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 Thargrim wrote:
if I were to get models ahead of time should I be safe with two boxes of warriors and an overlord and praetorians?

I wonder if the triarch praetorians will be better in this edition, it does sound like it.

I wouldn't call Praetorians a "safe" buy.
Not "bad" by any means, but definitely not auto-include like the Warriors and Overlord.
Their main issue is that they can't be buffed by things like MWBD (unless it's from Anrakyr or Imotekh) and can't benefit from the improved RP that Crypteks give out (unless it's from Szeras). Also no way to give them good saves (Chronometron only extends to <Dynasty> infantry, which they are not).
I'm really hoping there's some good way to run them, but at the moment I'm not seeing it...
On the other hand, that box's other build (Lychguard) may play a crucial role. It'll depend on how the meta goes, whether taking out characters to try to disrupt enemy buffing combos becomes a widespread tactic. If snipers start appearing in every list, then Lychguard may have to become auto-include if we want to keep our Royal Court combo bubbles alive.

if I were to get models ahead of time should I be safe with two boxes of warriors and an overlord and praetorians?

I wonder if the triarch praetorians will be better in this edition, it does sound like it.

I would buy a Staring Collecting box of Necrons as you will get a Triarch Stalker and a few scarabs as well the warriors and Overlord. If you can, try get the Phalanx box that came with warriors and a Ghost/Doomsday Ark. Another great value box.

If going for Praetorians maybe research the Lynch as well as the box makes either of them. I personally go for Lynch due to Guardian Protocols and the <Dynasty> keyword.

Prets are good too due to their movement and their RoC works as both shooty and melee but they lack any keyword besides Necrons so you will be limited to the buffs they can get.

 skoffs wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
if I were to get models ahead of time should I be safe with two boxes of warriors and an overlord and praetorians?

I wonder if the triarch praetorians will be better in this edition, it does sound like it.

I wouldn't call Praetorians a "safe" buy.
Not "bad" by any means, but definitely not auto-include like the Warriors and Overlord.
Their main issue is that they can't be buffed by things like MWBD (unless it's from Anrakyr or Imotekh) and can't benefit from the improved RP that Crypteks give out (unless it's from Szeras). Also no way to give them good saves (Chronometron only extends to <Dynasty> infantry, which they are not).
I'm really hoping there's some good way to run them, but at the moment I'm not seeing it...
On the other hand, that box's other build (Lychguard) may play a crucial role. It'll depend on how the meta goes, whether taking out characters to try to disrupt enemy buffing combos becomes a widespread tactic. If snipers start appearing in every list, then Lychguard may have to become auto-include if we want to keep our Royal Court combo bubbles alive.

Hmm, well if i'm running a low points level game it would not be likely i'd be using any named characters or crypteks? I wonder if I can make a workable 500 point list with 1 hq, 2 10 man warrior squads and a couple destroyers. I'm not sure at those low pts levels if lychguard will be able to do much. The praetorians seem more mobile at least. It might be a little while before we all figure out what is going to work and what won't.

Edit: yeah I was looking at the start collecting box, it looks like an alright deal. Not a huge fan of the stalker though, for reasons not really rules-related.

Everytime I re-read the Doomsday Ark datasheet the more i like it. When it targets units with 10+ models its Doomsday gun goes from heavy d3 to heavy d6 (in long range). Still luck based on what you roll but because damage is also d6 (in long range) the DDA is going to have no problem sorting out horde armies like nids, orks, daemons, genestealers etc. Even if it moves and shoots in low power your still throwing 1-3 dice for its main gun and the Gauss flayers are RF 5 so if in half distance thats 10 shots guaranteed by the GF let alone d3 strengt 8 ap -2 d3 shots.

The Doomsday Ark is beast (imo) in 8th. Heres hoping it will get better in our codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yeah I was looking at the start collecting box, it looks like an alright deal. Not a huge fan of the stalker though, for reasons not really rules-related.

you could sell/trade the stalker to someone looking for one (trust me, you will see lots of TS due to it's Targeting Relay). Or go halfs with a friend on the box and have them pay for the Stalker.

Some conversation about Night Scythes, or discussing our Transport options in general;

I think if you're going with the Necron 'transports' then you have to embrace what makes them different rather than lament what they can't do that other transports can.

Yes they suck at transporting characters+units. Yes if you lose all your transports then you lose remaining units on the Tomb World.

What they have that's different however is they are like the Schrödinger's cat of transports - the unit is simultaneously inside and not inside the transport. And that;s something that gets interesting the more of them you have, it becomes a bit of a shell game. The other thing they can do is deploy multiple units out of a single model on consecutive turns.

Here's a sample list involving Night Scythes.

Battalion +3CP
Overlord with Hyperphase Sword (Deploy with Tesla Immortals)
Destroyer Lord with Hyperphase Sword, Res Orb. (Deploy with Destroyers/HDestroyers)

10 Immortals - Tesla
10 Immortals - Gauss - (reserved)
10 Immortals - Gauss - (reserved)

4 Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers

Flyer Wing +1CP
3 Night Scythes

2000 points on the dot 11 units.

The difference between a list like this one and a phalanx list is the increased mobility in exchange for less defense and RP buffing.

Warrior blocks with Ghost Arks backed up by Crypteks have big resilience with 4+ reroll RP and 5++ invul saves, but they have to clump and waddle along at 5" a turn in exchange for that.

The above list all the Destroyers move 10" and the OL/Tesla Immos move 6"+D6 a turn, and the flyers speed around doing the flyer things. At any point they could drop out some dangerous close range Gauss Immortals. You can do things like split the flyers up 1,1,1, run all three together, or a 1, 2 split, depending on what you need to accomplish with your Gauss Immortals, and if there is any benefit on mindgaming your opponent.

The Night Scythes/Destroyers also have the same sort of profile for enemy shooting (Lascannons/Missle bait), if your opponent sees the NS as a big threat, then your Destroyers go untouched - if he tries to focus out the Destroyers first, then you have free reign with your transports, etc. The Night Scythes are a very big 'distraction carnifex' for your Destroyers, especially if you emphasize the 'wipe them all out aspect'.

Odrankt wrote:
Everytime I re-read the Doomsday Ark datasheet the more i like it. When it targets units with 10+ models its Doomsday gun goes from heavy d3 to heavy d6 (in long range). Still luck based on what you roll but because damage is also d6 (in long range) the DDA is going to have no problem sorting out horde armies like nids, orks, daemons, genestealers etc. Even if it moves and shoots in low power your still throwing 1-3 dice for its main gun and the Gauss flayers are RF 5 so if in half distance thats 10 shots guaranteed by the GF let alone d3 strengt 8 ap -2 d3 shots.

The Doomsday Ark is beast (imo) in 8th. Heres hoping it will get better in our codex.

The damage characteristic doesn't do anything against single wound models like nids, orks, genestealers? Damage only removes multiple wounds from models with multiple wounds, as in monsters and vehicles and sometimes heavier infantry like bikes and terminators. Getting to double your hits against blobs is a nice bonus that lets the ark be more flexible in what it can shoot at to make up for how inflexible it is at moving which is a big point in its favor vs heavy destroyers who can do very little against something like a genestealer swarm. I also really hope the low power shot gets errata'd to also become a d6 against 10+ model units because it's really not a half bad front line tank in a pinch with those flayer arrays even with the negative hit modifier, and the low power shot was always the same large blast template size as the full power shot and most of the other cannons that have translated into d6 hit profiles.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Spoiler:

Battalion +3CP
Overlord with Hyperphase Sword (Deploy with Tesla Immortals)
Destroyer Lord with Hyperphase Sword, Res Orb. (Deploy with Destroyers/HDestroyers)

10 Immortals - Tesla
10 Immortals - Gauss - (reserved)
10 Immortals - Gauss - (reserved)

4 Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers

Flyer Wing +1CP
3 Night Scythes

2000 points

I like it.
Though, personally, I'd try to find some way to fit some Scarabs in for screening the Destroyers/grabbing Objectives.


Need some confirmation, though:
Flyers that leave the table in 8th do NOT come back on in later turns, right? (count as destroyed)


And mathhamer question:
How do 10 unaccompanied Immortals and 5 naked Tomb Blades compare for damage and survivability?
(yes, I realize the points would be closer if it were 4 TBs, but this is closer for wounds and shots)

 skoffs wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Spoiler:

Battalion +3CP
Overlord with Hyperphase Sword (Deploy with Tesla Immortals)
Destroyer Lord with Hyperphase Sword, Res Orb. (Deploy with Destroyers/HDestroyers)

10 Immortals - Tesla
10 Immortals - Gauss - (reserved)
10 Immortals - Gauss - (reserved)

4 Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers

Flyer Wing +1CP
3 Night Scythes

2000 points

I like it.
Though, personally, I'd try to find some way to fit some Scarabs in for screening the Destroyers/grabbing Objectives.


Need some confirmation, though:
Flyers that leave the table in 8th do NOT come back on in later turns, right? (count as destroyed)


And mathhamer question:
How do 10 unaccompanied Immortals and 5 naked Tomb Blades compare for damage and survivability?
(yes, I realize the points would be closer if it were 4 TBs, but this is closer for wounds and shots)

Tomb Blades are only 4+ unless you take an expensive upgrade. T5 helps. But they can't claim cover as easily, and you can stick the Immortals in Ruins after they come out for 2+. But the Blades can Fall Back and shoot if they survive,

Similar. Requires testing. I have trouble with Tomb Blades - they're freaking expensive as all get out, but they also pack a whallop and are fast. They're not too easy to kill, but also not too hard. Can't take buffs. They get less RP chances (less models, higher chance of getting wiped by D2+ weapons), but each passed RP is more powerful.

Need more games.

So I've had four games now and some time to digest, here are my thoughts:

1.) Destroyers are solid unit, good offense, good mobility, and tough. You pay for it though, they are pricier than they were in last edition. They will also be our best unit for dealing with primaris marines. Some call them las cannon bait, but I haven't seen a list in the army section that brought enough las cannons to do the job reliably. If even one survives you can be back up to fighting strength in a round or two.

2.) In the world of 7 toughness vehicles warriors are surprisingly solid. A 20 man blob of warriors is hard to get rid of, in fact it's only happened to me once in the four games I've played. Wounding on fives with a -1 rend can get a decent amount of work done. A 20 man blob dropped five wounds on magnus in a round.

3.) Everyone sucks at removing vehicles it's not just us. I saw a six taurox prime list that murdered everyone it fought because no one had enough dakka. Ultramarines, Khorne, orks, didn't matter. I was inline to fight it next (because I've never been one to back down from a challenge) when I got my match with the knights.

4.) Just because you will never bring enough dakka to easily handle vehicles doesn't mean you should give up on that component of list building. For the moment everyone is suffering with vehicles, your opponent will hate ours as much as we hate theirs. My goal in list building has been to bring enough anti-fattie gear to kill a LRBT a round, more than that and you risk not bringing enough anti-infantry less than that and you won't be able to handle a clutch removal.

5.) living metal is surprisingly meh, when I've had a vehicle or character die it's been the result of sudden concentrations of fire not as a result of ongoing damage. I was mad at first that only d-lords can take a phylactery now I don't even bother with it. Our opponents are not dumb, they know the best way to kill something is to overkill it. Living metal only works against incidental damage, and it doesn't really make our characters tougher. I've spent some time thinking on this, and the only way to make necron characters feel as tough as the rest of the army is to give them more wounds, and they are understandably reluctant to do that.

6.) RP is solid, I was concerned about how RP was going to play out, I'm not anymore. It can be bypassed, and I've had that done to me a fair number of times, but each time was the result of my mistake or a costly choice by my opponent. It's apples to oranges trying to compare its effectiveness between 7th ed to 8th ed, but what I can say with confidence is I like it much better in 8th. Once people actually get a few games in and see it in action I think anyone more reasonable than tradito will agree it's a cool mechanic but not overwhelming.

Things I want to include in my TAC list:

- Destroyers + HDs + D.Lord (the new D-Cult, anti-elite and anti-vehicle)
- 2 or more Night Scythes (mobile Tesla Destructors for hordes with guys that can pop out)
- Tomb Blades (at least one unit of 4-5 for Objective gabbing)
- Scarabs (one or more units of 3-6 for screening)
- Deathmarks (for handy surprise character murder)
- two to four units of 10 Immortals (but do they NEED to be 10 each?)
- Overlord (MWBD too useful not to have)

...
But for the life of me, I cannot figure out the best balance of them all in 2000 points.
This is the closest I've gotten: 2000 points exactly.

Reeeally want to stick some Scarabs in but don't know how to change it.
(I mean, I could drop the Immortals entirely, switch to two Outrider detachments, add another 5 Tomb Blades, then throw in some Scarabs... but then I'll have one less Command Point and much less bodies on the table)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimgold wrote:
the only way to make necron characters feel as tough as the rest of the army is to give them more wounds, and they are understandably reluctant to do that.

Wouldn't Lychguard effectively accomplish this? (pretty much adds another 10 or more wounds to any character they're near)

torblind wrote:

Pyrothem wrote:
Hopeful news my grumpy undying chums. The latest Front Line Gaming boys newst podcast ( https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/06/09/signals-from-the-frontline-539-8th-ed-continued-discussion/) let us know that help is coming in a few weeks!

The gist is as they were talking about that horrible batrap with Necrons VS IG Armor a chat person kept on them when they mumbled about how you could use HDestroyers and T Starkers are ok.... Reece could not hold it in and pretty much said this.
"We can't talk about it yet till forgeworld releases their book but... lets just say Necrons will have plenty of options for good anti armor to choose from"


Woooo yes! We all felt like there was some pieces missing from this puzzle called balance and I guess Forgeworld is a large part of ours.

So all those sweet 7th edition destroyers go to the shelf to gather dust for a year while we play with the FW stuff to have a fighting chance? I'm not back to being happy again. :(

We can't have everything! Haha. We had heavy weapon problems, and now we will have the problem fixed. Otherwise our army is strong.

Don't buy chinacast if you enjoy the hobby, my sentry pylons are chinacast and it was the worst experience I've had with modelling.

My genuine FW nightshroud bomber is a dream to play with.

 skoffs wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
the only way to make necron characters feel as tough as the rest of the army is to give them more wounds, and they are understandably reluctant to do that.

Wouldn't Lychguard effectively accomplish this? (pretty much adds another 10 or more wounds to any character they're near)

Kinnda, but bodyguards are something any army can do. Having that ability doesn't make necrons tougher than their equivalents in other armies which is what living metal is supposed to achieve but fails to do. Also my list points are tight enough that having 150 pts sitting by my HQ to suck wounds is just not practical.

Only Played one game with the following list against nids,


I won but it was hard to say if the list performed because I had some hot dice. Basically I designed the list to be low unit count to fish for the first turn. We played no mercy, the way we read it as soon as I finished deploying my last unit i chose to go first and he rolls to seize at that point even before he finished deploying which he failed on then finished deploying accordingly. I mention this for 2 reasons. First because he deployed his fodder units early however if he realized how it works he would have deployed his key units first then when failing to seize he could have deployed fodder as screens. Second is it means the roll to seize happens before grand deception which meant I could use it aggressively without fear of it flipping on me.

Basically I used grand deception to send the monolith deceiver and Anrakyr downfield. Infiltrated the flayed ones and used the monolith to pull the Lychguard through first turn down field. I stretched the flayed ones across a wide front allowing them to benefit from Anrakyrs buffs. Using multi charges and some hot shooting rolls I managed to ace all but one synapse creature while taking enough smaller bugs to force some morale checks. He brought some units from reserve but they weren't enough to change the flow of the battle.

Edit: I also used heroic intervention with the deceiver and Anrakyr stratagem to help save the monolith.The interrupt stratagem is gold on flayed ones.

I think you'll find that most succesful list have the deceiver in them, and that will, in due time, be dealt with by GW. In the meantime it basically allows us to win at deployment, which gives us some huge advantages over the first few turns of the game.

Also your opponent trying to seize while still deploying is a no no rules wise, and kind of a douche move.

 Grimgold wrote:
I think you'll find that most succesful list have the deceiver in them, and that will, in due time, be dealt with by GW. In the meantime it basically allows us to win at deployment, which gives us some huge advantages over the first few turns of the game.

Also your opponent trying to seize while still deploying is a no no rules wise, and kind of a douche move.

I agree he is a bit of a boss.

As for initiative the missions profile says when a player deploys their last unit they choose to go first or not, it then says when that's decided the player going second can choose to roll so seize. It doesn't really say they have to finish deploying in fact I'd argue they actually have to roll before they finish deploying. TBH I actually kind of like it that way, it helps out horde armies that are at a disadvantage with list structure who aren't likely to go first.

Nebulas1 wrote:
Only Played one game with the following list against nids,

Spoiler:

Vanguard Detachment

Anrakyr the Traveller 167
18 Flayed ones 378
9 Lychguard with warscythes 270
The deciever 225

Spear Head Detachment

Destroyer Lord with hyperphase sword 127
Monolith 381
3 x Heavy Destroyer 225
3 x Heavy Destroyer 225

I won but it was hard to say if the list performed because I had some hot dice. Basically I designed the list to be low unit count to fish for the first turn. We played no mercy, the way we read it as soon as I finished deploying my last unit i chose to go first and he rolls to seize at that point even before he finished deploying which he failed on then finished deploying accordingly. I mention this for 2 reasons. First because he deployed his fodder units early however if he realized how it works he would have deployed his key units first then when failing to seize he could have deployed fodder as screens. Second is it means the roll to seize happens before grand deception which meant I could use it aggressively without fear of it flipping on me.

Basically I used grand deception to send the monolith deceiver and Anrakyr downfield. Infiltrated the flayed ones and used the monolith to pull the Lychguard through first turn down field. I stretched the flayed ones across a wide front allowing them to benefit from Anrakyrs buffs. Using multi charges and some hot shooting rolls I managed to ace all but one synapse creature while taking enough smaller bugs to force some morale checks. He brought some units from reserve but they weren't enough to change the flow of the battle.

Hmm.
So Monolith gets set up 12" from enemy. Lychguard come out of the Monolith 3". They move up 5", so they've only got a 4" charge. Nice.
But the Flayed Ones show up 9" away. It happens at the end of the movement phase so they can't move up any further until charge time. The only Anrakyr buff they could have gotten would be his +1 to attack, as MWBD only happens at the beginning of your turn (at which point they weren't even on the table), so they couldn't use that to get an extra inch when charging, so they pretty much have to make an 8" charge. Not impossible, but kind of risky. How did it work out for them in your game? Did you go for the charge after lining them up or just use them for screening?

Nebulas1 wrote:
The interrupt stratagem is gold on flayed ones.

Can we get some further explanation?

I'm not sure we should ever take gauss blasters over tesla carbines?
Like if you average hits between gauss single shot at range and rapid fire at 12", and even that is probably generous since you normally only get 1 turn of rapid firing before something is either wiped out or you get into assault, then gauss is only better against things with a 2+ save. It's even against 3+ saves and increasingly worse above that, and also much worse if both get buffs thanks to how modifiers and re-rolls effect the tesla special rule.
And that's before you get to the greater utility of tesla with overwatch and helping our mobility problem by advancing and shooting when 5" won't cut it.

 Actinium wrote:
I'm not sure we should ever take gauss blasters over tesla carbines?
Like if you average hits between gauss single shot at range and rapid fire at 12", and even that is probably generous since you normally only get 1 turn of rapid firing before something is either wiped out or you get into assault, then gauss is only better against things with a 2+ save. It's even against 3+ saves and increasingly worse above that, and also much worse if both get buffs thanks to how modifiers and re-rolls effect the tesla special rule.
And that's before you get to the greater utility of tesla with overwatch and helping our mobility problem by advancing and shooting when 5" won't cut it.

Eh, I don't know about that. 10 Gauss Immortals dropping out of a NightScythe can wipe out a full Tactical Squad in cover in one turn. You can kite them with 10 Tesla Immortals at 24" but you're only plinking 2 out a turn with their 2+ cover saves. I can see a reason to take Gauss in some lists.

 skoffs wrote:

Nebulas1 wrote:
Only Played one game with the following list against nids,

Spoiler:

Vanguard Detachment

Anrakyr the Traveller 167
18 Flayed ones 378
9 Lychguard with warscythes 270
The deciever 225

Spear Head Detachment

Destroyer Lord with hyperphase sword 127
Monolith 381
3 x Heavy Destroyer 225
3 x Heavy Destroyer 225

I won but it was hard to say if the list performed because I had some hot dice. Basically I designed the list to be low unit count to fish for the first turn. We played no mercy, the way we read it as soon as I finished deploying my last unit i chose to go first and he rolls to seize at that point even before he finished deploying which he failed on then finished deploying accordingly. I mention this for 2 reasons. First because he deployed his fodder units early however if he realized how it works he would have deployed his key units first then when failing to seize he could have deployed fodder as screens. Second is it means the roll to seize happens before grand deception which meant I could use it aggressively without fear of it flipping on me.

Basically I used grand deception to send the monolith deceiver and Anrakyr downfield. Infiltrated the flayed ones and used the monolith to pull the Lychguard through first turn down field. I stretched the flayed ones across a wide front allowing them to benefit from Anrakyrs buffs. Using multi charges and some hot shooting rolls I managed to ace all but one synapse creature while taking enough smaller bugs to force some morale checks. He brought some units from reserve but they weren't enough to change the flow of the battle.

Hmm.
So Monolith gets set up 12" from enemy. Lychguard come out of the Monolith 3". They move up 5", so they've only got a 4" charge. Nice.
But the Flayed Ones show up 9" away. It happens at the end of the movement phase so they can't move up any further until charge time. The only Anrakyr buff they could have gotten would be his +1 to attack, as MWBD only happens at the beginning of your turn (at which point they weren't even on the table), so they couldn't use that to get an extra inch when charging, so they pretty much have to make an 8" charge. Not impossible, but kind of risky. How did it work out for them in your game? Did you go for the charge after lining them up or just use them for screening?

Nebulas1 wrote:
The interrupt stratagem is gold on flayed ones.

Can we get some further explanation?

The flayed ones failed the charge the first time with like a four and a one but used reroll on the one. It was only the +1 Attack but that's awesome on flayed ones. I charged 2 units but because they were spread out I was able to rope in 2 of his shooty units with consolidation.

The lychguard actually had to make a 7 charge because other units stopped me setting up the monolith as close as possible to the monsters I wanted to assault buy yes generally speaking it makes it easy to get those guys up close and personal.

My opponent charged my flayed ones with three units in his turn and managed to charge my destroyers with his raveners. He made the mistake of activating the raveners first so I used the counterattack stratagem to activate my flayed ones, and was able to blunt the edge on the charging units. It's hard to say if this is reliable though as first turn the flayed one went bananas and only lost 2 in return. I think with more experience in 8th edition my opponent wouldn't let half this stuff happen.

When I was writing my list I kept getting hung up on trying to make the most of RP . I decided to give up on that because it never felt right. In the end I decided to focus on building a list that would be able to chase key units on my terms. If I get a chance to play a vehicle heavy list I'll tell you how it goes.

Really good points earlier on Triarch Praetorians, skoffs.

The one thing that they still have that temps me about them is they are still effectively fearless. With the way moral now works that's a really solid way to keep RP kicking. I haven't tried them yet, as I'm having a lot of fun running the NB as my assault unit, but I'm really tempted to soon. One
other thing that can buff them is Triarch Stalkers, right?

That's a good catch on the lack of <Dynasty>, though. Hadn't noticed that till you mentioned it.

I also use to love VB/PC but it seems RoC is totally the way to go now. The extra pistol shot is okay in CC, but the Rods shooting profile seems so much better. Plus Assault will allow you to advance and still lay down some firepower if you need that little bit of extra range.

What are people's experience so far with Flayed Ones. I want to try them but that price tag seems steep this edition?

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Eh, I don't know about that. 10 Gauss Immortals dropping out of a NightScythe can wipe out a full Tactical Squad in cover in one turn. You can kite them with 10 Tesla Immortals at 24" but you're only plinking 2 out a turn with their 2+ cover saves. I can see a reason to take Gauss in some lists.

Isn't it 20 shots, 13.33 hits, 8.88wounds, 4.44 failed saves so about 4 or 5 dead in that scenario rather than a full 10? Also i said 2+ saves is specifically what gauss is better at and with the new terrain rules making you fit all models of a unit inside cover to get the armor bonus i don't think it will be totally ubiquitous. Meanwhile tesla is flat even with averaged gauss against 3+ saves, better against 4+ and much better at 5+ and 6+. With targeting relay and MWBD gauss is still better against 2+ saves but now tesla is better even against 3+ saves as well as all the higher saves.

I know it's bit of an old strat but just in new form, but dropping Zahndrekh out of a NS, then Ghost Walking in Obyron + some LG, and charging with both the benfit of MWBD and a decent chance of getting some love from either Avenge the Fallen or Solarmills! Charge seems incredible easy to pull off in this edition and potentially incredibly potent.

Say you stick 3 NS right in your opponents front door step turn 1. You'll have a pretty huge bubble of influence (3"+Zandy's base+6"+2d6+1+1" charge) to get a bunch of WS's on your enemies faces. Even if they scurry to get away from them you are likely to be able to catch up.

Also, the great thing is, you don't have to choose which NS to deploy from until the time is right, right? (Of course, your opponent might dictate that for you by killing the others lol.)

I think the best way to balance that is with some other rather juicy targets. Like maybe a whole bunch of 1xHDs or something.

The main thing keeping me from trying Flayed Ones is the difficulty in trying to get them to charge the same turn the appear on the board.
Like I said above, an 8" charge is quite a risk, especially with no way to increase it through buffs.

Praetorians... how do we even use them?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadar_Logoth wrote:
I know it's bit of an old strat but just in new form, but dropping Zahndrekh out of a NS, then Ghost Walking in Obyron + some LG, and charging with both the benfit of MWBD and a decent chance of getting some love from either Avenge the Fallen or Solarmills! Charge seems incredible easy to pull off in this edition and potentially incredibly potent.

Say you stick 3 NS right in your opponents front door step turn 1. You'll have a pretty huge bubble of influence (3"+Zandy's base+6"+2d6+1+1" charge) to get a bunch of WS's on your enemies faces. Even if they scurry to get away from them you are likely to be able to catch up.

Also, the great thing is, you don't have to choose which NS to deploy from until the time is right, right? (Of course, your opponent might dictate that for you by killing the others lol.)

I think the best way to balance that is with some other rather juicy targets. Like maybe a whole bunch of 1xHDs or something.

Multiple units of 2 HDs at least, surely.

But for this strat, would you be keeping them standing there for a full turn after dropping them off?
Because I can see no other way you'd be able to give them any buffs from Zahndrekh (all his buffs happen at the beginning of your turn, where he still wouldn't even be on the table if arriving from NS).
You can still potentially give the Lychguard MWBD beforehand if there's another Overlord level character near them on the other side of the table before they Ghostwalk... but that'll be a third HQ.

Oh yeah, good catch. So you wouldn't be able to start slinging them buffs from Zandy till turn 3.

Could still work, but not quite as potent as I was originally envisioning.

Shadar_Logoth wrote:
Oh yeah, good catch. So you wouldn't be able to start slinging them buffs from Zandy till turn 3.

Could still work, but not quite as potent as I was originally envisioning.

You could use deceiver to deploy nemesor down the field and turn one teleport them where they need to be.

Could use deceiver to deploy a nightscythe or two downfield then dump out Nemesor and some lychguard then use ghost walk to move obyron and another unit up. As far as I can tell this method would give you two units and two characters that could assault but you wouldn't get MWBD.

Shadar_Logoth wrote:
Oh yeah, good catch. So you wouldn't be able to start slinging them buffs from Zandy till turn 3.

Could still work, but not quite as potent as I was originally envisioning.

Still think the Deceiver Bomb would be a better delivery option (first turn charge can still really good, even if it doesn't have MWBD. Grand Illusion Anrakyr up with them and at least they'll get +1 attack)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nebulas1 wrote:
You could use deceiver to deploy nemesor down the field and turn one teleport them where they need to be.

Could use deceiver to deploy a nightscythe or two downfield then dump out Nemesor and some lychguard then use ghost walk to move obyron and another unit up. As far as I can tell this method would give you two units and two characters that could assault but you wouldn't get MWBD.

If you look back a bunch of pages you'll see all the various methods to use the Deceiver.
Craziest one involves the Deceiver, a Monolith, Zahndrekh, Obyron, and a bunch of Warscythe Lychguard.
Other options include replacing the Monolith with a Ghost Ark, or omitting Zahndrekh and Obyron and just having the Lychguard come out of the Monolith.
Night Scythes could work, too, but not sure how it would work out with cost effectiveness versus damage output and survivability.

Still reeeally want to use Flayed Ones in this alpha strike attack plan, but not sure to to get them to work right with that unmitigatable 8" charge they would need.

Could do a vanguard a little like this-

Zandrekh 180
Obyron 151
10 lychguard 300
10 lychguard 300
12 flayed ones 252
Deciever 225
Nightscythe 174
Nightscythe 174
3 Heavy Destroyers 225

Use grand deception to deploy the nightscythes up field, turn one drop out zandrekh and a squad of lychguard, ghost walk up obyron and the other lychguard infiltrate the flayed ones then go hard as you can on opponents. Spend a command point if needed to try and make sure you get what you need out of grand deception.

Nebulas1 wrote:
Could do a vanguard a little like this-

Zandrekh 180
Obyron 151
10 lychguard 300
10 lychguard 300
12 flayed ones 252
Deciever 225
Nightscythe 174
Nightscythe 174
3 Heavy Destroyers 225

Use grand deception to deploy the nightscythes up field, turn one drop out zandrekh and a squad of lychguard, ghost walk up obyron and the other lychguard infiltrate the flayed ones then go hard as you can on opponents. Spend a command point if needed to try and make sure you get what you need out of grand deception.

Would you be comortable getting to go first with 9 units?

torblind wrote:

Nebulas1 wrote:
Could do a vanguard a little like this-

Zandrekh 180
Obyron 151
10 lychguard 300
10 lychguard 300
12 flayed ones 252
Deciever 225
Nightscythe 174
Nightscythe 174
3 Heavy Destroyers 225

Use grand deception to deploy the nightscythes up field, turn one drop out zandrekh and a squad of lychguard, ghost walk up obyron and the other lychguard infiltrate the flayed ones then go hard as you can on opponents. Spend a command point if needed to try and make sure you get what you need out of grand deception.

Would you be comortable getting to go first with 9 units?

Looking at the army lists forums mostly yes though it is hard to gauge with how transports and deployment works. If you didn't go first it would be a serious uphill battle. It'll be one of those wait and see what the meta does I think. A lot of lists seem to build towards command points which seems to result in more units. Will the meta shift between fishing for first turn or conceding first turn to get more CP?

Nebulas1 wrote:
Could do a vanguard a little like this-

Spoiler:

Zandrekh 180
Obyron 151
10 lychguard 300
10 lychguard 300
12 flayed ones 252
Deciever 225
Nightscythe 174
Nightscythe 174
3 Heavy Destroyers 225

Use grand deception to deploy the nightscythes up field, turn one drop out zandrekh and a squad of lychguard, ghost walk up obyron and the other lychguard infiltrate the flayed ones then go hard as you can on opponents. Spend a command point if needed to try and make sure you get what you need out of grand deception.

Still doesn't get the Flayed Ones closer. If there were a way to reliably get them into combat after they hit the table it would change everything. Until that way is figured out, not sure how well they'd work in this case, apart from psychological effect of having a bunch of CC guys real close to you that will probably require you attention (thus distracting attention away from the Lychguard).

Realistically, with all of the options, it looks like you can only get two CC units into that Alpha strike on average* (using a CP to reroll if 1). The only difference is the kind of support you want to go with them... and honestly, if you're using two Night Scythes, you might not even need N.Z and V.O (just have the Lychguard step out and walk up). Those HQ are not contributing much to that initial charge/attack as far as buffs go, so you could probably save a lot of points there by omitting them.

*If you manage a 3 for Grand Illusion, bring a shooty unit.