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2017/07/01 01:56:44
Subject: Re: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
Illusion up the Deceiver, TB and praets, with a scarab unit if a 3 is rolled on the GI. Depending on the army you're facing deploy Scarabs as screening units for DDA's or aggressively if not facing many DS threats. Spyder stays with stalker and regen's it as this will be further upfield than the Arks and a smart general will focus it down. 2 arks means significant board control, virtually guaranteeing LoS to critical targets. Lords hide to deny Slay the Warlord, and can be used as sacrificial bait for DS heavy armies to bait them into unfavourable positions for the arks to retaliate upon. Unless vs'ing a smite spam army the deceiver can act independently, but otherwise use the praetorians to screen the deceiver into CC. They want to be there just as much as he does, and can RP ignore the mortal wounds. The tomb blades are more shooting/objective oriented.
Perhaps you could drop the Spyder and a unit of Scarabs and upgrade the Lords to Destroyer Lords with Warscythes. That would give you a bit more punch.
Very much looking forward to hear how it went.
As for the ITC rules they make sense to me, but I haven't tried them out.
Yeah a d/lord would provide more punch, but I want to isolate the praets and TB's for effectiveness atm. Trying to gauge real world strength of units. Otherwise I would normally prefer more CC. I want to run a d/cult in the future (just looks underwhelming to me atm). But I hope it's better than I imagine. Dropping the spyder in favour of a third HQ and detachment is a good idea skoffs. Will see what I can do.
I haven't seen the ITC rules. So it's not whoever deploys first, they just get a +1 to the roll off? That's annoying, as horde armies already get multiple tactical advantages for having so many units, and now they get an extra bonus of not being forced to go second. Really bad decision imo, don't like it at all.
What's the objective rule?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/01 02:05:02
12,000
2017/07/01 04:21:51
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
No, the ITC first turn rule is much much better.
With the current rule, armies that don't have viable or any transports will always go second.
For example, I have AdMech and Daemons. So for the entire 8th edition, I'll go first on a 6? Doesn't that sound like the dumbest thing ever?
Besides, the rule was changed because it promotes boring list building. Think about it, you are incentivised to bring less units. Less units = less variety. This way shooty armies can minimise unit count and always go first and blow the other army to bits. Especially Knights, since in a TAC format, they just blow up the part of the army that can reliably hurt them turn one
Gives you a couple of Warscythes to play with, plus some Psychic defense, with Praets and TBs at the same amount of wounds (to match armor and toughness).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/01 04:32:26
2017/07/01 06:34:40
Subject: Re: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
Gives you a couple of Warscythes to play with, plus some Psychic defense, with Praets and TBs at the same amount of wounds (to match armor and toughness).
This is good if you want to maximize on CP, but here you have 1 less Praetorian and one more Lord that doesn't have any purpose. Like the gloom prism on the Spyder though.
The gloom prism will be a good addition to Klownys original list.
2017/07/01 06:50:26
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
Three Warscythe/Sword-Lords all sticking together is a decent combat threat. Nothing terrifying, per se, but still not something most units want to be in combat with.
2017/07/01 07:00:59
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
rvd1ofakind wrote: No, the ITC first turn rule is much much better.
With the current rule, armies that don't have viable or any transports will always go second.
For example, I have AdMech and Daemons. So for the entire 8th edition, I'll go first on a 6? Doesn't that sound like the dumbest thing ever?
Besides, the rule was changed because it promotes boring list building. Think about it, you are incentivised to bring less units. Less units = less variety. This way shooty armies can minimise unit count and always go first and blow the other army to bits. Especially Knights, since in a TAC format, they just blow up the part of the army that can reliably hurt them turn one
I agree, for all non horde armies it is a much more balanced way of doing it.
But, horde are top their atm, due to how spammable and cheap they are. They can easily fill a brigade and ancillary detachment. Meaning ridiculously more CP for them. Also, they can strategically place their chaff units until you've run out of units, then place their heavy hitters in the most advantageous place for them and worst place for you. Two advantages out of the gate. I've averaged around 10-12 units a game, nids and guard are pushing 20+, with around 15 CP to my 7.
The only downside to this was that they HAD to go second. Now they don't, there is a good chance they will ALSO get first turn (having way more CP means they can reroll their seize dice). So they get the advantage in CP, advantage in strategic placement and likely also get 1st turn.
This option has literally buffed horde armies, and horde armies don't need any more buffs atm.
12,000
2017/07/01 07:41:20
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
rvd1ofakind wrote: No, the ITC first turn rule is much much better.
With the current rule, armies that don't have viable or any transports will always go second.
For example, I have AdMech and Daemons. So for the entire 8th edition, I'll go first on a 6? Doesn't that sound like the dumbest thing ever?
Besides, the rule was changed because it promotes boring list building. Think about it, you are incentivised to bring less units. Less units = less variety. This way shooty armies can minimise unit count and always go first and blow the other army to bits. Especially Knights, since in a TAC format, they just blow up the part of the army that can reliably hurt them turn one
This makes a lot of sense. Im new to 40k but ive played a lot of other tabletop games to a very competitive level - and the default way 40k decides 1st is very off to me. You deploy knowing with near certainty who will go first which ends up with some very aggressive shooting gallery style deploys. Havent seen a single report yet where someone seized first turn and lost, when you deploy to go first and go second its game ending. That seems like way too big a deciding factor in a game. Having a roll off for first turn requires both players to be more tactical with deployment, strike a balance between aggressive early options and also staying safe.
2017/07/01 09:43:38
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
rvd1ofakind wrote: No, the ITC first turn rule is much much better.
With the current rule, armies that don't have viable or any transports will always go second.
For example, I have AdMech and Daemons. So for the entire 8th edition, I'll go first on a 6? Doesn't that sound like the dumbest thing ever?
Besides, the rule was changed because it promotes boring list building. Think about it, you are incentivised to bring less units. Less units = less variety. This way shooty armies can minimise unit count and always go first and blow the other army to bits. Especially Knights, since in a TAC format, they just blow up the part of the army that can reliably hurt them turn one
I agree, for all non horde armies it is a much more balanced way of doing it.
But, horde are top their atm, due to how spammable and cheap they are. They can easily fill a brigade and ancillary detachment. Meaning ridiculously more CP for them. Also, they can strategically place their chaff units until you've run out of units, then place their heavy hitters in the most advantageous place for them and worst place for you. Two advantages out of the gate. I've averaged around 10-12 units a game, nids and guard are pushing 20+, with around 15 CP to my 7.
The only downside to this was that they HAD to go second. Now they don't, there is a good chance they will ALSO get first turn (having way more CP means they can reroll their seize dice). So they get the advantage in CP, advantage in strategic placement and likely also get 1st turn.
This option has literally buffed horde armies, and horde armies don't need any more buffs atm.
To be fair, they could just drop the whole 'alternate unit deployment' aspect. Just have one player set up their whole army, then the other player sets up their army. Whoever set up first goes first.
Among other things it would probably save quite a bit of time.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/07/01 09:57:14
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
Or they could take seizing out of the game completely. It's the most stressful roll of the game, every game. You shouldn't get punished for being aggressive because you think you are going first. If everyone was cautious in deployment it would also be a need to shooty armies as the big guns are heavy and get a penalty for moving into position, whereas nids and orks and all that want to just bum rush anyway.
GW give you a deployment method, so you play the best you can to make the most out of it, and then on an unlucky dice roll you lose the game 9/10 times.
I've set up many times joking that I'll have to concede t1 if I get seized on. I've just been lucky most times.
Lucky the deceiver is so cheap for what he does
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/01 10:00:44
12,000
2017/07/01 13:05:31
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
The problem with having the least go first and you are guaranteed to go first is with the way this game plays it is a guaramteed first blood. So going first and being up one point per game is a little too much to always count on. Not even talking about setting up objectives knowing you get pick table side and such
2017/07/01 16:14:25
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ok, let's look at the tournament results. Top 3:
harlequins
fliers marines.
Which fliers?
All fliers?
BA marine flyer spam, he is in my local meta, kind of a douche. I expressed my dislike of how cheesy that was, and my skepticism that lists like it would finish within shooting distance of the top table in a real tournament, we'll just say my FB group was less than thrilled with my analysis. it, I call em like I see em. Six flyers, with a unit of tac marines and a captain.
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
2017/07/01 16:36:20
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
ooooooo, I wanna spam Gauss Sentry Pylons on someone like that SO HARD.
Haha, after a quick check, it would seem, yes, you can quite comfortably spam Sentry Pylons. Throw in a few Lords to make some Spearhear Detachments for CP. Fill the remaining points out with Scarabs to flood objectives. Yeah, I can see a list like that being quite difficult for anything but hordes to handle.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/01 16:55:51
2017/07/01 16:52:39
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
Hey there. Great discussion going on here. (First time poster... etc. etc.). Really enjoying 8th so far. Gotten 4 games in.
Had a question, and a few comments about 3 of our units: Praetorians, DDarks, Heavy Destroyers.
1. Can anyone tell me about how getting our own Necron codex will work in the future? - Right now we're included in the Xenos volume, but that's not supposed to be the final? - What will change when/if we get our own codex? - Any idea on timeline there?
2. Praetorians - Voidblade and Particle Caster is the better setup, unless you are more likely going against MEQs. Shooting into an existing combat and getting an "effective" extra Str 6 attack while in combat on your turn is useful. - Everyone is mentioning their inability to get "buffed" by other units. But unless I'm missing something, Anrakyr's MWBD work and his extra attack work on <NECRON> <INFANTRY>, making him ideal for the purpose. Same is true of Szeras. Pretty much the only thing you can't get is a 5+ invul from a regular Cryptek. Seems like a non-issue. Of course, keeping them in cohesion is tough with the movement-disparity : /. I think Anrakyr and Szeras are the best value HQs choices regardless of Dynasty. - Expensive. Wondering if these points are more effective as Scarab Swarms... for the same "role"
3. Doomsday Ark - Pro: It is essentially invincible between Living Metal, 14W and QS. - Pro: 10 Gauss Shots at 24" Str 4, AP -1. ( I actually only fired 5 per turn in my game, not being used to the profile!) - Con: D3 Shots on the cannon. I do not like the variance. Getting 1 shot a turn feels bad. I guess if I do not like variance I'm playing the wrong game. - Con: Immobility. You almost never want to move. -1 to hit, -48" range, less Str, but often you don't need to move, as there are generally targets available.
4. 3 Heavy Destroyers - Pro: Always get 3 shots. - Pro: Reroll 1s to hit. - Pro: 50 points fewer than DDark - Pro: Higher Mobility ( Valuable in an army like ours) - Con: Much less durable than the Doomsday Ark. Presents a wonderful target for the many D3 guns available. - Con: Reduced Range 36" is good, but if you're within 36", your enemies guns are as well.
- Thinking that 2-3 DDarks and a Stalker are the go-to source of high Str, D6 shooting, and durable as well. Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are probably too fragile, too low-range and a big target for D3/D6 weapons. I've convinced myself not to take them doing this analysis.
- Praetorians are probably a solid role-player if used correctly.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/01 17:02:54
2017/07/01 17:24:30
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
2. Praetorians
- Voidblade and Particle Caster is the better setup, unless you are more likely going against MEQs. Shooting into an existing combat and getting an "effective" extra Str 6 attack while in combat on your turn is useful.
- Everyone is mentioning their inability to get "buffed" by other units. But unless I'm missing something, Anrakyr's MWBD work and his extra attack work on <NECRON> <INFANTRY>, making him ideal for the purpose. Same is true of Szeras. Pretty much the only thing you can't get is a 5+ invul from a regular Cryptek. Seems like a non-issue. Of course, keeping them in cohesion is tough with the movement-disparity : /. I think Anrakyr and Szeras are the best value HQs choices regardless of Dynasty.
If prets must wait for hq lose his mobility. Anrakyr move 5", szeras 6". Both are fly less.
4. 3 Heavy Destroyers
- Pro: Always get 3 shots.
- Pro: Reroll 1s to hit.
- Pro: 50 points fewer than DDark
- Pro: Higher Mobility ( Valuable in an army like ours)
- Con: Much less durable than the Doomsday Ark. Presents a wonderful target for the many D3 guns available.
- Con: Reduced Range 36" is good, but if you're within 36", your enemies guns are as well.
How you count this points? Heavy Destroyer cost 75 pts, 3 - 225 pts. DDA cost 203 pts, so less.
2017/07/01 18:39:11
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
Some clarification:
The Triarch Stalker's Twin HGC has 2 shots. Because we can split fire this edition, does that mean each shot can target a different unit, or do both shots have to be against the same target?
And for it's Targeting Relay ability, do the Stalkers shots actually have to HIT for other units to get the reroll-1s buff?
Because if it can split its shots between two targets AND not necessarily have to hit them to grant its bonus, perhaps a single HGC Stalker + 1 Heat S. Pylon + 1 Gauss S. Pylon could make an interesting fire team
2017/07/01 19:28:20
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
skoffs wrote:Some clarification:
The Triarch Stalker's Twin HGC has 2 shots. Because we can split fire this edition, does that mean each shot can target a different unit, or do both shots have to be against the same target?
And for it's Targeting Relay ability, do the Stalkers shots actually have to HIT for other units to get the reroll-1s buff?
Because if it can split its shots between two targets AND not necessarily have to hit them to grant its bonus, perhaps a single HGC Stalker + 1 Heat S. Pylon + 1 Gauss S. Pylon could make an interesting fire team
It definitely can not split it's two shots. It's per weapon, for vehicles that can fire more than one weapon.
The profile is "Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon". A single weapon that gets two shots. Not two weapons. It would say, "It is equipped with two Heavy Gauss Cannons", like the DDark entry for it's flayer arrays.
Secondly, It will grant the bonus to re-rolls even if it misses both shots, per the entry wording: "... any Necron unit that makes a shooting attack against a unit that has already been attacked by an Triach Stalkers in this phase." I can declare a shooting attack against a target, with my Triarch Stalker, miss all shots, but i still attacked that unit with my Stalker.
How you count this points? Heavy Destroyer cost 75 pts, 3 - 225 pts. DDA cost 203 pts, so less.
Massive idiocy. I only added up for a unit of 2 Heavy Destroyers. Even worse!!!
And yes, the point about the HQs is that they are much slower than Praetorians is true, but I was mostly talking about how they still benefit from the "Buffs" of MWBD and better RP... so I didn't see what people were talking about in terms of not being able to be buffed.
2017/07/01 19:33:20
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
@klowny, the objective marker ITC rules is just that objectives have set equidistant board placement and are not placed by the players. i think the reason was that people who got to choose deployment zones and shapes got too much of an advantage or something?
@nubsauce the indexes are just temporary army lists meant to bring everyone into 8th edition. Over the next year or 2 we'll see a codex a month or so come out, updating and fleshing out the rules and wargear for that army, usually along with a product push of new models/sculpts and a white dwarf issue advertising those with a splashy cover and some articles on painting/playing with the new goodies. No idea when the necron one will come, could be a while.
For unit evaluations you're more or less on point.
Preatorians I'd say rods are the better pick. Most infantry fights are resolved brutally fast, the unit you're facing has to survive 1 round of shooting and 2 rounds of fighting before you get the pistols in close combat bonus attack. For a full unit of preatorians that's 10 shots then 20 attacks then another 20 attacks, minus a few hits for whatever you lose in overwatch or return attacks between those 3 steps. Not many units in the game will survive long enough for particle casters to matter compared to every unit with an armor save hating rod shots.
@skoffs Twin and Two are the important distinction here. Twin weapons should have their own weapon profile and cost and count as a single weapon that has to shoot the same unit while Two like tomb blade guns is literally 2 dif weapons you pay for twice and can shoot at different things.
2017/07/01 19:46:40
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
I've been running lists utilizing several DDAs (6-8) and have gotten some of my best use out of them by moving 2-3 to bring flayer arcs into rapid fire range to delete units, while leaving a few back to drop long range anti tank fire. Next turn I move the ones that stayed still and hold the ones that moved. In this manner you can leap frog around the board in a manner of speaking. You can still almost always find good targets for the low powered shots.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/01 19:59:00
11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die. ++
Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
2017/07/01 20:15:45
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
Maelstrom808 wrote: I've been running lists utilizing several DDAs (6-8) and have gotten some of my best use out of them by moving 2-3 to bring flayer arcs into rapid fire range to delete units, while leaving a few back to drop long range anti tank fire. Next turn I move the ones that stayed still and hold the ones that moved. In this manner you can leap frog around the board in a manner of speaking. You can still almost always find good targets for the low powered shots.
Six to eight? What size games are these or are you running min size immortals to fit within 2k?
2017/07/01 20:44:18
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
Maelstrom808 wrote: I've been running lists utilizing several DDAs (6-8) and have gotten some of my best use out of them by moving 2-3 to bring flayer arcs into rapid fire range to delete units, while leaving a few back to drop long range anti tank fire. Next turn I move the ones that stayed still and hold the ones that moved. In this manner you can leap frog around the board in a manner of speaking. You can still almost always find good targets for the low powered shots.
Six to eight? What size games are these or are you running min size immortals to fit within 2k?
His sig says he has 5600 points of Necron, so I'm guessing pretty big ones!
The strategy sounds pretty solid. I never even thought about trying to get the barge into Rapid Fire range. But 20 shots of Str 4. AP -1 is nothing to be taken lightly! And the mobility from 12" movement, and the Fly keyword to exit CC is awesome. DDarks are so tough, they actually make a decent front-liner for any size army...
Nice. I'm sure my opponents are going to greatly dislike those.
2017/07/01 20:51:57
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
2500 point games so higher than the standard 2k. The last couple of lists had zero troop units. One had a couple of CCBs and a couple of stalkers because it was a 100% QS list. It was mostly an experiment. Currently playing around with a list with 6 DDAs, 1 TS, 3 wraith units, nightbringer, and a couple of destroyer lords. It's done pretty well so far. I've got a team game in a days that is 1500 points per player so I'm considering how I want to down size. Even at 2k, it should be entirely possible to run 5-6 DDAs without too much fuss.
Maelstrom808 wrote: I've been running lists utilizing several DDAs (6-8) and have gotten some of my best use out of them by moving 2-3 to bring flayer arcs into rapid fire range to delete units, while leaving a few back to drop long range anti tank fire. Next turn I move the ones that stayed still and hold the ones that moved. In this manner you can leap frog around the board in a manner of speaking. You can still almost always find good targets for the low powered shots.
Six to eight? What size games are these or are you running min size immortals to fit within 2k?
His sig says he has 5600 points of Necron, so I'm guessing pretty big ones!
The strategy sounds pretty solid. I never even thought about trying to get the barge into Rapid Fire range. But 20 shots of Str 4. AP -1 is nothing to be taken lightly! And the mobility from 12" movement, and the Fly keyword to exit CC is awesome. DDarks are so tough, they actually make a decent front-liner for any size army...
Nice. I'm sure my opponents are going to greatly dislike those.
Lol, I forgot that was even there since I don't see sigs on my phone. It hasn't been updated since early 6e. I've added to it and I'm sure with 8e points it will go up a bit
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/01 21:03:31
11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die. ++
Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
2017/07/02 00:39:33
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
Remembering a comment made earlier in the thread about the ITC first turn rule; didn't see it mentioned but you can't use a CP to seize the initiative under the ITC format. Or in the first battle round. Far more balanced that way.
2017/07/02 00:51:44
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / Forge World analysis p.69 / Combos discussion p.75
12,000 
it, I call em like I see em. Six flyers, with a unit of 
7,000 pts
