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 vipoid wrote:
I have to say, I'm pretty worried about mobility in this edition.

My current army is basically:
Battalion
- Destroyer Lord
- Overlord
- Cryptek
- 15 Warriors
- 15 Warriors
- 10 Immortals
- 3 Destroyers + H. Destroyer
- 3 Destroyers + H. Destroyer
- 4 Scarabs

The Warriors and Immortals go with the Overlord and Cryptek, the Destroyers go with the D. Lord.

Here's the thing - this basically gives me just 2 blocks of units, and only the Destroyers have decent movement.

It seems like I'll really struggle with both mobility and board control. Am I worrying about nothing or is this a legitimate concern?

Also, if it is a legitimate concern, do you have any advice in terms of what I could do to fix it? Are Praetorians or Wraiths any good?

I think you dont need overlord. MWBD give you only 5 immortals. Better take more immortals. Overlord are slow and have only 12" range. In cc this formation die. So you dont wont hit him anything whole game.
For mobility we have new deep strike and teleports. 3 type of teleports. All are expensive.
I play wraiths and they weeknes are mortal wounds. Most army have some - like nightbringer and deathmarks.
Maybe boost Praetorians can be better but almost all hq are slower...

I think missing out on 2 tesla shots is well worth the toughness and wounds and invulnerable save and counter assault power that comes with an overlord, but he's only worth 5 immortals worth of shooting if he's buffing a full unit of 10 immortals so there's not a lot of redundancy in the list for when that squad takes some hits and he starts only being worth like 3 immortals or 4 warriors instead. Keeping him or trading him out for more bodies are both pretty valid for the list.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:I feel like I'm missing something with Szeras,

Spoiler:

I see lots of people taking him and I can't see the point. His random buffs are all worse than a 5++ from a normal Cryptek (or Orikans improved version), with the possible exception of T5. You can get the 5++ on 3 units at deployment so it is working right from turn 1 even if you don't go first. Szeras will take 3 turns to buff the same amount of units with worse buffs. His shooty stick is decent I suppose.

I like the 5++ with Warriors and/or Destroyers, but I feel i don't need it with just Immortals and their 3+. Even without cover, it's taking -3 AP weapons to make a difference, mainly Eldar - and if they're targetting Immortals over the Triach or DDA I'll live with it.

He's got a pocket brightlance which is really good given how starved we are for that sort of AT. His RP boost is the only one that can affect my Praets if it comes to that. He has an extra wound 4->5 so he can't get sniped as easily. He's not a complete moron in close combat compared to a regular Cryptek, which will probably happen most games. The augmentation is really a nice cherry on top of that.

I just don't rate the 5++ unless it's Warrior spam, and without the need for that I rate him over his direct point swap in Orikan.

skoffs wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Here's a list I've been mulling over for a bit.

Spoiler:

Battalion

Anrakyr - 167
Szeras - 143
Lord w/ HypSwd - 76

Immortals x10 - 170
Immortals x10 - 170
Immortals x10 - 170

Triach Stalker, Heat Ray - 171
Triach Stalker, Heat Ray - 171
Triach Praetorians x10 - 350

Doomsday Ark - 203
Doomsday Ark - 203

1996 points; 6 CP

I think this combines in a good way the 'best of' for the Necrons for me. There are a few good units like the Deciever/Nightbringer I've left out, but it seems difficult to fit a C'Tan in without compromising on bodies or firepower in the list.

I wrote off the Praetorians earlier, but I'm coming back around to them based on the sheer benefit of them having mobility from 10" move and FLY which seems too useful to overlook. They also fully interact with the list's choice of HQs which is a bonus. Being able to access MWBD/+1 Attack from Anrakyr and +1 to Resurrection rolls from Szeras is a nice bonus and makes me feel better about having them in the list too.

Those Stalkers could do with Heavy Gauss Cannons (to help the Doomsday Arks better).

How exactly do you plan on using those HQ?
You said you intended on using them with the Praetorians, but these two are slow and Praets are fast... are you planning on hobbling the fast guys just so the slow guys can keep up?

Well it's flexible depending on enemy list - CC horde and I'll try to get in as much shooting as possible, with a gunline I might doubletime it up first turn with the Immortals to close distance asap - but otherwise the idea is just to advance on them while shooting, and finish whats left in assault as needed.

The Praetorians will stick with the Immortals/HQs for the first turn or two, unlikely I strategically need to send them gunning forward ASAP as a first wave. They're my firefighters/cleanup crew.

Edit: oh yeah the Heat Ray, I can drop one Immortal unit to 9 to have enough points for two twin Heavy Gauss upgrades, or go for one HG/one Particle Shredder and keep 3x10, but I want to give the Heat Rays a good test, I think they have some merit given I likely often want to move my Stalkers forward aggressively in support of my Infantry.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:I feel like I'm missing something with Szeras,

Spoiler:

I see lots of people taking him and I can't see the point. His random buffs are all worse than a 5++ from a normal Cryptek (or Orikans improved version), with the possible exception of T5. You can get the 5++ on 3 units at deployment so it is working right from turn 1 even if you don't go first. Szeras will take 3 turns to buff the same amount of units with worse buffs. His shooty stick is decent I suppose.

I like the 5++ with Warriors and/or Destroyers, but I feel i don't need it with just Immortals and their 3+. Even without cover, it's taking -3 AP weapons to make a difference, mainly Eldar - and if they're targetting Immortals over the Triach or DDA I'll live with it.

He's got a pocket brightlance which is really good given how starved we are for that sort of AT. His RP boost is the only one that can affect my Praets if it comes to that. He has an extra wound 4->5 so he can't get sniped as easily. He's not a complete moron in close combat compared to a regular Cryptek, which will probably happen most games. The augmentation is really a nice cherry on top of that.

Yeah these are the exact reasons I'm painting my Szeras right now lol

By the way, do you guys prefer the Warscythe or the Staff of Light on your Overlords and Destroyer lords?

Isn't the Tesseract Vault a quite decent horde killer?

I was just thinking...

If it fires 3 seismic assault at a horde, its killing 50% flat.

20 tesla S7 shots will take off another 9-11 wounds, depending ont he thickness of their T-shirts.

That should decimate most viable horde units, should it not? Leaving what remains to be managable by a not too large mop-up crew. That goes some way to win those 500 points back.

Should it come back next turn in a crippled state (It would require around 5 wounding las cannons), it could still cast 2 seismic assaults on the next horde unit (killing 33%), and tesla killing 7-9 wounds with reduced BS, perhaps 2 mop-up crews then to clean up those remains.

Should it come out still humming after 2 turns, its C'Tan powers make it quiite versatile for targeting other types of units, and S7 tesla would take on most things up to T6 with decent results.

If you bring a spyder it would recover on average 3 wounds every turn, negating one lascannon wound each turn.

Now if you bring 2 vaults, how fun wouldn't that be.

I'm not fluent in Ork, but wouldn't their mob rule soon disappear leaving a quite ugly morale test to take care of remains too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Checking the ork mob rule - essentially every kill after 50% + d6 models, comes with a bonus morale casualty as well. Synapse and Commisars won't be that easy, but at least its something


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit2: Ah. If it fires its C'Tan powers in sequence, its no longer 50% flat but around 42%, bummer.

I know everyone (including me!) is excited about the utility of Crypteks now, but doing some mathcraft on it suggests these things are probably overcosted for their RP enhancement?

1/6 of the time they make the difference between a successful RP and not. Which means, the following number of resurrection attempts would be required before a sufficient number of points have been resurrected to make him worth it (at 104 points, assuming Staff of Light equipped): [104 / (Model Point Cost * (1/6))]

Warriors: 50 attempts
Immortals: 37 attempts
Destroyers: 14 attempts
Heavy Destroyers: 8 attempts

(Remember that one dead model on turn one could make up to 6 RP attempts across a 7 turn game.)


The invulnerable save kicks in when a model would be denied a 5+ or 6+ only, and can only really be evaluated depending on the meta/match. Given that this kicks in for Warriors at AP -2 and for the rest of the above at AP -3, if for simplicity we assume all of the below shots are at AP -3 and then AP -4, then the following number of wounds are required for the Cryptek to be worth it:

AP-3: [104 / (Model Point Cost * (1/6))]
AP-4: [104 / (Model Point Cost * (1/3))]

Warriors (get the better equation at AP-3): 25 wounds
Immortals: 37 and 19 wounds
Destroyers (only get one third of the benefit since only the last wound matters): 42 wounds and 21 wounds
Heavy Destroyers: 24 wounds and 12 wounds

Ironically, the Cryptek's own ++ ability hurts the points effectiveness of its RP ability; i.e., the more work his ++ ability does, the fewer RP attempts you are making. The corollary is that the less AP you have against you, the less likely his RP ability will be triggered AND the less his ++ ability will trigger.

Consequentially, a base Cryptek + SoL is unlikely to be worth the points it costs and other relevant abilities on other HQs should be considered.

Someone please tell me I'm wrong, though, because I lub mah Crypteks!

I think so much of every unit's value is in being able to make RP rolls at all that zooming out to look at the cryptek paying for itself in literal attempt rolls isn't the complete picture. Really anything you can do to stop yourself from losing your last model in a unit is very strong, and the cryptek stops that up front with a 5++ (or sometimes 5 toughness) or from attrition with the 4+ RP roll sometimes giving you the crucial 1 or 2 models you need to stop from being wiped out the following turn. To measure the cryptek's value then you'd have to figure out the likelihood he's responsible for a unit surviving where it wouldn't otherwise and then give him credit for the entire unit, but that likelihood changes so drastically based on what army you're against and who is piloting that army and how you're piloting your army it seems kinda impossible to quantify. Is he better than 8 and a half warriors or 6 immortals or 1 and a half destroyers or whatever else? That's something we're more likely to come to a conclusion about through experience rather than through mathhammer.

Crypteks and Ghost Arks together change that math a bit, at least for Warriors. Together that's 75% RP every turn. Adding rolls buffed by the Cryptek help his value too.

Also, the entirety of the Cryptek's value isn't in the number of RP rolls, he also has the staff and whatnot. just to ballpark a figure, maybe we say 85% of his value is in RP? Beyond that, I think it's hard to value the 5++ out of context. For example, in a SIlver Tide list that's entirely 1W and QS models, there's significant value in denying the effectiveness of high-AP, multi-wound weaponry, and the 5++ is part of that.

I'm not disagreeing with your math, per se, just suggesting that the issue is a little more granular.

 vipoid wrote:
Battalion
- Overlord
- Cryptek
- 15 Warriors
- 15 Warriors
- 10 Immortals

Outrider
- Destroyer Lord
- 3 Destroyers + H. Destroyer
- 3 Destroyers + H. Destroyer
- 4 Scarabs

Try this setup instead. Gives you an extra CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
By the way, do you guys prefer the Warscythe or the Staff of Light on your Overlords and Destroyer lords?

I give Destroyer Lords the Staff, as their power only affects shooting. Overlords get Warscythes, as their 2+ to hit is going to be great with it.

torblind wrote:
Isn't the Tesseract Vault a quite decent horde killer?

I was just thinking...

If it fires 3 seismic assault at a horde, its killing 50% flat.

20 tesla S7 shots will take off another 9-11 wounds, depending ont he thickness of their T-shirts.

That should decimate most viable horde units, should it not? Leaving what remains to be managable by a not too large mop-up crew. That goes some way to win those 500 points back.

Should it come back next turn in a crippled state (It would require around 5 wounding las cannons), it could still cast 2 seismic assaults on the next horde unit (killing 33%), and tesla killing 7-9 wounds with reduced BS, perhaps 2 mop-up crews then to clean up those remains.

Should it come out still humming after 2 turns, its C'Tan powers make it quiite versatile for targeting other types of units, and S7 tesla would take on most things up to T6 with decent results.

If you bring a spyder it would recover on average 3 wounds every turn, negating one lascannon wound each turn.

Now if you bring 2 vaults, how fun wouldn't that be.

I'm not fluent in Ork, but wouldn't their mob rule soon disappear leaving a quite ugly morale test to take care of remains too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Checking the ork mob rule - essentially every kill after 50% + d6 models, comes with a bonus morale casualty as well. Synapse and Commisars won't be that easy, but at least its something


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit2: Ah. If it fires its C'Tan powers in sequence, its no longer 50% flat but around 42%, bummer.

I do mathammer for all necrons and count hit per point, meel hit per point and shoot hit per point. Its anti hord best stats. Teserect value have one of less dmg per value stats... Best are scarabs, warriors for 12" and immortals with tessla for 24".
I dont count ctans power. Its hard becouse you dont know how many model in unit opponent take. We can take take scarabs swarm army with 3 model in every unit.

Kuguar6 wrote:

I do mathammer for all necrons and count hit per point, meel hit per point and shoot hit per point. Its anti hord best stats. Teserect value have one of less dmg per value stats... Best are scarabs, warriors for 12" and immortals with tessla for 24".
I dont count ctans power. Its hard becouse you dont know how many model in unit opponent take. We can take take scarabs swarm army with 3 model in every unit.

For a weapon that could kill 25 out of 50 conscripts, that's hardly fair, is it?

 skoffs wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Battalion
- Overlord
- Cryptek
- 15 Warriors
- 15 Warriors
- 10 Immortals

Outrider
- Destroyer Lord
- 3 Destroyers + H. Destroyer
- 3 Destroyers + H. Destroyer
- 4 Scarabs

Try this setup instead. Gives you an extra CP.

Ah, I hadn't noticed that. Cheers.

 skoffs wrote:
I give Destroyer Lords the Staff, as their power only affects shooting. Overlords get Warscythes, as their 2+ to hit is going to be great with it.

I don't know if it matters, but math would suggest that Destroyer Lords are actually score more hits in melee than Overlords. They only hit on a 3+, sure, but they reroll 1s (so 14/18 compared to the Overlord's 15/18) and they have 4 attacks instead of 3. The D. Lord is looking at 3.1 hits, whilst the Overlord will only get 2.5.

 vipoid wrote:
I have to say, I'm pretty worried about mobility in this edition.

My current army is basically:
Battalion
- Destroyer Lord
- Overlord
- Cryptek
- 15 Warriors
- 15 Warriors
- 10 Immortals
- 3 Destroyers + H. Destroyer
- 3 Destroyers + H. Destroyer
- 4 Scarabs

I wouldnt be super worried, 8 destroyers and a d-lord is a lot of fairly mobile firepower

 vipoid wrote:
I don't know if it matters, but math would suggest that Destroyer Lords are actually score more hits in melee than Overlords. They only hit on a 3+, sure, but they reroll 1s (so 14/18 compared to the Overlord's 15/18) and they have 4 attacks instead of 3. The D. Lord is looking at 3.1 hits, whilst the Overlord will only get 2.5.

Oh wow, how did I miss that D.Lords have 4 attacks now!
That's pretty cool... though the Staff is hardly garbage.
What's the math look like for him?
In a full turn (shooting and melee) what work out to be best on a Destroyer Lord?:
- 3 S5 AP-2 shots (rerolling 1s to hit and to wound) plus 4 S5 AP-2 attacks (rerolling 1s to hit)
- 4 S7 AP-4 attacks (rerolling 1s to hit)

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

I like the 5++ with Warriors and/or Destroyers, but I feel i don't need it with just Immortals and their 3+. Even without cover, it's taking -3 AP weapons to make a difference, mainly Eldar - and if they're targetting Immortals over the Triach or DDA I'll live with it.

He's got a pocket brightlance which is really good given how starved we are for that sort of AT. His RP boost is the only one that can affect my Praets if it comes to that. He has an extra wound 4->5 so he can't get sniped as easily. He's not a complete moron in close combat compared to a regular Cryptek, which will probably happen most games. The augmentation is really a nice cherry on top of that.

I just don't rate the 5++ unless it's Warrior spam, and without the need for that I rate him over his direct point swap in Orikan.

As someone above was saying, anything that increases the durability of RP units is incredibly valuable. If you can prevent a unit from being wiped out in one turn it makes a huge difference. Aside form adding to the RP roll, Szeras can't be relied upon to do anything to increase the durability of the units around him. You can quite easily go two or three turns without seeing the toughness buff, and even then it only effects one unit, so the opponent can target a different one. Szeras will help you RP if you survive but otherwise gives a modest boost to your offence, Orikan and Crypeks boost defense which, given the nature of RP, is worth more.

How useful the 5++ is depends on what you're facing. In my experience it is used all the time, every turn. When a unit with RP is reduce to a few models your opponent really should be shooting everything they have to finish them off. This includes high AP multi damage weapons (especially with how QS makes them a poor choice against our vehicles). In fact, when combined with QS on all vehicles, a 5++ save on your infantry can render all of your opponents high powered weapons a waste of points.

In CC is where the 5++ becomes really important, so I would always take Orikan (he's worth it for the 6" bubble and improved stats anyway). It effectively neuters any powerful characters and Monsters trying to munch through your infantry. Those 6 powerful attacks hitting on 2+ will kill 2 or 3, preventing morale tests from killing more.

Immortals are probably the sweet spot for Szeras as you say (to be clear; I'm commenting on the usefulness of the various Crypteks in general rather than in your list specifically). Warriors are more likely to have their armor ignored and Destroyers and Lychguard are the Ideal target for high AP multi damage weapons. I particularly like the 5++ for Lychguard as it means you can run the cheaper and more killy Warscythes without losing much defense.

I don't find cover easy to get on multiple units of Immortals due to the need for the phalanx to stick together. If one unit is in cover the next one is likely to be in the gap between terrain features, and they're the one that will get shot.


TLDR:
-Orikan and Crypteks increase the defense of multiple units right from deployment, compounding the effect of the 4+ RP.
-A 5++ provides synergy with QS to deny appropriate targets for the opponents most powerful weapons.

Whats the mathhammer on 20 warriors in rapid-fire with 2+ BS (using Szeras +1 BS if lucky or a MWBD vis Overlord, Zahndrekh etc) with re-rolling hit rolls of 1 if the stalker as hit the enemy unit before hand vs 10 Immortals with Gauss using 2+ BS and re-rolling hit rolls of 1?

Actually, are there any comprehensive mathhammer resources that are recognized as being the best to use right now for 8th?
There's the one linked in the top post of page 1 in this thread, but I don't know if there's been another one out since then that might be better to use.
(really want to figure out which weapon puts out the best damage for a D.Lord)

 skoffs wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I don't know if it matters, but math would suggest that Destroyer Lords are actually score more hits in melee than Overlords. They only hit on a 3+, sure, but they reroll 1s (so 14/18 compared to the Overlord's 15/18) and they have 4 attacks instead of 3. The D. Lord is looking at 3.1 hits, whilst the Overlord will only get 2.5.

Oh wow, how did I miss that D.Lords have 4 attacks now!
That's pretty cool... though the Staff is hardly garbage.
What's the math look like for him?
In a full turn (shooting and melee) what work out to be best on a Destroyer Lord?:
- 3 S5 AP-2 shots (rerolling 1s to hit and to wound) plus 4 S5 AP-2 attacks (rerolling 1s to hit)
- 4 S7 AP-4 attacks (rerolling 1s to hit)

Against anything with 2+ wounds, I think the Warscythe is going to come out on top.

Against toughness 4-6 with an armour save of 3+ or worse, the Warscythe will average 4.1 wounds against multi-wound models (~2 wounds against 1-wound models), and 3.1 against T7+ targets (~1.5 against 1-wound models).

The SoL is more complicated. Ignoring armour saves for a moment, it averages 3.9 wounds against T3-4. However, against tougher targets this quickly falls away - the SoL averages 2.9 wounds against T5 targets (which are quite common now) and a mere 1.9 against T6 targets. However, it only ignores saves of 5+ or worse. Against 3+ saves, it scores 2.6 wounds against T4, 1.9 wounds against T5 and 1.3 wounds against T6+ targets.

This is based on some quick math (I haven't done an entire spreadsheet). However, the Staff of Light is looking like a rather niche weapon. It's better against GEQ and slightly better against MEQ, but against most other targets it's going to be worse. The poor AP really lets it down and rerolling 1s is nice when you're wounding on 3s, but becomes far less relevant when you're wounding on 4s or 5s.

I think I'd lean towards the warscythe. Especially given that it's the cheaper option.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

Spoiler:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

I like the 5++ with Warriors and/or Destroyers, but I feel i don't need it with just Immortals and their 3+. Even without cover, it's taking -3 AP weapons to make a difference, mainly Eldar - and if they're targetting Immortals over the Triach or DDA I'll live with it.

He's got a pocket brightlance which is really good given how starved we are for that sort of AT. His RP boost is the only one that can affect my Praets if it comes to that. He has an extra wound 4->5 so he can't get sniped as easily. He's not a complete moron in close combat compared to a regular Cryptek, which will probably happen most games. The augmentation is really a nice cherry on top of that.

I just don't rate the 5++ unless it's Warrior spam, and without the need for that I rate him over his direct point swap in Orikan.

As someone above was saying, anything that increases the durability of RP units is incredibly valuable. If you can prevent a unit from being wiped out in one turn it makes a huge difference. Aside form adding to the RP roll, Szeras can't be relied upon to do anything to increase the durability of the units around him. You can quite easily go two or three turns without seeing the toughness buff, and even then it only effects one unit, so the opponent can target a different one. Szeras will help you RP if you survive but otherwise gives a modest boost to your offence, Orikan and Crypeks boost defense which, given the nature of RP, is worth more.

How useful the 5++ is depends on what you're facing. In my experience it is used all the time, every turn. When a unit with RP is reduce to a few models your opponent really should be shooting everything they have to finish them off. This includes high AP multi damage weapons (especially with how QS makes them a poor choice against our vehicles). In fact, when combined with QS on all vehicles, a 5++ save on your infantry can render all of your opponents high powered weapons a waste of points.

In CC is where the 5++ becomes really important, so I would always take Orikan (he's worth it for the 6" bubble and improved stats anyway). It effectively neuters any powerful characters and Monsters trying to munch through your infantry. Those 6 powerful attacks hitting on 2+ will kill 2 or 3, preventing morale tests from killing more.

Immortals are probably the sweet spot for Szeras as you say (to be clear; I'm commenting on the usefulness of the various Crypteks in general rather than in your list specifically). Warriors are more likely to have their armor ignored and Destroyers and Lychguard are the Ideal target for high AP multi damage weapons. I particularly like the 5++ for Lychguard as it means you can run the cheaper and more killy Warscythes without losing much defense.

I don't find cover easy to get on multiple units of Immortals due to the need for the phalanx to stick together. If one unit is in cover the next one is likely to be in the gap between terrain features, and they're the one that will get shot.

TLDR:
-Orikan and Crypteks increase the defense of multiple units right from deployment, compounding the effect of the 4+ RP.
-A 5++ provides synergy with QS to deny appropriate targets for the opponents most powerful weapons.

I agree with the strength of the Cryptek/Orikan, especially for multiwounders like Lychguard and Destroyers. Everything you said is right.

The list I built was designed around not having it though. I'm honestly not fussed around the Szeras buffs he hands out, they're a bonus, so the RNG doesn't bother me there. He's mainly there for extra shooting and to improve the RP of the Triach Praetorians from 5+ to 4+ (which neither of the other Crypteks can help with).

If the enemy army has the firepower turn one to remove a unit of Immortals from the board, that's 'ok'. The list is designed as such that that isn"t a critical point of failure. It's less than 10% of the army at 170 points. The full squad of Praetorians alone are worth more than two Immortal squads.

By the way, regarding the CCB, is it worth considering to accompany a unit of destroyers?

Granted, it can only buff one unit, but it will make them hit on a 2+ rerolling 1s.

 vipoid wrote:
By the way, regarding the CCB, is it worth considering to accompany a unit of destroyers?

Granted, it can only buff one unit, but it will make them hit on a 2+ rerolling 1s.

Well its fragile, not a character so its getting gunned down fast. The destroyer lord is a character, so can hide behind the others, also buffs an aura, so more than one unit. Putting two buffing models on them is probably a bit much, and between the two im pretty sure the destroyer lord will come out as the best option.

Looking at it again,
A Stalker with HGC is 181 points.
A Doomsday Ark is 203 points.
The Stalker helps make the DDA more accurate, yes... but for only like 20 points more you can just get a second DDA. Increasing the efficiency of a thing's firepower usually isn't as good as straight up doubling it.

So maybe the Stalker isn't exactly required if fielding Doomsday Arks.
Maybe instead of the one-of-each heavy weapons combo, we just pay the extra 20 something points and just take double DDAs.

(unless someone's done some mathhammering on this and found those two units working in tandem really are worth the investment)

Stalker are two Heavy Destroyers and has own shoot power.
He also boost troops and other. Best for boost tesla. After reroll 1 you can still get 6+ bonus.

Well, the Stalker helps other units too

 skoffs wrote:
Looking at it again,
A Stalker with HGC is 181 points.
A Doomsday Ark is 203 points.
The Stalker helps make the DDA more accurate, yes... but for only like 20 points more you can just get a second DDA. Increasing the efficiency of a thing's firepower usually isn't as good as straight up doubling it.

So maybe the Stalker isn't exactly required if fielding Doomsday Arks.
Maybe instead of the one-of-each heavy weapons combo, we just pay the extra 20 something points and just take double DDAs.

(unless someone's done some mathhammering on this and found those two units working in tandem really are worth the investment)

Yea, you want a tarpit screening unit gone? point the stalker it at it, then 10 tesla immortals with MWBD

More versatile and gives more tactical flexibility for cheaper, with a similar gun.

Had a thought, how do you measure the 'base' of a triarch stalker? Like for the purposes of not coming within 1" of an enemy model.
Could you kinda mother hen a unit of immortals under a stalker's skirt thanks to spider legs and force the opponent to declare a multi charge to get up under there to get at the unit? Then they take overwatch from the stalker too and targeting relay says it applies to all shots fired at that target in the same phase which includes the fight phase where OW happens, so they get blasted by a particle shredder overwatch then tesla overwatch with rerolling 1s then have to get smacked around by the massive forelimbs in the fight.

 Actinium wrote:
Had a thought, how do you measure the 'base' of a triarch stalker? Like for the purposes of not coming within 1" of an enemy model.

Presumably, if it doesn't have a base, you'd measure to the hull instead.

 Actinium wrote:

Could you kinda mother hen a unit of immortals under a stalker's skirt thanks to spider legs and force the opponent to declare a multi charge to get up under there to get at the unit? Then they take overwatch from the stalker too and targeting relay says it applies to all shots fired at that target in the same phase which includes the fight phase where OW happens, so they get blasted by a particle shredder overwatch then tesla overwatch with rerolling 1s then have to get smacked around by the massive forelimbs in the fight.

I suspect this would be disallowed (even if it's by means of someone chucking a rulebook at your head), but I love the idea.

Sadly, I can't even attempt this because mine is made from a CCB and various Tyranid bits, so it's a lot closer to the ground than the proper model.

It's only something like 5 savable wounds total difference if you add the stalker's weapon, the rerolls, and the forelimbs but i mean if you're already walking a 24" weapon stalker up with your phalanx its kinda free value to have it sitting on top of your unit instead of behind or to the side since templates aren't a thing anymore.

By the way, how are you guys playing RPs?

Are you saying that multi-wound models like Destroyers and Praetorians come back with full wounds or with just 1 wound?

(I know that there's a thread about this in YMDC, but last I checked it's up to 9 pages and has still gone absolutely bloody nowhere.)