Old INDEX Necron 8th Tactica - link to new codex tactics thread in OP

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**skoffs**

Requizen wrote:
You can get 14 Flayed Ones for the price of 10 Scytheguard.

Well if we're going Alpha Strike we'll want to get maximum punch, either way.
Unit of 20 Flayed Ones (80 attacks) or 10 Scytheguard (20 attacks), charging with Obyron (3 more attacks)*.
If Anrakyr is taken in the list but can't come along for the Grand Illusion, he can at least grant the FOs or Lychguard a handy MWBD buff before Obyron Ghostwalks them away.

*Just to confirm: charging units no longer get +1 to attack in 8th, right? It's just the "get to attack first" bonus, correct?
(didn't see anything about it in the rules... but we may have forgotten about that in the game we played. Oops)

Also worth considering,
Wounds dealt by Warscythes will be 2D each that doesn't spill over if killing one wound models. Flayed ones are straight 1:1
...
You could always bring both in the list, that way you'll have some tactical flexibility? (if horde target, Obyron brings the FOs. If multi-wound target, Lychguard it is.)

**Anpu-adom**

Flayed Ones add the ability to react to your opponents deployment or first turn... something you don't have with Lychguard unless you take a Night Scythe with them.
Yep, charging units no longer get the +1 attack, now you get to attack first and hopefully remove some of the opponent's ability to hit back.
This game is not going to be won at list building... it could be lost at list building though. Tactical Flexibility is something that is going to matter.

**Requizen**

Anpu-adom wrote:
Flayed Ones add the ability to react to your opponents deployment or first turn... something you don't have with Lychguard unless you take a Night Scythe with them.
Yep, charging units no longer get the +1 attack, now you get to attack first and hopefully remove some of the opponent's ability to hit back.
This game is not going to be won at list building... it could be lost at list building though. Tactical Flexibility is something that is going to matter.

Still think Flayed Ones are too expensive for what they are. Sure, they may be better at punching out weaker 1W models, but honestly, have we ever struggled with that? We can do that with Tesla, or even just massed Warriors/Immortals/Ghost Arks.

Scythe Lychguard are great because they let us punch through tougher units. TWC is going to still be a thing. People will still take Riptides and Wraithknights even though they went up in cost. 3 Imperial Knight armies are going to be a thing. Flayed Ones have no place against those units, other than maybe popping up on an objective and trying to cap it. Warscythe Lychguard, if they get in, are potentially the best units available for dropping them in a single round or so.

The only other things we have to take those types of targets out reliably are Heavy Destroyers and Doomsday Arks, but with the high number of attacks, I think the Lychguard will overall more reliable, and Knights only get their 5++ against shooting as well.

**skoffs**

So WS Lychguard would appear to be the better choice, with all the accompanying shooting taking out the single wound stuff.

What else would be good to support a Deceiver Bomb?
Unfortunately the main components (Deceiver, Zahndrekh, Obyron) take up 556 points of your army, 856 including the LG. That doesn't leave a lot of room for extra toys.
Ghost Ark + Warriors, that's going to be another 290, which already puts it over a thousand (1146, to be precise).
What do you get for the last 850-ish points?
Monolith + Immortals? (lot of AP-2 shooting)
A bunch of Deathmarks? (get rid of enemy support characters first to make killing the rest easier)*
More HQ? (eg. Anrakyr or Orikan to buff your guys)
Some Night Scythes? (for mobile Tesla Destructors)
The aforementioned Stalker with maybe Doomsday Ark down your side?
Something else? (Flayed ones for counter assault deterrent)

*If Tesla procs on a 5 or 6 on Immortals if they have been buffed with MWBD, does that mean Deathmarks on MWBD would generate bonus mortal wounds on a 5 or 6 as well?

**Pyrothem**

Queston about knights:

Is their speed high enough that you will never get to hit them more than once with a deep strike like attack? At a 5" move they will never get to anything that does not want to be got.

**torblind**

Perhaps the ghost ark could hunt him down, lock him in cc and QS-ignore those D6 dmg CC weapons of his

**Fragile**

You cant lock Knights in CC, they can just stomp off. But Knights will have a harder time with QS models in CC since they dont want to use their Swords. Their feet will still do some damage though.

**Requizen**

skoffs wrote:So WS Lychguard would appear to be the better choice, with all the accompanying shooting taking out the single wound stuff.

What else would be good to support a Deceiver Bomb?
Unfortunately the main components (Deceiver, Zahndrekh, Obyron) take up 556 points of your army, 856 including the LG. That doesn't leave a lot of room for extra toys.
Ghost Ark + Warriors, that's going to be another 290, which already puts it over a thousand (1146, to be precise).
What do you get for the last 850-ish points?
Monolith + Immortals? (lot of AP-2 shooting)
A bunch of Deathmarks? (get rid of enemy support characters first to make killing the rest easier)*
More HQ? (eg. Anrakyr or Orikan to buff your guys)
Some Night Scythes? (for mobile Tesla Destructors)
The aforementioned Stalker with maybe Doomsday Ark down your side?
Something else? (Flayed ones for counter assault deterrent)

Probably Tesla Immortals and maybe an Annibarge or two. With the bomb you'll have 2 units plus an Ark and some Characters up close right off the bat, so you Tesla being able to do great from 24" is nice plus it can clear out small stuff and tarpits.

*If Tesla procs on a 5 or 6 on Immortals if they have been buffed with MWBD, does that mean Deathmarks on MWBD would generate bonus mortal wounds on a 5 or 6 as well?

No, because it's a Wound roll of 6+.

Pyrothem wrote:Queston about knights:

Is their speed high enough that you will never get to hit them more than once with a deep strike like attack? At a 5" move they will never get to anything that does not want to be got.

Possibly, but 10 Warscythes statistically deal 8.88 wounds on the charge (11.11 if they get MWBD) so they're pretty likely to cripple the thing before it gets a chance to back out. A Knight hitting on 4s is much less scary.

Fragile wrote:You cant lock Knights in CC, they can just stomp off. But Knights can rarely ever kill a QS model in CC since they do 6 damage per hit.

I think at that point they're more likely to use their feet which do more hits at D1 each.

**Grimgold**

I'm confused by the deceiver sucks comments, we are primarily a shooting army in this edition, so the inability to charge after moving isn't that important. What is important is that our opponent has no idea what our final deployment will be like, so he has to spread out.

It's our answer to Alpha lists, allowing us concentration and denying our opponent the same. Good opponents will hate seeing the deceiver on the board, bad opponents won't even know what hit them.

**Hakumei**

Could the Catacomb Command Barge be a worthwhile option to use in order to chase knights around? Also, what are your guys' opinion on sword and board lychguard vs warscythe lychguard?

**Requizen**

Hakumei wrote:
Could the Catacomb Command Barge be a worthwhile option to use in order to chase knights around? Also, what are your guys' opinion on sword and board lychguard vs warscythe lychguard?

Eh, it doesn't put out enough damage to really threaten a Knight and will die to the retaliation. We're better off trying to shoot it to death or instagib it on the charge with Lychguard.

**Solosam47**

Hakumei wrote:
Could the Catacomb Command Barge be a worthwhile option to use in order to chase knights around? Also, what are your guys' opinion on sword and board lychguard vs warscythe lychguard?

For lychguard I loved sword and broad in 7th, man they could hold their ground well, used to never even think about running scythes, but now after seeing the rules for them in 8th, im feeling warscythes almost all the way. I need to get a few games in though to see how important that invuln is now a days but umph its hard to pass up the killing power of those scythes.

**Grimgold**

Hakumei wrote:
Could the Catacomb Command Barge be a worthwhile option to use in order to chase knights around? Also, what are your guys' opinion on sword and board lychguard vs warscythe lychguard?

They can just stomp instead of using their Chain sword, which kill the 8 wounds of the CCB pretty quick.

**Hakumei**

That's a shame. The CCB has a cool image and it'd be pretty cool to field one without it blowing up in one turn.

**skoffs**

If taking Warscythe Lychguard, bringing Orikan with them isn't a bad idea (his 5++ covers units in CC, too)... don't know if I'd bring him in a Deceiver Bomb, though. The idea there is maximum damage dealt in the first turn, and he'd only be contributing to survivability. I'd go with Anrakyr if I had to take a 3rd HQ with that setup. Actually, I'd go with Anrakyr most times if I'm taking Scytheguard. That extra attack is worth the points... only downside is he can't take vehicles, yet.
>:/

**Requizen**

Just asked on the Frontline Gaming stream, sounds like either they or GW will FAQ Understrength Units to not be voluntary or something similar (maybe just not in Matched Play or tournaments). So no Zahndrekh + 9 Warriors.

Thanks GW.

**skoffs**

Wow.
Okay, load up on characters for the party bus, then, I guess...
Can they FAQ some things to go IN our favor as well?
(eg. change <DYNASTY> INFANTRY to just say NECRON INFANTRY instead on the wording of Ghost Ark, Night Scythe, Monolith, My Will Be Done, Ghostwalk Mantle, etc. Give the Monolith and Night Scythe the TRANSPORT keyword. What else do we need clarification on that might hopefully help our army?)

**Tokhuah**

Wow, I finally read the whole thread and caught up! If I could just quit my job I would be much better at this...

Grimgold wrote:
I'm confused by the deceiver sucks comments, we are primarily a shooting army in this edition, so the inability to charge after moving isn't that important. What is important is that our opponent has no idea what our final deployment will be like, so he has to spread out.

Agree with this. Since the rules changed and we cannot move the Night Scythe within 12" of an enemy then beam down a unit of rapid fire units the Deceiver virtually gives us this option. I am assuming the Deceiver's 12" away is the only limitation to placement anywhere on the table. If redeployment is just the C'tan and Scythe there is going to be a good space to plunk that down or your opponent is going to have a janky deployment to stop it.

I also want to see Anrakyr focused on Tessla madness with the benefit of providing an extra attack for Immortals when the enemy attempts cc after they tire of getting hit with 25 hits from 20 dice.

**Grimgold**

I got the feeling that understrength units were so they could be nice to people just getting started that may not have enough models for a particular unit. As soon as people saw a rules advantage , they were like "yeah, guess not in matched play".

Also watched the miniwargaming faction focus batreps for necrons, the public one was kind of meh, and an object lesson on why we don't use sword and board lychguard anymore. But the one in the vault was pretty decent, and featured scytheguard taking apart Cawl.

**Hakumei**

Grimgold wrote:
I got the feeling that understrength units were so they could be nice to people just getting started that may not have enough models for a particular unit. As soon as people saw a rules advantage , they were like "yeah, guess not in matched play".

Also watched the miniwargaming faction focus batreps for necrons, the public one was kind of meh, and an object lesson on why we don't use sword and board lychguard anymore. But the one in the vault was pretty decent, and featured scytheguard taking apart Cawl.

I watched that batrep. Lots of tactical errors on the Necron player's part.

**Requizen**

Grimgold wrote:
I got the feeling that understrength units were so they could be nice to people just getting started that may not have enough models for a particular unit. As soon as people saw a rules advantage , they were like "yeah, guess not in matched play".

Also watched the miniwargaming faction focus batreps for necrons, the public one was kind of meh, and an object lesson on why we don't use sword and board lychguard anymore. But the one in the vault was pretty decent, and featured scytheguard taking apart Cawl.

Was considering subbing for this 8th ed launch month just to get more 40k content, is it worthwhile?

**skoffs**

Remember: Add a Stalker into the mix with Tesla Immortals that have been given MWBD and it's 2+ to hit, rerolling 1s, and every 5 or 6 adds two more hits.
Yeaaaah, that's good.

(also, who was saying Deceiver was bad?)

**Grimgold**

Hakumei wrote:
I watched that batrep. Lots of tactical errors on the Necron player's part.

The public one, certainly. His warriors more or less carried him to what victory points he achieved, and an annihilation barge had no place in that fight. He held his lychguard back for too long, and when it came time to put the petal to the metal they were sorely lacking. I think he should have massed fire at the deathwing instead of trying to duke it out with them.

The second one felt like the ad mech players game to lose, and no spoilers, but things did not got the way i expected.

Requizen wrote:

Was considering subbing for this 8th ed launch month just to get more 40k content, is it worthwhile?

Hmm if it's just 8th ed content, well it depends. If you're interested in multiple armies, it should be worth picking it up for a month, but if you are only watching one specific armies batreps maybe not. They are the gold standard for batreps though, and they have spoiled me for batreps to the point where it's hard for me to watch other batreps. They also have other fun content like bloodbowl, AoS, and their narrative campaigns (a personal favorite). Though if you do subscribe you get to see their dark imperium batrep, which was a good fight, their ancient's banner for the MWG chapter of primaris space marines is suitably amusing. My suggestion try the free trial, it will last until launch, and gives you all the 8th ed faction focus content.

**skoffs**

Grimgold wrote:
They are the gold standard for batreps though

I do like the way they're presented, but every time I watch one involving Necrons there are just SO MANY rules mistakes that it just really puts me off.

**torblind**

Grimgold wrote:
I got the feeling that understrength units were so they could be nice to people just getting started that may not have enough models for a particular unit. As soon as people saw a rules advantage , they were like "yeah, guess not in matched play".

Also watched the miniwargaming faction focus batreps for necrons, the public one was kind of meh, and an object lesson on why we don't use sword and board lychguard anymore. But the one in the vault was pretty decent, and featured scytheguard taking apart Cawl.

Would warscythes on the lychguard have made a very big difference though? the terminators had 3++ save anyway, and you were wounding them on 3+ all the same. There is twice the damage though would have made every wound inflicted count double, but they would have withered down faster. But I feel the warscythes are somewhat wasted on 3++,

**skoffs**

In previous editions, the best weapons to use against 3++ saves were mass Tesla anything and Flayed Ones.
How's about this edition?
Maybe try mortal wounds?
(so C'tan and Deathmarks)

**Odrankt**

skoffs wrote:
In previous editions, the best weapons to use against 3++ saves were mass Tesla anything and Flayed Ones.
How's about this edition?
Maybe try mortal wounds?
(so C'tan and Deathmarks)

Wraiths equipped with Transdimensional Beamer deal mortal wound(s) on a 6+.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Odrankt wrote:
skoffs wrote:
In previous editions, the best weapons to use against 3++ saves were mass Tesla anything and Flayed Ones.
How's about this edition?
Maybe try mortal wounds?
(so C'tan and Deathmarks)

Wraiths equipped with Transdimensional Beamer deal mortal wound(s) on a 6+.

So do deathmarks though, and they have a great chance of inflicting them through sheer numbers

**skoffs**

What are the stats on 10 rapid fire range Deathmarks? How many 6s to wound would we be likely to see?

**Maelstrom808**

skoffs wrote:
What are the stats on 10 rapid fire range Deathmarks? How many 6s to wound would we be likely to see?

Not many. Even if you hit with every shot, 3-4. When all is said and done, 2 dead termies is probably a reasonable outcome. It can work if you have other stuff firing and/or charging them as well.