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Technomancer: ... I don't see what the problem was.


Anyway, it looks like we can expect to see competitive Necron armies constituting of mainly Warriors and Heavy Destroyers, as those appear to be our "most effective" units.

I took a stab at it myself- for 9 Command Points, it doesn't look too bad.
With no vehicles your opponent's anti armor stuff will be slightly wasted.
The troop units all cost relatively the same amount so can be subbed out for more Warriors or Immortals easily, depending on the situation.
...
Still think it's a little too boring looking, though. (but that's apparently how we play, now: slow grind)

With quantum shielding, isn't his anti vehicle stuff largely wasted anyway?

Also his -3 D6 dmg anti vehicle stuff is perfectly suited for one shot killing heavy destroyers, need to pull off 3 though to keep them down

torblind wrote:
With quantum shielding, isn't his anti vehicle stuff largely wasted anyway?

Also his -3 D6 dmg anti vehicle stuff is perfectly suited for one shot killing heavy destroyers, need to pull off 3 though to keep them down

Thats Thunder hammer territory. stay far away from that.

torblind wrote:
With quantum shielding, isn't his anti vehicle stuff largely wasted anyway?

Also his -3 D6 dmg anti vehicle stuff is perfectly suited for one shot killing heavy destroyers, need to pull off 3 though to keep them down

Well, could always replace all the Destroyers and Scarabs with an Overlord, two Stalkers and a Doomsday Ark?
Leaves no screening units, though... Would it be worth losing a Warrior from each unit to throw in some Scarabs?

I feel there are devils in the details regarding the concept of a screening unit. Is it correct that lets say a unit of 20 genestealers could simply move up to within 1" of the scarabs, declare a multicharge, and then just rush past them to attack the juicier targets behind? Perhaps leaving one model to deal with the speed bump?

Or I could put my scarabs <1" apart, but would now only cover some 7-8" width perhaps?

Are there ways to maximize their potensial? Keeping them ahead by a certain length from the units they protect behind?

For 2500pts, this is what I'm testing out on my next game:



Obviously, there are some limitations with objective mission, mainly with The Relic, but nothing that can't be overcome, I think. CCBs are normally are a pretty suboptimal choice, but in this particular list, they are the only HQ that really makes any sense.

No Spyder (at last one) to dispell psionic and repair from behind the corner ?

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

Spoiler:

For 2500pts, this is what I'm testing out on my next game:

CCB w/ tesla and warscythe
CCB w/ tesla and warscythe

Stalker w/ heavy gauss
Stalker w/ heavy gauss

7X Scarabs
7X Scarabs

8X DDA

Obviously, there are some limitations with objective mission, mainly with The Relic, but nothing that can't be overcome, I think. CCBs are normally are a pretty suboptimal choice, but in this particular list, they are the only HQ that really makes any sense.

Maybe turn one of those DDA into a third Stalker and split those Scarabs up into 4 units and you'll be able to go after multiple objectives more easily.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
For 2500pts, this is what I'm testing out on my next game:

CCB w/ tesla and warscythe
CCB w/ tesla and warscythe

Stalker w/ heavy gauss
Stalker w/ heavy gauss

7X Scarabs
7X Scarabs

8X DDA

Obviously, there are some limitations with objective mission, mainly with The Relic, but nothing that can't be overcome, I think. CCBs are normally are a pretty suboptimal choice, but in this particular list, they are the only HQ that really makes any sense.

ItS is good HQ for such army. You can also get less point HQ like lord. Sounds good.

So like, why is the Transcendent Ctan more expensive than the Nightbringer? And why is the Tesseract Vault only T7? Do they want to not sell more of that kit? Because that's how you don't sell more of that kit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also just noticed an Overlord can take a Hyperphase sword (ap-3 d1) for 3 points, or can take a Voidblade (ap-3, d1) for 6 points. However will I choose??

Hyperphase sword have also reroll failed wound. So its even better.
No one care.

 krodarklorr wrote:
So like, why is the Transcendent Ctan more expensive than the Nightbringer? And why is the Tesseract Vault only T7? Do they want to not sell more of that kit?

Because they want you to use it like it was in the last edition. Run it down your opponents throat and hope they blow it up and deal a bomb of mortal wounds all around it on an easy 4+.
If they don't and ignore it well it can spam 3 of the same power so mortal wounds every turn.

I don't think it is tournament worthy but I think it is at least fieldable now for fun games.

Pyrothem wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So like, why is the Transcendent Ctan more expensive than the Nightbringer? And why is the Tesseract Vault only T7? Do they want to not sell more of that kit?

Because they want you to use it like it was in the last edition. Run it down your opponents throat and hope they blow it up and deal a bomb of mortal wounds all around it on an easy 4+.
If they don't and ignore it well it can spam 3 of the same power so mortal wounds every turn.

I don't think it is tournament worthy but I think it is at least fieldable now for fun games.

Its too big lottery. 4+ for hit, 2d6" range and d6 dmg. You never now is it worth.

Kuguar6 wrote:
Hyperphase sword have also reroll failed wound. So its even better.
No one care.

Hyperphase sword does not do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kuguar6 wrote:

Pyrothem wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So like, why is the Transcendent Ctan more expensive than the Nightbringer? And why is the Tesseract Vault only T7? Do they want to not sell more of that kit?

Because they want you to use it like it was in the last edition. Run it down your opponents throat and hope they blow it up and deal a bomb of mortal wounds all around it on an easy 4+.
If they don't and ignore it well it can spam 3 of the same power so mortal wounds every turn.

I don't think it is tournament worthy but I think it is at least fieldable now for fun games.

Its too big lottery. 4+ for hit, 2d6" range and d6 dmg. You never now is it worth.

Yeah it's too expensive for a random bomb. Its nowhere near fieldable in my opinion.

Kuguar6 wrote:
Hyperphase sword have also reroll failed wound. So its even better.
No one care.

Perhaps no one cares because it does not do that?

3 round Tournament with Necrons yesterday. I had:

Overlord - Warscythe
Cryptek

Warriors x15
Tesla Immortals x10
Tesla Immortals x10

Deathmarks x5
Deathmarks x5
Deceiver

Scarabs x5
Scarabs x5
Scarabs x4

Heavy Destroyers x3
Doomsday Ark

Doom Scythe

Round 1 vs 4 Knights. Managed to pop two Knights in the first two to turns, but then the Doom Scythe and Doomsday Arks died (mostly because I forgot about QS on the Ark). Chipped down another one and won on objectives.

Round 2 vs the most disgusting Daemon list I've seen yet. Lord of Change, 2 CSM Princes, Changeling, 3 Flamer Chariots, a Renegade Knight, and then like 10 - 12 units of Brimstones with a Blue Horror in each. Whole army other than the Knight had 4++, and he could cast Smite nearly 20 times. Sure Blues only cast on one die, but that doesn't matter when you chuck down that many of them and cover the board. That dude went undefeated.

Round 3 vs Sisters. Holy butts they're actually good now. Immolator spam filled with Flamer and Melta chicks supported by Celestine. I had enough anti tank to pop a couple tanks, but then he just rolled up and it was like 14d6 auto hit S5 AP-1 per turn, or Meltas on the big things. And Celestine is insanely powerful. Truly brutal. He tabled myself and one other opponent and only lost Relic due to shenanigans. Sisters honestly scare the crap out of me.

So 1-2. Not sure how I'm feeling on Crons. Everything killy is very expensive (and unreliable to boot), and everything affordable is just spammy dudes with no way to kill big things. I have a couple more lists to try but after seeing the things that were winning I have no idea how they would perform.

Deceiver almost feels like a trap. Putting things far up the board in the hope to be on objectives or to slow down the enemy just splits up the phalanx. Our stuff needs to be all together in a clump to get the max efficiency, so unless you're using it for a bomb or maybe for like QS spam stuff (putting ABarges/Stalkers in range?), I think the theory is a bit more exciting than the practice.

Doom Scythe is garbage. Straight up.

Everything else was fine, it just was far from an optimized list. Still felt like I was punching above my weight class all three games, only won the first one with some lucky shooting on T1.

So just finished my first game of 8th. Absolutely love it. Such a massive improvement in almost every way.

I ran against a blob spam guard list, with two wyverns, a basalisk and a manticore, two flamer tanks, and 8 HWT's. Imperial Guard get alot of models for 2k points.

I ran a list that was actually quite effective.



I ended up winning the game on points (19-7) but I only had a full health DDA, half health C'tan, full health O/Lord and a 3/4 health unit of immortals. He ran out of time, and couldnt table me by the end (and didnt have the guns to reach/see me to table).

MWBD tesla immortals are DIRTY!!! was averaging 24-30 tesla shots a turn.

Cover is huge, I found I didn't need the chronometron from the cryptek almost at all. Deepstriking in flayed ones and deathmarks took a whole half the boards shooting (wyvern with 4D6 and multiple HWT) and having a 2+ or 3+ armour save is very very strong.

The Deceivers redeploy was immensely helpful. I had 40 warriors in rapid fire range T1. I rerolled to get a 6, didnt but still got 2. By T2 my cryptek and lord were buffing the unit.

I only got one really good RP, most of the stuff either failed or didnt get to RP. I didn't respect his plasma HWT, as they took 10w off a GA in one turn. (They are way more efficient at killing than lascannons due to Quantam Shielding). Rolling 7-8 1's a turn to negate damage that ignores armour is brutal.

After the GA was dead, he focused his whole army into my two warrior blobs, and they died. I really wished I had kept come command points (will do in future) for auto passing morale. It is vital to keeping the warriors alive.

The stalker and DDA combo, while the stalker didn't help too much, only granting one reroll for the DDA the whole game, I found together they did huge damage. I dropped a wyvern to 5w in 1 turn, effectively neutering it as it was hitting on 5+ after that.

The combo came so close to one shotting a Basalisk, had 1 wound left that the two SoL finished off next turn.

Deployment helps against gunline horde (IG) and so does maelstrom, two things they have always struggled with. The new maps force them into strange positions, not being able to screen properly as there is just too many units to fit in the lines to do it properly.

I love my crons. I had my doubts but they are not as bad as people are saying.

Our big guns are really good, and our warriors are brutal.

So we're all in agreement, then?

Silver Tide and QS Wall are our "competitive" builds?
(with honorable mention going to the Deceiver and Tesla Immortals+MWBD)

Thus far everything else just doesn't seem like it can stand up to all the power builds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Klowny wrote:
Deepstriking in flayed ones and deathmarks took a whole half the boards shooting (wyvern with 4D6 and multiple HWT) and having a 2+ or 3+ armour save is very very strong.

How did they (Deathmarks and Flayed Ones) actually perform?
We're they just distraction, or did they actually contribute something meaningful to the game?

 skoffs wrote:
So we're all in agreement, then?

Silver Tide and QS Wall are our "competitive" builds?
(with honorable mention going to the Deceiver and Tesla Immortals+MWBD)

Thus far everything else just doesn't seem like it can stand up to all the power builds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Klowny wrote:
Deepstriking in flayed ones and deathmarks took a whole half the boards shooting (wyvern with 4D6 and multiple HWT) and having a 2+ or 3+ armour save is very very strong.

How did they (Deathmarks and Flayed Ones) actually perform?
We're they just distraction, or did they actually contribute something meaningful to the game?

Whelp my flayed ones didnt do any damage as is customary playing my friends IG. I initially was going to bring the monolith, but it meant not enough models on the board. The deathmarks should have killed a captain that was stopping his moral losses, but I rolled sub par.

Deathmarks deepstriking into 2+ cover is very good, they tanked a whoooooooooole lot of punishment, which I was not expecting.

Cannot stress how much cover helps us, especially considering the decievers redeploy. Putting massive warrior blobs into cover makes them 3+/5++/4+++ double tapping RP makes them very hard to displace, and this is all in rapid fire range. They absolutely melt HWT, most infantry tbh.

The GA should have survived longer, and would have swung the game hard in my favour. That and blowing my last CP on rerolls for damage for the DDA (admittedly it did almost one shot the basalisk) was what brought it so close to the line because it meant my warriors died when they really shouldnt.

It did take his whole armies firepower to destroy 32 warriors kek.

But for future reference, ALWAYS keep CP in reserve for auto passing morale if your running warrior spam. It helps more than any other buff. Guard can put out a lot of shots, so maybe i took a disproportionate amount of damage, but once the casualties start to rack up it gets harder and harder to pass morale.

But yea, I went up against a moderately heavy vehicle list, granted they are only 11-14w apiece, but I did manage to blow up 4 of his main tanks with just a DDA and a stalker, and the DDA wasnt even targeting them for the last 3 turns.... Our heavy weapon options are fine and work well guys, chill your beans.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Kuguar6 wrote:
Hyperphase sword have also reroll failed wound. So its even better.
No one care.

Hyperphase sword does not do that.

Necrons wargear row color produce my mistake. Its under Flayer Claws and have same color.

So getting ready for my first GT of 8th ed, kicking around lists right now. My initial plan is to bring a deceiver bomb, but that trick doesn't work on everybody, because there are some armies that I do not want to be closer to. So I need another trick to fall back on, that works with a matryoshka style deceiver bomb lists. Here is my idea so far, I do a four drop with the first night scythe (Night scythe + Warriors + immortals + Lord), for a total of eight drops which should be very competitive for the first turn. I ended up taking a patrol detachment because I wanted to skip the extra HQ and troop tax for a battalion, it leaves me short on CP with only three, but I think it will be worth it for trimming the fat off of the list.

Plan A is crossing the T, deceiver and the two night scythes drop on an opponent's flank, the night scythes drop the immortals and Warriors, and then everyone get to work on crushing the flank. The rest of my army will stick in my deployment zone providing fire support screened by scarabs with wraiths to handle counter charges. This will be brutal rapid fire Knife fight where I have an advantage in concentration and my opponent can either fall back and secede board control to me, or feed me his army one chunk at a time.

Plan b is encirclement, this is for the armies I don't want to get too close to, once again I use the deceiver to drop the night scythes but they are placed at 24" from the main body on opposite flanks. the troops disembark, and then the night scythes get some distance making multi charges impossible. The rest of my forces spread out in the deployment zone with the scarabs and wraiths blocking. Should form a nice circle which will deny multi-charges and consolidations into other units. It also forces him to spread out or pick targets, either of which work to my advantage.

Risks, 1 in 9 games deceiver will only take one person with him (because I will spend a CP to reroll) but then I go into plan B. Some elite armies will have fewer drops, or an opponent could seize, which means I also fall back on plan B since the D-Bomb happens after seize. Properly screened units will be a pain in the kester, but we shall see.

List is below, what do you guys think?

Too bad you can't fit some Deathmarks into the above list. They'd be able to help with that first turn blitz.

Though, guys, favor,
Can we please use spoilers if we're going to posts lists in this thread?
I don't have a problem with the lists themselves, so much as the amount of page space they take up. A couple of lists on a page won't make much of a difference, but too many is going to make scrolling through pages a pain in the ass.

Fixed, I could squeeze a 9 man deathmark squad in but it would require giving up the stalker, which would make me worry about the lack of anti-fattie weapons.

I want to/have to believe that deathmarks are worth it. On paper at least they seem like they are needed to assist with a alpha strike. Where I live that's the new flavor everyone is trying out( tau, marines, etc.) some of the HQs that come down with them are brutal and being able to knock him out the turn he comes in seems like gold. If not throw them in cover and harass






My list for ref

Deathmarks have to be worth it just for how awesome they look.

torblind wrote:
I feel there are devils in the details regarding the concept of a screening unit. Is it correct that lets say a unit of 20 genestealers could simply move up to within 1" of the scarabs, declare a multicharge, and then just rush past them to attack the juicier targets behind? Perhaps leaving one model to deal with the speed bump?

Or I could put my scarabs <1" apart, but would now only cover some 7-8" width perhaps?

Are there ways to maximize their potensial? Keeping them ahead by a certain length from the units they protect behind?

For most cases you want your screening unit about 8-9" ahead of the unit it's protecting to prevent the multi charge slip, a scarab base is about 2" wide and the opponent has to stop 1" away from that so they'll need to roll an 11 or 12 on their 2d6 charge distance to cover that gap which is so unlikely they will probably not bother taking the rapid fire overwatch and instead just lose the turn killing the scarabs.

There will be times where the assaulting unit are too close or too fast and even if you backpedal your troops the whole 5" move thing isn't going to let you escape and in those cases you do want to go for the sub 1" coherency trick so they can't fit a base between your scarabs bases, as even though they'll be able to charge your juicier unit they will probably need to flow around the scarab unit or through a gap in 2 scarab units in such a way that only a handful of models can get to base contact and a handful more within 1" of those which will be the only models allowed to make attacks in the ensuing fight phase which hopefully curbs the damage enough that you can survive to make some reanimation rolls and then fall back. When in this situation try to use terrain to your advantage, not just impassible but even forests and craters. If you can force them to move through that during their charge move they have to subtract 2" from their 2d6 roll.

Also it's important to be aware of the opposing army's tricks when positioning. Orks have pretty obvious movement patterns, all-in sudden burst moves like trukks and battlewagons and 'da jump' that are pretty easy to see coming the turn before they're allowed to charge, but their 'ere we go' rule lets them re-roll a failed charge distance plus they can use a command point on a single die if one of their 2d6 is a 5 or 6 so they very well may be able to make an 10+ inch charge. Tyranids don't have a way to modify their charge distance that i know of but genestealers can advance and still charge and the swarmlord can nominate a unit to move a second time in the shooting phase so it's possible to make a unit of 20 genestealers move about 24" and still be able to charge so be ready for that sudden burst that can punish you for setting up too close or that slips all the way around screening units or impassible terrain features to hit you from a weird angle. And always keep tabs on units with the fly keyword who can freely move over the scarabs.

edit: oh but try not to just leave the scarabs out there from the start, they have a solid 10" move profile so they can chill back by the troops or hide from shooting until the opponent is close then suddenly form the screen. If they just sit out in front you can sometimes just give an assault unit a target to use to charge just so they gain a free 2d6 movement instead of doing nothing in no man's land because there's nothing within 12".

Deathmarks are fine. Cheap for deep striking potential MWs that are 2+ in cover. They're nothing special and won't win you games outright, but for 100 point min units that can intercept reserves and also poke at important Characters, they'll help get you there most of the time. I don't regret taking them since they're pretty cheap and at least somewhat effective.

 Actinium wrote:
For most cases you want your screening unit about 8-9" ahead of the unit it's protecting to prevent the multi charge slip, a scarab base is about 2" wide and the opponent has to stop 1" away from that so they'll need to roll an 11 or 12 on their 2d6 charge distance to cover that gap which is so unlikely they will probably not bother taking the rapid fire overwatch and instead just lose the turn killing the scarabs.

There will be times where the assaulting unit are too close or too fast and even if you backpedal your troops the whole 5" move thing isn't going to let you escape and in those cases you do want to go for the sub 1" coherency trick so they can't fit a base between your scarabs bases, as even though they'll be able to charge your juicier unit they will probably need to flow around the scarab unit or through a gap in 2 scarab units in such a way that only a handful of models can get to base contact and a handful more within 1" of those which will be the only models allowed to make attacks in the ensuing fight phase which hopefully curbs the damage enough that you can survive to make some reanimation rolls and then fall back. When in this situation try to use terrain to your advantage, not just impassible but even forests and craters. If you can force them to move through that during their charge move they have to subtract 2" from their 2d6 roll.

Also it's important to be aware of the opposing army's tricks when positioning. Orks have pretty obvious movement patterns, all-in sudden burst moves like trukks and battlewagons and 'da jump' that are pretty easy to see coming the turn before they're allowed to charge, but their 'ere we go' rule lets them re-roll a failed charge distance plus they can use a command point on a single die if one of their 2d6 is a 5 or 6 so they very well may be able to make an 10+ inch charge. Tyranids don't have a way to modify their charge distance that i know of but genestealers can advance and still charge and the swarmlord can nominate a unit to move a second time in the shooting phase so it's possible to make a unit of 20 genestealers move about 24" and still be able to charge so be ready for that sudden burst that can punish you for setting up too close or that slips all the way around screening units or impassible terrain features to hit you from a weird angle. And always keep tabs on units with the fly keyword who can freely move over the scarabs.

edit: oh but try not to just leave the scarabs out there from the start, they have a solid 10" move profile so they can chill back by the troops or hide from shooting until the opponent is close then suddenly form the screen. If they just sit out in front you can sometimes just give an assault unit a target to use to charge just so they gain a free 2d6 movement instead of doing nothing in no man's land because there's nothing within 12".

If you watch the FLG guys, you'll see they operate screens very differently. They have a good understanding of the rules, specifically, for pile ins and consolidates you can't move if you are in base to base, and if you are not you have to move towards the closest unit. So you make your screens narrow and long, and remove casualties from unengaged models. They also don't consolidate their screens, and rarely fall back, instead opting to tar pit rather than exterminate. This allows the screens to be much closer to the screened units, which means smaller screens. Also the goal of screens is not only to stop units on the board from getting close, it's also to stop deep striking chargers, which means screening units need to be a bubble rather than a wall your units are hiding behind.

This brings us to the math portion of screens, A 9 base scarab swarm gives you a screen of the bases width (9 x 2 so 18") plus 3/4" between them (5.25 or 7 inches in a hemisphere), gives you a 25" perimeter. Ideally you would set up on the edge of the board in a hemisphere, which gives you a diameter of 15". You need to deploy at least 3 " back , so you basically have a 12" diameter hemisphere which is freaking tiny, so you need to be selective on which units you screen. For my list above it's a stalker, a DDA, and some heavy destroyers.

On the subject of screening, since the Nightbringiner doesn't have the redeploy tricks that the deceiver does, I was thinking about sending a 9 base scarab unit ahead of it to screen incoming fire and get the Nightbringer delivered into cc with full wounds. 10" movement means they can stay ahead of the NB the whole time. Yay or nay?

Dew wrote:
On the subject of screening, since the Nightbringiner doesn't have the redeploy tricks that the deceiver does, I was thinking about sending a 9 base scarab unit ahead of it to screen incoming fire and get the Nightbringer delivered into cc with full wounds. 10" movement means they can stay ahead of the NB the whole time. Yay or nay?

I like nightbringer, he is amazingly devastating. Scarabs are tough and fast so it shouldn't be an issue getting him in CC, just bubble wrap and deliver.