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Lyell wrote:Quick question about the deathmarks.

A unit of Deathmarks could deepstrike after a droppod arrived on the battlefield but, according to the rules, they could only shoot on the droppod itself, not the unit that disembarked from the vehicle.

Do I understand the rules correctly? Is this merely an oversight (and could be clarified in an upcoming FaQ) or intended?

If you use their ethereal interception entrance instead of their normal hunters from hyperspace deep strike then ya you need to shoot the transport that deep striked. Deep struck? That did the thing. I'm not sure its even an oversight as the rule specifically leaves out disembarking units while leaving in something like the monolith's portal or nightscythe's beam deploying a unit in from reserves without technically disembarking them from itself.

Shadar_Logoth wrote:One thing I haven't seen discussed much is the new Particle Shredder has a pretty solid profile.

24" Heavy 6 S7 AP -1 D3

That's really not bad at all. Also a good 23 points cheaper then the twin HGCs.

I also really like the shredder. Very few large blast weapons got translated into a flat 6 hit weapon rather than a d6 hit weapon, and a flurry of hits helps mitigate the moving and shooting heavy weapons modifier as getting ~3 shredder hits feels quite a bit better then only getting ~1 heat ray or HGC shot landed.
I think it comes down to what the stalker's role in the army is. If you're trying to buff troop blobs and tesla shots you will probably be shooting at the infantry those units want to shoot at anyway where the expensive options are largely wasted (i'm not paying 171 points for a heavy flamer, dispersed heat ray) while supporting doomsday arks you probably want the added range and/or punch of the 2 shot weapons.
Triarch stalkers are also much better in fights than i thought at first, they're basically a warscythe overlord minus a WS and some AP.

Hey all!!

Was doing some numbers, conscript blobs only hit night/doom scythes on 6+ AND wound on 6+, not to mention the 3+ armor save. If my math is right, that means 100 conscript lasgun shots only does ~ 0.85 wounds? Maybe we can do something with that...

Also, do tesseract vaults get to use the same ctan power multiple times? It says you can use three powers above 15 wounds, not each power once

Well C'tan powers are not warp powers so I think this means you can. Even so I don't think it is any way worth it at nearly 500 points, you will do much better with those points in practically anything else.

The combo of topics did have me thinking about the use of the seismic assault power against the likely blobs of conscripts to boyz to gants. Might be a great use of you are taking a ctan anyway and face hordes. Not a primary weapon but a cool additional counter.

Looking at the requirements for Brigade Detachment, I thought,
"Pfft, there's no way we can make that work, all our stuff is way too expensive."
But then I thought I'd try just an experiment, and, ...
Well what do you know, looks like it doesn't completely suck?
I'd love to free up some more points so I can raise my troop numbers, but I don't know what would be best to drop substitute. (can't "drop" anything, have exactly the required number of units for each slot. Can only replace a current unit with something cheaper)

 buddha wrote:
The combo of topics did have me thinking about the use of the seismic assault power against the likely blobs of conscripts to boyz to gants. Might be a great use of you are taking a ctan anyway and face hordes. Not a primary weapon but a cool additional counter.

Seismic assault essentially deletes 1/6 of unit, which is 8.33 of a 50 man conscript blob. 8.33 conscripts is only worth 25 points though...

From my very limited game knowledge, what seems to really make the conscripts OP is that comissars make them only lose 1 man at most from morale, and at only 30 points apiece! Otherwise they would be much easier to deal with. 10 tesla immortals with MWBD average 13.33 kills on conscripts, and without a commissar would take another 6 in the morale phase.

I'm wondering what the answer will be. Using nigh-invincible nightscythes to drop in blobs of flayed ones with some tesla on the side?

How many games of 8th have you played so far skoffs? I'm interested to hear about your tabletop experiences.

Busting hordes like that is where I start thinking about the ABarge with all Tesla. Mind you, horde busting isn't really hard with Necrons given the sheer bulk of S4-5 dakka they put out. The last list I wrote up (2000pts) was putting out more than 200 Guass Flayer rounds at close range, then tack on the Tesla and big guns.

I like the Seismic Assault idea for hordes though.

Just an FYI, gauss shots to dead guardsmen is roughly 3-1 at BS3+ and a little worse than 2-1 at BS 2+. Using Stalkers to reroll ones on those blobs is probably the most efficient buff there. At that point you need 110 gauss shots to erase a 50 man squad. Very doable IMO.

Quick question, can we use Time's Arrow to snipe characters? It says "pick a visible enemy". I'm not sure if the powers count as shooting attacks or what. If they're not, what are the rules that govern their use? Maybe I should check YMDC...

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Instead of building lists that try to maximize the chances of first turn assaults and alpha strikes, has anyone attenpts to build a two phase hammer and anvil strategy?

Peering into other tactics threads and it seems alpha is the desired go to. I was thinking of maybe working on a list that bets to recieve alpha strike attempts on my anvil and then deepstrikes the hammer in behind the alpha strike. Catching it on a two front attack.

I don't know enough about the future 8th meta to understand if that could ever work though.

Alpha is popular because it works and it's hard to screw up/counter. You either let them control the tempo or let them have the fight they want. It's not without risks though, if you all in on someone and they out alpha you you're up a creek, and if someone can avoid your alpha while still attacking effectively Alpha lists generally don't have a second trick to fall back on.

In 8th ed the alpha lists rely on synergy between characters and units, which when combined with the fact anything can be killed gives us an opportunities we didn't have in 7th. If your anti-character game is strong you can take the gas out of the tank by getting rid of the auras that are making the units dangerous. Examples are the C'Tan power Time's arrow, which if you are willing to blow a reroll on it, 56% of the time can delete a 4 wound character without them getting a save, or bodyguard substitutions being possible. Another option is for 200 points a 10 man deathmark squad should be able to kill just about any 5 wound character since they can land in rapid fire range and can send a fair amount of mortal wounds their way in addition to their normal damage, just don't expect them to get a second turn. One last option is that nemesor zahndrekh can turn off nearby auras, which can be a nice denial mechanism.

I think marines will be the kings of alpha in 8th ed, their character buffs are auras, so it affect multiple units, and no thought is required, just keep them close and you are good. All three of their common Buffs are offense based, Reroll 1's to hit (captain), reroll 1's to wound (leutnant), and +1 attack (ancient). It means space marines in formation are going to offensively greater than the sum of their parts.

Sadly Time's Arrow says "pick a visible enemy unit" so you can't target characters inside other units...

However I think that does mean you can target solo characters outside of units even if they arent the closest, unlike regular shooting.

I think one of the best uses for the powers will be the antimatter meteor on stuff like terminators or units with annoying invuln saves, like our own lychguard

I thought somebody said somewhere that the C'tan powers were usable even while they are in CQB? Any confirmation on that?

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
How many games of 8th have you played so far skoffs?

Hah, that would suggest I and the people I play with actually have time.
No, I tried a quick test game at the GW store when they got the books in, but we all probably won't have time to actually sort out a weekend to play until after the actual release (life, man).
For the time being I'm still trying to theoryhammer out what I want to take. That's what discussions like this are good for- Looking at what other people have tried, figuring out what would be good, what needs to be reevaluated, etc. Thus far most of the lists I write up are just experiments to see if I can make something that pulls off an interesting gimmick (eg. Deceiver Bomb, Destroyer Wing, Speed 'Crons, Scarab Spam, Quantum Shielding Wall), but I think I'm getting pretty close to settling on a decent TAC list. Won't know for sure until I can take it for a few test drives... *sigh*

 crunkDealer wrote:
Sadly Time's Arrow says "pick a visible enemy unit" so you can't target characters inside other units...

However I think that does mean you can target solo characters outside of units even if they arent the closest, unlike regular shooting.

I think one of the best uses for the powers will be the antimatter meteor on stuff like terminators or units with annoying invuln saves, like our own lychguard

I thought somebody said somewhere that the C'tan powers were usable even while they are in CQB? Any confirmation on that?

Visible only refers to LoS, characters with other enemies closer are visible, just not targetable by most shooting attacks, if they weren't considered visible then they wouldn't be targetable by things like sniper weapons. This leads into the next point, C'Tan powers are not shooting attacks, so like smite they can be used in CCB and against enemies in CCB. As an aside, This is why smite is always closest unit, since it can be spammed people would use it to snipe out enemy characters. Time's arrow on the other hand is your choice of targets, so you can use it to take out characters, but if you use the power on a unit with more than one model, the defender gets to decide which model is removed as a casualty. It's an interesting power, with the possibility for a much higher DPR than anti-matter meteor, but it's also riskier, and there are some opponents it won't work on at all. On night bringer it would be my go to, since he has a shooting attack he can use if time's arrow isn't viable, but on deceiver it's best to stick with AMM.

If monolith and night scythe do not have transport key wordind - can units going on table via monolith and night scythe move and charge? I

 buddha wrote:

Shadar_Logoth wrote:
One thing I haven't seen discussed much is the new Particle Shredder has a pretty solid profile.

24" Heavy 6 S7 AP -1 D3

That's really not bad at all. Also a good 23 points cheaper then the twin HGCs.

You might be onto something there. It's a pretty perfect anti tank profile except against T8.

Wouldn't twin HGC go along way to match this, with its improved AP and higher damage? even if its only 1/3 of the shots?

Just to confirm,
The Deceiver's Grand Illusion redeploy happens AFTER the roll to seize initiative, right?

 skoffs wrote:
Just to confirm,
The Deceiver's Grand Illusion redeploy happens AFTER the roll to seize initiative, right?

It's at the beginning of the first battle round, so yeah, definitely.

Rezolut wrote:
If monolith and night scythe do not have transport key wordind - can units going on table via monolith and night scythe move and charge? I

Nope. This seems to be getting missed by a lot of people talking about deceiver bombs.

The only way* to get better than a 9" charge on the first turn is with NZ and VOs Ghostwalk mantle.

Deceiver bomb is not really a viable strategy. To do it properly it will cost most of your 200pt list and it doesn't work if you get seized on or your opponent has taken some screening units.


*you can of course get first turn charges more easily if you go second and your opponent moves towards you.

Huh, they operate just like transports (must "disembark" before vehicle moves) but units that enter this way have the "deep strike" penalty of not being to move after hitting the table because they count as having moved.
Hopefully this is just (yet another) accidental omission/oversight and they fix it with a FAQ, but for the time being,
Wow, the Monolith is EVEN WORSE than we thought!

 skoffs wrote:
Huh, they operate just like transports (must "disembark" before vehicle moves) but units that enter this way have the "deep strike" penalty of not being to move after hitting the table because they count as having moved.
Hopefully this is just (yet another) accidental omission/oversight and they fix it with a FAQ, but for the time being,
Wow, the Monolith is EVEN WORSE than we thought!

Remember that one is allowed to disembark up to 3" away from the vehicle, so its not a 9" charge but more of a potential 6" charge.
Its not that bad, really.
You'll never be able to get a first turn charge with the monolith anyway; you deploy the monolith at the end of your movement phase, and units are deployed from the monolith before it moves.
I know necrons are capable of time travel, but I don't think that applies here.

I am still going to try the D-bomb even though I don't think it's very good.

I think you need to drop your whole army in front of the enemy, including characters to support the infantry. The only way I can see to do this is to use Grand Illusion to put the Deceiver, a Monolith (with unit in waiting) and a ghost ark with characters (Zhandrek + compulsory cryptek) 12" from the enemy. Then also have VO and a unit of 10 scythe guard deployed to teleport up 1st turn. The unit coming out of the monolith should probably be a shooting unit so 20 warriors seems best.

That gives:

N. Zandrek
V. Obyron
Orkian (Might as well take the best Cryptek)

20 Warriors
Ghost Ark

10x Lichguard
Deceiver

Monolith

All that can be moved up on the first turn and comes to 1790. 10 Flayed ones seems the best unit to round off the list to 2000. They can drop in with the rest of the army and takes the list to 3 elite choices which, after taking the -1cp hit for an extra HQ, gives a legal list.

So 6 drops for a probable first turn with 2000pts in the opponents face. It's not going to work consistently and may have too few units to work even if you don't get seized on/ screened.


I may have set a new record for bad spelling of Necron units, no easy task.

I just haven't seen a good answer to screens for these alpha strikes yet. Most of them seem incredibly self defeating.

The Deciever seems awesome regardless. I think you want a 'normal' army with him, should work just fine.

Rezolut wrote:
If monolith and night scythe do not have transport key wordind - can units going on table via monolith and night scythe move and charge? I

They wouldn't be able to move or advance but they can still act normally (shoot, charge, etc) according to the Reinforcement rules. It's on the side of the page for the Movement Phase rules.

So for matched play, do you pay the points for gear a model is described as being equipped with? Such as the necron overlord and the staff of light. It says the overlord has a staff of light but the points section lists points for that weapon, so do you have to pay for it? Or triarch praetorians who have rod of the covenant but its listed with points and they are the only unit that can have them, so are they actually a base 35pts then?

 BrotherGecko wrote:
So for matched play, do you pay the points for gear a model is described as being equipped with? Such as the necron overlord and the staff of light. It says the overlord has a staff of light but the points section lists points for that weapon, so do you have to pay for it? Or triarch praetorians who have rod of the covenant but its listed with points and they are the only unit that can have them, so are they actually a base 35pts then?

You have to pay for any base wargear. So the cost of an Overlord will be the cost of the base Overlord plus the cost of a Staff of Light.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
So for matched play, do you pay the points for gear a model is described as being equipped with? Such as the necron overlord and the staff of light. It says the overlord has a staff of light but the points section lists points for that weapon, so do you have to pay for it? Or triarch praetorians who have rod of the covenant but its listed with points and they are the only unit that can have them, so are they actually a base 35pts then?

You have to pay for gear.
The points cost for the model is what you're paying for its base stats and its rules. The weapons are bought separately.
Case in point - Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are the same points cost base, but the weapons aren't.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Remember that one is allowed to disembark up to 3" away from the vehicle, so its not a 9" charge but more of a potential 6" charge.
Its not that bad, really.
You'll never be able to get a first turn charge with the monolith anyway; you deploy the monolith at the end of your movement phase, and units are deployed from the monolith before it moves.

That applies to a Monolith coming in via "deep strike", or whatever we're calling it now.
The method of use for the Deceiver Bomb has it on the table on the first turn already, then moved up with the Grand Illusion power, at which point the unit in waiting "disembarks" and moves up, getting into position to charge. Or at least that USED to be the plan, until it was realized that because it and the Night Scythe lack the Transport keyword it means any units coming out of them would have counted as having moved, despite coming in exactly like a units getting out of a transport would have. Without this extra penalty a first turn charge from a Monolith redeployed via Grand Illusion would have totally been doable. As is, yeah, it would be a 9" charge (12" away via Grand Illusion minus 3" closer when stepping out of the Monolith).

So yeah, looks like Obyron bringing a single unit of Scythe Lychguard is the only reliable first turn charging we can do. All the rest of a Deceiver Bomb's alpha strike is going to have to be shooting.

 skoffs wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Remember that one is allowed to disembark up to 3" away from the vehicle, so its not a 9" charge but more of a potential 6" charge.
Its not that bad, really.
You'll never be able to get a first turn charge with the monolith anyway; you deploy the monolith at the end of your movement phase, and units are deployed from the monolith before it moves.

That applies to a Monolith coming in via "deep strike", or whatever we're calling it now.
The method of use for the Deceiver Bomb has it on the table on the first turn already, then moved up with the Grand Illusion power, at which point the unit in waiting "disembarks" and moves up, getting into position to charge. Or at least that USED to be the plan, until it was realized that because it and the Night Scythe lack the Transport keyword it means any units coming out of them would have counted as having moved, despite coming in exactly like a units getting out of a transport would have. Without this extra penalty a first turn charge from a Monolith redeployed via Grand Illusion would have totally been doable. As is, yeah, it would be a 9" charge (12" away via Grand Illusion minus 3" closer when stepping out of the Monolith).

So yeah, looks like Obyron bringing a single unit of Scythe Lychguard is the only reliable first turn charging we can do. All the rest of a Deceiver Bomb's alpha strike is going to have to be shooting.

I think the best Deceiver Bomb is with a Ghost Ark holding Zahndrekh and an understrength unit of Warriors + Obyron/Scytheguard. I'm still not a huge fan of "gaming" the Understrength rule, but it is really good in this situation, as you can use it to get good shooting midfield + get a melee bomb off.

Deceiver is still a pretty good option if you're running Gauss Immortal units (for hopefully obvious reasons) or QS spam. Plopping a Heat Ray Stalker or two in the middle of the table is hard to shift (especially if there's big enough cover to block it), plus Barges/DDArks in the backfield to support them, is quite powerful. Get the Stalkers in range shoot the Heat Ray without moving, and if they get charged they're actually not too bad in combat with 3+/AP-1/Dd3.

Aren't the stalkers valuable enough that they won't be the first thing you feed to the enemy? Or could you advance with a scarab screen ahead of them in your first turn?

Requizen wrote:
I think the best Deceiver Bomb is with a Ghost Ark holding Zahndrekh and an understrength unit of Warriors + Obyron/Scytheguard. I'm still not a huge fan of "gaming" the Understrength rule, but it is really good in this situation, as you can use it to get good shooting midfield + get a melee bomb off.

Deceiver is still a pretty good option if you're running Gauss Immortal units (for hopefully obvious reasons) or QS spam. Plopping a Heat Ray Stalker or two in the middle of the table is hard to shift (especially if there's big enough cover to block it), plus Barges/DDArks in the backfield to support them, is quite powerful. Get the Stalkers in range shoot the Heat Ray without moving, and if they get charged they're actually not too bad in combat with 3+/AP-1/Dd3.

Oh, for sure, Grand Illusion-ing up a Ghost Ark with Zahndrekh inside is now pretty much the only way to go for a CC focused Deceiver Bomb until they errata the Monolith and Night Scythe... but like someone above said, those two are still good things to include in an Alpha Strike list (only now you've gotta have shooty guys disembark to be of any use that turn).

So yeah, if you can get two units up with Grand Illusion, in addition to Z's Ghost Ark, yes, a Stalker wouldn't be a bad 2nd thing to bring along, seeing as how you would be wanting to get the most out of your shooting in that opening volley to mitigate as much retaliation as possible.
I was almost considering taking Anrakyr for a 3rd Grand Illusion candidate (to give the Lychguard a bonus attack). If you end up only being able to take 2 out of the D3, and one of them was the Stalker, Anraykr's Tach Arrow would still be able to benefit from the reroll buff from anywhere on the table (S10 AP-5 d6D at 120", BS2+ rerolling 1s).
...
But actually, what about a huge unit of Flayed Ones instead of Lychguard to accompany Obyron?
Less AP but a huge number of attacks (even more so if Anrakyr comes along). You'd be able to spread out and effectively draw in several units. Only major downside I can think of is trying to fit 20 of them within 6" of Zahndrekh.

You can get 14 Flayed Ones for the price of 10 Scytheguard. Quick math:



Didn't do invuln saves because just napkin math.

Equivalent points of Warscythes do better against 4+ armor or better at all ranges, against 5+ armor at T5/T6/T8 (but that's a pretty rare statline), and never at 6+.

Flayed Ones are a better choice for T4 5+/6+, which is pretty much just tarpit stuff.

If you want to blob it out to 20, those numbers might change a bit, but I'm honestly not expecting them to outpace too hard. And you're right, getting them all in the bubble and also all in range to attack is probably a challenge.

14 FOs also have less Wounds and Effective Wounds via worse Save and Toughness. I would say the Lychguard are better in any situation that matters. Except maybe against Tyranids, where you'll want the Flayed Ones to clear out small bugs and then use heavy guns on the big ones.