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 vipoid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why wouldn't the void blade be changed? Its clearly an error; it has the exact same stats as a hyperphase sword and it goes on the same model at different points costs.

Because they go on different models - Lychguard and Praetorians.

What's more, even if they are errated to the same cost on an Overlord, who cares?

The "because they go on different models" is very common across the indexes.

Some items represent a different value, depending upon the platform.

Mu guess as to why it has the same stats is that as part of the simplification of 8th, they just normalized a lot of weapons - so you don't have to care as much as to what you modeled on a guy.

I would not mind a bit more diversity - but we don't need endless variations which don't really do much - previous versions had WAY too much of that (remember all the random cryptek junk - most of it useless).

 skoffs wrote:
It needs a different ability. Previously it had the same ability as Scarabs. If they gave it the "wound anything on a 5+" ability, it might be worth the cost (a monster/vehicle hunting weapon).

I thought Voidblade just used to have Rending?

davethepak wrote:

The "because they go on different models" is very common across the indexes.

Some items represent a different value, depending upon the platform.

Sure. But in this case it seems completely irrelevant. You want a S: User AP-3 D1 weapon on your Overlord? Take a Hyperphase Sword.Even if a Voidblade becomes 3pts, it will literally be variety in name only.

davethepak wrote:

Mu guess as to why it has the same stats is that as part of the simplification of 8th, they just normalized a lot of weapons - so you don't have to care as much as to what you modeled on a guy.

Possibly. Kinda annoying then that they kept this but removed the Gauntlets of Fire - which actually were a different weapon. They were also the only weapon in 5th which had both a ranged profile and an effect in melee. They could have easily translated them into 8th (and not just for the sodding Stormlord), and even made them a good and viable weapon.

davethepak wrote:
I would not mind a bit more diversity - but we don't need endless variations which don't really do much - previous versions had WAY too much of that (remember all the random cryptek junk - most of it useless).

Perhaps. But at the same time Crypteks also had some really nice wargear that was subsequently lost. Same with Overlords.

Hell, Necron Lords in 3rd used to have quite a nice selection of Wargear. Sure, there were some dud pieces but there were also a lot of really good ones. And frankly, I'd much rather have a good selection of wargear with some dud items, than have a pitiful 1 or 2 pieces of wargear.

 vipoid wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
It needs a different ability. Previously it had the same ability as Scarabs. If they gave it the "wound anything on a 5+" ability, it might be worth the cost (a monster/vehicle hunting weapon).

I thought Voidblade just used to have Rending?

It used to have entropic strike in 5th. Which was a hilarious ability, but I understand why they dropped it.

Well, I played a game against DA (mostly Bikers and one DW squad) with my Necrons last Saturday.
The Wraiths are still very resilient but not really choppy. I had tesla almost everywhere (Flyers, Barges, and Immortals) but against Marines gauss-weapons could be better.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I played a game against DA (mostly Bikers and one DW squad) with my Necrons last Saturday.
The Wraiths are still very resilient but not really choppy. I had tesla almost everywhere (Flyers, Barges, and Immortals) but against Marines gauss-weapons could be better.

Don't suppose you have a link to your battle report, do you?

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Wraiths are still very resilient but not really choppy.

Do you think there's any value in running a Warscythe Destroyer Lord with them like in the good old days? The Wraiths can protect him from shooting and he can add some extra punch in combat.

 Cmdr_Sune wrote:


I guess it depends on what role they will have in you army.
I would either have a maximum or minimum sized unit.

10 Praetorians with Rods 350 pts
This is an expensive unit that you can't afford to loose or be crippled on turn 1.
They are quite fragile but benefit more from RP since it's a larger unit.
Sadly it's difficult to boost their RP or other stats.

......

Frankly I am looking for an cc option to supplement my DDArk / Tesla Immortal / Warrior Army. To open another trouble spot, with some sort of mobility at it's best.

An since the Canoptek Phantoms got rated down, I was thinking if a 5 Immortal + C'tan NB squad could fill this role or are there provenly better options?

 TheWaspinator wrote:
How big are the Tomb Stalker / Sentinel? I'm wondering if this would make a reasonable alternate model.

https://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=326

Tomb Stalker/Sentinels are large - sitting on a 90mmx120mm base. The puppetswar models there are more of Destroyer alternatives.

 vipoid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, the staff of light is more expensive for a reason - its a decent ranged weapon and melee weapon, as opposed to the warscythe, which can only be used in melee and quite frankly, isn't as scary as it could be.

The Warscythe is really depressing this edition. I think it might be the measly 2 damage, which just doesn't seem like enough for what is supposed to be the most feared weapon in the Necron arsenal. Couldn't they have at least upped its damage against vehicles to replace the old 2d6+S for penetration?

All that said, it's not like the Staff of Light wows me either - especially given its excessive cost. In shooting it's basically just a few more Gauss Blaster shots - which I already have in abundance. In melee it's S5 -2AP Damage 1. Yawn.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Giving everyone a staff of light probably isn't a bad idea, as you can keep you buff providers where they want to be and still allow them to attack.

That's true for Crypteks and Lords, though if I do that with Overlords and D. Lords, I can't help but feel that I'm squandering their stats somewhat.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, I love immortals. They were my favorite elite choice in the 3rd dex, and they are still pretty awesome. Not to mention they are troops nowadays, so I can field even more of them.I really want GW to hurry up and release the FAQ so I can play. I'm still waiting for clarification on RP and the voidblade entry, as well as any other rules issues that may come up.

I woulnd't hold out any hope on the Voidblade being changed (either in price or stats). If RPs gets changed to 'models come back with only 1 wound', I'll probably drop Necrons in this edition.

What you guys really need to do is compare the Warscythe to its Imperial Cousin the Power Fist, as they're both the giant weapons for melee.
So you overall have S8 vs S7, D3 vs 2, and -1 to hit vs No Penalty at all.
The scythe is more consistent, which is pretty awesome when you think about it.

Also the fact that the old Warscythe got a bonus against Vehicles and nothing else is just silly. I could kill a Chimera in one swing but not a Carnifex? How does that make any sense?

Yeah but no one would take a unit of just 3+ dudes with Powerfists and nothing else. And if it was an HQ with a choice between a Powerfist and a gun, I think most would take the gun.

Captains have an attack over Overlords as well, and can take a Powerfist and a gun. The warscythe is consistent, sure, but it doesn't really make up for the stuff it loses imo. The Staff of Light is a specialist gun and a Power Sword, which isn't even bad. The price difference is only 7 points, which makes it a no brainer, unless you're trying to save points, in which case just take the Hyperphase Sword which is still a fine melee weapon and way cheaper than the Warscythe.

 Cmdr_Sune wrote:


I guess it depends on what role they will have in you army.
I would either have a maximum or minimum sized unit.

10 Praetorians with Rods 350 pts
This is an expensive unit that you can't afford to loose or be crippled on turn 1.
They are quite fragile but benefit more from RP since it's a larger unit.
Sadly it's difficult to boost their RP or other stats.

To make them work:
- Position them so that they only can receive a minimum amount of shooting from heavy weapons, preferable in cover or out of sight.
- Have something more in the army that the opponent sees as a huge threat.
- Support them with something equally fast such as Scarabs, Wraiths etc.
- Perhaps also have a Destroyer Lord or C'tan to give them more punch.

For 350 points you could get:
- 6 Wraiths and 9 Scarabs
- 7 Lychguard with Scythes and Orikan
- 7 Tomb Blades

5 Praetorians with Rods 175 pts
Remove objective holders such as scouts.
Support your other CC units with combo charges.
Might also be used as bodyguard/combo chargers for a C'tan or Destroyer Lord.
If your desperate they can be used as a tarpit/screening unit.

To make them work
- Keep them out of sight or in cover.
- Only engage units that they can easily defeat if their purpose is to clear objective holders.

For 175 point you could get:
- 9 Deathmarks
- 8 Flayed ones
- 3 Wraiths and 3 Scarabs
- 6 Lychguard with Scythes

I think we might differ on the fragile thing, 10 man prats have 20 wounds t5 and and a 3+ save, which is to say take the amount of firepower required to wipe out a warrior blob, and increase that by almost half, and that's what it takes to wipe out prats. Even if we count the fact they will attract lots of heavy weapons, it's around 32 lascannon shots to get them off of the table assuming space marine accuracy, because las cannons wound on 3+, prats get a 6+ save, and 1 in 6 shots won't do enough damage to kill one outright. At S5 -3 ap 10 shots and 20 CC attacks they have to be dealt with, you're opponent can't let them run around his backline hitting whatever they choose to. as for price comparisons:

6 wraiths and 9 scarabs, it's kind of an odd comparison because scarabs are in a completely different role, and arguably wraiths as well, and while tougher they hit like wet noodles. They also don't get RP so they will end up being easier to kill over a course of a few turns.
7 lychguard and orikan, a better comparison, but one that ends clearly in the prats favor, since orikan and the lychguard are exclusively counter chargers and objective holders. At a 5" movement and no shooting they will have a tough time ever getting close enough to get work done.
7 tomb blades, kind of an awkward number of tomb blades, it might have been better to say 6 kitted out tomb blades, with shield vanes and nebuloscopes. Which would make them as tough, much faster, and depending on loadout (gauss or tesla) better at taking on certain target profiles. The problem is tesla has no AP, and gauss requires them to be danger close for maximum effect. In both case they aren't as universally good as 10 prats, who work well against heavy infantry and hordes.

Requizen wrote:
Yeah but no one would take a unit of just 3+ dudes with Powerfists and nothing else. And if it was an HQ with a choice between a Powerfist and a gun, I think most would take the gun.

Captains have an attack over Overlords as well, and can take a Powerfist and a gun. The warscythe is consistent, sure, but it doesn't really make up for the stuff it loses imo. The Staff of Light is a specialist gun and a Power Sword, which isn't even bad. The price difference is only 7 points, which makes it a no brainer, unless you're trying to save points, in which case just take the Hyperphase Sword which is still a fine melee weapon and way cheaper than the Warscythe.

What gun is the Captain taking though? No pistol is going to make any difference in melee vs the Overlord or Destroyer Lord. And the extra attack matters little because the Captain isn't hitting much more in melee (literally a difference of 0.1 hits).

I really hope at some point the Monolith gets back its ability to pull units that are on the table and spit them back out. Seeing as a few armies have the ability to deep strike post deploying (the Tau have that locator and Marines have the teleport homer).

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I really hope at some point the Monolith gets back its ability to pull units that are on the table and spit them back out. Seeing as a few armies have the ability to deep strike post deploying (the Tau have that locator and Marines have the teleport homer).

Lots of things will come back/change when we get a codex, I think the thing we need the most is wargear but that might be a minority opinion. I kind of hope instead of half fast summoning we have currently we get actual for really real summoning, but only for units with the infantry keyword. This could allow us to summon warriors, immortals, destroyers, lychguard, prats, and flayed ones as needed, which would give us back a lot of the flexibility we lost this edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What you guys really need to do is compare the Warscythe to its Imperial Cousin the Power Fist, as they're both the giant weapons for melee.
So you overall have S8 vs S7, D3 vs 2, and -1 to hit vs No Penalty at all.
The scythe is more consistent, which is pretty awesome when you think about it.

Consistency would be great if it was actually good. As it is it's consistently mediocre - which really isn't what you want for what is supposed to be the strongest weapon in the Necron arsenal.

What's more, as has already been said, other HQs can get both a gun and a power fist - whilst Necron HQs that take Warscythes can't take anything else.

Also, wouldn't a more honest comparison be Warscythe vs Thunderhammer? The hammer is also consistent - doing a straight 3 damage.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also the fact that the old Warscythe got a bonus against Vehicles and nothing else is just silly. I could kill a Chimera in one swing but not a Carnifex? How does that make any sense?

I agree. But why would you prefer them to have no bonus against anything?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

What gun is the Captain taking though? No pistol is going to make any difference in melee vs the Overlord or Destroyer Lord.

Who said anything about vs the Overlord? Having a Combi-plasma lets the captain reach out across the table (as opposed to melee or nothing like a warscythe overlord).

All the hype revolving the DDA, I've been thinking..

Why not have one as your warlord?

With 2 other DDA's and 3 scarab units screening + 2 Spyders repairing the veichles, the survivability seems solid.
Not risking the overlords I'm using to be focused down, having the DDA as a warlord makes the enemy want to kill the DDA even harder. But with Spyders and Living Metal, and some proper screening/placing, it shouldn't be as free a warlord kill as having one of the overlords being the warlord. And the warlord traits aren't that exciting for a shooty army.



Thoughts?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Yeah but no one would take a unit of just 3+ dudes with Powerfists and nothing else. And if it was an HQ with a choice between a Powerfist and a gun, I think most would take the gun.

Captains have an attack over Overlords as well, and can take a Powerfist and a gun. The warscythe is consistent, sure, but it doesn't really make up for the stuff it loses imo. The Staff of Light is a specialist gun and a Power Sword, which isn't even bad. The price difference is only 7 points, which makes it a no brainer, unless you're trying to save points, in which case just take the Hyperphase Sword which is still a fine melee weapon and way cheaper than the Warscythe.

What gun is the Captain taking though? No pistol is going to make any difference in melee vs the Overlord or Destroyer Lord. And the extra attack matters little because the Captain isn't hitting much more in melee (literally a difference of 0.1 hits).

Not talking about 1v1, but about how it affects the game. Both can take a pretty good melee weapon (but not have enough attacks to really swing the tides of battle in a huge way), but the Captain can do it and also take a Combi weapon that makes him a threat at a range. I doubt anyone would consider a Captain with just a Powerfist and no gun.

Hiddius wrote:All the hype revolving the DDA, I've been thinking..

Why not have one as your warlord?

With 2 other DDA's and 3 scarab units screening + 2 Spyders repairing the veichles, the survivability seems solid.
Not risking the overlords I'm using to be focused down, having the DDA as a warlord makes the enemy want to kill the DDA even harder. But with Spyders and Living Metal, and some proper screening/placing, it shouldn't be as free a warlord kill as having one of the overlords being the warlord. And the warlord traits aren't that exciting for a shooty army.

Thoughts?

But why though? You have to bring at least 1 HQ anyway, so given how hard DDArks are to kill, just take a cheap Lord and stick him in the middle of them. The opponent has to chew through 3 DDArks to get to him unless they have mass Snipers. Essentially the same thing but even safer.

But why though? You have to bring at least 1 HQ anyway, so given how hard DDArks are to kill, just take a cheap Lord and stick him in the middle of them. The opponent has to chew through 3 DDArks to get to him unless they have mass Snipers. Essentially the same thing but even safer.

I like making use of my points. Having a lord just standing there doing pretty much nothing feels quite bad. I'm not dismissing the point you made, just that I see alot of gains to be made by having a big target on the DDA's head.

Here's the list I'm thinking of trying this weekend, any thoughts?

- 2x Warrior blobs with Orikan (should I just downgrade to Cryptek?) and Ghost Ark support
- 1x Immortal unit with Overlord for MWBD
- 2x DDA for ranged pain
- 1x Deathmark unit for shenanigans and sniping psykers or deep striking units
- 1x Stalker at 36" for the buff and some extra fire
- 2x 5 scarab units for shielding either the DDAs or the firing line, I think more of these would be better but not sure what to sacrifice

Thoughts/comments/suggestions?

Im just after fight vs Thousand sons for 1500 pts. I win with table
For a moment i will write a report. Opponent do some mistake and i roll to seize the initiative.
I use immortal, stalker HGC, DDA, Anrakyr, Szeras and Nightbringer.
All have his place in army i done his job well.
Before i play with warrior and canoptek scarabs/wraiths. Immortal was better then warriors. Canoptek miss buff and arent good for 5++ spam army.
Anrakyr are man of the match. I use him for counter atack. With heroic intervention with all my character i can counter 5 Scarabs Terminator or Daemon Prince with no cc regular unit in my army.
Plan was simple. Stalker with DDA shoot above silver tide. Characters are close to front. All Immo close and fire from 24". Disadvantages are slow tide but big fire power give it back.

Grimgold wrote:
I think we might differ on the fragile thing, 10 man prats have 20 wounds t5 and and a 3+ save, which is to say take the amount of firepower required to wipe out a warrior blob, and increase that by almost half, and that's what it takes to wipe out prats. Even if we count the fact they will attract lots of heavy weapons, it's around 32 lascannon shots to get them off of the table assuming space marine accuracy, because las cannons wound on 3+, prats get a 6+ save, and 1 in 6 shots won't do enough damage to kill one outright.

Yes, you are correct. They are not extremely fragile, but remember that there are also many D2 and D1d3 weapons such as plasma guns and auto cannons.

At S5 -3 ap 10 shots and 20 CC attacks they have to be dealt with, you're opponent can't let them run around his backline hitting whatever they choose to. as for price comparisons:

6 wraiths and 9 scarabs, it's kind of an odd comparison because scarabs are in a completely different role, and arguably wraiths as well, and while tougher they hit like wet noodles. They also don't get RP so they will end up being easier to kill over a course of a few turns.

It was only an example of other fast units.
By the way 9 Scarabs puts out 36 attacks and costs 117 points. You get 27 Scarabs for 351 points and they have a combined 108 attacks and 81 wounds. If your opponents uses heavy weapons against them they are welcome.
As for Wraiths a better comparison would probably be 7 Wraiths with beamers. They have actually a decent damage output if allowed to shoot and charge. They are also more resilent and faster than Praetorians.

7 lychguard and orikan, a better comparison, but one that ends clearly in the prats favor, since orikan and the lychguard are exclusively counter chargers and objective holders. At a 5" movement and no shooting they will have a tough time ever getting close enough to get work done.

I agree.

7 tomb blades, kind of an awkward number of tomb blades, it might have been better to say 6 kitted out tomb blades, with shield vanes and nebuloscopes. Which would make them as tough, much faster, and depending on loadout (gauss or tesla) better at taking on certain target profiles. The problem is tesla has no AP, and gauss requires them to be danger close for maximum effect. In both case they aren't as universally good as 10 prats, who work well against heavy infantry and hordes.

7 kitted out Tomb Blades are 351 points.
I would probably equip them with Teslas.
Tomb Blades are not good in CC, but are faster with better range so that you can position them for good shots.

Kuguar6 wrote:
Im just after fight vs Thousand sons for 1500 pts. I win with table
For a moment i will write a report. Opponent do some mistake and i roll to seize the initiative.
I use immortal, stalker HGC, DDA, Anrakyr, Szeras and Nightbringer.
All have his place in army i done his job well.
Before i play with warrior and canoptek scarabs/wraiths. Immortal was better then warriors. Canoptek miss buff and arent good for 5++ spam army.
Anrakyr are man of the match. I use him for counter atack. With heroic intervention with all my character i can counter 5 Scarabs Terminator or Daemon Prince with no cc regular unit in my army.
Plan was simple. Stalker with DDA shoot above silver tide. Characters are close to front. All Immo close and fire from 24". Disadvantages are slow tide but big fire power give it back.

Awesome to hear! What kind of weapons did you use on the Immortals, and what size did you run them? Small units or big 10 man units?

Did you miss the 5++ from a regular Cryptek compared to Szeras or did you not really notice it?

Anrakyr cost 178 pts? 167 himself and 11 warscyte? Battle Scribe count him for 167 but it is misstake in my opinion.
So 66 more then Overlord not only 55.
But still worth in my oppinion for silver tide army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

Kuguar6 wrote:
Im just after fight vs Thousand sons for 1500 pts. I win with table
For a moment i will write a report. Opponent do some mistake and i roll to seize the initiative.
I use immortal, stalker HGC, DDA, Anrakyr, Szeras and Nightbringer.
All have his place in army i done his job well.
Before i play with warrior and canoptek scarabs/wraiths. Immortal was better then warriors. Canoptek miss buff and arent good for 5++ spam army.
Anrakyr are man of the match. I use him for counter atack. With heroic intervention with all my character i can counter 5 Scarabs Terminator or Daemon Prince with no cc regular unit in my army.
Plan was simple. Stalker with DDA shoot above silver tide. Characters are close to front. All Immo close and fire from 24". Disadvantages are slow tide but big fire power give it back.

Awesome to hear! What kind of weapons did you use on the Immortals, and what size did you run them? Small units or big 10 man units?

Did you miss the 5++ from a regular Cryptek compared to Szeras or did you not really notice it?

Its my report https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730793.page.
Its rather rarely when i was below 5+. I havent got warriors and my opponent haven got lot of ap 3 weapon. But szeras dont help me too much with augmentation. Only one +1 T (+2 W save) and two +1 S (nothing). But he help counter atack (5 A -2 AP) and wound two time with eldritch lance. For first shot i reroll 1D using comand point with 6D and kill hellbrute.

Named Characters have gear included in their cost.

Named characters points have wargear included. It states it in parentheses under points per model.

Edit: damn, Joeproton beat me haha

 Solosam47 wrote:
Named characters points have wargear included. It states it in parentheses under points per model.

Edit: damn, Joeproton beat me haha

Now i see! Thanks. Its easy to miss this parentheses.

 RivenSkull wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
How big are the Tomb Stalker / Sentinel? I'm wondering if this would make a reasonable alternate model.

https://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=326

Tomb Stalker/Sentinels are large - sitting on a 90mmx120mm base. The puppetswar models there are more of Destroyer alternatives.

Oh well. That model could be a good Destroyer Lord then, I guess.

Anyone have any better ideas for an alternate Tomb Stalker / Sentinel model?

 TheWaspinator wrote:

 RivenSkull wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
How big are the Tomb Stalker / Sentinel? I'm wondering if this would make a reasonable alternate model.

https://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=326

Tomb Stalker/Sentinels are large - sitting on a 90mmx120mm base. The puppetswar models there are more of Destroyer alternatives.

Oh well. That model could be a good Destroyer Lord then, I guess.

Anyone have any better ideas for an alternate Tomb Stalker / Sentinel model?

While we're on a modeling discussion, what model are people using for Toholk the Blinded? Just a converted cryptek? I have no idea what he looks like. I still need to get the IA xenos index, is there artwork in there?

neenj wrote:
While we're on a modeling discussion, what model are people using for Toholk the Blinded? Just a converted cryptek? I have no idea what he looks like. I still need to get the IA xenos index, is there artwork in there?

When I get home I'm going to get to green stuffing one of my crypteks. A rag tied over his eye, and a tattered cape like a lord. Maybe change the bottom of his staff to symbolise the repair ability he has for vehicles.