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Definitely time to start bugging GW to do a Bestiary add-on book for this

And for other additions, I'd be happy with boxes priced around that of Start Collecting with additional floor plans and some gribblies.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
This game is literally just a truckload worse then Silver Tower.

Based on what measure?

Evidently recycling older models, even though many players may not even have a single one of them (and apparently coop rules are gone) but with more content in other ways, means the game is worse by a large margin. Somehow. Horray for hyperbole!

On that note, Silver Tower reminds me more of one of the Old expansion sets, like Catacombs of Terror because it was comparatively narrowly focussed - it was about Dungeoneering solely in a Silver Tower.

Shadows over Hammerhal, despite its lack of new models feels more like a base set, with from what I can tell far more generic dungeon floor tiles - generic enough to be added to with extra sets, hopefully focusing on new areas - and opening up the possibility of more traditional dungeoneers to go a-raiding.

Me, I'm defo getting this, at some point. Sadly a bellend kicked off in my flat and broke a window on Saturday morning, so there goes my gaming and LARP budget for the month!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:
Apparently no new minis means the game sucks. Funny that everyone bemoans GW for being a miniature company and not a games company, and when they put out games(and some really, really good ones) with existing minis, they are crucified for it.

Yet more evidence some people's GW "hobby" is just complaining about whatever they do.

Sorry, but that's just as much nonsense as what str00dles1 said.


It can be bad that GW released a game with no new minis and still be a good game. This isn't an either/or situation.

Right, but he said the game sucks because it doesn't have new minis without ever playing the game. He's not judging the game in its quality, he judging it on the lack of new minis. Until we all get our hands on it or watch a review, we can't judge the quality of the game.

This is a much less appealing offering than Silver Tower barring some overlooked killer feature in the rules that I just don't see materializing at this point. As I don't own many of the models it's not a bad collection, but since I don't care for the 2 elf models and it's a bit scattered in theme I'll be probably be waiting for a while for it to hit better discount thresholds.

As someone earlier said, I do hope that GW is expecting lower sales on a warmed-over collection of existing stuff versus a brand-new hotness. I'd hate to see nuQuest get shoved to the side in terms of support because it can't shift old kits.

 Krinsath wrote:
This is a much less appealing offering than Silver Tower barring some overlooked killer feature in the rules that I just don't see materializing at this point. As I don't own many of the models it's not a bad collection, but since I don't care for the 2 elf models and it's a bit scattered in theme I'll be probably be waiting for a while for it to hit better discount thresholds.

As someone earlier said, I do hope that GW is expecting lower sales on a warmed-over collection of existing stuff versus a brand-new hotness. I'd hate to see nuQuest get shoved to the side in terms of support because it can't shift old kits.

Shoved to the side? When was it ever front and centre? So far we have two subpar versions of WHQ and two things which I'm told are expansions but really aren't. I'm really disappointed tbh. How hard is it to remake the thing you made twenty odd years ago but prettier? Why do none of these games come with plastic arches/chests? Because you're not supposed to be playing WHQ you're supposed to make a Tzeentch AoS army or run a short dungeon using your army general. In short it's not a "proper" game though it should be.

JSG wrote:

 Krinsath wrote:
This is a much less appealing offering than Silver Tower barring some overlooked killer feature in the rules that I just don't see materializing at this point. As I don't own many of the models it's not a bad collection, but since I don't care for the 2 elf models and it's a bit scattered in theme I'll be probably be waiting for a while for it to hit better discount thresholds.

As someone earlier said, I do hope that GW is expecting lower sales on a warmed-over collection of existing stuff versus a brand-new hotness. I'd hate to see nuQuest get shoved to the side in terms of support because it can't shift old kits.

Shoved to the side? When was it ever front and centre? So far we have two subpar versions of WHQ and two things which I'm told are expansions but really aren't. I'm really disappointed tbh. How hard is it to remake the thing you made twenty odd years ago but prettier? Why do none of these games come with plastic arches/chests? Because you're not supposed to be playing WHQ you're supposed to make a Tzeentch AoS army or run a short dungeon using your army general. In short it's not a "proper" game though it should be.

Yes, because that's how you justify the initial expenditure on a new product; if the core product isn't very good we'll just fall back on the sales to people who want to use the models for other stuff. If GW feels that the WHQ brand can shift models (which is still their focus) then that brand will receive more and better support which will have a chance turn it into those things you want. If it doesn't, then the project will fade away and nothing further will ever materialize and GW's attentions will shift to something else that is generating revenues.

I'm not saying buy it or GW will drop the project, but when the bean-counters look at SOH and see it's not doing as well as ST will they have someone who provides the context as to why or will they see it as proof that people really just want AoS and WHQ can be left for dead? It's GW, so sometimes the obvious seems to elude their corporate culture.

Obviously I'm aware of that. In fact that's exactly what I'm moaning about. there are people working for GW who have been there longer than I've been alive and I'm supposed to believe people are umming and ahhing over whether WHQ will sell or not? Of course the bean counters are asking if it will sell better than the next rushed out 40k AoS book but then thats the problem. No one should even be asking them.

Anyway, rant over. It just annoys me that we can't get a decent WHQ yet we get hero bases. Seems Space Hulk was a one off.

str00dles1 wrote:

 mdauben wrote:
Its good to see a proper expansion to the game but honestly the content isn't exciting me at all.

That's because its not a proper expansion to Silver Tower

This game is literally just a truckload worse then Silver Tower.

Well, its not just a set of cards and a few repackaged minis... wait.

Seriously, you may argue its not a very good expansion to Warhammer Quest, but I don't think you can honestly argue it isn't a proper expansion. New (to the game) figures, new tiles, new rules, all in a nice new box. Yes, a complete set of all new figures like the first game would have been nice, but I don't think it means the expansion is worthless.

I think that people who are upset about not getting new miniatures in the box are not acting like petulant children. I think they are acting like paranoid customers. While I applaud GW for the many positive changes that they have made regarding social media and advertising, they still have a way to go in allaying customer fears that have built up over 20 years of mismanagement. Take for example the plethora of reboxed games with recycled miniatures. GW have been very resistant to lowering prices because they see it as devaluing their product. But they must also see that many stores sell their product at a discount because the community sees it as overpriced. So in order to save face they rebox a bunch of expensive models in a one-off game to give customers a break on price without appearing to lower prices. They are also repackaging their figures such that you get more in a box for a lower price. But many of us have great nostalgia for Warhammer Quest. When you put out product with recycled miniatures, you are seemingly moving Warhammer Quest from the protected games category (if there even is such a thing) to the one-off, could be discontinued tomorrow category. This makes customers nervous. Combine this with their penchant for being secretive about future releases, and the paranoia becomes worse. Any other company that was starting a new product line would give a presentation showing releases months ahead. Just one presentation showing that 6 months from now a new Warhammer Quest expansion would be released with all new miniatures would put everyone at ease. But GW is still married to the idea that if they keep Johnny in the dark about new releases, he will run out and buy that third Landraider instead of saving up his money for the next release. I teach economics, and aside from flying in the face of years of evidence that advertising works, there is a countervailing theory called customer remorse, which is the idea that if a customer buys a product and then later sees a better product from this or another company, he will be LESS likely to buy from you again. So we have one-off reboxes, secretive future releases, a long history of dropping even popular games (look how long it took for Bloodbowl to resurface), and up until recently, a history of not listening to the consumer. And before I get lit-up by a bunch of fan-boy nonsense, know that I was a GW outrider all the way back in '82, and I tend to buy a lot of what they put out. OK, flame away!

Wall of text Smellingsalts. All I can read is you are complaining about someone who has an opinion and since you view it as negative they are petulant children?

Heaven forbid you don't agree with something and then be considered what you said for having a differing opinion. I couldn't get what you really ment can you please use paragraphs maybe I can get your point then.

@Devor
I dont think you read his wall of text at all before attempting to call him out. I suggest you reread it and you will see he didnt call anyone petulant children and instead was discussing GW's new businees practice.

Your remark is so far off its rather insulting.

Damn we are losing our skills on reading something longer than a fb post!

I found Silver Tower a terrible game, rules were poorly written and boring to play because every room we had to jump from a page to another in order to see what was happebing6or what monsters would act.

I love the idea of a Master that make the adventure more easy to play and live and love the possibility of spending time in city- like the truse whq!

The dice placement system will remain the same - it seems - but hey, it is a step to the right way in my opinion.

No new minis? Who cares...

They need to make a game without using existing models. Or at the very least have it not exclusively be heroes vs just new chaos models..
We need a mix of creatures not just different versions of chaos warriors.
I want standard heroes not super crazy AoS ones.

The inclusion of a GM means that creating custom rules for any of the other miniatures in the AoS range is a 5 minute job. I would of course love to have the the Death themed box with lovely new model which was first rumoured. Hopefully that'll be coming in the not too distant future.

I don't mind old minis seeing new use in this set, what irks me is the lack of enemy variety.

3 types. That' it. Plus a boss monster. No random familiars wandering around mucking things up either.

Certainly not as much variation as Silver Tower. Hopefully the enemies aren't all a bunch of pushovers.

We were discussing this dilemma the other day- our hope is that it's more like a Dark Souls type situation, where even the lowly schlub monsters can whoop you if you aren't careful.

The original 1995 WHQ came with plastic Goblins (4th WFB starter set released in 1992), Skaven (1993) and Orc Boyz and Orc Archers (~1992) - all previously available. Some of these could have been even older. Only the four hero models, the single Minotaur sculpt and the small monsters were new at the time. The game consisted of one sculpt for each unit in the game, and everything was monopose. Even Space Crusade in 1990 was less repetitive. Comparing them with the multipart Undead and 40k plastic miniatures that were available since 1990 and the metal range, these were more game markers than anything. Imho only the heroes were fine.

I consider it a mistake though that GW has not already previewed the new rules that come with Hammerhal. Not a good decision.

 Bottle wrote:
The inclusion of a GM means that creating custom rules for any of the other miniatures in the AoS range is a 5 minute job. I would of course love to have the the Death themed box with lovely new model which was first rumoured. Hopefully that'll be coming in the not too distant future.

I hate this argument. At the end of the day, creating a new set of rules is not exactly long or hard either (a good one is another thing though).GW should stop to crowdsource these things to the community and hire some game designers to release a complete bestiary.

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
The inclusion of a GM means that creating custom rules for any of the other miniatures in the AoS range is a 5 minute job. I would of course love to have the the Death themed box with lovely new model which was first rumoured. Hopefully that'll be coming in the not too distant future.

I hate this argument. At the end of the day, creating a new set of rules is not exactly long or hard either (a good one is another thing though).GW should stop to crowdsource these things to the community and hire some game designers to release a complete bestiary.

Hopefully they will. It's something I would love to see too. I simply mean that now the game uses a GM who decides the encounters it makes it easier than ST to add in other monsters as they don't need to be built into spawn mechanics and don't even really need AI mechanics either. I am saying the scope of the game has opened up, but sure, I would love more official GW content for it too.

Chopxsticks wrote:@Devor
I dont think you read his wall of text at all before attempting to call him out. I suggest you reread it and you will see he didnt call anyone petulant children and instead was discussing GW's new businees practice.

Your remark is so far off its rather insulting.

I indeed reread the first sentence and I see I did misread it. I did try to read his wall of text but the words became blurred for me and I tried to make it out. My point still stands. Because of the wall of text and how blurred it made all the words to me, I can't read it. Now I see I have erred that he didn't call people that. Point still stands, if it wasn't for the wall of text the words wouldn't have blurred for me.

That said, I don't like to make excuses so I do apologize for being insulting there.

Zethnar wrote:
If you want a more Co-op focused dungeon crawl check out Shadows of Brimstone by Flying Frog Productions, it's loosely based on the rules from the old Warhammer Quest (if you haven't seen it already). There's also Sword & Sorcery from Ares Games coming out a bit later this year, Massive Darkness from CMON, and Darklight: Memento Mori by Dark Ice Games (also heavily based on the old Warhammer Quest)..

Thanks for the suggestions, I've actually got Kingdom Death and play it a ton, and have Dark Souls on its way, but have been interested in Brimstone (just never pulled the trigger). Silver Tower just filled a gaming niche for my group of one that is casual enough (co-op, easy) that anyone is ready to throw down if we wanted a game but were tired from work or w/e, and having to run it is just not what I was looking for.

Warhams-77 wrote:
The original 1995 WHQ came with plastic Goblins (4th WFB starter set released in 1992), Skaven (1993) and Orc Boyz and Orc Archers (~1992) - all previously available. Some of these could have been even older. Only the four hero models, the single Minotaur sculpt and the small monsters were new at the time. The game consisted of one sculpt for each unit in the game, and everything was monopose. Even Space Crusade in 1990 was less repetitive. Comparing them with the multipart Undead and 40k plastic miniatures that were available since 1990 and the metal range, these were more game markers than anything. Imho only the heroes were fine.

I consider it a mistake though that GW has not already previewed the new rules that come with Hammerhal. Not a good decision.

Several of the GW games from back then did the same exact thing. Tyranid Attack (Advanced Space Crusade) used Space Hulk plastics for the Genestealers and Terminators.

Using previously released sculpts does not equate to impending doom.

More info on the game. This time it's fluff:

We first saw the Free Cities of Sigmar emerge during the Season of War campaign last summer. Sigmar’s forces won decisive victories across the realms, and as a result, the the cities of the Free People were able to grow in the regions recently cleared of Chaos forces. We’re now a bit further down the timeline of the Age of Sigmar, and we find ourselves in perhaps the greatest of all Order’s new bastions: the twin-tailed city of Hammerhal.

Why Twin-tailed? Because it sits on a Realmgate connecting the two realms of verdant Ghyran and ash-choked Aqshy. Lava from the Realm of Fire pours constantly through the rift, burning away the ever-regrowing forest in the Life-bound half of the city and keeping the flora from overgrowing the city limits. As you can already see – this is a far more unusual and fantastical city than even the most bizarre from the World That Was.

This was one of the first cities to be established in the realms, at a vital trading point and strategic location, so it has grown to be one of the largest. The sprawl of the city can be seen best in the maps that are included in the Warhammer Quest: Shadows over Hammerhal Adventure Book.

There is a great map of Hammerhal Aqsha (the half of the city in the Realm of Fire) and a close up inset of the Cinderfall District within it. Cinderfall is where much of the above-ground action in the game takes place (the city is so big, we explore just a tiny fraction of it in this adventure).

Also in this book, and accompanying the thirty pages describing the quest’s backstory, are numerous illustrations of the city. These range from grand Sigmarite cathedrals to warrens of houses and dwellings among great statues of the God-King and his celestial champions. Many of these images are reminiscent of cities from the Old World, but with a more expansive, grander and fantastical aspect that sets them firmly within the Mortal Realms.

More stuff tomorrow:

Here's two out of the four images shown:

New minis or old minis given the flimsy rules of ST and the amount of mini's I just don't see £90 worth of value. Maybe £60 at best unless the rules are substantially better than ST then £70ish might see me buy it.

Silver Tower almost completely justified it's price in the new miniatures and most certainley not the rules, this "expansion" not so much.

I have to say that the scant number of miniatures is a bit surprising (particularly the lack of bad guy variety). I think this is going to push the sales gimmick aspect of the game (which is something Warhammer Quest originally did quite brilliantly). I suspect you'll have some adventures which use the bog standard stuff in the box, perhaps a couple which combine with SIlver Tower - but they MUST include some stats for other stuff because the game looks terribly flat/frail with its tiny amount of bad guy models.

The genius of the original WHQ included the fact that it was an excuse for people to go buy blisters of damn near everything from Warhammer Fantasy (an issue nowdays because of the lack of blisters). It wasn't uncommon for people to make a project of completing an entire level's monster list - this meant a lot of small sales for GW as people wandered into the store to buy small regiment boxes or blisters.

Warhams-77 wrote:
The original 1995 WHQ came with plastic Goblins (4th WFB starter set released in 1992), Skaven (1993) and Orc Boyz and Orc Archers (~1992) - all previously available. Some of these could have been even older. Only the four hero models, the single Minotaur sculpt and the small monsters were new at the time. The game consisted of one sculpt for each unit in the game, and everything was monopose. Even Space Crusade in 1990 was less repetitive. Comparing them with the multipart Undead and 40k plastic miniatures that were available since 1990 and the metal range, these were more game markers than anything. Imho only the heroes were fine.

I consider it a mistake though that GW has not already previewed the new rules that come with Hammerhal. Not a good decision.

I don't mind the reuse of existing miniatures, but having only 3 monster types is disappointing, as is the choice for the boss monster. Adding a sprue of minor monsters (could probably fit 3 types on a single sprue) and a more impressive boss (or two, like Silver Tower got) would have made the release feel more like a full game.

The map of Hammerhal is pretty cool, though the monotone kinda makes it drab, so it's hard to really what is what other than a general sense. Most DnD maps of cities are better.

Plus, the more I think about the fact that this is supposed to have *all* the various aspects of chaos fighting it out in the city, where are the Children of the Horned Rat?

Why no Skaven?

With the Horned Rat part of the official pantheon of the major gods, why isn't it represented in the city? Odd.

Man, rat men sneaking around under a city instead of shirtless barbarians? What planet are you on?

Well I for one have a differing opinion than most. I like the game and will eventually buy it. I didn't rush out to order due to some of the complaints others had -including models I already own, and lack of co-op.

However, I see the baddies operate the same way which is an opporeunite for us coop lovers. They are picked and placed by a DM instead of a table, and a table would be easy to make. So, in essence, I see new tiles that look more like a dungeon (yay!), new enemy types, and a new boss. All ways to grow a game I already like