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2017/08/31 19:06:34
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Hoodwink wrote: "...which must be Warriors or characters" well would you look at that.
Still not good since a Warrior unit is 10 man minimum and you'd only be using it for 1 or 2 characters :(
There is the potent but pricey Grand Illusion play you can pull, in which you'd forward deploy the ark with Nemesor and HQs of choice and then pull up Obyron and lychguard. Possibly seasoned with rapid fire warriors if you roll high enough for GI
2017/08/31 19:42:29
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Our boards aren't super big so I think I can set up so my stalker can get into range first turn, but that build cant afford the TP matrix for the two pylons and the gauss pylon (not without downgrading to a worse weapon at which point im not as confident about being in range turn 1 for the reroll 1's against targets...). So that means i'd have to set up my Gauss pylon turn 1 which means if im landing my Sentries to be in 6" of GP for that invul save then I dont necessarily have the gaurantee of the reroll on damage due to 18" range....
Hmm, just noticed I forgot to include the 10 points on the GP on the second list cause of the third Sentry... Hmmm, do I downgrade one of the weapons and buy the TP matrix for perfect positioning but at slightly worse wound potential... *rubs chin*
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/31 19:52:07
I was almost tempted to start buying orks and modeling/painting them with a french theme.
If only so I could begin the pardonné waghh.
2017/09/01 00:02:32
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Well, everyone else is getting new stuff. Don't want to start wishlisting in the tactics thread, but maybe we'll get a new infantry transport?
For the time being, yeah, Ghost Ark + Zahndrekh + Obyron + Deceiver is the only "good" way to get Lychguard into combat.
Unless they get drastic point reductions this December, way too expensive to be practical.
2017/09/01 02:44:55
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
I miss the old 4th edition Deceiver Grand Illusion ability - so much fun.
6000 pts
2000 pts
2500 pts
3000 pts
"We're on an express elevator to hell - goin' down!"
"Depends on the service being refused. It should be fine to refuse to make a porn star a dildo shaped cake that they wanted to use in a wedding themed porn..."
2017/09/01 02:45:33
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Ehhh I don't think the ghost ark is necessary, sure it reduces the charge but at the end of the day the combo is already lubriciously expensive.
GK get personal teleporter's on all units, why cant the most advanced technological race get a unit upgrade for x points. THAT would make the necrons much more viable, if we had army wide precision DS.
12,000
2017/09/01 03:26:48
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
The thing I mostly don't get is our IS. Somehow wraiths get it to work on a 3++,but our characters are fumbling around with a 4++ which makes no sense.
The same for the "dispersion" shield. It used to have an awesome fluffy bounce back rule which made it logical why it wasn't a 3++. After that we had the same technology as the lesser races with a 3++ shield with no bouncy, and now the lesser races have even surpassed us since we have a 4++ again without anything special...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/01 04:35:30
- Power corrupts, Absolute power.... is a whole lot of fun...-
0009/09/01 05:02:13
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
The joys of playing an unloved faction in the universe I suppose. We have been around a while so we have a range of models which isn't too bad, hopefully we get new ones come the release of the codex.
12,000
2017/09/01 08:58:24
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Lads, what are we going to do. All I want from GW is for them to give us a Codex that is not OP or UP but balanced and gives all of our units a reason to be played cause atm we are easily the worst/hardest army to play/master in 8th edition.
Also, from my point of view, in 7th everyone was playing the Decurion and now in 8th people are still doing the same thing by playing with only a few selected models
For example;
Spoiler:
1. I don't remember seeing anyone ever talk about Trazyn or even having him on a list since 8th has dropped.
2. All our named HQs have crazy abilities but we pay a fortune to use them which handicaps our lists as we constantly have to decide in either quality or quantity and it's really hard to find a balance.
3. Our strongest Vehicle(s) that are not FW is the DDA or Triarch Stalker and I think everyone has become to realise that the DDA is basically a one trick pony. You either do the damage you want or it does none at all. We also heavily rely on FW models because our Index models are terrible meaning half the time we can't even play our army because some shops deny the use of FW meaning were left with mediocre vehicles that are somewhat good thanks to QS.
4. While RP is now more fluffy and accurate it doesn't work well on the table top. Nearly everyone knows how to take care of RP now meaning it's easier for our opponents to counter what we have and it's harder for us to survive the long game when we are supposed to be the best long game army due to our supposed resilience.
5. When we talk about our CC options it literally all goes like this ; Lychguard -> Praetorians -> Flayed Ones -> Scarabs. So were basically trading our real CC units for meat shields that are only ok in CC but do well due to numbers. No one plays Wraiths anymore so no point bringing them up.
6. We have no way of denying pysk powers bar paying anywhere between 80-180 points to bring models that can deny 1 pysk power for an extra 5pts. So we basically have to pay extra points just to stop a stupid pysk power or bring Scarab Spam to soak up some of the pysk BS. Tbh tho, i wouldn't mind the pysk phase if we had something to do during it but we basically sit there and let our opponents dick on us and tell us it's "fun" and that our RP abilities make up for our lack of Pysk powers.
7. The way our transportation works is literally the worst In all of 40k. I know some armies can't take transports or anything along those lines but I rather have no way of transportation then to only have 1-3 models that allow us to transport certain units making it really hard to get synergy. Like, why does the GA only transport Warriors? There has to be another Ark of some sort that can transport units likes Lychguard up the Field. Oh, and don't get me started on the Tomb World bs that affects the Mono and Night scythe.
8. We have no optional equipment bar a few melee and shooting weapons. Our war gear for our HQs is terrible.
9. Watching a unit with several wounds and RP getting wiped out is literally worse then stubbing your baby toe into something. I honestly want Destroyers to lose RPtbh. At least then they wouldn't be seen as a threat as no one would worry about them coming back (not like they do anyway, there always the 1st unit my opponents focuses their fire on).
10. Interms of points per model and points per unit we are literally paying gold to field a mediorc army that finds it's hard to survive against the majority of 40K.
I don't mean to rant or anything but it literally feels like GW is punishing us for how good they made Necros in 7th and because of how much gak they got from people who bitched about Necrons in 7th. It is like they are afraid to give us anything in case other players start bitching and moaning again. I suppose it is easier to deny an army it true power rather then list to people bitch about people playing OP plastic/resin/finecast toys.
I know this isn't the thread for gak posting and I apologise Skoffs for it but this is literally the best place the find Necron players and I can't be the only one out of us that feels the way I am feeling.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we were the last to get a Codex.
I think you are right, and I think it's been pretty plain to most for a while now.
Problem number 2 was that even in 7th we weren't even a competitive army (rarely featured in top 10, which was all eldar anyway). Its just that for the average player it was an easy codex to play against other average players, just march up, survive, and shoot. This caused a negative image on necrons that was based to a large degree in general players incompetence, not codex strength, hurting us now in 8th even more as its surely taken into account when GW balances the indeces and codeces (can't have unhappy customers).
2017/09/01 10:09:24
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
torblind wrote: I think you are right, and I think it's been pretty plain to most for a while now.
Problem number 2 was that even in 7th we weren't even a competitive army (rarely featured in top 10, which was all eldar anyway). Its just that for the average player it was an easy codex to play against other average players, just march up, survive, and shoot. This caused a negative image on necrons that was based to a large degree in general players incompetence, not codex strength, hurting us now in 8th even more as its surely taken into account when GW balances the indeces and codeces (can't have unhappy customers).
In my local meta , so about 30 people who play averagly every 2 weeks, I am the only Necron person in the group (bar my friend but he just started the game and is using my models) and nearly all the veterans have a problem with me when I play them. There faces light up like fire when they see my RP units go to 1-2 models but once I roll my RP and get a few back they just spit hot gak at me and deem that RP breaks necrons and makes them the hardest army to play against. However, I literally won like 3 out of 9 games vs them and it's always the Vets that bitch to me while newer players are like "omg, that's so cool. So it's basically like a save that can't be denied?"
2 guyd won't play me because I have Necrons, they won't even look at my army or my games. It's ridiculously how up tight people get over us playing with toys that have a cool abilities that works in the wrong phase (imagine how strong RP would be if we could RP on our turn and opponents turns?).
I agree with your comments on 7th, I still found Necrosn to be an "okay" army to play even if using a Decurion with the 4+ re-rolling 1s for RP. Fair enough it could be a bit much at times but it's our armies special rule and the hate people gave it was really unnecessary. Then again tho, we were the 1st army to get a Codex in 7th and because of us every army had a Decurion because everyone was bitching so much. So, in a way it is GW fault that 7th was so broken because everyone wanted there army to be more broken then the Necrons.
In terms of 8th editin I have actually been looking at other armies to play because of how much gak I get for playing them. Even if it's a fun list they think it's OP and not fun to play against and it just ruins my mood when I don't even get a hand shake or GG after the game. Even if I lose I still show sportsman ship but a lot of people don't give it back to me.
Maybe my "hate" is stirred up by my local meta but I can imagine a lot of people are dealing with this as well.
Also, from my point of view, in 7th everyone was playing the Decurion and now in 8th people are still doing the same thing by playing with only a few selected models
I'd actually say that things are far worse now than in 7th. The Decurion guaranteed that you'd be using a specific core of units, however, it also gave you opportunities to use one or more groups of other units as well (you could go Destroyer Wing, you could have Wraiths, Spiders and Scarabs, you could have Praetorians and a Stalker etc.). I'd say that there was actually more encouragement to use different units in 7th than there is now.
(To be clear, I think Necrons were very much overpowered in 7th - I just don't think unit diversity was an issue.)
1. I don't remember seeing anyone ever talk about Trazyn or even having him on a list since 8th has dropped.
Yep. That's because GW doesn't learn and keep making the same three mistakes that cripple him:
1) He needs to be worth taking in the first place. As it is, he costs more than a regular Overlord yet all he gets for that is a worse weapon. He needs to at least be on par with a standard Overlord in terms of buffs and damage (or else have other tricks to make up the difference).
2) Where are his tricks? He is supposed to have the greatest collection of artefacts in the universe, yet all he brings with him is a weapon that would embarrass a guardsman. Where are his artefacts? Where is his Loki-esque trickery?
3) When he was introduced in 5th, you could get characters for about 25pts. Now those same characters cost 4-5 times that. If Trazyn is going to replace those then he needs to get something really spectacular out of it. As it is, he's barely better (and might even be worse) than the characters he body-hops into. Perhaps he shouldn't be limited to characters - if he could body-hop into Lychguard and Praetorians then that would give him something of an edge.
2. All our named HQs have crazy abilities but we pay a fortune to use them which handicaps our lists as we constantly have to decide in either quality or quantity and it's really hard to find a balance.
I think the issue is that the aforementioned abilities are 'crazy' as opposed to 'useful'. They also tend to be rather niche - like Stormlord's Flayed One buff, which isn't impressive to begin with and also doesn't gel with anything else he does.
3. Our strongest Vehicle(s) that are not FW is the DDA or Triarch Stalker and I think everyone has become to realise that the DDA is basically a one trick pony. You either do the damage you want or it does none at all. We also heavily rely on FW models because our Index models are terrible meaning half the time we can't even play our army because some shops deny the use of FW meaning were left with mediocre vehicles that are somewhat good thanks to QS.
I'd also add that we shouldn't have to use FW models in the first place.
4. While RP is now more fluffy and accurate it doesn't work well on the table top. Nearly everyone knows how to take care of RP now meaning it's easier for our opponents to counter what we have and it's harder for us to survive the long game when we are supposed to be the best long game army due to our supposed resilience.
It also forces our already-expensive army to max out on squad-sizes, whereas an MSU approach would have helped us greatly, I think.
Also, I think our characters really should have got RPs in some form.
5. When we talk about our CC options it literally all goes like this ; Lychguard -> Praetorians -> Flayed Ones -> Scarabs. So were basically trading our real CC units for meat shields that are only ok in CC but do well due to numbers. No one plays Wraiths anymore so no point bringing them up.
Also, the Destroyer Lord should be out melee-beast HQ, yet he only has WS3+.
6. We have no way of denying pysk powers bar paying anywhere between 80-180 points to bring models that can deny 1 pysk power for an extra 5pts. So we basically have to pay extra points just to stop a stupid pysk power or bring Scarab Spam to soak up some of the pysk BS. Tbh tho, i wouldn't mind the pysk phase if we had something to do during it but we basically sit there and let our opponents dick on us and tell us it's "fun" and that our RP abilities make up for our lack of Pysk powers.
This seems like exactly the sort of thing C'tan should be doing. Probably Crypteks as well.
7. The way our transportation works is literally the worst In all of 40k. I know some armies can't take transports or anything along those lines but I rather have no way of transportation then to only have 1-3 models that allow us to transport certain units making it really hard to get synergy. Like, why does the GA only transport Warriors? There has to be another Ark of some sort that can transport units likes Lychguard up the Field. Oh, and don't get me started on the Tomb World bs that affects the Mono and Night scythe.
Remember when the Night Scythe deployment was an advantage instead of a crippling disadvantage?
8. We have no optional equipment bar a few melee and shooting weapons. Our war gear for our HQs is terrible.
Our HQ wargear is indeed abysmal. Especially given that it was supposed to be the main place where our army had actual options and customisation.
I think the most annoying part though is that even the gear we do get is awful. The Warscythe is little better than a bread-knife, the Staff of Light is overpriced and just meh in general and then we have a choice of two different poor-man's weapons. The Resurrection Orb is one-use-only, because of course it bloody is. And the Phylactery can't be taken if you take a Resurrection Orb for no discernible reason.
Also, anyone remember when we had different flavours of Crypteks that did interesting things? As opposed to having ones that just ape the old Resurrection Orbs (back when they were good).
9. Watching a unit with several wounds and RP getting wiped out is literally worse then stubbing your baby toe into something. I honestly want Destroyers to lose RPtbh. At least then they wouldn't be seen as a threat as no one would worry about them coming back (not like they do anyway, there always the 1st unit my opponents focuses their fire on).
I don't want to see Destroyers lose RPs. What I want is for them to not pay stupid points for it.
On both Destroyers and Wraiths, GW has vastly overestimated how survivable they'll be with 3 wounds, in an edition chock-full of multi-wound weapons. Not only that, but the increased price of Destroyers (with basically no change to their guns) means that their firepower is pitiful, relative to their cost. Destroyers really need to be about 2/3 of what they currently cost. Wraiths need more bite - e.g. getting Rending back or even inflicting Mortal Wounds on to-wound rolls of 6.
Something I was thinking recently was this: what if the Destroyer Lord just had a general 'reroll 1s to-wound' aura? i.e. it would affect all units (not just Destroyers) and would affect both melee and shooting (like the Auras in other armies).
Suddenly, he'd be able to use his speed to accompany Praetorians or Wraiths and actually give them a decent buff in the process.
(I know Necrons need far more than this, but it's something that bugs me.)
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/09/01 11:24:26
Subject: Re: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
I'd actually say that things are far worse now than in 7th. The Decurion guaranteed that you'd be using a specific core of units, however, it also gave you opportunities to use one or more groups of other units as well (you could go Destroyer Wing, you could have Wraiths, Spiders and Scarabs, you could have Praetorians and a Stalker etc.). I'd say that there was actually more encouragement to use different units in 7th than there is now.
I agree 100%, in the Dec you could have Rece Legion, Royal Court, Destroyer Cult, Canoptek Harvest and other sub-formations. Now everyone literally brings 3-4 DDA,1-2 Stalkers, basic Overlord, Warriors, Immortals and Scarabs, Gauss Pylon, Tesseract Ark and the Tomb Sentinel Everything else is basically taken in dips and dabs. Our army selection has gotten worse because nothing is actually worth taking imo we are just taking the best of what we can get based on paper.
vipoid wrote: Yep. That's because GW doesn't learn and keep making the same three mistakes that cripple him (...)
it is like I said above, GW are to afraid to give us anything good in case it gives them hate like before. Trazyn is suppose to have all the goodies, he even saved Cawl and basically gave the Imperium loads of other gak in 1 book yet we get him all he does is kill other nom-named HQs so that he can stick around for longer. He also is Nihilikh instead of Sautekh so he also loses the chance of being buffed by some of our other HQs like Imotekh. His surrogate host is only worth will on Lord's with H Sword because there is no way I'd lose a Cryptek 4+ save just to leave Trazyn survive for a few turns longer. Also, most of our HQs have fuqqing names so his SH ability if basically useless.
I think the issue is that the aforementioned abilities are 'crazy' as opposed to 'useful'. They also tend to be rather niche - like Stormlord's Flayed One buff, which isn't impressive to begin with and also doesn't gel with anything else he does.
A lot of our HQ buffs are situational as well. E.g. Imotekh buffs Flayed-Ones which will end up costing you 700-800+ pts, Anrakyr mind over machine means he needs to be close to a vehicle to use it and if that is the case he will be gone the next turn. Szeras only buffs Warriors or Immortals, D Lord only helps Destroyers and H Destroyers (as expected) etc. Our HQ buffs are crazy because it is literally crazy how much we have to pay to make them useful.
vipoid wrote: I'd also add that we shouldn't have to use FW models in the first place.
Agreed, I never looked at FW in 7th or 6th, I always thought we had okay Vehicles or Abilities but ever since 8th has dropped I ended up buying a Tomb Sentinel and 2 TA in fear that there always going to be needed and it sickens me that I had to blow out €140 just to make my army a small bit better. Seriously GW how did our Necrons Vehicles pass your play testing?
vipoid wrote: It also forces our already-expensive army to max out on squad-sizes, whereas an MSU approach would have helped us greatly, I think.
I don't even bother with max squads unless it's Tesla Immortals. If I can get warriors I just spend the points on Scarabs instead. Better wounds, attacks and movement. It annoys me that I sometimes field 27-36 Scarabs but I just think warriors are not worth the points even in max squads.
If our HQs got RP it would have to be a different rule because once a whole unit is gone RP doesn't activate so 1 model units wouldn't even benefit from RP. They would need a different ruling that works like RP but different wording. Maybe call it "Eternal Will" and on a 4+ the HQ comes back with D6 wounds? Does that seem fair?
vipoid wrote: Also, the Destroyer Lord should be out melee-beast HQ, yet he only has WS3+.
Tbh, the Deceiver is probably the best CC unit we have because he always does 3 damage per wound where's a D lords scythe can only do 2 and the Nightbringer does D6 so you have a 50% of doing the same damage or less then the Deceiver if using the Nightbringer.
vipoid wrote: This seems like exactly the sort of thing C'tan should be doing. Probably Crypteks as well.
it surprises me that they haven't given us a C'tan for denyingvpyskers. If there was a C'tan that could deny 3-5 powers and if it added a -1 to their pysk role if within X inches that would be amazing. But as I said before GW are to afraid to give us anything good.
vipoid wrote: Remember when the Night Scythe deployment was an advantage instead of a crippling disadvantage?
Yes, I remember when my opponents would go hot headed and roar, now they just laugh it off and say "wow, that thing is not worth it's points". I made the mistake of telling them about the Tomb World ruling and I am never bringing another Tomb World deployment until it gets fixed.
vipoid wrote: Our HQ wargear is indeed abysmal. Especially given that it was supposed to be the main place where our army had actual options and customisation.(...)
GW probably did this on purpose. I can imagine when we get our Codex that we will have a lot of add-ons to work with. But at the same time, it is upsetting that out Index options are worse then any other wargear for other armies.
vipoid wrote: I don't want to see Destroyers lose RPs. What I want is for them to not pay stupid points for it (...)
the reason I want them to lose RP is because they are always targeted 1st because if the whole unit is gone then they can't come back and that is 100% worth our opponents time. Also, when we buy our models we actually pay for RP as well so imagine 1 Destroyer is actually 2 because in terms of GW logic every unit with RP should use RP and never get downed to the point of exile. I would honestly rather field 6 H Destroyers with no RP then 3 with RP just because it will be harder for my opponent to down 2 units and he will also have to deal with 2 units instead of one for the price of 1 RP unit. Obviously I would love them to keep RP but at the moment it makes them the most shot at model in the Necron Army.
vipoid wrote: Something I was thinking recently was this: what if the Destroyer Lord just had a general 'reroll 1s to-wound' aura?
. I actually had this conversation with Klowny (I think) about 10-20 pages ago and I think we both agreed that the buff should stay with the Destroyers because he is the Destroyer Lord and if his aura was to buff Wraiths, Lychguard, Praetorians etc imagine how many people would bitch to GW about that being a broken deathstar and that Necrons are OP. Now, I personally wish that was the case but I can see where that would start to get a bit messy. Especially if he was with 3 units of 6 Wraiths that can move through cover and other models without hesitation. Every HQ under 10 wounds would be nothing but bits of broken plastic after 18 Wraiths attacking with re-rolling 1s to hit and 1s to wound
I don't even bother with max squads unless it's Tesla Immortals. If I can get warriors I just spend the points on Scarabs instead. Better wounds, attacks and movement. It annoys me that I sometimes field 27-36 Scarabs but I just think warriors are not worth the points even in max squads.
Yeah, in spite of all the threads saying that Warriors are the most OP troop choice in the game, I don't find them remotely useful.
- I don't like how many points I have to spend on a full squad.
- I don't like that I'm then encouraged to throw more points away on a Cryptek or such.
- I don't like how unwieldy these warrior-blocks are.
- I don't like how their firepower never seems to inflict meaningful damage to anything.
Also, in spite of what everyone says, my opponents have no issues killing my warrior blobs.
If our HQs got RP it would have to be a different rule because once a whole unit is gone RP doesn't activate so 1 model units wouldn't even benefit from RP. They would need a different ruling that works like RP but different wording. Maybe call it "Eternal Will" and on a 4+ the HQ comes back with D6 wounds? Does that seem fair?
Perhaps it should be d3 wounds? (Since some of our HQs don't even have 6 wounds ).
Other possibilities would be making it a 6+ (but you get to roll every turn), or making it a 5+ (but you can only roll if a friendly Necron unit is within 3" of where the HQ died).
Tbh, the Deceiver is probably the best CC unit we have because he always does 3 damage per wound where's a D lords scythe can only do 2 and the Nightbringer does D6 so you have a 50% of doing the same damage or less then the Deceiver if using the Nightbringer.
I did say that the Destroyer Lord was supposed to be our melee-beast HQ. I know the C'tan are better, but they're not HQs.
it surprises me that they haven't given us a C'tan for denyingvpyskers. If there was a C'tan that could deny 3-5 powers and if it added a -1 to their pysk role if within X inches that would be amazing. But as I said before GW are to afraid to give us anything good.
Honestly, it seems like a standard thing that all C'tan should do.
I mean, they could just make it a C'tan Power (there's no reason why those all have to be offensive).
GW probably did this on purpose. I can imagine when we get our Codex that we will have a lot of add-ons to work with. But at the same time, it is upsetting that out Index options are worse then any other wargear for other armies.
I'm doubtful. Other codices don't appear to have gained any wargeat outside of artefacts, and I don't see why ours would be any different.
the reason I want them to lose RP is because they are always targeted 1st because if the whole unit is gone then they can't come back and that is 100% worth our opponents time. Also, when we buy our models we actually pay for RP as well so imagine 1 Destroyer is actually 2 because in terms of GW logic every unit with RP should use RP and never get downed to the point of exile. I would honestly rather field 6 H Destroyers with no RP then 3 with RP just because it will be harder for my opponent to down 2 units and he will also have to deal with 2 units instead of one for the price of 1 RP unit. Obviously I would love them to keep RP but at the moment it makes them the most shot at model in the Necron Army.
I get what you mean, but surely you could extend that to all Necrons? As it stands, we'd be far better off not having RP at all and getting significant discounts on all our models instead. And, at that point why are we even playing Necrons?
I'd much rather find a solution that keeps RPs in some form, rather than abandoning them entirely. They are supposed to be the army's core theme, after all (or were, anyway).
I actually had this conversation with Klowny (I think) about 10-20 pages ago and I think we both agreed that the buff should stay with the Destroyers because he is the Destroyer Lord
But so what? A Destroyer Lord is just the Necron equivalent of a mounted lord. If you put a Chaos Lord on a bike, his aura doesn't become limited to bikers and nothing else.
Odrankt wrote: and if his aura was to buff Wraiths, Lychguard, Praetorians etc imagine how many people would bitch to GW about that being a broken deathstar and that Necrons are OP.
People already bitch about Necrons being OP anyway. At least this way we'd have some half-decent rules to enjoy.
Odrankt wrote: Especially if he was with 3 units of 6 Wraiths that can move through cover and other models without hesitation.
The thing is though, normal infantry can move through terrain without hesitation. And anything with the fly special rule can move over terrain and models as well. It's hardly a unique feature.
What's more, given the current state of Wraiths, do you really think that letting them reroll 1s to wound will suddenly make them OP?
Odrankt wrote: Every HQ under 10 wounds would be nothing but bits of broken plastic after 18 Wraiths attacking with re-rolling 1s to hit and 1s to wound
Firstly, how are the Wraiths rerolling 1s to hit? The D. Lord's aura would only let them reroll 1s to-wound.
Second, how would these 18 Wraiths all get into melee with an HQ? They can move through models but they still have to physically fit in the space.
Thirdly, if you think this is a powerful tactic, what exactly is stopping you from using it now? If Wraiths can kill a HQ when rerolling 1s to wound, then they can kill a HQ without rerolling 1s to wound.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/01 11:57:14
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/09/01 12:17:20
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
I really wish there was a way for the people in charge of writing the codex to see the above few comments.
It outlines exactly what's wrong/what needs to be fixed with Necrons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (also, much obliged for the considerate spoilers, lads. May your Dynasties once again gleam as they did in aeons past)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/01 12:19:30
2017/09/01 13:03:42
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
I really wish there was a way for the people in charge of writing the codex to see the above few comments.
It outlines exactly what's wrong/what needs to be fixed with Necrons.
I actually personally wrote to the GW page with the complaint I made in my post. Obviously more civil but got my point across. I also emailed them as well and might print it up and send them as letters as well.
I was also thinking of making a video and uploading it on YouTube and other video services to get my frustration out into the public more. The whole reason Necrons got nurfed so badly is because every army in 40K complained till they listened and that is the result of our index. It basically got made to be nurfed so that people would shut up and stop annoying GW about our army.
So, it looks like we will have to do the same and as much traffic as DakkaDakka gets I doubt they even go through the forms cause if they did a whole lot of stuff would have been sorted in the FaQs by now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/01 13:29:51
Perhaps it should be d3 wounds? (Since some of our HQs don't even have 6 wounds ).
Other possibilities would be making it a 6+ (but you get to roll every turn), or making it a 5+ (but you can only roll if a friendly Necron unit is within 3" of where the HQ died).
But yeah, anything like that really.
Yeah I guess getting D3 wounds would be okay but it's just the chance of rolling 1-2 that make it scary and somewhat pointless. If I am paying points to make my HQ come back I will at least want it to have half of those wounds back.
I did say that the Destroyer Lord was supposed to be our melee-beast HQ. I know the C'tan are better, but they're not HQs.
Sorry, I thought you were saying he was our best CC unit in general. Didn't see the HQ part. Tbh, I actually quite like the CCB with the Scythe, pretty much the same CC power as the D Lord but can have a Tesla or Gauss Cannon. Won't be re-rolling 1s but it's naturally a 2+ WS and BS. I tried the D Lord once and I was not impressed so I'm leaving him in his tomb for the moment untill I want to awake him again. I used the CCB twice and it preformed pretty well. The QS rule does help it survive.
Honestly, it may seem like a standard thing to do
This is GW we are talking about. They aren't the fairest of companies when it comes to certain situations and I imagine they are somewhat bias to some armies (All Imperium, Eldar, Ynari, majority of Chaos) and don't feel the same for others (Necrons and Squats, and yes I did compare our army to an army that has been out of the game for a while). Also, they are all about selling their models, paints and story so if they brought out a C'tan that was labeled "anti-pysker" you would imagine about 50% of Necron players (me included) would buy that Day 1 and they would honestly rather have your money then you wanting them to change rules that might stop them from selling their products.
I'm doubtful. Other codices don't appear to have gained any wargear outside of artefacts, and I don't see why ours would be any different.
That is because most of those armies had all their ear gear already in the Index but got updated in the codex. Like T'au has a sick array of War gear for both HQs and other units, same with Tyranids, Orks, IG etc. We literally lost everything that gave us any flavor. If GW give us no upgrades then I'm putting all my crons back into their tomb world's till 9th edition comes out cause that would be utter BS.
I get what you mean, but surely you could extend that to all Necrons? As it stands, we'd be far better off not having RP at all and getting significant discounts on all our models instead. And, at that point why are we even playing Necrons?
I'd much rather find a solution that keeps RPs in some form, rather than abandoning them entirely. They are supposed to be the army's core theme, after all (or were, anyway).
Well no, see the problem with Destroyers is that they are 3 wounds a model and when you RP you get full wounds so even if 2 die and 1 survives and both comes back then you basically got 6 extra wounds via them coming back. That's the reason there always shot 1st because they know we get full wounds when we RP. Warriors and Immortals are 1 wound a piece so normal guns can take them out and if they RP there only 1 wound so no biggie but Destroyers are a bit tougher to deal with and take more fire power. So no matter what you do your opponent is always going to see them as a threat if they know the damage they can do.
They only RP units I use is Tesla Immortals and a unit of 6-9 Gauss Tomb Blades with a mixture of 3+ saves and 5++. I think those are the best units that RP can work on due to how effective both are. I actually don't rely on RP to much, I just think of it as an extra save I get to re-roll at the start of my turn.
given the current state of Wraiths, do you really think that letting them reroll 1s to wound will suddenly make them OP?
well 6 of them 18 attacks + 6 more for charging so 24 attacks might land you 10-14 wounds (depending on S vs T and your rolls) with re-rolling 1s would actually be pretty decent as a CC option. Even if it was against a unit of conscripts or any kind of horde army it would pretty much munch through them. Especially if you had 3 units of 6. Wouldn't make us OP but people would complain and I'm sick of people giving me gak for my playing Necrons because there naturally OP. According to my opponents and brother.
Firstly, how are the Wraiths rerolling 1s to hit? The D. Lord's aura would only let them reroll 1s to-wound.
Second, how would these 18 Wraiths all get into melee with an HQ? They can move through models but they still have to physically fit in the space.
Thirdly, if you think this is a powerful tactic, what exactly is stopping you from using it now? If Wraiths can kill a HQ when rerolling 1s to wound, then they can kill a HQ without rerolling 1s to wound.
1. I thought the D Lords United hatred allowed re-roll 1s to hit. Sorry for the confusion.
2. Well you don't have to target the HQ on its own. I was just giving an example. Honestly I would probably charge just 1 unit against the HQ and the other 2 at the units he is buffing. D Lord could charge the HQ if possible as well.
3. The problem with Wraiths is the same Problem as Destroyers. Once they are seen they are shot to death. Most people have a vendetta against Wraiths because of the Canoptek Harvest in 7th so when they get the chance to shoot them up they will always take it. well, in my experience anyway. Also, the 3+ invul in nice but they have no way of regaining wounds or coming back to life so if I was to use Wraiths I'd make sure I'd have a plan for them otherwise I just fill there spot with a TA or more Scarabs.
I want Wraiths to be good again. If they had living Metal I think they would be a small bit more beefy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/01 13:18:25
Yeah I guess getting D3 wounds would be okay but it's just the chance of rolling 1-2 that make it scary and somewhat pointless. If I am paying points to make my HQ come back I will at least want it to have half of those wounds back.
Well, I was presuming they'd still regenerate. I see your point though.
Sorry, I thought you were saying he was out best CC unit in general. Didn't see the HQ part. Tbh, I actually quite like the CCB with the Scythe, pretty much the same CC power as the D Lord but can have a Tesla or Gauss Cannon. Won't be re-rolling 1s but it's naturally a 2+ WS and BS. I tried the D Lord once and I was not impressed so I'm leaving him in his tomb for the moment untill I want to awake him again. I used the CCB twice and it preformed pretty well. The QS rule does help it survive.
I think the CCB is slightly worse than the D. Lord in combat (due to having 1 less attack), but obviously it can have a gun.
I think where I struggle with the CCB is that I've got nothing to accompany it that can take advantage of its MWBD buff, so I feel like I might as well just take a regular Overlord.
It would be nice if the CCB's MWBD would affect Praetorians.
it may seem like a standard thing to do but this is GW we are talking about. They aren't the fairest of companies when it comes to certain situations and I imagine they are somewhat bias to some armies (All Imperium, Eldar, Ynari, majority of Chaos) and don't feel the same for others (Necrons and Squats, and yes I did compare our army to an army that has been out of the game for a while). Also, they are all about selling their models, paints and story so if they brought out a C'tan that was labeled "anti-pysker" you would imagine about 50% of Necron players (me included) would buy that Day 1 and they would honestly rather have your money then you wanting them to change rules that might stop them from selling their products.
That is because most of those armies had all their ear gear already in the Index but got updated in the codex. Like T'au has a sick array of War gear for both HQs and other units, same with Tyranids, Orks, IG etc. We literally lost everything that gave us any flavor. If GW give us no upgrades then I'm putting all my crons back into their tomb world's till 9th edition comes out cause that would be utter BS.
We'll see, I suppose.
If the codex doesn't help us then I fear my Necrons might end up shelved as well.
Well no, see the problem with Destroyers is that they are 3 wounds a model and when you RP you get full wounds so even if 2 die and 1 survives and both comes back then you basically got 6 extra wounds via them coming back. That's the reason there always shot 1st because they know we get full wounds when we RP. Warriors and Immortals are 1 wound a piece so normal guns can take them out and if they RP there only 1 wound so no biggie but Destroyers are a bit tougher to deal with and take more fire power. So no matter what you do your opponent is always going to see them as a threat if they know the damage they can do.
That's true. Do you think it would help if they went back to having 2 wounds like they did in 7th (and got significantly cheaper, obviously)?
They only RP units I use is Tesla Immortals and a unit of 6-9 Gauss Tomb Blades with a mixture of 3+ saves and 5++. I think those are the best units that RP can work on due to how effective both are. I actually don't rely on RP to much, I just think of it as an extra save I get to re-roll at the start of my turn.
I'd agree with that.
I want to try out Praetorians sometime (I doubt they'll be good but I have delusions of a fast Necron army), so we'll see how that goes.
well 6 of them 18 attacks + 6 more for charging so 24 attacks might land you 10-14 wounds (depending on S vs T and your rolls) with re-rolling 1s would actually be pretty decent as a CC option. Even if it was against a unit of conscripts or any kind of horde army it would pretty much munch through them. Especially if you had 3 units of 6. Wouldn't make us OP but people would complain and I'm sick of people giving me gak for my playing Necrons because there naturally OP. According to my opponents and brother.
It would help a bit but I don't think it would make a significant difference.
I agree that people moaning about Necrons is annoying, but my point is they're clearly intent on doing that *anyway*. We're really weak at the moment and yet they're *still* bitching at us.
Therefore, there is no correlation between the strength/quality of our rules and the level of bitching about Necrons being OP.
Therefore, if our rules were improved (e.g. by the aforementioned aura) then there is no reason to expect that the level of bitching would change in any meaningful way.
In contrast, there is a lot of reason to expect that at least some parts of our army would become more fun and playable.
Given that there's going to be bitching no matter what, I'd rather go for the option wherein we get some decent rules out of it.
3. The problem with Wraiths is the same Problem as Destroyers. Once they are seen they are shot to death. Most people have a vendetta against Wraiths because of the Canoptek Harvest in 7th so when they get the chance to shoot them up they will always take it. well, in my experience anyway. Also, the 3+ invul in nice but they have no way of regaining wounds or coming back to life so if I was to use Wraiths I'd make sure I'd have a plan for them otherwise I just fill there spot with a TA or more Scarabs.
I agree entirely. But that's my whole point - a reroll 1s to-wound buff isn't going to change that in the slightest (it might even exacerbate it). Hence, such a buff isn't suddenly going to make Wraiths into OP murder-engines.
I want Wraiths to be good again. If they had living Metal I think they would be a small bit more beefy.
I don't think Living Metal would make much difference (since only 1 Wraith in a unit can be wounded at any time).
Not sure what the solution is, honestly. I do think that they need to be more killy (AP-1 just doesn't cut it) - maybe inflicting Mortal Wounds on 6s to-wound or something? No idea how to fix their survivability though.
One thing that does puzzle me - why aren't Wraiths Fearless? Wasn't that supposed to be their trade-off for not having RPs? Same with Scarabs.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/09/01 18:13:59
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Tbh, there is only so much Tactics we can chat about based on the Index and I think we have literally said and wrote all of the Tactics. So at this point it's either we keep talking about tactics we have already discussed or maybe you have a Tactic you would like to share?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Klowny wrote: lol at above. Also we should wait till we get our codex before doing anything drastic like youtube videos kek
Honestly man, I really think we are going to be one of the last, if not to last, armies to get our Codex. It's already be revealed that Nids, Eldar and Astra Mil are getting the next 3 codex after Admech and Deathguard meaning we only have 1 codex left before 2018 and based on 7th editiom feedback for 2-3 years everyone hated Necrons and everyone had something bad to say about them so I don't see us getting our Codex till March-April time.
I don't have a proper reason as to why our codex will be late but my gut feeling is telling me to not get my hopes up about it
Main reason I want to do a Video is so we can express our concerns for Necrons because if we base our Codex off of our Index we are going to be in a really bad place until 9th drops and GW realises they can't favour some armies and give others nothing just because majority of the people don't like them. I do feel like we're getting the most fuqqed over by GWATM.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/01 20:01:04
Dude, its not all gloom and doom. Sure, we arent a competitive codex atm, and we got nerfed pretty hard in relation to 7th.
But.
8th edition was the big cleanse, the one that nerfed all the top tier codex's. 7th was all superfriends and eldar, now its guard variants and oddball imperium lists.
All the bottom tier codex's got a buff and all the top was brought down. We got brought down a fair bit more, but I say we will get some good attention in the codex. They seem to be on a mission to have a roughly equal power level amongst all factions, and its fairly close currently. We just need some attention, which we will get.
Its actually better to get one of the last codex's, as it will mean we have had more time to get the better rules and ideas they learned from other codex write ups.
12,000
2017/09/01 21:18:12
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
I know next weekend I will be doing a 1.5K game. I'm versing a wRhound Titan. I will be bringing 2 pylons and an obelisk (my 3 LoW I own). Funny thing is the stick I get for a pylon been too effective and under costed.
Even pointing out the fact the Titan as 3 very effective weapons it can use each turn. And that it equals out to fact pylons got one weapon it can use. ( not to mention the ton of bonuses the Titan gets over the pylon)
Been told I should be bringing only 1 pylon and nothing else to make it a fairer fight :/
This came about After my pylon within a 2k force nearly annilated an Elder army popping a fire prism a turn plus a host of other vehicles. With the well documented double standard of they can bring what ever tricks and baubles they care to bring with no quibbles permitted. Funniest outcome of that fight thou was when the pylon was taken down by mass charges and an armies worth of shooting for many turns was it exploded and took out more of my own army then what my opponent had managed all game.
2017/09/01 23:15:07
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Klowny wrote: Dude, its not all gloom and doom. Sure, we arent a competitive codex atm, and we got nerfed pretty hard in relation to 7th.
Here is to hoping, mate. 8th edition has been pretty rough so far. We are out ranged / damaged in a fire fight and out classed in CC. Our only saving grace is the AP-1 on our basic weapons and RP (which is so/so in all honesty when your squad gets wiped top of turn 1).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/02 02:04:54
2017/09/02 03:30:32
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
At this rate I wouldn't be surprised to see plastic Sisters come out before we get our codex.
(and for the record, the reason we should be doing things like writing GW and making YouTube videos about what needs to change is to hopefully influence their decisions on how the codex turns out... unfortunately, trying to get people to do anything en mass isn't easy, as evidenced by the US election).
At the moment, our best tactic is to avoid the least cost effective units and focus on the most reliable ones... unfortunately this makes for some pretty stale lists and games, but we don't have a lot of options at this point unless we purposely want to hobble ourselves in the name of "fun" (losing can be fun, right?)
[and thank you, everyone, for keeping long non-tactic related discussion under spoilers]
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/02 03:32:33
2017/09/02 09:16:13
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Jesus lads were getting a codex within the next year, when was the last time we got one? Years ago. GW are doing their best, just chill a little bit. They can't please everyone all the time. You can still play and win casually pretty well if you know what your doing, and do okay in some tournaments, were just a hard mode army now, not the point and click brainless army of 7th.
12,000
2017/09/02 10:30:26
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Klowny wrote: Jesus lads were getting a codex within the next year, when was the last time we got one? Years ago. GW are doing their best, just chill a little bit. They can't please everyone all the time. You can still play and win casually pretty well if you know what your doing, and do okay in some tournaments, were just a hard mode army now, not the point and click brainless army of 7th.
Yip I've played around 20 games from 500pts to 2.5k in 8th and only lost 3
This is against experienced and new players.
Armies ranging across marines, chaos, elder, imperial. With more games coming up. ( nids, tau, more marines, more chaos)
To make a point I played against one of my fellow Cron players and won him with a chaos death guard army to point out this is a much harder force then crons.
12,000 
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