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 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
...They are still disgusting, just overpriced. Those are not mutually exclusive, imo. And you can get them down to about 60pp if you don't go overboard with upgrades. Not everyone needs a Thunder Hammer or Storm Shield, really. Still pricey.

Red Butchers are usually around 58ppm and they don't have 3++, just a 6+ FNP and are generally considered a decent unit (not crazy good, but decent). That is a more comparable unit as a 2W Terminator squad and it seems about the same.

I think FW makes you pay for the luxury of that second wound.

On review of two-Wound Terminators they tend to be approximately 10pts/model more than a roughly comparable Terminator unit with one Wound (Red Butchers v. Gorgons, Firedrakes v. normal Salamanders/Imperial Fists hammernators, Justaerin v. randomly selected Terminator unit...)

The only exception I've found is Deathshrouds, which if the character pricing for the scythes holds true (roughly equivalent to a power fist) are effectively trading all the versatility of not being a one-loadout unit for the extra wound without any change in points.

HandofMars wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
Never and always, respectively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:
so, normally I'd consider Cataphractii a bit better (2+4++ FOR DAYS) but Tartaros has it's uses. As Victor pointed out, being able to sweep is awesome, as well: Imperial fists like Tartaros since it can take stormshields as well

Tartaros does not have the option for storm shields, only Cataphract and Indomitus.

Yup, was talking about that on another post. I still stand by waiting to see what FW says, since it specifies Cataphractii as cheaper to bring one (since they already have a 4++) and that it was more expensive of "standard" terminator armour. the problem is that FW has never clarified what "standard" terminator armour was in 30k. Point in case, they say units that just list "terminator armour" can be any kind, so long as it's modeled (for example: death shroud terminators)

Standard terminator armor is Indomitus. The new Astartes book does indeed define three distinct terminator armor types, "Regular", "Tartaros", and "Cataphract". Non-standard terminator armor is also addressed by the rules. There is no ambiguity here.

I am not sure your example is incorrect, the model infers the rules you use, not the other way around. I don't think you can kitbash together a Cataphractii version of Death Shroud, since the official models are in Tartaros. It would be neat if you could, though, so you can run them with Typhon.

Deathshroud are in indomitus not tartarus.

Pretty sure its unspecified Terminator armor and depends on how you model them.

For the deathshroud? Nope terminator armour is one of the 3 options in the army list wargear and its indomitus.

Yeah that opinion is fine and dandy, but what is stated in the FAQ and under the Terminator Armor description in Wargear is;

"If a unit has the option of taking Terminator Armor but does not specify a particular pattern, such as Legion Terminator Squad entry, its pattern is that represented on the physical models used, and only a single type of Terminator Armor may be chosen for the unit when included in your army."

As the Deathshroud aren't given a specific Pattern and modeled with Tartaros Armor standard, then they have Tartaros Pattern Armor equipped.

It'd help if they'd write "Indomitus-pattern Terminator armour" down in someone's wargear entry to clarify that "Terminator armour" doesn't mean a specific pattern of armour, but as-is it's a bit vaguely defined.

Unfortunatly as is, terminator armour has an actual entry. The age of darkness army list has three terminator armour entries one simply called terminator armour and it gives you the special rules for that armour. That rule you quoted is absolutely true, however deathshroud do not have the option to take a pattern of terminator armour, they have terminator armour. That rule is for models who dont have a set pattern of terminator armour and can choose either to take it or which pattern such as command squads or legion terminator squads.

 King Amroth wrote:
Unfortunatly as is, terminator armour has an actual entry. The age of darkness army list has three terminator armour entries one simply called terminator armour and it gives you the special rules for that armour. That rule you quoted is absolutely true, however deathshroud do not have the option to take a pattern of terminator armour, they have terminator armour. That rule is for models who dont have a set pattern of terminator armour and can choose either to take it or which pattern such as command squads or legion terminator squads.

I was about to say "this is silly because it'd prevent generic Terminator squads from taking the variant armour", but then I found the footnote in their entry in the current red book that clearly states that "Terminator armour" in their wargear list means any of the given three patterns.

At time of going to press Deathshrouds are literally the only place in the game any ambiguity could exist; every other unique Terminator unit or character specifies that it's equipped with Cataphractii (almost everyone), Tartaros (Phoenix Terminators), or a unique pattern (Gorgon Terminators and Abbadon) of armour, and every generic entry (Praetor, Centurion, Legion Terminators, Command Squad) clarifies they get to pick. So the question narrows from "does 'Terminator Armour' mean Indomitus-pattern, or does it mean you get to choose?" to "can Deathshrouds choose what sort of Terminator armour they're wearing?"

Personally I'm inclined to say they're restricted to Indomitus (which really annoys me because I've got the parts in the mail to build some out of Prospero Tartaros models and spare scythes), but the distinction is marginal enough I wouldn't bat an eyelash at anyone choosing to play it the other way. (And Cataphractii armour would actually present a bit of a dilemma; do I keep my Overwatch capability with all these flamer templates, or do I get a 4++ Inv?)

(I will note that choosing to read "Terminator armour" as "Indomitus-pattern Terminator armour only" in all cases leads to the potentially hilarious conclusion that Consuls that aren't allowed Terminator armour are allowed Tartaros or Cataphractii armour, so there's a bit of ambiguity left.)

 King Amroth wrote:
Unfortunatly as is, terminator armour has an actual entry. The age of darkness army list has three terminator armour entries one simply called terminator armour and it gives you the special rules for that armour. That rule you quoted is absolutely true, however deathshroud do not have the option to take a pattern of terminator armour, they have terminator armour. That rule is for models who dont have a set pattern of terminator armour and can choose either to take it or which pattern such as command squads or legion terminator squads.

Considering the FAQ was written before the AoD Legion Army List was out, but after when the AoD Legions book was written I would say that the ruling still applies for the Deathshroud. Particularly since in the Crusade Army list Legion Terminator Squads did not have the Foot Note stating they can take Tartaros or Cataphractii. Just like the Death Shroud, Legion Terminator Squads didnt have the option to take Terminator armor either. They just had it, but are used as the example (and still are used as the example even if its made redundant by their list entry). Since the same ruling from the FAQ is used in AoD Army List, it would affect the Deathshroud now.

Are the Deathshroud models not wearing Tartaros?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Are the Deathshroud models not wearing Tartaros?

They are, so according to the book and FAQ they would be Tartaros. Though you could make your own out of Cataphractii, as long as they look different to other Cataphractii in the army.

The actual problem with all of that is the same one the imperial fists have with storm shields. The crusade army list and the istvaan legion book only has 1 addition to the terminator entry and it is cataphractii, everything else is "terminator armour" and when they updated the books they missed a few sentences and entries. Phoenix termies got updated to tartaros but deathshroud didnt, the fists entry for shields didnt get changed at all but a new termie armour entry was created "tartaros".

 King Amroth wrote:
The actual problem with all of that is the same one the imperial fists have with storm shields. The crusade army list and the istvaan legion book only has 1 addition to the terminator entry and it is cataphractii, everything else is "terminator armour" and when they updated the books they missed a few sentences and entries. Phoenix termies got updated to tartaros but deathshroud didnt, the fists entry for shields didnt get changed at all but a new termie armour entry was created "tartaros".

You could read it as "they missed a few sentences", or you could read it as "they wanted Deathshrouds to be able to choose between patterns of armour and they didn't want Tartaros Terminators to be able to use Vigil storm shields".

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 King Amroth wrote:
The actual problem with all of that is the same one the imperial fists have with storm shields. The crusade army list and the istvaan legion book only has 1 addition to the terminator entry and it is cataphractii, everything else is "terminator armour" and when they updated the books they missed a few sentences and entries. Phoenix termies got updated to tartaros but deathshroud didnt, the fists entry for shields didnt get changed at all but a new termie armour entry was created "tartaros".

You could read it as "they missed a few sentences", or you could read it as "they wanted Deathshrouds to be able to choose between patterns of armour and they didn't want Tartaros Terminators to be able to use Vigil storm shields".

I couldnt possibly read it that way, Daethshroud do not have the option of taking Terminator armour. They simply have terminator armour and the rules do not let them choose a different option to the base terminator armour, the only "options" involved in deathshroud are whether to take them, what place they have on the FOC chart, how many to take, whether they have a land raider phobos as a DT and whether you give them melta bombs.
That sentence is very clear and counts for units that can choose to take an upgrade to terminator armour or in the case of the legion terminator data slate specifically says they can choose between the three types.
I am not adverse to having that changed for them so that they can be in tartaros or even saying they can have the same three options as a legion termie squad but the rules in no way suggest that is what they can do.

For TS Termies and Sekhmet, what kind of termie armor is better?

A Praeator with Void Shield Harness and a 4 man Command Squad w/ Claws Rolling Around in a Land Raider is Pretty Scary

Seeing as
A. The Land Raider is the Toughest Non-Superheavy Tank (in terms of AV) in the game
B. 4 Lightning Claws+Sweeping Advance IS SCARY
C. The Void Shield Harness make them Immune to Most Overwatch fire
D. It will be Infiltrating (Alpha Legion my dudes)

 Vector Strike wrote:
For TS Termies and Sekhmet, what kind of termie armor is better?

Can you cause enough damage to reliably sweep? If yes, Tartaros, if no, Cata. Then the question becomes: are you game enough to go for Tartaros with Pavoni Arcan for +1 to sweep or do you want to be 2+/4++ with Raptora Arcana and cast telekinesis on 3's? The obvious choice (as far as I see it) for catas is Raptora, because psychic 2W 2+/3++ with force weapons for 55/35 ppm is no laughing matter, especially when powerfist/chainfists are 5/10 ppm respectively. If you take a full squad of 10, all with chainfists, that's 53 ppm! Down to 48ppm if you "just" take power fists.

 commander dante wrote:
A Praeator with Void Shield Harness and a 4 man Command Squad w/ Claws Rolling Around in a Land Raider is Pretty Scary

Seeing as
A. The Land Raider is the Toughest Non-Superheavy Tank (in terms of AV) in the game
B. 4 Lightning Claws+Sweeping Advance IS SCARY
C. The Void Shield Harness make them Immune to Most Overwatch fire
D. It will be Infiltrating (Alpha Legion my dudes)

Good thing the VSH is only for "fun" games and not for competitive ones.

Also, the toughest non-Superheavy is the Spartan, by a mile. More HP, Flare Shield.

This squad also would suffer against 2+ save units, especially stuff like Fire Drakes, Butchers, etc.

 commander dante wrote:
A Praeator with Void Shield Harness and a 4 man Command Squad w/ Claws Rolling Around in a Land Raider is Pretty Scary

Seeing as
A. The Land Raider is the Toughest Non-Superheavy Tank (in terms of AV) in the game
B. 4 Lightning Claws+Sweeping Advance IS SCARY
C. The Void Shield Harness make them Immune to Most Overwatch fire
D. It will be Infiltrating (Alpha Legion my dudes)

A. This is 30k. Think bigger. Think Spartan. Then you can have more than five Terminator-armoured models in it.

B. Not to Terminators. Or Invictarii. Or anything else with 2+ armour. Or which might be a vehicle. Or a T6 Cortex-bot. Consider mixing a few fists in there just in case.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
A Praeator with Void Shield Harness and a 4 man Command Squad w/ Claws Rolling Around in a Land Raider is Pretty Scary

Seeing as
A. The Land Raider is the Toughest Non-Superheavy Tank (in terms of AV) in the game
B. 4 Lightning Claws+Sweeping Advance IS SCARY
C. The Void Shield Harness make them Immune to Most Overwatch fire
D. It will be Infiltrating (Alpha Legion my dudes)

Good thing the VSH is only for "fun" games and not for competitive ones.

Also, the toughest non-Superheavy is the Spartan, by a mile. More HP, Flare Shield.

This squad also would suffer against 2+ save units, especially stuff like Fire Drakes, Butchers, etc.

I forgot that the Spartan wasnt a Super Heavy

Sure they'll suffer V 2+ saves, but who said that the rest of my army isnt equipped to deal with that?

 commander dante wrote:


This squad also would suffer against 2+ save units, especially stuff like Fire Drakes, Butchers, etc.

I forgot that the Spartan wasnt a Super Heavy

Sure they'll suffer V 2+ saves, but who said that the rest of my army isnt equipped to deal with that?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 commander dante wrote:


This squad also would suffer against 2+ save units, especially stuff like Fire Drakes, Butchers, etc.

I forgot that the Spartan wasnt a Super Heavy

Sure they'll suffer V 2+ saves, but who said that the rest of my army isnt equipped to deal with that?

-_-

Seriously? How about we don't tout the awesomeness of a unit in a vacuum and then start excusing its flaws when pointed out?

 commander dante wrote:
...Ok well in that case, according to your logic posting about ALL Primarch Deathstars is now not allowed

Funnily enough if you wander down the list of past threads I suspect you won't find very many gushing about the virtues of Primarch deathstars.

I could put Vulkan, ten Firedrakes, and a Primus Medicae in a Spartan. I don't, because that'd be close to 1,500pts for a single deathstar that is overkill for anything it can actually kill, disappears when a Destroyer weapon sneezes on it, and forces me to play most of the actual game down 1,500pts of guns, but I could.

 Drasius wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
For TS Termies and Sekhmet, what kind of termie armor is better?

Can you cause enough damage to reliably sweep? If yes, Tartaros, if no, Cata. Then the question becomes: are you game enough to go for Tartaros with Pavoni Arcan for +1 to sweep or do you want to be 2+/4++ with Raptora Arcana and cast telekinesis on 3's? The obvious choice (as far as I see it) for catas is Raptora, because psychic 2W 2+/3++ with force weapons for 55/35 ppm is no laughing matter, especially when powerfist/chainfists are 5/10 ppm respectively. If you take a full squad of 10, all with chainfists, that's 53 ppm! Down to 48ppm if you "just" take power fists.

Yeah, I'm also drifting to Raptora Cata and Levitate them around.
Now, Tartaros is more suited for melee, indeed. Pavoni or Pyrae Tartaros with Fiery Form seems nice, coming out from an assault transport

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
...Ok well in that case, according to your logic posting about ALL Primarch Deathstars is now not allowed

Funnily enough if you wander down the list of past threads I suspect you won't find very many gushing about the virtues of Primarch deathstars.

I could put Vulkan, ten Firedrakes, and a Primus Medicae in a Spartan. I don't, because that'd be close to 1,500pts for a single deathstar that is overkill for anything it can actually kill, disappears when a Destroyer weapon sneezes on it, and forces me to play most of the actual game down 1,500pts of guns, but I could.

I actually know someone who does
And then he complains that i field cheese when i put Leviathans on the Board...

 commander dante wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
...Ok well in that case, according to your logic posting about ALL Primarch Deathstars is now not allowed

Funnily enough if you wander down the list of past threads I suspect you won't find very many gushing about the virtues of Primarch deathstars.

I could put Vulkan, ten Firedrakes, and a Primus Medicae in a Spartan. I don't, because that'd be close to 1,500pts for a single deathstar that is overkill for anything it can actually kill, disappears when a Destroyer weapon sneezes on it, and forces me to play most of the actual game down 1,500pts of guns, but I could.

I actually know someone who does
And then he complains that i field cheese when i put Leviathans on the Board...

Only appropriate response to complainers who field cheese:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Only appropriate response to complainers who field cheese:

Cool. You field a fluffy infantry based legion. I'll field a fluffy IW legion with 9 Phosphex Rapiers and a Typhon. You just need to git gud, right?

 Drasius wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Only appropriate response to complainers who field cheese:

Cool. You field a fluffy infantry based legion. I'll field a fluffy IW legion with 9 Phosphex Rapiers and a Typhon. You just need to git gud, right?

You got it wrong
Hes talking about people who complain about cheese, only to field it themselves

 commander dante wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Only appropriate response to complainers who field cheese:

Cool. You field a fluffy infantry based legion. I'll field a fluffy IW legion with 9 Phosphex Rapiers and a Typhon. You just need to git gud, right?

You got it wrong
Hes talking about people who complain about cheese, only to field it themselves

Exactly that. If you bring cheese and complain about opposing cheese, then you should absolutely git gud.

 commander dante wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Only appropriate response to complainers who field cheese:

Cool. You field a fluffy infantry based legion. I'll field a fluffy IW legion with 9 Phosphex Rapiers and a Typhon. You just need to git gud, right?

You got it wrong
Hes talking about people who complain about cheese, only to field it themselves

...Since when was spending 1,500pts on a Primarch deathstar in a Spartan cheese? Are you telling me with 1,500pts to spare and no other threatening targets you don't have enough guns to deal with them?