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So - what I said much earlier.

Bear in mind the gemanie suffer ID from most destroyer hits to the d3 is not relevant.

Fhionnuisce wrote:

Azoqu wrote:
I will just chip in with this, if Celestine is in front and fails a look out sir rolls which rolls a 6 the following happens: She will take d6+6 wounds which gets passed off, if 9 wounds are rolled then 4 of those wounds go to the Gemini and Celestine will take 5 to the face and die horribly. This is because (at least how I read it) wounds dealt to Celestine are passed off, not the hit, but eventually 4 wounds are passed off so she will take the remaining.

The Destroyer rules states that the d6+6 wounds are all dealt to a model, not allocated to within the unit as normal. On a single D weapon hit you can only have a single model die, any extra wounds from that hit are lost.

That is not how Celestine's rules work, A Deathblow to Celestine with 9+ wounds will kill the unit

Fragile wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:

Azoqu wrote:
I will just chip in with this, if Celestine is in front and fails a look out sir rolls which rolls a 6 the following happens: She will take d6+6 wounds which gets passed off, if 9 wounds are rolled then 4 of those wounds go to the Gemini and Celestine will take 5 to the face and die horribly. This is because (at least how I read it) wounds dealt to Celestine are passed off, not the hit, but eventually 4 wounds are passed off so she will take the remaining.

The Destroyer rules states that the d6+6 wounds are all dealt to a model, not allocated to within the unit as normal. On a single D weapon hit you can only have a single model die, any extra wounds from that hit are lost.

That is not how Celestine's rules work, A Deathblow to Celestine with 9+ wounds will kill the unit

How do you figure? You roll Deathblow, Celestine automatically Looks Out, Sir to one of the Germinae. That Germinae takes D6+6 Wounds with no saves allowed. The first wound kills the Germinae, and the rest are lost.

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:

Azoqu wrote:
I will just chip in with this, if Celestine is in front and fails a look out sir rolls which rolls a 6 the following happens: She will take d6+6 wounds which gets passed off, if 9 wounds are rolled then 4 of those wounds go to the Gemini and Celestine will take 5 to the face and die horribly. This is because (at least how I read it) wounds dealt to Celestine are passed off, not the hit, but eventually 4 wounds are passed off so she will take the remaining.

The Destroyer rules states that the d6+6 wounds are all dealt to a model, not allocated to within the unit as normal. On a single D weapon hit you can only have a single model die, any extra wounds from that hit are lost.

That is not how Celestine's rules work, A Deathblow to Celestine with 9+ wounds will kill the unit

How do you figure? You roll Deathblow, Celestine automatically Looks Out, Sir to one of the Germinae. That Germinae takes D6+6 Wounds with no saves allowed. The first wound kills the Germinae, and the rest are lost.

The thing is Celestine is not Looking Out, her wounds just get passed off. So you know this also works to your benefit, if she's in a challenge the wounds get passed out of the challenge on onto a Geminae after saves are made.

Hmm. Curious. I also read this as auto-pass Look-out-Sir. However...the actual rule reads:

Divine Guardians...(drones have 4++)... In addition, whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest do her instead. ...(can join with drones, leaves unit with drones...).
Fall of Cadia, p. 122

Compare with:
Look out, sir and shooting ... successful. Determine which model in the unit is closest to the character, and allocate the wound to that model instead. ...
BRB, p.100

So it's not quite the same?
The trigger isn't a wound being allocated to Celestine, it's Celestine suffering the wound, which sounds suspiciously like she failed to save the wound and the associated suffering.

Azoqu wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:

Azoqu wrote:
I will just chip in with this, if Celestine is in front and fails a look out sir rolls which rolls a 6 the following happens: She will take d6+6 wounds which gets passed off, if 9 wounds are rolled then 4 of those wounds go to the Gemini and Celestine will take 5 to the face and die horribly. This is because (at least how I read it) wounds dealt to Celestine are passed off, not the hit, but eventually 4 wounds are passed off so she will take the remaining.

The Destroyer rules states that the d6+6 wounds are all dealt to a model, not allocated to within the unit as normal. On a single D weapon hit you can only have a single model die, any extra wounds from that hit are lost.

That is not how Celestine's rules work, A Deathblow to Celestine with 9+ wounds will kill the unit

How do you figure? You roll Deathblow, Celestine automatically Looks Out, Sir to one of the Germinae. That Germinae takes D6+6 Wounds with no saves allowed. The first wound kills the Germinae, and the rest are lost.

The thing is Celestine is not Looking Out, her wounds just get passed off. So you know this also works to your benefit, if she's in a challenge the wounds get passed out of the challenge on onto a Geminae after saves are made.

With Celestine I think this may actually be right. Normally with D weapons the wounds from each hit are allocated as a set, but in this case all wounds are being allocated to Celestine. Each wound is them individually moved to a Geminae by Divine Guardians.

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:

Azoqu wrote:
I will just chip in with this, if Celestine is in front and fails a look out sir rolls which rolls a 6 the following happens: She will take d6+6 wounds which gets passed off, if 9 wounds are rolled then 4 of those wounds go to the Gemini and Celestine will take 5 to the face and die horribly. This is because (at least how I read it) wounds dealt to Celestine are passed off, not the hit, but eventually 4 wounds are passed off so she will take the remaining.

The Destroyer rules states that the d6+6 wounds are all dealt to a model, not allocated to within the unit as normal. On a single D weapon hit you can only have a single model die, any extra wounds from that hit are lost.

That is not how Celestine's rules work, A Deathblow to Celestine with 9+ wounds will kill the unit

How do you figure? You roll Deathblow, Celestine automatically Looks Out, Sir to one of the Germinae. That Germinae takes D6+6 Wounds with no saves allowed. The first wound kills the Germinae, and the rest are lost.

There is no LOS involved though. They just suffer her wounds. She takes 9 wounds from the D hit and 4 of those wounds automatically go to the Geminae. Although, I guess she could try to LOS the initial D hit away first instead and nearly accomplish the same goal.

 Stephanius wrote:
Hmm. Curious. I also read this as auto-pass Look-out-Sir. However...the actual rule reads:

Divine Guardians...(drones have 4++)... In addition, whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest do her instead. ...(can join with drones, leaves unit with drones...).
Fall of Cadia, p. 122

Compare with:
Look out, sir and shooting ... successful. Determine which model in the unit is closest to the character, and allocate the wound to that model instead. ...
BRB, p.100

So it's not quite the same?
The trigger isn't a wound being allocated to Celestine, it's Celestine suffering the wound, which sounds suspiciously like she failed to save the wound and the associated suffering.

AHh I was unaware of the wording of her rule there then. I'd say in this case all the wounds (so up to D6+6 per hit) would get resolved on her/passed to the Geminae as I'd say it seems like she has to be failing a save before you can allocate the wounds elsewhere?

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:

Azoqu wrote:
I will just chip in with this, if Celestine is in front and fails a look out sir rolls which rolls a 6 the following happens: She will take d6+6 wounds which gets passed off, if 9 wounds are rolled then 4 of those wounds go to the Gemini and Celestine will take 5 to the face and die horribly. This is because (at least how I read it) wounds dealt to Celestine are passed off, not the hit, but eventually 4 wounds are passed off so she will take the remaining.

The Destroyer rules states that the d6+6 wounds are all dealt to a model, not allocated to within the unit as normal. On a single D weapon hit you can only have a single model die, any extra wounds from that hit are lost.

That is not how Celestine's rules work, A Deathblow to Celestine with 9+ wounds will kill the unit

How do you figure? You roll Deathblow, Celestine automatically Looks Out, Sir to one of the Germinae. That Germinae takes D6+6 Wounds with no saves allowed. The first wound kills the Germinae, and the rest are lost.

There is no LOS involved though. They just suffer her wounds. She takes 9 wounds from the D hit and 4 of those wounds automatically go to the Geminae. Although, I guess she could try to LOS the initial D hit away first instead and nearly accomplish the same goal.

I was under the impression that LOS was involved, based on what was being posted. Even then I thought she had 5 Wounds. Since the Germinae don't have EW, 1 D wound will kill them, so you would only need 7 Wounds, correct?

its also only 1 wound that is being delt, the wound itself does more than just 1 wound. If a deathblow result was rolled it would go to one of the gemini and that 1 wound would do multiple wounds(from the chart) and the rest are lost. No matter what result you roll on the D table 9aside from 1 where it does no damage) it is only 1 wound but does more damage then 1 wound normally does. (god I hate D weapon debates)

Oberron wrote:
its also only 1 wound that is being delt, the wound itself does more than just 1 wound. If a deathblow result was rolled it would go to one of the gemini and that 1 wound would do multiple wounds(from the chart) and the rest are lost. No matter what result you roll on the D table 9aside from 1 where it does no damage) it is only 1 wound but does more damage then 1 wound normally does. (god I hate D weapon debates)

Your missing the point. The 1 wound that goes to Celestine becomes multiple wounds. Every Wound Celestine takes, goes instead to the Geminae first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:


I was under the impression that LOS was involved, based on what was being posted. Even then I thought she had 5 Wounds. Since the Germinae don't have EW, 1 D wound will kill them, so you would only need 7 Wounds, correct?

Yes, actually that would be correct. Any Deathblow result on Celestine would kill the unit.

Fragile wrote:

Oberron wrote:
its also only 1 wound that is being delt, the wound itself does more than just 1 wound. If a deathblow result was rolled it would go to one of the gemini and that 1 wound would do multiple wounds(from the chart) and the rest are lost. No matter what result you roll on the D table 9aside from 1 where it does no damage) it is only 1 wound but does more damage then 1 wound normally does. (god I hate D weapon debates)

Your missing the point. The 1 wound that goes to Celestine becomes multiple wounds. Every Wound Celestine takes, goes instead to the Geminae first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:


I was under the impression that LOS was involved, based on what was being posted. Even then I thought she had 5 Wounds. Since the Germinae don't have EW, 1 D wound will kill them, so you would only need 7 Wounds, correct?

Yes, actually that would be correct. Any Deathblow result on Celestine would kill the unit.

Ok so its not Look out Sir that moves but the actual wounds she suffers after she fails saves?? Crap in that case the units does get wiped by 1 death blow roll.

I'm actually inclined to agree.
And it's something I overlooked.

Since it states wounds are passed on, not hits, you would resolve the destroyer result against her then pass off wounds.

While a D hit never spreads, the way her rule is worded indicates that the wounds would however spread like normal.




On the plus side, this means the geminaes 4++ never has to be used.
Since its suffered wounds that are passed on, wouldn't Celestines 3++ be used to stop low AP attacks first?

The only way around that would be to target a geminae via precision or something like that.




And on the plus side, even though a 6 on the D would kill them, it would have to be the hit against her that was a 6.
Even then, she's got a good chance of coming back alive anyway.

So in effect you'd have to get a death blow result twice against her.
And that's providing she's not in a unit and making use of Los! anyway.

Celestine only has a 4++, but otherwise, seems accurate.

 Jackal wrote:
I'm actually inclined to agree.
And it's something I overlooked.

Since it states wounds are passed on, not hits, you would resolve the destroyer result against her then pass off wounds.

While a D hit never spreads, the way her rule is worded indicates that the wounds would however spread like normal.




On the plus side, this means the geminaes 4++ never has to be used.
Since its suffered wounds that are passed on, wouldn't Celestines 3++ be used to stop low AP attacks first?

The only way around that would be to target a geminae via precision or something like that.


.

They would be using their save if they were closest to the attack. If you had AP3, you might try to angle to get them first.

 Happyjew wrote:


I was under the impression that LOS was involved, based on what was being posted. Even then I thought she had 5 Wounds. Since the Germinae don't have EW, 1 D wound will kill them, so you would only need 7 Wounds, correct?

The think is celestine fails the save and takes the wound. It doesn´t ID her so she takes just 1 wound which is taken from a Germinae. The strength of the wound doesn´t matter when the wound is passed off as it is just a single wound that celestine has taken. So you would need 9 wounds to kill her whole unit.

 rawne2510 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


I was under the impression that LOS was involved, based on what was being posted. Even then I thought she had 5 Wounds. Since the Germinae don't have EW, 1 D wound will kill them, so you would only need 7 Wounds, correct?

The think is celestine fails the save and takes the wound. It doesn´t ID her so she takes just 1 wound which is taken from a Germinae. The strength of the wound doesn´t matter when the wound is passed off as it is just a single wound that celestine has taken. So you would need 9 wounds to kill her whole unit.

18 wounds, functionally, as she restores 2 wounds per turn and returns 1 Gemini per turn.

SJ

You mean that those are one and the same, right? Because it's Cawl who recovers his own wounds-Celestine just brings back the Geminae.

I meant in 1 shot it would be 9 not 7 wounds as the Str of the weapon isn´t taken into consideration with regards to passing the wound off.

This is why GW needs to make a distinction between wounds (failed save) and damage (number of wounds actually taken). It would clarify a LOT of rules.

Fragile wrote:

Oberron wrote:
its also only 1 wound that is being delt, the wound itself does more than just 1 wound. If a deathblow result was rolled it would go to one of the gemini and that 1 wound would do multiple wounds(from the chart) and the rest are lost. No matter what result you roll on the D table 9aside from 1 where it does no damage) it is only 1 wound but does more damage then 1 wound normally does. (god I hate D weapon debates)

Your missing the point. The 1 wound that goes to Celestine becomes multiple wounds. Every Wound Celestine takes, goes instead to the Geminae first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:


I was under the impression that LOS was involved, based on what was being posted. Even then I thought she had 5 Wounds. Since the Germinae don't have EW, 1 D wound will kill them, so you would only need 7 Wounds, correct?

Yes, actually that would be correct. Any Deathblow result on Celestine would kill the unit.

don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n the D shot only splinters into other wounds after the point of the failed save. The closest geminii take the save against the D3 result and then suffer D3 wounds when they fail. It's the same with the deathblow, it gets shunted off to the geminii before the save is rolled, the 6 ignores saves, the geminii takes D6+6 wounds, Celestine laughs at your failure. D results NEVER bleed over onto another model. Also I love how people are chiming in who don't even know her basic statline.

Divine Guardians- The Geminae Superia get a 4+ invulnerable save. Whilst at least one is alive, any wounds suffered by Celestine are resolved against the closest Gemainae Superia instead. Saint Celestine can join other units with the Geminae Superia (they all join the unit) and must all leave the unit if Celestine leaves the unit.

This is the rule we are thinking about. This doesn´t mean it is an auto LoS but if you choose to make the save on celestine and fail the wounds she suffers are automatically passed on to the germinae.

ERJAK wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Oberron wrote:
its also only 1 wound that is being delt, the wound itself does more than just 1 wound. If a deathblow result was rolled it would go to one of the gemini and that 1 wound would do multiple wounds(from the chart) and the rest are lost. No matter what result you roll on the D table 9aside from 1 where it does no damage) it is only 1 wound but does more damage then 1 wound normally does. (god I hate D weapon debates)

Your missing the point. The 1 wound that goes to Celestine becomes multiple wounds. Every Wound Celestine takes, goes instead to the Geminae first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:


I was under the impression that LOS was involved, based on what was being posted. Even then I thought she had 5 Wounds. Since the Germinae don't have EW, 1 D wound will kill them, so you would only need 7 Wounds, correct?

Yes, actually that would be correct. Any Deathblow result on Celestine would kill the unit.

don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n the D shot only splinters into other wounds after the point of the failed save. The closest geminii take the save against the D3 result and then suffer D3 wounds when they fail. It's the same with the deathblow, it gets shunted off to the geminii before the save is rolled, the 6 ignores saves, the geminii takes D6+6 wounds, Celestine laughs at your failure. D results NEVER bleed over onto another model. Also I love how people are chiming in who don't even know her basic statline.

And the point of the failed save is Celestine. Please follow along before rebuttal.