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2017/06/15 22:36:46
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
Caveat 1: Both I and my opponent brought 7th ed lists. Intentionally, his was Eldar Craftworld, mine was Necron Decurion, roughly balanced by power level.
This makes the rest of the battle report null both for bringing a 7th edition list and for using power level as a point system.
Note: I predict that players are going to eventually prove the power level army build system is completely broken.
Paradigm for a happy relationship with Games Workshop: Burn the books and take the models to a different game.
2017/06/15 23:20:29
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
There are people in my playgroup who are trying to push for the power rules as the norm. An issue is the honor upgrade system because Power is "balanced" at 50% unit upgrades. I know they will attempt to run odd number units to max, meta at will, and do other shenanigans with invisible point upgrades and mods. I think it is funny to paint models for 1,000+ hours and then not have the time to make a complete list...
Edit:
Compare the equipment "upgrade" potential of an equivalent SM and Necron Warrior Unit... that is sort of a joke!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/15 23:35:18
Paradigm for a happy relationship with Games Workshop: Burn the books and take the models to a different game.
2017/06/15 23:48:56
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
Speaking of lists. i cant find points for other war gears so my list is a little off for now. its under 2k
warscythe overlord
warscythe d lord
10 warriors
5 man ass immortals
5 man ass immortals
night bringer
3 tranny beam wraiths
9 scarab base
9 scarab base
monolith
2 spyders with particle beamers
3 heavy destroyers
once i get book in had i will figure out if i have enough for gloom prisms and res orbs
as it is the plan was to screen up with the scarabs, have the night bringer move up. deep strike the monolith some where in the back field targeting anti tank stuff t2 bring in a unit of immortals to go grab an objective. then figure out the rest of target priorities from there.
Silver Tide versus shooty horde armies probably needs more than one Ghost Ark. The Ark takes RP for the unit to 75%, and doing that to two units a turn is probably what you need to weather the storm of lasgun fire. A second Overlord might be necessary too - I think MWBD on two silver blobs a turn sounds right
From that Silver tide list above I'd probably drop one blob and add a second ghost Ark. I'd like that second Overlord, but I think that list needs the three Crypteks so IDK where I'd get the points. More dakka is probably better than a second buff anyway.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
2017/06/16 02:57:43
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
Fenris-77 wrote: Silver Tide versus shooty horde armies probably needs more than one Ghost Ark. The Ark takes RP for the unit to 75%, and doing that to two units a turn is probably what you need to weather the storm of lasgun fire. A second Overlord might be necessary too - I think MWBD on two silver blobs a turn sounds right
From that Silver tide list above I'd probably drop one blob and add a second ghost Ark. I'd like that second Overlord, but I think that list needs the three Crypteks so IDK where I'd get the points. More dakka is probably better than a second buff anyway.
That's what I was talking about when I said we needed to find the best balance of guys and support for guys.
Is it better to use points to give maximum support for Warriors,
Or to use those points to get more Warriors?
An Overlord may give one unit of your guys a +1 to hit, but he costs as much as 10 more guys. What's better, better odds of hitting or more shots? (I'm gonna assume more shots).
A Cryptek + Ghost Ark can increase the chances more guys stand up, but they cost almost as much as 23 more guys. What's better, having more guys be able to stand up, or just straight up having more guys? (again, I'm going to guess the latter).
2017/06/16 05:32:37
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
I will be bringing a DDA, A Ghost Ark and a pair of scythes that are modded to be either doom or night as needed, I'm hoping to try them both.
Trial and Error is the only way to find out what works. Hopefully your outcome will be better.
That is the idea.
Well thats true. But just because a list isn't good against Eldar does not mean it wouldn't hold up against Orks, Nurgle, Ad Mech etc. Every army has Pros and Cons and we just got to find a way to make an army/list that can hold up against other armies.
I think that for objects that are on our side should be protects by low number Warriors, Sypders, H.Destroyers, Stalkers, DDA arks. Objects on the opponents side should be targeted by deepstriking and fast units like Tomb Blades, Wraiths, Scarabs, Praetorians, Flayed Ones, Deathmarks. I like the Idea of deploying a monolith on top of an objective thats mid-table or on my opponents side. It will take a lot of wounds but last long enough to distract my opponent and hopefully get my crons in better positions and good numbers. Our movement is slow af for the majority of the units/models but were better off having our opponent come towards us then have our crons chase them and get picked off 1 by 1. Imo of course.
While not everyone can field the amount of AP-3 and AP-4 as the Eldar do, I rather expect that had I deep struck a monolith on turn one he would have dropped six bright lances, all the starcannons and the D-Cannon on his wraithlord into it, plus possibly a smite or two and wrecked it in a single turn. It's possible that I'm being overly pessimistic, but I honestly don't feel like I'm overstating how quickly the damage piles on. Doing D6's and D3's and just plain 3's worth of wounds adds up really quickly.
Caveat 1: Both I and my opponent brought 7th ed lists. Intentionally, his was Eldar Craftworld, mine was Necron Decurion, roughly balanced by power level.
This makes the rest of the battle report null both for bringing a 7th edition list and for using power level as a point system.
Note: I predict that players are going to eventually prove the power level army build system is completely broken.
You are of course free to ignore my experiences at your leisure. I only posted it to add to the pile of information available. I look forward to hearing your batreps once 8th formally drops and we can openly play 8th in official venues.
We tried, somewhat, to mitigate the abuses of power levels by playing WYSIWYG, but in that respect the fact that Necrons are not a very flexible army in terms of loadouts was a signficant issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tokhuah wrote: There are people in my playgroup who are trying to push for the power rules as the norm. An issue is the honor upgrade system because Power is "balanced" at 50% unit upgrades. I know they will attempt to run odd number units to max, meta at will, and do other shenanigans with invisible point upgrades and mods. I think it is funny to paint models for 1,000+ hours and then not have the time to make a complete list...
Edit:
Compare the equipment "upgrade" potential of an equivalent SM and Necron Warrior Unit... that is sort of a joke!
You can try what we did, which is 'if playing power levels, stricly enfore WYSIWYG'. It doesn't halt abuses of the system, but it mitigates it somewhat.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I feel like I need to reemphasise this as it didn't come through properly in my last post.
In the previous edition, an AP4 weapon could be largely ignored by immortals, destroyers and other things with a 3+ save. You'd alway get that 3+ save, and if you failed, you immediately rolled RP, and under normal circumstances you had a 50% chance of the model not being removed. If you took ten unsaved wounds on an immortal squad, odds are you wouln't lose the squad. Now, you DO lose the squad, entirely.
Those same weapons, which many armies can field, now give you a 6+ save. This vastly increases the scope of the weapons that can be fired to good effect at units, and because units are removed and don't get a chance to come back till your next turn removing a unit isn't that difficult.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/06/16 05:45:12
What do you think about new Resuraction Orb? It was so expensive. You must get at least 3 warrior back and it working only after normal RP roll. So with cryptek aura unit must lose at least 12 warrior... With only warrior infrantry it can be hard to use it wisely.
2017/06/16 11:43:34
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
I will be bringing a DDA, A Ghost Ark and a pair of scythes that are modded to be either doom or night as needed, I'm hoping to try them both.
Trial and Error is the only way to find out what works. Hopefully your outcome will be better.
That is the idea.
Well thats true. But just because a list isn't good against Eldar does not mean it wouldn't hold up against Orks, Nurgle, Ad Mech etc. Every army has Pros and Cons and we just got to find a way to make an army/list that can hold up against other armies.
I think that for objects that are on our side should be protects by low number Warriors, Sypders, H.Destroyers, Stalkers, DDA arks. Objects on the opponents side should be targeted by deepstriking and fast units like Tomb Blades, Wraiths, Scarabs, Praetorians, Flayed Ones, Deathmarks. I like the Idea of deploying a monolith on top of an objective thats mid-table or on my opponents side. It will take a lot of wounds but last long enough to distract my opponent and hopefully get my crons in better positions and good numbers. Our movement is slow af for the majority of the units/models but were better off having our opponent come towards us then have our crons chase them and get picked off 1 by 1. Imo of course.
While not everyone can field the amount of AP-3 and AP-4 as the Eldar do, I rather expect that had I deep struck a monolith on turn one he would have dropped six bright lances, all the starcannons and the D-Cannon on his wraithlord into it, plus possibly a smite or two and wrecked it in a single turn. It's possible that I'm being overly pessimistic, but I honestly don't feel like I'm overstating how quickly the damage piles on. Doing D6's and D3's and just plain 3's worth of wounds adds up really quickly.
Caveat 1: Both I and my opponent brought 7th ed lists. Intentionally, his was Eldar Craftworld, mine was Necron Decurion, roughly balanced by power level.
This makes the rest of the battle report null both for bringing a 7th edition list and for using power level as a point system.
Note: I predict that players are going to eventually prove the power level army build system is completely broken.
You are of course free to ignore my experiences at your leisure. I only posted it to add to the pile of information available. I look forward to hearing your batreps once 8th formally drops and we can openly play 8th in official venues.
We tried, somewhat, to mitigate the abuses of power levels by playing WYSIWYG, but in that respect the fact that Necrons are not a very flexible army in terms of loadouts was a signficant issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tokhuah wrote: There are people in my playgroup who are trying to push for the power rules as the norm. An issue is the honor upgrade system because Power is "balanced" at 50% unit upgrades. I know they will attempt to run odd number units to max, meta at will, and do other shenanigans with invisible point upgrades and mods. I think it is funny to paint models for 1,000+ hours and then not have the time to make a complete list...
Edit:
Compare the equipment "upgrade" potential of an equivalent SM and Necron Warrior Unit... that is sort of a joke!
You can try what we did, which is 'if playing power levels, stricly enfore WYSIWYG'. It doesn't halt abuses of the system, but it mitigates it somewhat.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I feel like I need to reemphasise this as it didn't come through properly in my last post.
In the previous edition, an AP4 weapon could be largely ignored by immortals, destroyers and other things with a 3+ save. You'd alway get that 3+ save, and if you failed, you immediately rolled RP, and under normal circumstances you had a 50% chance of the model not being removed. If you took ten unsaved wounds on an immortal squad, odds are you wouln't lose the squad. Now, you DO lose the squad, entirely.
Those same weapons, which many armies can field, now give you a 6+ save. This vastly increases the scope of the weapons that can be fired to good effect at units, and because units are removed and don't get a chance to come back till your next turn removing a unit isn't that difficult.
Kuguar6 wrote: What do you think about new Resuraction Orb? It was so expensive. You must get at least 3 warrior back and it working only after normal RP roll. So with cryptek aura unit must lose at least 12 warrior... With only warrior infrantry it can be hard to use it wisely.
Which is why you want to use it to bring back destroyers and lychguard. One of those pays for the orb.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2017/06/16 14:16:11
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
Warriors x15
Tesla Immortals x10
Tesla Immortals x10
Heavy Destroyers x3
Doomsday Ark
That's right, double C'tan all day. Thank you 8th.
Highlights include:
I got to go first and got a 3 on the Deceiver, moving the Stalker, a unit of Immortals, the Deceiver, and the Overlord up the field 12" away from one of this Leman Russes.
Bubble wrapping the Cryptek/Nightbringer on my backfield kept them safe from a big Genestealer charge. Tesla Overwatch also wrecked 1/3 of the unit. (5/15). They died immediately after of course, but then the Nightbringer counterattacked for a lot of damage.
Deathmarks dropped a bunch of Plasma Command Scions and a Tempestor Prime, crippling his Alpha Strike. For 100 per min unit, they're stellar in this edition of DS galore. They then went on to drop a Broodlord (Primarch? Whatever) and more Scions later.
Heat Stalker was... ok. Illusioning him forward made him eat a lot of fire, but he survived well, ate a charge, and then went on to pop a couple more models by himself. But I feel like I could have gotten a lot more mileage out of just more foot dudes teleporting forward? Probably depends on the army he's facing.
Overall, extremely fun game. 2 C'tan is probably overkill, but it's cool to see them both on the table, and the redeploy is pretty interesting if nothing else. However, it's hard to justify splitting up the Phalanx, especially if the opponent has Reserves that are going to come in and threaten your now split army. Must be used with caution.
2017/06/16 15:15:56
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Will my battlescribe android app magically transfer to 8th ed now or do I have to wait / do something?
If your Battlescribe app is up to date, you should just have to refresh your data sources, and it should find the new 8th ed repo without any other work. Mine was just a couple taps.
2017/06/16 15:48:23
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
What do you think, should we make a new thread now that the game's been released, or can we just keep going with this one, updating the title/top so people can find relevant info?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and anyone getting/know what the Forge World books have in store for us?
(let us know as soon, a lot of lists may be hinging on the gaps they can fill for us)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/16 15:50:17
2017/06/16 15:59:24
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Will my battlescribe android app magically transfer to 8th ed now or do I have to wait / do something?
If your Battlescribe app is up to date, you should just have to refresh your data sources, and it should find the new 8th ed repo without any other work. Mine was just a couple taps.
Thanks!
2017/06/16 15:59:47
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
They're up for preorder now, available next weekend. So, I'd imagine maybe leaks middle of next week? But FW is a bit different for releases so maybe not (haven't seen any for the current Imperial/Chaos IAs that are coming out tomorrow).
2017/06/16 18:30:23
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
No but seriously,
Someone should really run the numbers to see our buffing units (eg. Overlords, Destroyer Lords, Ghost Arks, Crypteks, T.Stalkers) are worth their points vs just adding equivalent points in guys to your army.
Eg.
An Overlord (119 points) grants MWBD to a unit of 10 Immortals. Would that be more effective than just his point cost in 7 extra Immortals (119 points) adding to the shooting?
A Cryptek and a Ghost Ark (274 points) keep near 20 Warriors. Would they be better than just having an extra 23 Warriors (276 points) on the table in the first place?
A Destroyer Lord (142) hangs with 3 Heavy Destroyers. Would him letting them reroll their 1s to wound be better than just adding another 2 Heavies (150) instead?
etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/16 19:02:55
2017/06/16 19:07:36
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
skoffs wrote: No but seriously,
Someone should really run the numbers to see our buffing units (eg. Overlords, Destroyer Lords, Ghost Arks, Crypteks) are worth their points vs just adding equivalent points in guys to your army.
Eg. an Overlord grants MWBD to a unit of 10 Immortals. Would that be more effective than just his point cost in extra Immortals adding to the shooting?
Well, the thing is that Characters are more than flat number changers. You can math out how many points MWBD is worth, but the Overlord is a pretty good beatstick. I've had opponents be more wary about charging because he might Heroically Intervene and cut down things. And then he also makes that unit better in combat, because MWBD also affects their WS.
Likewise, with the Cryptek, you can math out how many models have to roll a 4 before the buff is worth it, but the 5++ makes your dudes even harder to shift, and his Staff of Light makes him an Immortal and a half in shooting plus a decent puncher in melee. 5++ making things not die also makes it harder to die to Morale.
It's a bit more nebulous. I would say we shouldn't spam characters, but at least one Cryptek is probably worth taking, maybe 2 if you're expecting to spread out more, and then figure out what points you have left for HQs. You have to take at least 1, will probably take 2-3 for detachments, so just think from that standpoint. We're not Guard though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/16 19:08:25
Do you know that characters cant´be target by charging unit when they made Heroic Intervention? Cos charging units can target only enemy units they charge. This make c´tans and especialy night bringer very strong counter against enemy charges. Scarabs protecting c´tan (they are fastets and has fly - so can escape even when suronded by consolidation) are even bigger protecting wall against alfa strike cc armies. He will hit chargers in cc and in our turn fly out. Heroic intervention has so much potentiial in 8 edition. Bad that CCB is not char :-(
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/16 19:20:46
Rezolut wrote: Do you know that characters cant´be target by charging unit when they made Heroic Intervention? Cos charging units can target only enemy units they charge. This make c´tans and especialy night bringer very strong counter against enemy charges. Scarabs protecting c´tan (they are fastets and has fly - so can escape even when suronded by consolidation) are even bigger protecting wall against alfa strike cc armies. He will hit chargers in cc and in our turn fly out. Heroic intervention has so much potentiial in 8 edition. Bad that CCB is not char :-(
You can target them. All you need is to be within 12" of the model to declare a charge, even if you can't legally move to it with a 12" roll, so you almost always declare the charge anyway because of what exactly you described.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and anyone getting/know what the Forge World books have in store for us?
(let us know as soon, a lot of lists may be hinging on the gaps they can fill for us)
These are the items from the forge world book
Cron army list / data sheets
Canoptic tomb stalker
" acanthrites
" tomb sentinel
night shroud
sentry pylon
tomb citadel
Tesserae the ark
Kutlakh the world killer
Toholk the blinded
Gauss pylon
Cron war gear / points values
I'm awaiting this book been released as well :/
( so far it seems it's missing the flayed ones and scarabs but hoping the data sheets or army lists will give some rules and or extras for these)
Kuguar6 wrote:So now i can charge without line of sign? For example wraiths can charge through the wall? What with overwatch in that case?
In 7 i must have line of sign to charge.
Correct, you do not need Line of Sight. You can charge around corners or even through walls if you're Infantry type.
Drewtavian wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and anyone getting/know what the Forge World books have in store for us?
(let us know as soon, a lot of lists may be hinging on the gaps they can fill for us)
These are the items from the forge world book
Cron army list / data sheets
Canoptic tomb stalker
" acanthrites
" tomb sentinel
night shroud
sentry pylon
tomb citadel
Tesserae the ark
Kutlakh the world killer
Toholk the blinded
Gauss pylon
Cron war gear / points values
I'm awaiting this book been released as well :/
( so far it seems it's missing the flayed ones and scarabs but hoping the data sheets or army lists will give some rules and or extras for these)
Again, nobody knows. We'll know on the 24th when the book comes out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/16 20:18:32
2017/06/16 21:04:10
Subject: New Necron Tactica Thread - 8th ed. leak discussion pg.25 / new stats mathhammer pg.29
I don't think staffs of light are very good, certainly not worth 6 times the cost of a hyperphase sword for what will normally be 1 round of shooting before the thing is dead or in close combat. With a sword an overlord is only 104 points so roughly 6 immortals, 6 and a half if you take a scythe instead, and he buffs 10 tesla immortals to do 30 hits up from 20 unbuffed so he's worth about 5 immortals in shooting. The other 20ish point discrepancy between him and just buying 6 more immortals is surely worth his monster stat line and invulnerable save.
A ghost ark comes with 10 warriors worth of flayer array shooting, so it's kind of down to how often you think you can activate its ability for 50 points. 1 or 2 times probably not worth it, 3+ times probably worth it. So i'd guess if you have at least 2 full warrior blobs you'll be able to trigger it 3+ times or the opponent is dedicating all their shooting toward your cheapest models which is probably fine either way, but if you only have 1 blob or a couple 10-15 size squads that isn't hard for most armies to focus down and make the ark's 50 point tax a waste.
A Cryptek is harder to math hammer out because it's really hard to say what kind of weapons in what quantities you're going to be hit with and your composition matters like immortals with their 3+ save are less likely to need a 5++ because there's very little -3 ap weapons, that kind of thing. I still think staffs of light are bad though so I'd normally go for szeras or orikan if you want one.
~4100
~1660
