part I think because of the sheer number of times they've been used as Deus Ex Machina devices to save the protagonists of an Imperial novel.

At best, it's a lazy plot-device that's been overused at this point. At worst it's severely misrepresentative of what the Eldar of 40k are supposed to be.

Perhaps I just love Gav Thorpe's vision for the Eldar, and the further we go from that the less I like it. It's almost definitely a personal preference, but I can't help but feel that the further the fluff strays from that vision the less unique the Eldar become as a concept, and the more they become 'LoTR elves...in spaaace'.

I have built quite the soap-box about this, so do tell me if I'm prattling on

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Ciaphas Cain is the one with the backflipping Terminators and Slaanesh-worshipping Eldar isn't it?

Caithas Cain is the one with the best character in 40k. Hands down not up for debate. He's even better than Creed.

Indeed he is. Its also much darker than people seem to think - yeah his Schola come across like British private school - but they practise live firing and torture on prisoners its just the grim dark stuff is a little more subtly brought into the story.

The referenced Cain book "The Greater Good" has Imperial forces co-operating reluctantly but effectively with the Tau. Yet even Cain feels physically ill about having to deal with a human in service to the Tau (even a very pretty female one!).

The Imperium has always worked with Xenos races - almost always short term.

This ranges from full blown Ambassadors, Inquisition contacts and alliances to fleets fighting together in the Gothic Sector - but the latter seldom last long.

The Eldar also have the following view (going all the way back to Adeptus Titanicus) "Mon Keigh, understand that we do not fight with you, we fight against Horus" (or similar) The Eldar are a imperious, dangerous predatory race.

A good example of how the Imperium would like it to work comes from the very first Cain novel:

Win Win from the Imperial perspective.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

If there was something in the Necron fluff about the fact that they cannot make any new Necrons (as presumably they needed Necrontyr to biotransfer), so their only hope for survival is to scour the universe for any remaining possibility of resurrecting their race, I could buy them fighting the Tyranids, as if they eat everything that's their final hope gone.

That's kinda close to how it is. The Necrons want to return to their living forms because they lost their "soul" by taking mechanical shells. Rather than having just gained immortality they lost something vital; something they missed with their science. To return to organic bodies they need living beings to test on.

I'm sort of hoping that it's revealed that humans are descended from eldar. I like the imperium and I like eldar.

NivlacSupreme wrote:
I'm sort of hoping that it's revealed that humans are descended from eldar. I like the imperium and I like eldar.

My preferred explanation for the common appearance is that's what the Old Ones looked like, and the humans were another of their experiments.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
I'm sort of hoping that it's revealed that humans are descended from eldar. I like the imperium and I like eldar.

My preferred explanation for the common appearance is that's what the Old Ones looked like, and the humans were another of their experiments.

Then the Imperium would still class them as xenos. They haven't gone astound killing all of the apes have they?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

That's kinda close to how it is. The Necrons want to return to their living forms because they lost their "soul" by taking mechanical shells. Rather than having just gained immortality they lost something vital; something they missed with their science. To return to organic bodies they need living beings to test on.

Yeah it's only a subtle difference that makes the difference.

In the official fluff they want to return to loving bodies because 'it's just nicer being a squishy organic'.

The slight alteration to them being forced to look at doing that to avoid an inexorably slow decline into insignificance and destruction is enough to make it fit nicely with the whole bokeh of the 40k universe

 AnomanderRake wrote:


My preferred explanation for the common appearance is that's what the Old Ones looked like, and the humans were another of their experiments.

Personally, i love that as an explanation. It adds a bucketload of nuance if you think into it.

The Old Ones seemed to prefer a specific bodyshape, based on their known creations (Eldar, Orks, Jokaero etc.). That of a torso, two legs, two arms with hands on the end and a separate head housing the sensory and cognitive organs. From this, we can infer two things:

1. That's probably what the Old Ones looked like in body structure
2. Any race that follows that structure in the 40k universe is likely a creation of, or was meddled with by the Old Ones (due to how staggeringly unlikely it would be for convergent evolution to be that similar on a galactic scale)

Follow this through, amd it's highly likely that the Necrontyr were an Old One experiment.

Changes the whole dynamic between the Old Ones and the Necrontyr. Perhaps the Necrontyr discovered they were being experimented on and didn't like it. Perhaps they were furious that their creators gave them painfully short lives, but the favoured children (the Eldar) could live for well over 1000 years.

It changes the War in Heaven from a petty, warlike race biting off more than they can chew into a Faustian struggle of sentient beings used as lab-rats rebelling against their neglectful and cruel experimentors.

I think that's why i dislike Newcrons so much. Such a phenomenal amount of potential, glossed over in favour of petty squabbling space-egyptians...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Yeah it's exactly Gav Thorpe's concerns that I echo. So many people think of eldar as 'prissy good-guy space elves', in part I think because of the sheer number of times they've been used as Deus Ex Machina devices to save the protagonists of an Imperial novel.

I still like the fluff in the Rogue Trader Compendium best - they were sad, knew they were losing, and were almost without hope. It wasn't that they were arrogant, as much as suffering from species-wide depression as their numbers thinned out.

But, that was a long, long time ago, and personally I'm happy with the Eldar siding with the Imperium when it suits them, and for big team-ups-at-the-end-time type things. What I never understood was why everyone seems to think Eldar and Dark Eldar are such great friends, even the official GW fluff-writers. That's like the Imperium and Chaos being close pals - they're diametrically opposed. One of them ekes out survival due to the sins their race committed in the past, and the other is a preserved window into just what that past looked like. They should hate each other entirely...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I have built quite the soap-box about this, so do tell me if I'm prattling on

Me too, actually... Anyway, I'm loving the plot progression in 40k. And, as someone who already played in the 13th Black Crusade the first time around, I know if what they make now doesn't work, there's always another Retcon, just over the horizon.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I think that's why i dislike Newcrons so much. Such a phenomenal amount of potential, glossed over in favour of petty squabbling space-egyptians...

Wait, what space Egyptians?

So sort of like the Krogan from Mass Effect, but more lethargy rather than 'raging against the dying of the light'?

Yeah that's cool too

While i don't agree that the craftworlders and commorrites are diametrically opposed to one another, i do agree that they should never be 'best buds'.

At best it should be a fraught, tense alliance of necessity against the non-eldar of the universe (the eldar are supremacists above all else). They should never truly trust each other, and looking over their shoulder for signs of betrayal at all times


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I think that's why i dislike Newcrons so much. Such a phenomenal amount of potential, glossed over in favour of petty squabbling space-egyptians...

Wait, what space Egyptians?

Exactly! The vacancy of 'Undead Space Egyptians' was already well and truly taken.

Give me back my undead space aztec terminators flaying the living to sacrifice to their predatory star-gods please

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Yeah it's only a subtle difference that makes the difference.

In the official fluff they want to return to loving bodies because 'it's just nicer being a squishy organic'.

The slight alteration to them being forced to look at doing that to avoid an inexorably slow decline into insignificance and destruction is enough to make it fit nicely with the whole bokeh of the 40k universe

I'm okay with it. They sold their soul for immortality never even thinking of the cost. Those who refused were forced into metal bodies and had their minds stripped from them. In their desperate attempt to win the war and gain immortality they destroyed almost the entirety of their species. How many still can think? How many Necrontyr retained their minds and sanity? One in a thousand? One in ten thousand? A million? Those that retained intelligence are still bound by the Silent King's last command to try to reestablish their empire. Slaved to that overriding directive. And they lost their souls. A vital part of them which they discarded and now are desperate to claw back somehow, if it's even possible.

Come to think of it, take out like a thousand leader Necrons and the species (if you can still call it that) would be all but wiped out.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Yeah it's only a subtle difference that makes the difference.

In the official fluff they want to return to loving bodies because 'it's just nicer being a squishy organic'.

The slight alteration to them being forced to look at doing that to avoid an inexorably slow decline into insignificance and destruction is enough to make it fit nicely with the whole bokeh of the 40k universe

I'm okay with it. They sold their soul for immortality never even thinking of the cost. Those who refused were forced into metal bodies and had their minds stripped from them. In their desperate attempt to win the war and gain immortality they destroyed almost the entirety of their species. How many still can think? How many Necrontyr retained their minds and sanity? One in a thousand? One in ten thousand? A million? Those that retained intelligence are still bound by the Silent King's last command to try to reestablish their empire. Slaved to that overriding directive. And they lost their souls. A vital part of them which they discarded and now are desperate to claw back somehow, if it's even possible.

Come to think of it, take out like a thousand leader Necrons and the species (if you can still call it that) would be all but wiped out.

Well that's definitely helped thanks! I like the idea that they're slaved to their last command, rather than just empire-building for the sake of it (which always jarred with my understanding of what it would be like to be an undead space robot waking up in an unfamiliar galaxy). Seems like a much more solid motivation.

I still struggle with the feeling that Newcrons are more 'good guys' than the Imperium. Especially the Silent King chap. The whole point of 40k is that the Imperium is an evil, fascist, genocidal empire...but it's ever-so-slightly better than the other horrible things in the galaxy. Having a 60 million year old undead alien robot feel more like an overarching good guy is detrimental to that narrative of 'humanity vs the horrors of the galaxy'.

Would it not be better if the Silent King found the Tyranids out in the void and thought 'well, that seems like a problem that isn't ours. Good luck fleshy meatbags'. Rather than 'oh gee fido, we'd better run back and warn the fleshy meatbags about what's coming! I'd hate to see them hurt, or our beautiful garden eaten'.

Needs more cruelty and indifference I feel...

Here's hoping you can fix that for me too!

I'm more concerned about Trazyn's latent desire to be the very best like no one ever was.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I still struggle with the feeling that Newcrons are more 'good guys' than the Imperium. Especially the Silent King chap. The whole point of 40k is that the Imperium is an evil, fascist, genocidal empire...but it's ever-so-slightly better than the other horrible things in the galaxy. Having a 60 million year old undead alien robot feel more like an overarching good guy is detrimental to that narrative of 'humanity vs the horrors of the galaxy'.

Would it not be better if the Silent King found the Tyranids out in the void and thought 'well, that seems like a problem that isn't ours. Good luck fleshy meatbags'. Rather than 'oh gee fido, we'd better run back and warn the fleshy meatbags about what's coming! I'd hate to see them hurt, or our beautiful garden eaten'.

The Necrontyr started a war of genocide against the Old Ones for no real reason. The nobility, including the Silent King, then knowingly condemned most of the species to what is possibly a fate worse than death. The vast majority of Necrons were stripped of free will and intelligence whilst only a few retained their intellect. The nobles would have known the common bodies they made were for automatons. Where did the civilians go? What happened to those who wished to retain their living bodies? All cast into the fires of biotransference to essentially die by the Silent King's command. The Silent King agreed with this. It gets worse if Necron Warriors can think or feel but be wholly unable to act or speak. Puppets doing the bidding of their masters. The Necrons seek to dominate the galaxy, remake their empire and enslave or exterminate those who resist. The living would be test subjects for an attempt at biotransference. And the Silent King is fine with this. He'd tear humanity and all the other sapient species' asunder in a heartbeat if it served his interests.

The short story The Word of the Slient King is about the Slient King/Blood Angel team up on Gehenna.