Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I'm surprised lychguard don't see more play. I'll try to try some out in the next week or so.

With a Cryptek for a 5++ they can stick with warscythes, and then a 10-man unit has as many wounds as a full Warrior squad and a nice enough invulnerable save to make them hard to remove with plasma. You need to deliver them, still, which I guess would be the Deceiver or that pair of HQs that allow for teleportation. You're only paying 15 points per wound and they're fairly efficient anti-tank if you can get them there.

Deceiver won't work, they can't charge after being deployed by the deceiver. You would have to do something in the vein of a matryoshka style D-Bomb where you deliver night scythes and then the night scythes deliver the lychguard. It gets expensive fast, and you'll have to make a minimum of a 9" charge, so it seems a bit much for a unit that is merely good.

 Grimgold wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
I'm surprised lychguard don't see more play. I'll try to try some out in the next week or so.

With a Cryptek for a 5++ they can stick with warscythes, and then a 10-man unit has as many wounds as a full Warrior squad and a nice enough invulnerable save to make them hard to remove with plasma. You need to deliver them, still, which I guess would be the Deceiver or that pair of HQs that allow for teleportation. You're only paying 15 points per wound and they're fairly efficient anti-tank if you can get them there.

Deceiver won't work, they can't charge after being deployed by the deceiver. You would have to do something in the vein of a matryoshka style D-Bomb where you deliver night scythes and then the night scythes deliver the lychguard. It gets expensive fast, and you'll have to make a minimum of a 9" charge, so it seems a bit much for a unit that is merely good.

Obyron is the only reliable charge delivery method... but of course the entire combo costs way too much to be practical. You're usually better off just taking a couple of Warrior bricks with Grand Illusion, supported by Deathmarks and Doomsday Arks.

Yeah, I was thinking Obyron. I mean, you want an Overlord anyway so it's only Obyron who's a huge extra tax, and then his ability is also really handy for pulling things out of CC so they can still shoot. Might not be worth it but I'd like to give it a shot.

To be fair, you can somewhat reliably get Lychguard or even Flayed Ones in via Night Scythes. 2-3 Scythes that fly up the table into the enemy's face on T1 means, unless the entire army is 12" move, you have a good shot at a nearly guaranteed charge T2 with whatever gets out. But those Night Scythes aren't cheap and if someone has good AA (like Hydras), they might just get shot down.

The biggest issue I've found so far is cracking vehicles and monsters. HDestroyers can do it pretty well, but they also die just as easily. Warscythes wounding most big things on 4+ at best, 5+ on many tanks or Knight equivalents sucks a lot, even if they do essentially ignore armor and deal 2 damage per swing.

Requizen wrote:
The biggest issue I've found so far is cracking vehicles and monsters. HDestroyers can do it pretty well, but they also die just as easily. Warscythes wounding most big things on 4+ at best, 5+ on many tanks or Knight equivalents sucks a lot, even if they do essentially ignore armor and deal 2 damage per swing.

That's where mass S10 AP-5 d6D might come in handy with QS Wall.

 skoffs wrote:

Requizen wrote:
The biggest issue I've found so far is cracking vehicles and monsters. HDestroyers can do it pretty well, but they also die just as easily. Warscythes wounding most big things on 4+ at best, 5+ on many tanks or Knight equivalents sucks a lot, even if they do essentially ignore armor and deal 2 damage per swing.

That's where mass S10 AP-5 d6D might come in handy with QS Wall.

Yeah I might try to put together a few more DDArks.

It feels like HDestroyers shouldn't be easy to pop. Long range, 2+ in cover, T5 W3, maybe 5++ with a Cryptek. But honestly so many armies can put out things like plasma and Lascanncons and what not from enough range and enough numbers that 3 of them in a unit just doesn't cut the mustard. QS really is a great rule in practice.

I got to play with a DDA in a 1k game and instantly wish I had another. My 2k list runs two and I will never drop them from the list. Most of the games I play as soon as they see it on the table they do everything possible to target it and destroy it. You just point at something and it's gone lol

Edit: and QS saves so much wounds

I have a game scheduled for later this week against one of our better players at my club and he's playing guard parking lot...nothing but bassies, russ's, manticores and wyverns. As many as will fit in 2k. I'm sure he's squading up to reduce his deployment count so he has a chance at going first. I actually started looking at guard first when 8E hit last Saturday as I've been playing Necrons and Tau for the past year. Since he's playing IG I don't want to play a mirror match (although I do have some infantry units in mine and a couple of taurox primes and scions with plasma).

So what's a necron player to do about more massed armor than you can shake a warscythe at? I just don't see 2 or 3 blocks of warriors walking down field surviving the onslaught of artillery. I have the xenos books but admittedly have not read up on the necrons yet as I've been noodling guard this week and haven't really been following the leaks like I should have :(

str00dles1 wrote:
Not seeing lychguard make lists. Are they just not worth taking?

I think that with people trying to min-max lists and everything being expensive, they get the cut early.

I also think though that they will make the cut in more standard lists down the line once more people see the inevitability of assault in addition to the usefulness of Guardian Protocols

 necron99 wrote:
I have a game scheduled for later this week against one of our better players at my club and he's playing guard parking lot...nothing but bassies, russ's, manticores and wyverns. As many as will fit in 2k. I'm sure he's squading up to reduce his deployment count so he has a chance at going first. I actually started looking at guard first when 8E hit last Saturday as I've been playing Necrons and Tau for the past year. Since he's playing IG I don't want to play a mirror match (although I do have some infantry units in mine and a couple of taurox primes and scions with plasma).

So what's a necron player to do about more massed armor than you can shake a warscythe at? I just don't see 2 or 3 blocks of warriors walking down field surviving the onslaught of artillery. I have the xenos books but admittedly have not read up on the necrons yet as I've been noodling guard this week and haven't really been following the leaks like I should have :(

You can bring multiple DDArks and/or Heavy Destroyers and try to pop a couple on T1. 60 Warriors with Crypteks might survive long enough to get downfield.

This is a list where you might actually want to get some melee units in. None of those vehicles Fly, so you can charge in, do no damage, but then tie up multiple tanks and force them to not shoot. Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Scarabs in high enough numbers maybe, all can get in and then draw fire or prevent it altogether.

You can also try Night Scythes with dudes inside. The tanks will be hitting on 4s (other than any Commanders), so only 5s against Scythes, so zoom em up, maybe try to plink off a couple wounds, and then dump Warrior/Immortal blobs.

It's actually not bad but you can't expect to kill even half of his stuff unless you're bringing like 4-6 DDArks.

From what I'm hearing in all of the other army specific threads the models we never really put much stock in are now the top dogs. Who would have thought the IG Taurox would be anything? I think I played my DDA once when they first came out and then promptly shelved it...now we're all thinking it's a good idea to bring 3 to a gun fight?

Requizen wrote:

 necron99 wrote:
I have a game scheduled for later this week against one of our better players at my club and he's playing guard parking lot...nothing but bassies, russ's, manticores and wyverns. As many as will fit in 2k. I'm sure he's squading up to reduce his deployment count so he has a chance at going first. I actually started looking at guard first when 8E hit last Saturday as I've been playing Necrons and Tau for the past year. Since he's playing IG I don't want to play a mirror match (although I do have some infantry units in mine and a couple of taurox primes and scions with plasma).

So what's a necron player to do about more massed armor than you can shake a warscythe at? I just don't see 2 or 3 blocks of warriors walking down field surviving the onslaught of artillery. I have the xenos books but admittedly have not read up on the necrons yet as I've been noodling guard this week and haven't really been following the leaks like I should have :(

You can bring multiple DDArks and/or Heavy Destroyers and try to pop a couple on T1. 60 Warriors with Crypteks might survive long enough to get downfield.

This is a list where you might actually want to get some melee units in. None of those vehicles Fly, so you can charge in, do no damage, but then tie up multiple tanks and force them to not shoot. Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Scarabs in high enough numbers maybe, all can get in and then draw fire or prevent it altogether.

You can also try Night Scythes with dudes inside. The tanks will be hitting on 4s (other than any Commanders), so only 5s against Scythes, so zoom em up, maybe try to plink off a couple wounds, and then dump Warrior/Immortal blobs.

It's actually not bad but you can't expect to kill even half of his stuff unless you're bringing like 4-6 DDArks.

Agree with this, bum rush them into combat, you will neuter half his armies shooting the turn you do that. Grand illusion 2x large scarab squads, get into combat t1, half his powers gone, and the vehicles are atrocious in combat, while your scarabs put out tonnes of attacks that always wound on 5+'s. Then hammer the backline with DDA and stalkers, or massed HD with a destroyer lord (although the vehicles will last longer, so probably best go that route until FW stuff comes out. Our answers to anti vehicle are in there.)

 Klowny wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 necron99 wrote:
I have a game scheduled for later this week against one of our better players at my club and he's playing guard parking lot...nothing but bassies, russ's, manticores and wyverns. As many as will fit in 2k. I'm sure he's squading up to reduce his deployment count so he has a chance at going first. I actually started looking at guard first when 8E hit last Saturday as I've been playing Necrons and Tau for the past year. Since he's playing IG I don't want to play a mirror match (although I do have some infantry units in mine and a couple of taurox primes and scions with plasma).

So what's a necron player to do about more massed armor than you can shake a warscythe at? I just don't see 2 or 3 blocks of warriors walking down field surviving the onslaught of artillery. I have the xenos books but admittedly have not read up on the necrons yet as I've been noodling guard this week and haven't really been following the leaks like I should have :(

You can bring multiple DDArks and/or Heavy Destroyers and try to pop a couple on T1. 60 Warriors with Crypteks might survive long enough to get downfield.

This is a list where you might actually want to get some melee units in. None of those vehicles Fly, so you can charge in, do no damage, but then tie up multiple tanks and force them to not shoot. Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Scarabs in high enough numbers maybe, all can get in and then draw fire or prevent it altogether.

You can also try Night Scythes with dudes inside. The tanks will be hitting on 4s (other than any Commanders), so only 5s against Scythes, so zoom em up, maybe try to plink off a couple wounds, and then dump Warrior/Immortal blobs.

It's actually not bad but you can't expect to kill even half of his stuff unless you're bringing like 4-6 DDArks.

Agree with this, bum rush them into combat, you will neuter half his armies shooting the turn you do that. Grand illusion 2x large scarab squads, get into combat t1, half his powers gone, and the vehicles are atrocious in combat, while your scarabs put out tonnes of attacks that always wound on 5+'s. Then hammer the backline with DDA and stalkers, or massed HD with a destroyer lord (although the vehicles will last longer, so probably best go that route until FW stuff comes out. Our answers to anti vehicle are in there.)

Can't Grand Illusion into a charge.

Can try to do Night Scythe + unit inside, though.

Grand illusion doesn't let you charge.

you would need to bring them in with night scythes or a monolith(?)

edit: damnit ninjaed.

 Desubot wrote:
Grand illusion doesn't let you charge.

you would need to bring them in with night scythes or a monolith(?)

edit: damnit ninjaed.

May have to take it to the face T1 but a T2 alpha strike/charge should do it. Can we charge after we hop out of our scythes now?

 necron99 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Grand illusion doesn't let you charge.

you would need to bring them in with night scythes or a monolith(?)

edit: damnit ninjaed.

May have to take it to the face T1 but a T2 alpha strike/charge should be do it. Can we charge after we hop out of our scythes now?

unless explicitly stated that you can like grand illusion or falling back you can charge.

Hhhhmmmm...may see the return of cronair....

Ah yep, forgot about that. You could still run a list that just has 2x DDA, 2xStalkers, 2x Spyders with claws, 4 units of 9 scarabs and just bum rush him. Could add in the Grand Monolith charge combo but its pretty expensive. Over half the new maps have <24" no-mans land, some only 18", with a large movement on the scarabs means t1 charges arent even that unfeasable. With 36 scarab bases, 3" consolidation means they will have a HUGE footprint, and will be able to tie up an incredible amount of tanks, provided they havent been screened, which is unlikely in the list you're facing necron99.

Not really its a bit expensive still and you can only get out at the beginning of the movement phase (for the most part IIRC)

also flyers being fairly easy to shoot out of the sky.

a friend of mine lost a dread and a whole centurion squad out of a storm raven.... TWICE lol.

Actually after thinking about that IG matchup I'm kind of interested in throwing together lists with Wraiths again. Min units, spammed out just to tie down everything in the game.

Until you run into DEldar/Harlequins and Titanic things that can just fall back and shoot (and maybe even charge) which suddenly makes it sorta pointless again. Doot doot.

 necron99 wrote:
From what I'm hearing in all of the other army specific threads the models we never really put much stock in are now the top dogs. Who would have thought the IG Taurox would be anything? I think I played my DDA once when they first came out and then promptly shelved it...now we're all thinking it's a good idea to bring 3 to a gun fight?

Yeah, if those those armoured assault boxes come back for Christmas I'm definitely picking up a few more.

Ohhhhhh
For some reason I thought Night Scythes had to drop their cargo off further away from enemy units (as in, 9" or 12" or something).
Yes, if they can drop off 1" right next to something and then charge in the charge phase, that'd be a great delivery system for the Scytheguard... but yeah, as pointed out above, the thing to be careful of would be the possibility of your opponent shooting all your planes out off the sky before your guys could get out. Yes, you can take multiple planes to make sure you cover redundancy, but at what point does the cost outweigh the potential benefit (these birds ain't cheap, after all).
Let's say we take two 10 man Scytheguard and three Nightscythes. If you lose two flyers you can at least still "disembark" one of your reserved units, but then you risk losing the other one in the very likely event that they kill your last NS before your next turn.
(also I'm still angry we can't take Anrakyr in ANY sort of transport method apart from the Deceiver. Where can we ask about stuff for the next FAQ?)

Maybe not a full commitment to Lychguard and Scythes would be a little more flexible?

Perhaps two scythes and a squad or two of Gauss Immortals which we could use to get up close in dakka range if needed would be useful. That way depending on the match up we could use the Lychguard in either a frontal assault or defensive deployment while using the scythes to position the Immortals in hard cover and let them rapid fire anything we need them too.

I don't know, man.
Looking at it again, knowing what I do now, I'm wondering if Speed Crons might be viable after all.
Night Scythes, Tomb Blades, Deathmarks. Just using lots of stuff that can be over on their side of the table whenever I need... but doesn't necessarily need to be turn one.

I feel the same way. Even if you use a more static core of Warriors with some help from the Deceiver they can definitely put pressure somewhere on the map.

So we had this conversation earlier in this thread. A lot of you seem to be suggesting Night Scythes as a melee delivery system. They are not.

The reason being is you CANNOT move with the unit that "disembarked" from the Night Scythe the turn it got out. The earliest you'd be able to move the unit would be turn 3 (Move NS, Invasion Beam out, move+charge unit) unless the opponent is graceful enough to put a unit within ~12" of the night scythe for you to charge at.

This is due to the reinforcements rule on page 177. The Night Scythe is not classified as a "transport" and thus is not actually using the Disembark rule.

Crossing my fingers this was overlooked, but as of right now that's how it works.

tman3257 wrote:
So we had this conversation earlier in this thread. A lot of you seem to be suggesting Night Scythes as a melee delivery system. They are not.

The reason being is you CANNOT move with the unit that "disembarked" from the Night Scythe the turn it got out. The earliest you'd be able to move the unit would be turn 3 (Move NS, Invasion Beam out, move+charge unit) unless the opponent is graceful enough to put a unit within ~12" of the night scythe for you to charge at.

This is due to the reinforcements rule on page 177. The Night Scythe is not classified as a "transport" and thus is not actually using the Disembark rule.

Crossing my fingers this was overlooked, but as of right now that's how it works.

The only way is to deliver them with the Deceiver, right? And then put your trust in what would become a 9" charge (deceiver's 12" - night scythe's 3" = 9")


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something else, perhaps this was already covered, but our transports missing the "Transport" keyword, would that mean that they do not benefit deployment (with a reduction of deployed units), based on the wording in the GW "FAQ":



Ie, putting a unit on the tomb world would mean setting it up somewhere other than the battlefield, and thus is still a deployment choice?

So we can only use obyron and zahndrekh to transport lychguards at position. It is expensive but maybe worth price?

A Monolith/Nightscythe and the unit they keep on the tomb world count as one deployment. It says on the sheet that they deploy at the same time.

Although you cant move after exiting our "transports" they can still be used to charge out of if you park them right in front of the enemy the turn before. They just need to survive.

tman3257 wrote:
The reason being is you CANNOT move with the unit that "disembarked" from the Night Scythe the turn it got out.

Wasn't that just for MOVING? (as in, during the movement phase)
Could have sworn shooting and charging was still allowed.

The issue before was with the Deceiver Bomb:
The Night Scythes would be 12" away from the enemy because of Grand Illusion. If they got out 3" but then were not allowed to move up any further, that would be a 9" charge, which would make it an inefficient/risky tactic.

But if they're just coming out in turn two, the Night Scythe wouldn't need to be 12" away from the enemy. They could be right up close (up to an inch away). Granted, your opponent will likely have moved his stuff as far away from the Scythes as possible in his own movement phase, but it would still probably be closer than 12" (that's where multiple Scythes come in. Limit the places he can run, as the Lychguard can pop out of any of them).