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I dont know about using assault characters unless they are really cheap or REALLY buff.

enemy assault is just as scary even normal stuff.

though i will say i had a single terminator chaplain sit in combat with a full unit of banshees for 3 turns while cutting them down to like 3 models.

Can someone point meas to why the deceiver-bomb with monolith doesn't work? I've seen it stated previously but must have missed an explanation somewhere.

I mean having a deceiver with a Monolith/Scythe and Zandrekh + Obyron. Redeploy the Monolith/Scythe, walk out with Zandrekh and Veil away the Lychguard (or choice of unit).

That way we can cut down the distance by:
Redeploy Mono/Scythe: 12''
Gate in Zandrekh: 9''
Veil Oby+Crew: 3''
Charge 2''

That is a valid move, correct?

arhurt wrote:
Can someone point meas to why the deceiver-bomb with monolith doesn't work? I've seen it stated previously but must have missed an explanation somewhere.

I mean having a deceiver with a Monolith/Scythe and Zandrekh + Obyron. Redeploy the Monolith/Scythe, walk out with Zandrekh and Veil away the Lychguard (or choice of unit).

That way we can cut down the distance by:
Redeploy Mono/Scythe: 12''
Gate in Zandrekh: 9''
Veil Oby+Crew: 3''
Charge 2''

That is a valid move, correct?

It does work as a telport bomb, but there are other downsides to it as an army build.

Better question - why are we using the Monolith for that bomb? I know it's the new hotness that a Monolith can actually be good, but doesn't the Night Scythe accomplish that bomb for like.....200 points cheaper?

I'm thinking Deceiver + Night Scythe + Lychguard = 9 inch turn 1 charge is pretty good for very little points investment, but of course the down side is that if you get seized on that thing could get lit up more easily. I just don't know if 200 points is a worthwhile investment for anti-alpha protection.

arhurt wrote:
Can someone point meas to why the deceiver-bomb with monolith doesn't work? I've seen it stated previously but must have missed an explanation somewhere.

I mean having a deceiver with a Monolith/Scythe and Zandrekh + Obyron. Redeploy the Monolith/Scythe, walk out with Zandrekh and Veil away the Lychguard (or choice of unit).

That way we can cut down the distance by:
Redeploy Mono/Scythe: 12''
Gate in Zandrekh: 9''
Veil Oby+Crew: 3''
Charge 2''

That is a valid move, correct?

The Deceiver Bomb with Monolith/Night Scythe and Zahndrekh+Obyron & Lychguard still totally works, but the one where it's just two Monoliths/Night Scythes that spit out two units of Lychguard isn't very good, because as someone realized a few pages back, despite both the Monolith and Night Scythe dropping off their "passengers" exactly like a transport does, those vehicles lack the "TRANSPORT" keyword, meaning any unit that enters the board via this method can't move again that turn.
So that means this

 luke1705 wrote:
I'm thinking Deceiver + Night Scythe + Lychguard = 9 inch turn 1 charge is pretty good

doesn't work out very well (9" is way too easy to fail, leaving your alpha strike stranded in enemy territory surrounded by angry guns, whereas the 2" charge with Zahn & Oby is guaranteed not to fail).
The only things that are guaranteed to be useful to your plans the same turn they "disembark" from a Mono/NS are shooting units (which can still be a valid tactic. A ton of Warriors/Immortals stepping out and laying out covering fire to weaken a target for Lychguard to smash into significantly increases the likelihood that you'll remove it from the table, especially if you brought a Stalker as part of the Deceiver's D3 Grand Illusion units).

Flayed ones may be the answer to the conscript problem! You can let your immortals move on to bigger and better things...

(Double check me here, I'm still a junior mathhammerer)

Flayed ones are <Dynasty>, WS 3+, S4, A4 and can be taken in units up to 20. So a whopping 80 attacks.

With MWBD they hit on 2+, so 66.66 hits

Wounding conscripts on 3+, rerolling failed, so 59.25 wounds (44.44 wounds, 22.22 misses, 14.81 rerolled wounds)

Armor save 5+, so 39.5 kills in a single fight phase?!

Sadly, they'll be overwatched by 100 lasgun shots if they're the first into the fray... I'll do that math real quick and edit the post

OK 50 conscripts overwatch 100 shots (S3 AP 0)

16.67 hits, 5.55 wounds (5+), 2.77 kills (sv 4+)

So I'll take the cautious route and say 3 dead flayers before the meatgrinding begins.

17 flayed ones = 68 attacks, 56.67 hits, 50.37 wounds, 33.58 kills. Still pretty gory.

Conscripts usually have orders, and that means 200 shots not 100. 1/3 to hit, 1/3 to damage, 1/2 to pass save, thats 10 flayed one dead, and thats more points than the entire 50 conscript blob...
But with the remaining 10 flayed one, you do "only" 16 unsaved wounds on average (hit on 2/3, wound on 8/9, pass sabe in 2/3), 17 after morales thanks to a commisar. And the punny humans will kill at least one more flayed one in mellee, even 3 if there are a nearly ministorum priest, before falling back and ley their second rank finish the job.

And everithing only if you overcome the charge of 9" or more after the deep strike, with a 70% of probable failure, even more than 50% of failure with a stratagem reroll.

Its a hard calle.

Overwatch is locked at 6 to hit, no modifiers allowed, right? So for 200 shots it would be 5 or 6 dead, not 10?

Obviously wouldn't be table-ing with flayed ones, but it could be enough to get them off the objective. You could try a lychguard or scarab charge first to eat shots, I'll try and find the minimum # of scarabs to safely charge, lychguard could maybe get in there without a casualty?

Yeah, its a natural 6 regardless of any modifiers, unless the weapon or rule explicitly states that it affects overwatch.

I think a modest D-bomb is going to be more effective than building an army around it. Just moving the Deceiver and two units that don't require any extra support into a more aggressive position and not relying on getting first turn. Canoptek units don't need support characters and move at a similar speed to a C'tan so...

Deceiver
9x Scarabs
6x Wraith

It's 570 points and can operate independent of the rest of the army. Grand Illusion onto a flank as the hammer to a phalanx's anvil. No charging 1st turn but it puts a ton of pressure on a flank for not a lot of points.

 skoffs wrote:
The Deceiver Bomb with Monolith/Night Scythe and Zahndrekh+Obyron & Lychguard still totally works, but the one where it's just two Monoliths/Night Scythes that spit out two units of Lychguard isn't very good, because as someone realized a few pages back, despite both the Monolith and Night Scythe dropping off their "passengers" exactly like a transport does, those vehicles lack the "TRANSPORT" keyword, meaning any unit that enters the board via this method can't move again that turn.

Since Tomb World deployment prevents you from moving after "disembarking-but-not-quite-disembarking", wouldn't it be better to use a Ghost Ark in this case?

The Deceiver (225 pts)
Zahndrekh (180 pts)
Obyron (151 pts)
Lychguard (300 pts)
Ghost Ark (170 pts)

Start Zahndrekh inside the Ghost Ark, teleport 12" away with the Deceiver's ability before first turn starts. Then first turn disembark with Zahndrekh, advance with him (average of 8" or so), end of movement phase use Obyron's ability on the Lychguard. Now the Lychguard are between 15-20" from where the Ghost Ark originally popped up, providing Zahndrekh can get there without going within 1" of other infantry. It's 1026 points, but if you roll well enough (or reroll into) with the deceiver you could have something like the deceiver, a ghost ark, Zahndrekh, Obyron, 10 Lychguard, 20 rapid firing Necron Warriors, and a 10 Tesla Immortal squad. The Tesla squad the following turn should be pretty gross if Zahndrekh is still alive and can MWBD them, and the Warriors get the help of the Ghost Ark with RP.

There's probably better combos to throw up with the lychguard should you roll well on the deceiver, but you get the idea.

Main issue is this still relies on going first to be extremely effective. This is not a guarantee seeing as we usually bring few transports. In addition there has been much talk about throwing out the "first to finish goes first" rule in favor of either a straight roll off, or a roll off with a +1 to the first to finish deployment.

 Kaeldran wrote:
Conscripts usually have orders, and that means 200 shots not 100. 1/3 to hit, 1/3 to damage, 1/2 to pass save, thats 10 flayed one dead, and thats more points than the entire 50 conscript blob...
But with the remaining 10 flayed one, you do "only" 16 unsaved wounds on average (hit on 2/3, wound on 8/9, pass sabe in 2/3), 17 after morales thanks to a commisar. And the punny humans will kill at least one more flayed one in mellee, even 3 if there are a nearly ministorum priest, before falling back and ley their second rank finish the job.

And everithing only if you overcome the charge of 9" or more after the deep strike, with a 70% of probable failure, even more than 50% of failure with a stratagem reroll.

Its a hard calle.

Ok, but if it's the case where Flayed Ones just deepstruck and are trying to charge the conscript unit, then the conscripts can't receive an order since it has to be done at the start of their shooting phase. The order also only lasts that phase as well so no spillover.

tman3257 wrote:
The Deceiver (225 pts)
Zahndrekh (180 pts)
Obyron (151 pts)
Lychguard (300 pts)
Ghost Ark (170 pts)

Start Zahndrekh inside the Ghost Ark, teleport 12" away with the Deceiver's ability before first turn starts. Then first turn disembark with Zahndrekh, advance with him (average of 8" or so), end of movement phase use Obyron's ability on the Lychguard. Now the Lychguard are between 15-20" from where the Ghost Ark originally popped up

Yep, that's one the ones we were discussing, and actually now the only one that's legal (for the time being).

I still think lots of shooty guys is the best thing to accompany a Deceiver Bomb. Ghost Ark will be okay for some minor support fire, but to inflict heavy casualties you're gonna need a lot more.
I've mentioned taking accompanying Deathmarks and either a Monolith/Night Scythe popping out some Immortals/Warriors or a Stalker paired with a Doomsday Ark on your side of the table with line of sight on the target you're after.

 Hakumei wrote:

Ok, but if it's the case where Flayed Ones just deepstruck and are trying to charge the conscript unit, then the conscripts can't receive an order since it has to be done at the start of their shooting phase. The order also only lasts that phase as well so no spillover.

Yes, thats true, and I had not taken this into account, no orders in the overwatch, thanks.

Even so, I believe that a charge after DP is too risky, but now I find it somehow more viable, thanks again.

Here's a balanced list built around the Deceiver that does not rely on going first and pulling a lychguard 1st turn charge, or some kind of alpha strike (because that's never going to be a good list):

Orikan
Anrakyr

20x Warriors

Deceiver
10x Lychguard + Scythes
T. Stalker + HGCs

6x Wraith
9x Scarabs

DDA
DDA

This gives a very hard to shift phalanx (Orikan, Anrakyr, Warriors + Lychguard), good long range fire support (DDAs + Stalker) and some fast moving assault (Scarabs, Wraith + C'tan).

The Grand Illusion ability can be used in a variety of effective ways with this list:

-C'tan + Wraith + Scarabs
Pretty scary when redeployed onto a flank together.

-C'tan + Orikan + Warriors
Going straight into rapid fire range on a flank, the warriors will be very hard to shift with Orikans support and the Deceivers heroic intervention.

-C'tan + Anrakyr + Lychguard
Very deadly, and durable when deployed in cover.

-C'tan + DDA + DDA
Not as balls out scary as the other combos but redeploying the DDAs to better firing positions is a solid option.


This is almost the opposite of the normal D-bomb as it gives a huge amount of flexibility, rather than forcing your whole army into one very specific strategy.

Can the deceiver move a ghost ark filled with warriors?

If you could guarantee two units then it would he perfect but I'm trying to think how to play for only rolling one.

 buddha wrote:
Can the deceiver move a ghost ark filled with warriors?

If you could guarantee two units then it would he perfect but I'm trying to think how to play for only rolling one.

Use a command point re-roll, that gives a 1/9 chance of only being able to move one unit. Any plan with the Deceiver should be made around shifting two units, 3 is gravy, 1 is unlikely to happen.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Here's a balanced list built around the Deceiver that does not rely on going first and pulling a lychguard 1st turn charge, or some kind of alpha strike (because that's never going to be a good list):

Spoiler:

Orikan
Anrakyr

20x Warriors

Deceiver
10x Lychguard + Scythes
T. Stalker + HGCs

6x Wraith
9x Scarabs

DDA
DDA

This gives a very hard to shift phalanx (Orikan, Anrakyr, Warriors + Lychguard), good long range fire support (DDAs + Stalker) and some fast moving assault (Scarabs, Wraith + C'tan).

The Grand Illusion ability can be used in a variety of effective ways with this list:

-C'tan + Wraith + Scarabs
Pretty scary when redeployed onto a flank together.

-C'tan + Orikan + Warriors
Going straight into rapid fire range on a flank, the warriors will be very hard to shift with Orikans support and the Deceivers heroic intervention.

-C'tan + Anrakyr + Lychguard
Very deadly, and durable when deployed in cover.

-C'tan + DDA + DDA
Not as balls out scary as the other combos but redeploying the DDAs to better firing positions is a solid option.


This is almost the opposite of the normal D-bomb as it gives a huge amount of flexibility, rather than forcing your whole army into one very specific strategy.

This is really going to be the way to do it I feel. I just don't see much value in the alpha strike gimmicks over a solid army exploiting the reposition for gains.

The "problem" in 8th (only played one game so far against Orcs) is that you can face pure vehicle armies or pure horde armies.
I don't see Necrons have any problems with hordes, but when it comes to vehicles our options are expensive which makes the army less effective against hordes.

In an all comers list the possibility to redeploy units is a huge benefit.

Wouldn't it be best to just use the Deceiver, in case you go first, to redeploy against a weak enemy flank and be able to match correct dakka to correct targets?
In case you go second you have the ability to move units out from line of sight and also change flank.

This way you don't build your army around the Grand Illusion and instead you can take whatever you want.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Can the deceiver move a ghost ark filled with warriors?

If you could guarantee two units then it would he perfect but I'm trying to think how to play for only rolling one.

Use a command point re-roll, that gives a 1/9 chance of only being able to move one unit. Any plan with the Deceiver should be made around shifting two units, 3 is gravy, 1 is unlikely to happen.

You can't really do averages on one dice, even with the reroll. Better to have your list with a good 1 redeploy option. Ghost Ark with Warriors is a good pick, or a Stalker isn't bad either.

Well, if you just wanted to get some guys in range to quickly threaten, the Deceiver moving 20 Warriors + a Ghost Ark (with Orikan and someone else inside) wouldn't exactly be a bad plan.
Get those two units, plus the Deceiver in place on a flank, your opponent's going to have to divert some attention to deal with them.
Only thing to be careful of is making sure you have fast enough stuff to get up the table to support them, otherwise they're not going to last long, even with 4+/5++/4+++.
I'd suggest a couple of Night Scythes starting on the table and two full Immortal squads in reserve. They can fly up and get in position on the other side of the table for a two side pincer attack in your turn two.

Requizen wrote:


You can't really do averages on one dice, even with the reroll. Better to have your list with a good 1 redeploy option. Ghost Ark with Warriors is a good pick, or a Stalker isn't bad either.

?? You obviously can do averages with one dice and the odds of failing the 3+ re-rolled to move 2 units is 1/9. Not that I disagree with you about having a list that can cope with rolling a one, that's one of the reasons the full on D-bomb is a bad list.

 skoffs wrote:

Yep, that's one the ones we were discussing, and actually now the only one that's legal (for the time being).

I must have missed this discussion. What makes redeploying a night scythe or the monolith illegal?

But I think you're right. I was going to go 20 warriors + GA with embarked characters, but I think that the GA can keep up (12" move + 3" aura for res orb or Orikan's ability should be ok, given that the warriors only need to move a few inches to get into rapid fire range, and the ghost ark can advance if need be.

I'm thinking just giving up the turn 1 charge entirely and having my Lychguard be almost guaranteed a turn 2 charge is fine (assuming my d3 roll is a 2 with my CP re-roll if need be) and also my warriors rapid firing turn 1 with a 5++, 4+ RP and a RP re-roll if necessary is pretty good.

Plus in my list, I have the nightbringer and 15 Wraiths in tow. Not too shabby for turn 2 plus if I can get a 3 on the d3, nightbringer has a guaranteed turn 2 charge also. Am liking this a lot

I had another game last night where I learnt a lot. The main takeaways for me were:

1) We can bring a decent amount of anti-tank if we want.
2) Doomsday Arks are very good all round units.
3) In 8th edition things die fast.

My list:

Orikan
Anrakyr

20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals

3x Heavy Deatroyers

T Stalker w/ HGCs
DDA
DDA
Anni Barge
Anni Barge


Orks:

Gazgul

2x 30 Boys

2x Battlewagons, each containing 10x Flash Gitz and 10x Lootas.

Shock Attack chap.


The Orks went first and those Battlewagons were ridiculous. They move 12" and the units inside count as stationary for shooting!! I lost 1 Anni barge, the Stalker and a whole unit of 10 Gauss Immortals before my first turn! We all agreed the Necrons were going to lose...

However, in the Necrons 1st turn the DDAs, HDs, Anni Barge and Anrakyrs Tacyon Arrow vaporized one Wagon and reduced the other to 3 wounds! The Tesla Immortals with MWBD slaughtered many an Ork, rendering one of the 30 man mobs ineffective.

The Ork shooting was much less effective from then on, killing the other Anni barge and knocking over a handful of warriors and Immortals a turn. As the remnants of their force got into close range the DDAs really shone. They switched from anti-tank to anti-infantry, moving 12" and using their flayers and low power cannon to hose the Orks.

I'm really liking the DDAs now. Heavy Destroyers do more damage to tanks (this is slighlty offset by the range and durability of the DDA), but taking the Arks mean that the huge amount of points we have to spend on anti-armor are not wasted when faced with hordes.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I had another game last night where I learnt a lot. The main takeaways for me were:

1) We can bring a decent amount of anti-tank if we want.
2) Doomsday Arks are very good all round units.
3) In 8th edition things die fast.

My list:

Orikan
Anrakyr

20 Warriors
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals

3x Heavy Deatroyers

T Stalker w/ HGCs
DDA
DDA
Anni Barge
Anni Barge


Orks:

Gazgul

2x 30 Boys

2x Battlewagons, each containing 10x Flash Gitz and 10x Lootas.

Shock Attack chap.


The Orks went first and those Battlewagons were ridiculous. They move 12" and the units inside count as stationary for shooting!! I lost 1 Anni barge, the Stalker and a whole unit of 10 Gauss Immortals before my first turn! We all agreed the Necrons were going to lose...

However, in the Necrons 1st turn the DDAs, HDs, Anni Barge and Anrakyrs Tacyon Arrow vaporized one Wagon and reduced the other to 3 wounds! The Tesla Immortals with MWBD slaughtered many an Ork, rendering one of the 30 man mobs ineffective.

The Ork shooting was much less effective from then on, killing the other Anni barge and knocking over a handful of warriors and Immortals a turn. As the remnants of their force got into close range the DDAs really shone. They switched from anti-tank to anti-infantry, moving 12" and using their flayers and low power cannon to hose the Orks.

I'm really liking the DDAs now. Heavy Destroyers do more damage to tanks (this is slighlty offset by the range and durability of the DDA), but taking the Arks mean that the huge amount of points we have to spend on anti-armor are not wasted when faced with hordes.

I agree on DDA here's what I'm running atm as my starter.

Battalion detachment (+3 CP)

Lord 84
- Warscythe

Cryptek 104
- staff of light

Warriors x 20 240
- gauss flayer

Warriors x 20 240
- gauss flayer

Immortals x 10 240
- Tesla

Triarch stalker 181
- Twin heavy gauss cannon
- Massive forelimbs

Deathmarks x 5 100
- Synaptic disintegrator

Scarabs x 5 65

Scarabs x 5 65

1319


Spearhead detachment (+1 CP)

Overlord 112
- Warscythe

Doomsday ark 203
- doomsday cannon
- 2 gauss flayer arrays

Doomsday ark 203
- doomsday cannon
- 2 gauss flayer arrays

Annihilation barge 153
- Twin tesla destructor
- Gauss cannon

671


1990


The HQ slots aren't for sure yet but I feel this might be a decent all around list.

A Ghost Ark would be really Nice for those 20 man blobs, and if you can find the points Orikan is a big improvement over the normal Cryptek.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
A Ghost Ark would be really Nice for those 20 man blobs.

I had them in there at one point. But the more games I see/play with them the more I feel like they aren't needed. The cryptek and lord should be more then enough to keep them around for a few turns

A vitally important question that everyone needs to weigh in on with maths and examples:

Tesla or Gauss for the underslung weapon on an Anni Barge?

Welp made a dumb list for 1k points

Overlord with void blade (i think i can take it maybe)
Night bringer
Necron warriors 10
Immortals Gauss 5
Wraiths 3
Monolith

its probably not a good list. (but its what i have and what i want for a soul storm list) i cant fit the Staff of light or the war scythe which bums me out.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
A vitally important question that everyone needs to weigh in on with maths and examples:

Tesla or Gauss for the underslung weapon on an Anni Barge?

From my games tesla all the way. It is complimentary in strength and range and also means no -1 to hit if you move. Indeed, that new 12" move makes them great for kitting or relocating so guns that don't get penalized are golden.