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 vipoid wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
I plan to run him as a CC threat on his own, surrounded by 6 wraiths with pistols. It's very mobile, quite survivable and has formidable punch against most non-horde targets.

If you don't mind me asking, why not use a Destroyer Lord for this instead?

I don't know if you'd need Wraiths to accompany a Destroyer Lord.
The old Wraith Wing build is dead, now that D.Lords only convey buffs to other Destroyers.
A Destroyer Lord accompanied by screening Scarabs would be a more cost effective way to deliver a Warscythe to their front lines quickly.

Hey All

Quick question on the TA, i notice that people have been rating the point value at 240 (+20 for the gauss cannon) but in the rules it states that it has two gauss cannon so should the value of the TA be 260?

 skoffs wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
I plan to run him as a CC threat on his own, surrounded by 6 wraiths with pistols. It's very mobile, quite survivable and has formidable punch against most non-horde targets.

If you don't mind me asking, why not use a Destroyer Lord for this instead?

I don't know if you'd need Wraiths to accompany a Destroyer Lord.
The old Wraith Wing build is dead, now that D.Lords only convey buffs to other Destroyers.
A Destroyer Lord accompanied by screening Scarabs would be a more cost effective way to deliver a Warscythe to their front lines quickly.

But you can do the same thing with Scarabs + CCB? 2" is not a lot of movement to lose when you're already going 10", and with Advances you might not even lose any movement. Scarabs are cheaper, more efficient for both units. And for killing power, the only thing the Overlord has over the DLord is the better shooting weapon, so if you want a "CC threat", why not use the DLord, or even a C'tan who can do the same thing but also scream out MWs?

Barge is looking just as unappealing even with the buff, unless you really want that +1 to hit buff over a wider area.

 skoffs wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
I plan to run him as a CC threat on his own, surrounded by 6 wraiths with pistols. It's very mobile, quite survivable and has formidable punch against most non-horde targets.

If you don't mind me asking, why not use a Destroyer Lord for this instead?

I don't know if you'd need Wraiths to accompany a Destroyer Lord.
The old Wraith Wing build is dead, now that D.Lords only convey buffs to other Destroyers.
A Destroyer Lord accompanied by screening Scarabs would be a more cost effective way to deliver a Warscythe to their front lines quickly.

Well, the Wraiths would probably last a bit longer and would hopefully be more effective in combat.

In any case, would scarabs also be a better escort for a CCB?

 vipoid wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
I plan to run him as a CC threat on his own, surrounded by 6 wraiths with pistols. It's very mobile, quite survivable and has formidable punch against most non-horde targets.

If you don't mind me asking, why not use a Destroyer Lord for this instead?

I just posted a list in the army builder page that is entirely necron CC, has both a D/lord screened by scarabs (same M stat) and a CCB screened by wraiths (same M stat), as well as some fun tricks with kutlakh, Anrakyr, scytheguard and flayed ones.

In response to your question, I'm really torn as to which is actually better. The CCB has more wounds and QS (which probably won't actually help that much in CC, unless fighting knights ) while the d/lord has an invuln and phlactery.

The d/lord has an extra attack and rerolls 1's, but the CCB has a shooting attack and hits on 2's for both that and CC.

I paired wraiths with a CCB because he won't slow them down so the screen will be effective the whole game, same goes with d/lord and scarabs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I agree though, even with his buff he's underwhelming, and a d/lord screened by scarabs is a lot cheaper and efficient way of getting a scythe to the front lines.

Just wanted to try him out is all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But just realised we have a second hard counter to knight lists (besides the pylon), run 2-3 CCB's screen them with wraiths, and watch as the knights damage bounce off the QS for eternity while the warscythes slowly whittle them down into being pointless.

Man. I really want Praetorians to either get a <DYNASTY> keyword, or a drop in points. As of now, I'm having a really hard time justifying them over other units. I have 10 Praets that I really want to field... but man it is quite the internal dilemma.

I mean, a squad of 10 with RoC is 350 points... I mean I can take two squads of 10 Immortals for 170 each (340pts), or a squad of 9 base Gauss Tomb Blades for 378 points (42 each), or 6 Canoptek Wraiths w/ Particle Casters for 252 points (42 each). It's just hard.

Maybe if Praetorians drop 5 base points per model, meaning you'd get 10 for 300 points, it would be an easier choice. I basically compare them to Immortals. Either 10 Praets, or 20 Immortals.

Same amount of overall wounds

More chances on reanimate with Immortals, but a single reanimate for Praets brings more wounds

More shots from Immortals

Stronger shots from Praets

Much stronger melee from Praets

Unable to buff Praets, while MWBD greatly benefits tesla Immortals

Faster movement on Praets

Greater firing range on Immortals

Overall... right now I just really think the 20 Immortals brings more to the table. 20 Tesla Immortals bring 40 S6 AP0 shots, which can proc for 3 additional hits per shot. 20 gauss Immortals offer 20 shots at 24", but 40 at 12" (same distance as Praets). Difference is that Immortals offer AP-2 while Praets are AP-3. I'd take the extra 30 shots over one higher AP. So basically the Praets only shining moment is in Melee range where their S5 AP-3 comes into play. The trouble is getting a unit of 10 within that range so they become effective, however at that point we'd have to compare them to Wraiths. On top of all this, we have to take into consideration that Praetorians can't be buffed aside from Szeras (barely) and Anrakyr. It just breaks my little Necron heart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blueguy203 wrote:
Hey All

Quick question on the TA, i notice that people have been rating the point value at 240 (+20 for the gauss cannon) but in the rules it states that it has two gauss cannon so should the value of the TA be 260?

Well, as per the Forgeworld Index, the Tesseract Arc is a base 220 points (no wargear). It's rules state it is equipped with a singularity chamber and two tesla cannons (which may be replaced with two gauss cannons). Thus we refer to the wargear and see that the chamber is 0 points, and each gauss cannon is 20 points.

Thus, 220 + (20 x 2) = 260 points.

So,
CCB + Wraiths
vs
D.Lord + Scarabs

Basically premium vs budget CC HQ.
...
Thing is, neither pairing is all that amazing.
The HQ don't do anything for the screening units. The Canopteks are literally there just to get the HQ into combat at full strength, hopefully providing some assistance in the fight as well.
It's just... okay.

 SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote:
Man. I really want Praetorians to either get a <DYNASTY> keyword, or a drop in points. As of now, I'm having a really hard time justifying them over other units. I have 10 Praets that I really want to field... but man it is quite the internal dilemma.

I mean, a squad of 10 with RoC is 350 points... I mean I can take two squads of 10 Immortals for 170 each (340pts), or a squad of 9 base Gauss Tomb Blades for 378 points (42 each), or 6 Canoptek Wraiths w/ Particle Casters for 252 points (42 each). It's just hard.

Maybe if Praetorians drop 5 base points per model, meaning you'd get 10 for 300 points, it would be an easier choice. I basically compare them to Immortals. Either 10 Praets, or 20 Immortals.

Same amount of overall wounds

More chances on reanimate with Immortals, but a single reanimate for Praets brings more wounds

More shots from Immortals

Stronger shots from Praets

Much stronger melee from Praets

Unable to buff Praets, while MWBD greatly benefits tesla Immortals

Faster movement on Praets

Greater firing range on Immortals

Overall... right now I just really think the 20 Immortals brings more to the table. 20 Tesla Immortals bring 40 S6 AP0 shots, which can proc for 3 additional hits per shot. 20 gauss Immortals offer 20 shots at 24", but 40 at 12" (same distance as Praets). Difference is that Immortals offer AP-2 while Praets are AP-3. I'd take the extra 30 shots over one higher AP. So basically the Praets only shining moment is in Melee range where their S5 AP-3 comes into play. The trouble is getting a unit of 10 within that range so they become effective, however at that point we'd have to compare them to Wraiths. On top of all this, we have to take into consideration that Praetorians can't be buffed aside from Szeras (barely) and Anrakyr. It just breaks my little Necron heart.

I really like Praetorians too, I always feel 5 of them with the Stalker, just for fluff reasons.

I also think that they are going to get a good treatment in the codex or in a new book, if the Silent King appears.

 SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote:


Well, as per the Forgeworld Index, the Tesseract Arc is a base 220 points (no wargear). It's rules state it is equipped with a singularity chamber and two tesla cannons (which may be replaced with two gauss cannons). Thus we refer to the wargear and see that the chamber is 0 points, and each gauss cannon is 20 points.

Thus, 220 + (20 x 2) = 260 points.

Ahh, it would help if i read the points were for Tesla cannon and not gauss. thanks for the clear up.

 Klowny wrote:

But just realised we have a second hard counter to knight lists (besides the pylon), run 2-3 CCB's screen them with wraiths, and watch as the knights damage bounce off the QS for eternity while the warscythes slowly whittle them down into being pointless.

Except not really. If a Knight punches a vehicle with QS in melee, he's going to use the feet which only deal d3 damage, so at best you only save on a 1-2. The Gatling cannon only deals 2 damage, and the Battle Cannon is only d3 as well. So QS really isn't a hard counter, a Knight will crush through a CCB if it can shoot it or charge it.

Blueguy203 wrote:

 SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote:


Well, as per the Forgeworld Index, the Tesseract Arc is a base 220 points (no wargear). It's rules state it is equipped with a singularity chamber and two tesla cannons (which may be replaced with two gauss cannons). Thus we refer to the wargear and see that the chamber is 0 points, and each gauss cannon is 20 points.

Thus, 220 + (20 x 2) = 260 points.

Ahh, it would help if i read the points were for Tesla cannon and not gauss. thanks for the clear up.

Well just keep in mind that even if it were to use Tesla Cannons, you'd still have to add 13 points for each Tesla Cannon (26 total) on top of the 220 base points. The 220 points includes the base model without any wargear or weapons. So either the TA is going to cost 246 points if equipped with Tesla Cannons (220+13+13), 260 points if equipped with Gauss Cannons (220+20+20), or 240 points if equipped with Particle Beamers (220+10+10).

 skoffs wrote:
So,
CCB + Wraiths
vs
D.Lord + Scarabs

Basically premium vs budget CC HQ.

I still don't understand why you'd use Scarabs for one and Wraiths for the other.

 vipoid wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
So,
CCB + Wraiths
vs
D.Lord + Scarabs

Basically premium vs budget CC HQ.

I still don't understand why you'd use Scarabs for one and Wraiths for the other.

Basically just same movement.

 skoffs wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
So,
CCB + Wraiths
vs
D.Lord + Scarabs

Basically premium vs budget CC HQ.

I still don't understand why you'd use Scarabs for one and Wraiths for the other.

Basically just same movement.

Ah. I think I'd still run the D. Lord with Wraiths and just have them move at his speed.

Also if you're going to talk about "Canoptek Deathstars", the C'tan are still valid options. For 50 points more than the CCB, you get the same wounds, but a 4++, higher toughness, MWs, in the case of Nightbringer, a good shooting attack, and better melee weapons.

Requizen wrote:
Also if you're going to talk about "Canoptek Deathstars", the C'tan are still valid options. For 50 points more than the CCB, you get the same wounds, but a 4++, higher toughness, MWs, in the case of Nightbringer, a good shooting attack, and better melee weapons.

Slower, though...

 skoffs wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Also if you're going to talk about "Canoptek Deathstars", the C'tan are still valid options. For 50 points more than the CCB, you get the same wounds, but a 4++, higher toughness, MWs, in the case of Nightbringer, a good shooting attack, and better melee weapons.

Slower, though...

2" isn't huge when they can still run and do powers and shoot.

Requizen wrote:

 Klowny wrote:

But just realised we have a second hard counter to knight lists (besides the pylon), run 2-3 CCB's screen them with wraiths, and watch as the knights damage bounce off the QS for eternity while the warscythes slowly whittle them down into being pointless.

Except not really. If a Knight punches a vehicle with QS in melee, he's going to use the feet which only deal d3 damage, so at best you only save on a 1-2. The Gatling cannon only deals 2 damage, and the Battle Cannon is only d3 as well. So QS really isn't a hard counter, a Knight will crush through a CCB if it can shoot it or charge it.

Oh yeah, forgot the feet, haven't actually looked at them this properly. Jumped the gun on that one.

Requizen wrote:Also if you're going to talk about "Canoptek Deathstars", the C'tan are still valid options. For 50 points more than the CCB, you get the same wounds, but a 4++, higher toughness, MWs, in the case of Nightbringer, a good shooting attack, and better melee weapons.

Yeah, the night bringer is quite a tempting option, was just trying to make the HQ's work. I'm not really feeling our CC is that great this edition, feels a bit worse than last edition. I agree that the mightbringer flanked by scarabs is the cheapest and most effective 'canoptek deathstar'

My only problem with bringing the NightBringer is its inability to be effective against vehicles. Which a smart player might bring in a transport and hold the c'tan up while the rest of the troops go to work.

Requizen wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Also if you're going to talk about "Canoptek Deathstars", the C'tan are still valid options. For 50 points more than the CCB, you get the same wounds, but a 4++, higher toughness, MWs, in the case of Nightbringer, a good shooting attack, and better melee weapons.

Slower, though...

2" isn't huge when they can still run and do powers and shoot.

...
CCB M 12"
N.B. M 8"

Blueguy203 wrote:
My only problem with bringing the NightBringer is its inability to be effective against vehicles. Which a smart player might bring in a transport and hold the c'tan up while the rest of the troops go to work.

Melee is till S7 against vehicles, which is the same as Warscythe, and higher damage against those vehicles. And you can't hold up the C'tan, since he'll be bubble wrapped and has Fly, so he can fall back and shoot. Plus his powers don't care if he's in melee.

 skoffs wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Also if you're going to talk about "Canoptek Deathstars", the C'tan are still valid options. For 50 points more than the CCB, you get the same wounds, but a 4++, higher toughness, MWs, in the case of Nightbringer, a good shooting attack, and better melee weapons.

Slower, though...

2" isn't huge when they can still run and do powers and shoot.

...
CCB M 12"
N.B. M 8"

Oops yeah. I was comparing the speed of the C'tan to the DLord, who is only 10".

Blueguy203 wrote:
My only problem with bringing the NightBringer is its inability to be effective against vehicles. Which a smart player might bring in a transport and hold the c'tan up while the rest of the troops go to work.

But we have other things in our army that is effective against vehicles. Right tool for the right job and all that

The Powers of the C'tan don't count as shooting attacks, right?
(they don't roll to hit or wound or anything like that, they're just abilities that happen in the shooting phase)
So there's nothing stopping you from advancing and then using them in the shooting phase, yes?

 skoffs wrote:
The Powers of the C'tan don't count as shooting attacks, right?
(they don't roll to hit or wound or anything like that, they're just abilities that happen in the shooting phase)
So there's nothing stopping you from advancing and then using them in the shooting phase, yes?

Yep. AMM and TA are both extremely good powers that you can reach out and use with their range and his speed. While I think they're a bit overcosted, both types of C'tan are quite good in the long run. Lists containing both are fun and actually not terrible.

 skoffs wrote:
The Powers of the C'tan don't count as shooting attacks, right?
(they don't roll to hit or wound or anything like that, they're just abilities that happen in the shooting phase)
So there's nothing stopping you from advancing and then using them in the shooting phase, yes?

Yeah Only the nightbringers gaze is a shooting attack, the powers as you said are abilities that happen in the shooting phase, so can't see anything stopping them being used after advancing

Well, if you wanted to go really crazy, you could take a T.C'tan with the Deceiver and Nightbringer, Grand Illusion them all up and kamikaze them into the enemy back field.

 skoffs wrote:
Well, if you wanted to go really crazy, you could take a T.C'tan with the Deceiver and Nightbringer, Grand Illusion them all up and kamikaze them into the enemy back field.

And when they die cross your fingers for mortal wound explosions

Dew wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Well, if you wanted to go really crazy, you could take a T.C'tan with the Deceiver and Nightbringer, Grand Illusion them all up and kamikaze them into the enemy back field.

And when they die cross your fingers for mortal wound explosions

... hence "kamikaze"

Hello all

So i decided to write up a list that i think can be really competitive and would like get your opinion on it. Its meant to be very high in AP damage.

Cheers

Cryptek will be imo useless as You have small units of infantry. Killing 5 Immortals in one turn won't be difficult so no Reanimation Protocols for them.