col_impact wrote:
I think the Tomb Stalker is being over valued at A.

The Tomb Sentinel is better in every way to the Tomb Stalker and will always be used instead of the Tomb Stalker.

People should get the clear message to buy the Tomb Sentinel instead of the Tomb Stalker.

 Grimgold wrote:
I feel like deathmarks are overrated at a B-, important characters will have body guards, and the current deep strike meta relies on deep striking MSU, so the deathmarks might get one disposable unit and miss 4 others. I'd say they are a solid C, situationally useful, but too easy to counter.

I also think triarch praetorians are underrated. They are a vanguard unit so generally too fast to receive buffs like MWBD anyway, so the lack of a dynasty keyword only affects tomb world deploy, which is kind of a shaky decision for them anyway. At 350 point, they pack as many wounds as a warrior blob, with a better toughness, better armor save, and way more offensive punch. They are in what I like to think of as a sweet spot for toughness and wounds, at 2 wounds and T5 most heavy weapons are wounding on 3s instead of 2s and wasting a lot of damage down range. Anti-infantry weapons have to deal with multiple wounds per model, T5, and a good armor save. The immunity to morale means you have to kill them to the man to stop them from getting back up. I've used them in several games, and the wrecked face in all of them, so I'd probably rate them as a B+, maybe A-, solid generalist unit capable of exceptional results depending on opponents comp.

 Actinium wrote:
A: All-stars, no list is made worse by their inclusion but some lists may forgo them for a unique strategy or personal preference.
B: Role Players, these are some of the best units at what they do and can operate with and without support.
C: Viable, these units are perfectly fine they just have some minor problems in comparison to higher grade units or require a lot more support to function on equal footing.
D: Flawed, these units are possibly even very good at their role but they are pretty poorly costed or there is another unit/s with an identical role who is much better at it.
F: Something's Awry, there's some fundamental flaw with their rules or cost that make you wonder what scenario could possibly make you take this unit.

My scale works a bit differently in that I'm often as concerned by how durable a unit is as i am its offensive power and I also think that a unit that's more likely to show up in many kinds of list are a higher rank than a niche unit that appears in 1, even if that niche unit becomes an 'A' with that specific support and composition. And i'm not really gonna bother with plus or minus gradients, these are more broad impressions. I'm also leaving out a lot of named characters or super heavies that i have no clear interest in/understanding of.

Spoiler:

Overlord, B - Despite missing any really relevant gear options this edition, MWBD is an easy to use force multiplier that works best with large redundant troop blobs that we want to be taking anyway, and his stat line compares well to similarly costed lords and commanders of other armies.

Lord, D - I'm pretty sure i will always take the +1 leadership aura for my warlord trait so the number of losses you need to take to make a morale test dangerous but still passable where a re-roll is preferable to just paying 2 CP to auto pass is pretty narrow. Still usable where you want to take the absolute lowest discount on an HQ you can.

Cryptek, B - If attrition is our win condition then it's difficult to imagine a better glue for an army, and the trinity of regular cryptek, szeras, and orikan are actually all equally viable for different reasons/builds. The odds on them getting their points back over a game are still fuzzy at best so they aren't an easy auto include, and 3" is not a forgiving aura size so these will often really hamper your army's agility, causing units to choose to run under their full rolled advance value to keep in range or conga lining models awkwardly as you navigate around terrain. You will find yourself splitting units off for objectives or cover or to bolster a flank more often than a lot of people suppose and paying for multiple crypteks to accommodate that gets very expensive very fast.

Destroyer Lord, C - There's nothing wrong with the destroyer lord but he's got a somewhat narrow focus. You only really want him with some kind of destroyer wing to buff and he is torn between his lack of long range shooting and being pretty vulnerable alone. This isn't the living missile that used to run around with wraiths murdering tanks, this is more of a really hardy support unit to one type of necron detachment.

CCB, F - Not many units in the index deserve an F, but if anyone does it is the entry that thought 'hey, what if we took an overlord and stripped him of his character status and invulnerable save in exchange for 3 wounds and a toughness? Now what if we charged an extra 40 points for that? Y'know, just in case they really need that extra 7" move to keep up with the tomb blades and triarch preatorians that they can't buff.'

Warriors, B - I won't pretend warrior blobs aren't one of our best units but they really only get there in the 15-20 range and with some form of support to their RP which is no small stipulation and often no small cost. Their 13"+ shooting is nothing amazing, the fact that you need to take at or near max blobs makes them difficult to gain cover saves or avoid LOS against longer range units, and most people understand that they need to dedicate themselves to wiping out units to deny RP rolls so they will rarely get to sit and have a long term fire fight with 1 or 2 other units where they will eventually grind their opponent down unless you are already winning on the rest of the board. Their strength is that they are too much to ignore but are like 5th or 6th on shooting priority, they will be shot at just by virtue of terrain and weapon ranges often making them the only thing to shoot. While the higher priority units alternate killing each other the warriors will slowly gain position and kills on the enemy infantry, refreshing their dead until there isn't enough left to wipe them out anymore.

Immortals, A - Take 5, take 10, give them buffs, let them operate alone, in cover, out of cover, transport them, make em march, screen them, drop the screen and add more bodies. They are incredibly versatile and pound for pound one of the better anti horde units in the game. One of the recurring complaints you'll see for other anti horde units i have will be 'still not as good as their cost in immortals' because nothing ever is.

Lychguard, C - These are pretty much better than assault terminators and they cost less. Sadly there is no cheap way to get them mobile enough to be true threats.

Deathmarks, D - I don't really think sniping characters is a vital component to a 8th edition army and needing to take a suicide point blank unit of deep striking snipers just seems kinda bad? They can strike into cover and become less suicidal but if they're outside rapid fire range of their target they just really suck. 20 points for a tactical marine that can get mortal wounds on 6s. Interrupting enemy deep strike shenanigans is cool but not every enemy is going to run shenanigans and most of those units need to be hit by more than 10 bolter rounds and a mortal wound to be crippled so investing like 200 points for a deterrent for 1 unit? It's not my jam at all.

Flayed Ones, D - They have the weak stat line of warriors but their entire gimmick is the deep strike charge where they will fail the charge more often than not and they lack any of the support to help their saves or RPs if they try. Unless you take named characters and go all in on a red tide list i think scarabs do a similar enough job for much cheaper and filling multiple other roles.

Praetorians, C - Of the 2-wound almost-there units along with lychguard and tomb blades, preatorians are the best and might actually be a B. They are meq/teq killers so they are more competing with destroyers than immortals, they are highly mobile in an army that is depressingly slow, and while they have RP they aren't pigeon holed into a battle of attrition. They execute any infantry unit near their own model count, running them down, peppering them in the shooting phase, then assaulting through the reduced overwatch volley to wipe them out or get them close enough that morale will finish the job. They suck on tanks and hordes but we have better tools for those.

Triarch Stalker, C - Targeting relay is a nice bonus but it isn't a reliable force multiplier. most units already hit on a 3+ so unlike a MWBD it's only really giving 2/3s of 1/6 of a units shooting as a bonus and despite that bonus applying to potentially your entire army you just aren't going to shoot any one thing with your whole army unless you're fighting a titan. Against MSU you'll barely get the bonus at all. If we take a step back from the targeting relay then what we have is just a solid walker, expensive but durable without enough firepower or close combat heft to pay for itself easily but enough of both to be a solid glue unit that both supports and does its own heavy lifting. Hopefully.

Ghost Ark, C - If it had a larger transport capacity or if it could transport anything but warriors and characters this would probably be an A, but as is it's basically the equivalent of 10 warriors at shooting that you only want to take if you have 40+ other warriors already. Still very solid but if it only really applies to one army type i've got to dock its rating to reflect its niche status.

Night Scythe, C - The model itself is more of a D but until we get a codex that gives us back our veil of shadows this and the deceiver are our only real options to get mobile.

Doom Scythe, F - The model itself is more of a D but you can do so much better in the index for high power shooting, let alone if you include FW options. Forced move heavy weapons are goofy.

Wraiths, D - These are still very durable but with the introduction of both multi damage weapons and mortal wounds they are significantly less durable than previous editions. That would still be fine but now they also lack any real punch in close combat and their upgrade options are overpriced. They can operate independently from the rest of your army and bully backline units but they really can't kill a tank or quickly slice up some devastators so they're sort of just a very expensive annoyance that keeps forcing something to make fall back moves.

Scarabs, B - Our cheapest objective squatter, our best screening unit, a solidly mobile light infantry eater, and even able to nibble a couple wounds off a titan in a pinch. Very good at filling in extra points to perform a variety of roles but they also fold like wet paper if anyone looks directly at them.

Tomb Blades, C - I fall on the side of immortals for the buff synergies and so my army as a whole can deny most of the value of high damage weapons but for only 8 points more than 2 immortals you get the same shooting but much more mobility. Their upgrade options aren't really worth it. I think these guys get much better the more LOS blocking terrain is on the table because they are better able to leverage their mobility to get good sight lines and they can dance around assault units that are using the terrain to approach. If updates to 8th see their points lowered or if the competitive scene decides more and more LOS blocking terrain makes for more strategic games then a year from now you could easily see them flipped to A and immortals at C.

Destroyers, C - High AP shooting is a different role from other anti infantry shooting so none of the B infantry are specifically eating the destroyer's lunch but they are very expensive and appreciate a lot of character support. Many of our anti tank B units like DDarks or tesseract arks can pull double duty as anti elite shooters though.

Heavy Destroyer, D - CONTROVERSY! This probably exemplifies the relativity of graded ratings and how my rating differ from the metacritic style C to A scale more than any other entry because heavy destroyers are still some of the most reliable high power shooting in the army if not all of 40k. Prior to the forge world reveal I had these tied with DDarks at B, but now there's like 4 solid anti tank options that perform pretty close to H destroyers at that role while also being able to switch to shooting infantry once the tanks are dead or who are much more durable. Probably better as a 1 of in destroyer units where you can make RP kick in more reliably instead of feeding 225 points to a single artillery salvo.

Spyders, D - They pay a few too many points to act like fat adorable tech priests in the back lines but they're too fragile to get in anything's face. A cheap body to put a gloom prism on compared to FW centipedes but a worse unit than either of those.

Monolith, D - The old girl still does a decent amount of shooting and a threatening back attack as it deep strikes and vomits a unit out its gate, but its lack of QS and the loss of its gate's ability to pull units out of combat have left it in the lurch compared to other heavy units.

A. Barge, D - Annihilation barges are actually pretty good anti horde shooting they just have an unfortunate stat line at t6 8w 4+ which is an ideal target for plasma fire, and the added strength of its big tesla guns doesn't really matter as the 9ish immortals you could be taking put more wounds on hordes. It would shine if there were more light tank style targets where the added strength would make a bigger difference while still having a weak armor save, but most things get good saves as they get tougher.

DDArk, B - Ark hulls are the toughest stat lines we can attach a QS to, and the ability for the cannon to scale up against hordes or just fly away from fights then turn around and give the offending units both flayer arrays and the weaker boom makes the doomsday ark very desirable as a back line anti vehicle power house, and it's not even that expensive at 203 points. Support it with repairs or a screen or targeting relay or don't. It's solid either way.

Tomb Stalker, C - The anti infantry flavor of centipede, it's a little lacking defensively but take 2 of these guys with a gauss pylon and deep strike them in all together next to the opponent's back line and their shredding guns and monster close combat ability will protect the pylon while the pylon gives them the much needed 5++ to protect them from some of the high damage fire they attract.

Acanthrites, D - I really like acanthrites conceptually, wraiths with melta guns who wouldn't want that? But their cutting beams coming in at only 7 strength makes them falter from pushing through really high damage numbers against anything tougher than a rhino and also wound terminators on a 3+ instead of the 2+ a strength 8 weapon would. For 15 more points you could get a heavy destroyer and kill bigger targets from farther away with re-rolling 1s. They do have 1 trick in their bag heavy Ds don't and that's void blades, as weird and overpriced as those are it still makes acanthrites mimic preatorians in their ability to assault to lethal effect after shooting. If you need to pop a transport then charge the unit that falls out with a single unit they are uniquely qualified to do so.

Tomb Sentinel, C - I don't really like that the exile cannon is heavy and only 12", it means you will pretty much always be at 4+ BS which keeps it from being a real replacement for other anti tank options. The stats across his body and his gun are just too damn high to write him off though and he can pop up anywhere you want him so if there's ever a character or artillery or transport or whatever that isn't fully bubble wrapped he can pop up and shatter them. As gloom prism carriers, needing to set them up normally just so you can be sure you have a chance to stop 'da jump' turn 1 because you don't get to make the denial if the model is off the board in reserves is a bit of a conflict of interests but few psychic powers are a threat from turn 1 like that and who wants to tunnel closer to orks anyway.

Gauss Pylon, A - In the old days when forge world was an unofficial product it was models like this disgusting murder machine that made people tell you to pack up because you weren't welcome in their hobby store any more. It kills almost anything in the game in one turn, it deep strikes anywhere while still firing at full BS, since LOS and facing is measured from anywhere on a vehicles hull now instead of its weapon you can trace sight all the way at the top of this very tall model to peek over los blocking terrain, and it even gives any nearby necron, regardless of vehicle or monster or dynasty, a 5++ save. It has 2 weaknesses, its anti infantry shooting is a little lacking in range and quantity for its cost and its damage is so ridiculously high that in the mirror match against another necron player you can't actually hurt anything with quantum shielding, including its main competitors for anti tank slots doomsday arks and tesseract arks. It even fills our slight weakness to aircraft as the -1 to hit is especially crippling to tesla weapons or units that get a penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. This more than any other option outclasses heavy destroyers at their own scoot and pop game, as it scoots across the entire board and pops harder. Defensively it isn't invincible but since it will probably remove its biggest threat the turn it comes down and benefits from its own 5++ aura it will be difficult for most lists to bring down before it pays for itself. Bonus, there's probably no better use for a command point re-roll in any shooting phase than getting its d6 hit count to 4+ reliably.

Tesseract Ark, B - At first glance you might think the t.ark has a versatile main weapon but unlike say choosing between krak and frag missiles or focused and dispersed fire prism shots, the different modes on the ark are mostly used to reflect how you used the ark that turn rather than what you're shooting at. Barring a few exceptions for very specific targets, the chem cannon flamer is mostly good for overwatch especially since combined with its charge range debuff units can't often charge from outside 8 inches, its grav cannon mode is for when it moves, and its krak missile mode is for when it stands still. It's role is basically as a doomsday ark that has a little less strength and ap but potentially double the shots. All modes are d6 hits. It has all the support you might want for the DDark built into its base with the 5++ a gauss pylon might grant a DD, the grav flux stopping charges the way a screening unit might for a DD, the anti infantry power of its tesla cannons is only a litte under a DDarks flayer arrays when it needs to swap from anti tank, and it comes with an extra toughness and better armor save. It even has what i have to assume is a typo in its favor, every other 10 wound model in the game has its stats degrade at 5 wounds while the ark doesn't degrade until 4 wounds. It's downsides in comparison are that it has 4 less wounds, costs 43 more points, despite its slightly better stat line it dies to stuff that slips by QS like rapid-fire battle cannons about as easily as an annihilation barge, if a DDark gets its 10+ model target bonus and its flayer arrays in range at the same time it pulls a little ahead in firepower, and by providing all its own support it doesn't pair very well with other units.

Kuguar6 wrote:
We cant use ghost ark repair after resurection orb, but can we use resurection orb after ghost ark? In most case we dont want but i still want konw if i could.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Klowny wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
The invuln bit is also why I don't rank Orikan so highly. For a significant point increase, you gain the invuln in combat - which you shouldn't be in anyway. Then, the invuln only does anything in combat against weapons of at least AP-2. In my eyes, you're paying extra points to buff units in a situation they don't want to find themselves in, and for some good durability (plus a really random ability I guess). He's okay as a Cryptek, but I'd struggle to rank him above Szeras; I'd probably put him on the same level, a B. I certainly don't think he's close to an autotake unless you're running scythe Lychguard.

I'll cede you the Szeras point, but I disagree on Orikan. If you're taking him you're sticking him with expensive infantry that will likely be seeing a lot of dangerous AP damage (Lychguard, Destroyers, etc), at which point he's invaluable. Anyone who sticks with Warriors doesn't know what they're doing.

Yea I've found the 5++ isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially when you add cover into the mix. I feel szerath is one of the better crypteks, but I still rate toholk as the best of the bunch. All std abilities, buffs vehicles, allows seize rerolls (1st turn has helped me so much), and his weapon is better than average, with scary overwatch damage. Not overly expensive either. Orikan is best ran with lych, he's the best CC cryptek.

I'm not sold on H.Destroyers. Our vehicles (FW included) are comparable in damage and speed, but 10x more durable. I've found my vehicles have saved me from a tabling so I could win on points, something Destroyers can't promise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone complaining about warriors being bad because GA aren't open topped obviously haven't ran a D-bomb with 40 warriors. Putting 40 of them in rapid fire range t1 is a brutal alpha strike. Will shred horde and elite armies front lines equally efficiently. Being open topped would be handy, removing the necessity of 2x 20 man squads and just having 1x 20 and 1x 10 in a GA,

That was me regarding the Warriors.

And I'd rather use the Deceiver to drop something more potent than Warriors and needs to be close by. Gauss Immortals, Lychguard, and certain HQ's. If I could just ferry the Warriors while shooting out the top of the Ark, they'd be fine. To use a Deceiver drop with Warriors though? Utter and complete waste of The Grand Illusion.

 Commissar Arkham wrote:
Too bad there aren't any Canoptek HQs so that there could be a full canoptek list. Even if there was it probably wouldn't be competitive, but a full canoptek list would be fun. Only 351 points for 27 scarabs, you could include a lot in there. You could have a silver tide of scarabs.

JohnnyRotten wrote:
Since the Praets got re-rated:

Is there a certain unit you would stick to a Praed squad for effectiveness? Prefereably a unit, which doesn't slow them down too much. Could They deliver a Nightbringer f.e.?

And do you run them rather as 5 or 10 men squad?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, the staff of light is more expensive for a reason - its a decent ranged weapon and melee weapon, as opposed to the warscythe, which can only be used in melee and quite frankly, isn't as scary as it could be.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Giving everyone a staff of light probably isn't a bad idea, as you can keep you buff providers where they want to be and still allow them to attack.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, I love immortals. They were my favorite elite choice in the 3rd dex, and they are still pretty awesome. Not to mention they are troops nowadays, so I can field even more of them.I really want GW to hurry up and release the FAQ so I can play. I'm still waiting for clarification on RP and the voidblade entry, as well as any other rules issues that may come up.

 Cmdr_Sune wrote:
10 Praetorians with Rods 350 pts
[...]
For 350 points you could get:
- 6 Wraiths and 9 Scarabs
- 7 Lychguard with Scythes and Orikan
- 7 Tomb Blades

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why wouldn't the void blade be changed? Its clearly an error; it has the exact same stats as a hyperphase sword and it goes on the same model at different points costs.