Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi folks, I need some advice.

I want to do some work on my ancient DA successor chapter, and I happen to have found two boxes of devastators - but minus the grav cannons that I hear everyone say are the best weapon choice for them.

So since I want to do some hobbying, what do I best equip them with? My army so far consists of lots of different things: 2 tac squads, 1 assault squad, 1 Ravenwing squad, 2 land speeders, some Deathwing, a Crusader. So I was thinking lascannons to improve my anti-tank, but then again, heavy bolters are just so sexy. They probably don't do much, though, right?

As you can see, I'm kind of stuck. What would you choose if grav wasn't an option?

Might as well go Lascannons. Just remember you're mostly paying for the range on them, though.

Is rocket launchers a viable option? It is cheap, but it seems to be pretty low in power. Flexible, though.

Buying grav cannons off of ebay is your best option.

Grav cannons are so much better than everything else it makes other option irrelevant for the most part.

Nah, I'm not currently going to put money into the game. A quick check on ebay showed a single grav cannon is around 10€ - that's a bit steep for just some ingame advantage that might evaporate with 8th edition.

I'd go magnets. Just magnetize the arms at the wrists, and have 'all' the weapon options for devastators (Havocs, etc). Gives you something to play with now (Lascannons, Missile Launchers), and provides you with the time and options to get some Gravs through (Ebay) single parts markets and seamlessly integrate them.

4xLC.

With the state of the game these days, I’m always looking to get more AV into my lists. For that, lascannons are the way to go for dev squads. Barring tricks for close range things like MMs/GCs. But for the classic camp in ruins load, LCs are the only real answer.

HBs are cool looking and fun. But they are a very niche weapon. The mulch light troops in the open. The problem is that most light troops have the common sense to stay hidden in cover. Plus most marine lists have plenty of normal bolters on the table, which target the same things. If there are a lot of horde armies in your area, maybe. But I would not generically recommend them.

Missile Launchers are the jack of all trades option. Which means they kinda suck at everything. If you want to pop tanks, S8 can work, but struggles against the heavy stuff. AP3 is not doing you any favors on the damage table. Small blasts don’t work as well as I’d like. Even halfway decent spacing with make it so you are only catching one or two guys under it. And then you have to roll to wound and armor saves. Better off just shooting a krack. I regret every frag I shoot downrange, even against optimal targets. And if all you are shooting is kracks, might as well pony up the points for the +1S, -1AP of the LC. Flack missiles don’t do their job very well and are overpriced. Avoid unless you are desperate for some AA and they are the only models you have.

PCs have all the problems of the small blast. Plus they get hot. If you are only generally catching one or two guys (and sometimes none) under the blast, might as well again just take the LC.

MMs are close range, so you need to move to get there. And if you move, you can’t shoot well. Unless you have some tricks to mitigate stuff, leave for tac squads or on the shelf.

GCs are good, albiet expensive and short range. But you wanted other options.

LCs have the range to sit back and camp, so they don’t need to move. The S to threaten anything, and the AP to cut through anything, and give you a bonus on the vehicle damage chart. With 4 in a squad, you can actually mass enough fire to kill something. Might not be the most efficient way of getting fire on the table, but they are functional.

If you need to mix guns in a dev squad, make sure everything has a similar range and wants to shoot at the same types of targets.

Those arguments make sense. Thank you for the comprehensive input, Nevelon. Lascannons it is, then.

In the absence of grav-cannons (op mofos that they are lol) it is probably best to look at your local meta. Is it MEQ/Tau/IG heavy? Go for lascannons all day long. Lots of horde armies like tyranids and orks? Missile Launcher is bae. Face lots of grey knights? Best to take grav, but without that your best bet is plasma cannons. Personally, I love missile launcher squads because they are, imho, the most flexible unit in the entire game.

Facing Space Marines who spam flyers and Tyranids with lots of Flying Monstrous Creatures? Flakk missiles will take care of that for you.

Against Tyranids you can use the "Frag" rounds for a S4 AP5 small blast, negating most of their armour saves and wounding most units on a 3. If you have to deal with a big monstrous creature, the best save they have in the tyranid codex is a 3+ and T6 which means you wound on 2's and ignore their armour. Only their swarmlord has an Invulnerable I believe (5++ from ranged attacks, GG Swarmlord) so these guns are Gods against Nids.

Facing Orks with a crappy T shirt save and poor AV vehicles? Glance it to death with your S8 krak missiles and then the next turn use frag missiles to destroy that 20 man unit of ork boys.

S8 means it can still glance AV14, even though it is difficult and is capable of glancing a rhino to death. I'd also say that their are better anti tank options in the SM codex like melta command squads or tri las predator, a 4 man lascannon squad can work in some lists, but I find it usually becomes priority target number one and they get rekt so easily once fire is concentrated on them.

I have a 9 man squad of these and I love them to death, even as a BA player and all my fast tanks, these guys will always be one of my first picks as they are SO cheap compared to other heavy weapons. I can not stress enough just how flexible, cheap and good they are. The best bit is the opponent usually underestimates them with some "What is this, 5th ed?" comment right before I blow them off the table. Also, no one will call you a power-gamer for spamming grav (even though I personally think it is fair) and they are genuinely fun to use. Good luck deciding on your loadout

 Nevelon wrote:
4xLC.

With the state of the game these days, I’m always looking to get more AV into my lists. For that, lascannons are the way to go for dev squads. Barring tricks for close range things like MMs/GCs. But for the classic camp in ruins load, LCs are the only real answer.

HBs are cool looking and fun. But they are a very niche weapon. The mulch light troops in the open. The problem is that most light troops have the common sense to stay hidden in cover. Plus most marine lists have plenty of normal bolters on the table, which target the same things. If there are a lot of horde armies in your area, maybe. But I would not generically recommend them.

Missile Launchers are the jack of all trades option. Which means they kinda suck at everything. If you want to pop tanks, S8 can work, but struggles against the heavy stuff. AP3 is not doing you any favors on the damage table. Small blasts don’t work as well as I’d like. Even halfway decent spacing with make it so you are only catching one or two guys under it. And then you have to roll to wound and armor saves. Better off just shooting a krack. I regret every frag I shoot downrange, even against optimal targets. And if all you are shooting is kracks, might as well pony up the points for the +1S, -1AP of the LC. Flack missiles don’t do their job very well and are overpriced. Avoid unless you are desperate for some AA and they are the only models you have.

PCs have all the problems of the small blast. Plus they get hot. If you are only generally catching one or two guys (and sometimes none) under the blast, might as well again just take the LC.

MMs are close range, so you need to move to get there. And if you move, you can’t shoot well. Unless you have some tricks to mitigate stuff, leave for tac squads or on the shelf.

GCs are good, albiet expensive and short range. But you wanted other options.

LCs have the range to sit back and camp, so they don’t need to move. The S to threaten anything, and the AP to cut through anything, and give you a bonus on the vehicle damage chart. With 4 in a squad, you can actually mass enough fire to kill something. Might not be the most efficient way of getting fire on the table, but they are functional.

If you need to mix guns in a dev squad, make sure everything has a similar range and wants to shoot at the same types of targets.

Exalted. Nice rundown and concise analysis Nevelon, completly agree with everything you said.

Worthy mention to MM with a cata captain to tow them around and tank shots, especially in the gladius where you need a captain anyway.

Pcannons if used on their own are a bit of a liability - you need either twin linking or the Technosnail/Haemotrope (and ideally both) to make them viable if you absolutely positively don't want grav. On top of that you need a way to force your Opponenent to clump, which generally means lots of light tanks to herd them with tanks shocks (not that hard with a gladius I suppose)

Imperial Fist Heavy Bolters in the Stern Hammer, are at the very least *viable* as they have near to the same damage output as the Punisher tank for a fair few points less.

I know the common logic is not not mix/match weapons in a Dev Squad, but doesn't it add flexibility if you don't know what army you will be facing?

 Showtime wrote:
I know the common logic is not not mix/match weapons in a Dev Squad, but doesn't it add flexibility if you don't know what army you will be facing?

It's better to have specialized units with purposes because they ususally run cheaper than making a generalist unit. Also Why spread your anti armor and anti infantry over two squads when you'd of been better off having two squads with a unified purpose when facing tank and infantry at the same time?

 Showtime wrote:
I know the common logic is not not mix/match weapons in a Dev Squad, but doesn't it add flexibility if you don't know what army you will be facing?

You add flexibility at the cost of specialization. You end up with the squad that’s not going to excel at anything, but can always kinda fake it.

So for example, you run 2xML, 2xLC. Not a bad choice. Can be built out of one Dev box. Guns have similar range. They can all take down tanks. But if you are shooting at heavy armor, the MLs are going to lag behind the LCs. The squad is not as good at popping tanks.

But if you are up against a green tide, or some other horde army that lacks tanks, you can switch to frags on the MLs. The LCs are wasted on boyz, but will pop one most of the time. MLs might do a little bit better. Overall the squad is going to be overpriced for the job.

Other mixed pairings can work. Mostly based around 2xMLs, plus another gun. HB/ML squads are good for light troops, but can also threaten light armor. PC/ML squads deal with heavier infantry and light armor.

40k as a game generally supports specialization. You don’t want to kinda irritate a tank this turn, and maybe finish it off next round. You want it dead now If you don’t blow the front line off the green tide, they will be in CC next round and you won’t get the second shot. I’d rather take a 4xLC squad for my devs and leave the anti horde stuff to things like tac squads with flamers, WWs, TFCs, etc. At least when playing at point values where I can afford to have multiple specialized units. In tighter lists, the jack of all trades nature of the ML is a bit more valuable. Overall I play a TAC, but the individual units tend to be specialized. Not all of them, I do have a number of units that can take on multiple targets. MM/M c-melta tac squads, TML/HB speeders. But I specialize my Devs.

YMMV.

Whatever you go for, arm all four models with the same weapon. Mixing weapons sounds like a good idea at first because your unit can do everything, but you soon realise what kind of a mistake this is.

Hi,

I'm torn on devastator squads.

I wouldn't go grav because they're not relentless or slow & purposeful, and grav heavies have poor reduced range. I know it's the general advice around here, but it's like 35 points per cannon (right?), on a 1 wound unit with a 3+ save. People who say stuff like "don't think always take grav" are not giving you genuine advice.

If you want grav, centurion devastators are the unit, in my opinion. they've got 2 wounds and while slightly more expensive, they'll always be firing the full salvo without snapshots. They also have a 2+ save.

If I personally was kitting out a devastator squad, i'd put 4 lascannons on them. It comes out to be 150 points total. 4 lascannon shots, coupled with (in my case) ultramarines devastator doctrine, means i've got pretty good odds at making something go boom when needed and they're far back with a 48" range.

Although, i'm considering going with a predator with 3 lascannons on it. it's 10 points less, and can move and fire (and one las is twin linked). I know that is the less popular choice, but I find being able to move, and move a large distance, can be very critical. That said, I play 1000 point games and the board is far less congested.

So, tournament players will give different advice. Just my 2c.

A predator will die so easily I wouldn't bother.

A predator at long range is fairly durable. Against podded melta it obviously crumbles. I'm not sure how good non -fast preds are.

 Showtime wrote:
I know the common logic is not not mix/match weapons in a Dev Squad, but doesn't it add flexibility if you don't know what army you will be facing?

There's not much out there that likes a lascannon to the face and it's a rare army that doesn't have any targets worth shooting lascannons at. If you're facing green tide, well, they will usually have some support like mek gunz, MANs missiles, tankbusters in a truck or similar. Hoarde 'Nids will still have MC's and T4 multiwound infantry [warriors/zoeys/venoms]. About the only thing that I can think of that won't have great targets is GSC, but even then IIRC they still have multiwound T4 dudes (even if they're not good, I think the formations require them). The other option is to take a 2/2 mix and buy a bunch of meatshields so you can combat squad them, but at that point, you're always going to combat squad them, so what's the point? About the only time you can really get away with it is with Fists since even a heavy bolter will do work against AV11 transports with tank hunter (each fist heavy bolter puts ~0.76 glances on a rhino).

If you're worried about hoardes, you've got bolters on pretty much everything else in your army to deal with T3/4 5+/6+ save chumps. What armies are you really worried about that you won't have a good target for that can't be drowned in bolterfire?

Bolters are crap and shouldn't be relied on to accomplish much of anything. Unless you are running battle company or something like that, marines lack the numbers to actually cause enough damage with their small arms. That and it turns off assaulting. Mega crap.

Lascannons, while functional, are generally not efficient enough against MCs to impact the outcome of the game. They are somewhat better vs vehicles, since a single pen can at least suppress their shooting, and has a 16% chance to explode.

 Lord Xcapobl wrote:
I'd go magnets. Just magnetize the arms at the wrists, and have 'all' the weapon options for devastators (Havocs, etc). Gives you something to play with now (Lascannons, Missile Launchers), and provides you with the time and options to get some Gravs through (Ebay) single parts markets and seamlessly integrate them.

I prefer magnetizing at the shoulders and back with Devs. It lets you swap between different weapon assemblies but is admittedly a PITA.

Frankly with all the bits needed to magnetize heavy weapon guys, I’d just pick up some spare power armored bodies for the extra weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters are crap and shouldn't be relied on to accomplish much of anything. Unless you are running battle company or something like that, marines lack the numbers to actually cause enough damage with their small arms. That and it turns off assaulting. Mega crap.

Lascannons, while functional, are generally not efficient enough against MCs to impact the outcome of the game. They are somewhat better vs vehicles, since a single pen can at least suppress their shooting, and has a 16% chance to explode.

Are you trying to suggest that every list should only take weaponry to hurt monstrous creatures, and to not take things that protect against assault? I am somewhat confused what the advice is in here.

Take weapons that engage the most dangerous units as a priority. People use grav because it is one of the few ways to hurt say wraithknight. Units that are hurt by boltguns are also hurt by say autocannons, but the autocannons do a lot more.

Martel732 wrote:
Take weapons that engage the most dangerous units as a priority. People use grav because it is one of the few ways to hurt say wraithknight. Units that are hurt by boltguns are also hurt by say autocannons, but the autocannons do a lot more.

Ok, so just to be clear you're advocating spending over 200 points on a 5man devastator squad because Wraithknights.

Only in a skyhammer. And even then its a gamble. I typically don't use devs except in a demi company. My real advice is don't use devastators.

Martel732 wrote:
Only in a skyhammer. And even then its a gamble. I typically don't use devs except in a demi company. My real advice is don't use devastators.

That's fair.

I bought a devastator squad so i can take heavy weapons with my TACs.

I usually run a 90/95 point TAC squad with a combi and a 10/15 point heavy. I've found my TAC squads are good at (a) dying and (b) sitting on objective markers. I know people like to run specialist weapons, but when you're dealing with lower point levels, there simply aren't as many models, so the extra range is very useful.

If I were to run a devastator squad, it would field 4 Lascannons. A 48" range is nothing to sneeze at. You can dig them in somewhere, and present a risk to anthing in LOS. But again, I primarily play 1000 points, so YMMV.

Tbh I wouldnt ever give a Dev squad a full complement of grav cannons. You want Grav Devs dangerously close to the enemy. I prefer 6-7 Grav Dev squads with two cannons a piece so that points dont immediately go down the toilet when they attract fire.

But to answer the OP Lascannons. Plasma Cannons are often worse than Plasma Guns, Heavy Bolters are underpowered, missile launchers are mediocre all around and Multi-Meltas are weapon that requires the user to move close to use them effectively but also penalizes moving the weapon. They really should be Assault 1. Lascannons are a decent if somewhat overpriced heavy weapon. They are starting to show their age since their rules haven't been updated... ever.

I can really see a trend here

Thanks for all the extra advice, but the overall most repeated opinion seems to be lascannons. I actually haven't even started building yet, but I'll soon give it a try.

I'm not really into too competitive gaming (because I think that's useless with a game as unbalanced as this), I just don't want to bring complete rubbish.

Missile launchers are actually worse than advertised on here. Their krak mode is very limited at S8 AP3. It can't penetrate 2+ armor and can't explode vehicles. The frag mode is crippled by the small blast. To put this in perspective,when I build lists, I bring ZERO small blast weapons. That's how terrible small blasts are.

So yes, lascannons. They're not great, but they at least pen 2+ armor and can explode vehicles. They actually have double the chance of neutralizing transports because they immobilize on a 5 and explode on a 6.