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 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Are certain units undercosted? Yes. However, they still have a points cost assigned to them in their codex. The Eldar player is showing up with undercosted units. Not with 300+ points of extra units.

I fail to see how using heavily undercosted units is any different from getting free stuff on either a moral or practical level. On a moral level, both are allowed within the rules. On a practical level, if a Wraithknight is 100pts undercosted, that lets the Eldar player buy 100pts of other stuff. That's like getting that 100pts for free, only instead of having to take what the formation allows, the player can take whatever he wants.

Actually, there is a practical difference. It's way better to get 100pts to spend on whatever you want than it is to get 3 free Rhinos.

Also, when the power stuff is undercosted, that creates a cascade effect that allows the player to put more points into the power stuff. That is fundamentally different from the Gladius detachment, which is built around units that would get rofl-stomped in the competitive meta without the bonus transports. Even with the free transports, it's not a winning build through raw killing power, it's a winning build through table presence and objective-scoring. And, it's at an inherent disadvantage when it comes to kill point missions.

So, the Eldar player in this example is, in fact, showing up with 300+pts of extra units. It's just that he's getting them because the power units in his dex are fundamentally undercosted, rather than having his codex say, "If you use these units, you get these other units for free". The Eldar player is also free to select the best units in his dex, rather than weak ones to take advantage of a formation benefit. He's also free to spend the excess points on more of the best units in his dex, instead of being limited to fairly squishy vehicles with little in the way of offensive output. 300pts of Scatbikes he shouldn't have been able to afford if his units were appropriately priced beats 300pts of AV11 boxes any day of the week.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Are certain units undercosted? Yes. However, they still have a points cost assigned to them in their codex. The Eldar player is showing up with undercosted units. Not with 300+ points of extra units.

I fail to see how using heavily undercosted units is any different from getting free stuff on either a moral or practical level. On a moral level, both are allowed within the rules. On a practical level, if a Wraithknight is 100pts undercosted, that lets the Eldar player buy 100pts of other stuff. That's like getting that 100pts for free, only instead of having to take what the formation allows, the player can take whatever he wants.

Actually, there is a practical difference. It's way better to get 100pts to spend on whatever you want than it is to get 3 free Rhinos.

Also, when the power stuff is undercosted, that creates a cascade effect that allows the player to put more points into the power stuff. That is fundamentally different from the Gladius detachment, which is built around units that would get rofl-stomped in the competitive meta without the bonus transports. Even with the free transports, it's not a winning build through raw killing power, it's a winning build through table presence and objective-scoring. And, it's at an inherent disadvantage when it comes to kill point missions.

So, the Eldar player in this example is, in fact, showing up with 300+pts of extra units. It's just that he's getting them because the power units in his dex are fundamentally undercosted, rather than having his codex say, "If you use these units, you get these other units for free". The Eldar player is also free to select the best units in his dex, rather than weak ones to take advantage of a formation benefit. He's also free to spend the excess points on more of the best units in his dex, instead of being limited to fairly squishy vehicles with little in the way of offensive output. 300pts of Scatbikes he shouldn't have been able to afford if his units were appropriately priced beats 300pts of AV11 boxes any day of the week.

This is exactly right.

I have a funny thought experiment for you guys.

Would any Eldar players here ACTUALLY GRIPE if GW released new point costs for Wraith Knights (or any units)?

If tomorrow they released a FAQ where WKs were upped to 400 points (or whatever is fair), would Eldar players actually complain? lol

Absolutely some would.

I agree completely with Raziel.

This has always been my issue with people.
They see something that's free and scream it's broken, OP and won't play against it as they can see a set amount of free points.

Yet when something is undercosted, they glaze over it and see no issues compared to the free transports.

Doesn't matter if it's something like free transports or free rules, underpriced units etc.
It's all just as bad.

I'd happily play against the posted list here as opposed to the regular scatterbike spam with wraith knights.
I see underpriced units or huge formation rule benefits as a lot more damaging than a stack of free rhinos or razors.

And for the record, if I've gone to play a game, pickup, tournament, whatever, I'll play it.
Don't care if it's pure cheese, I won't pick and choose what games I play or who I play against.

Why?
because it's insight.
Tons of people bitch about everything they can think of, without actually playing against it.
Because something looks great on paper or in theory, doesn't mean it's as good on the table.




Also keep in mind it's the player that's the biggest issue.
The usual people who simply buy a tournament army with each new book are great fun to play.
They have paid for an army that on paper is amazing, yet their ability to actually use it let's them down.

3 eldar players locally and all 3 are the same as I posted above.
Actually struggle more against the local nid and BA player as they know what they are doing with their army.


Anyways, /rant.

Martel732 wrote:
Absolutely some would.

What would their excuse be?

 Peregrine wrote:
You're playing a 2128 point list in an 1850 point game. It's cheese.

Imagine two formations.

1. Lots o'wyches
10-20 units of wyches
All wyches may be upgraded to bloodbrides for free

2. Tons o'wyches
10-20 units of wyches
All wyches add 1 to their attack and leadership profiles.

Lots o'wyches could potentially get you 1200 free points! You could rock up to a 1850 point game with 555 extra points. That's like bringing a 2405 point list! What cheese!

Tons o'wyches is clearly garbage. Adding 1 to the attack and leadership of wyches does nothing to cure that they are terrible.

Clearly
Lot's o'wyches = Cheese
Tons o'wyches= Garbage

Coblen - think you just summed up the mentality of it all perfectly in that 1 post.

People see free and scream cheese and it's wrong.
They see free rules and that's part of the game, no issues.

Hell, that's nothing. I'm practicing for the LVO, and played against a list that gets free transports, gets to use double ultrasmurf tactics, and also gets to get out of, shoot, and back into their transports on the same turn.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Hell, that's nothing. I'm practicing for the LVO, and played against a list that gets free transports, gets to use double ultrasmurf tactics, and also gets to get out of, shoot, and back into their transports on the same turn.

Uhh. Was he running a Gladius strike force with two battle-demi companies and a stormlance along the side? Because in order to get the free transports you need double Battle-demi in the GSF, and the free transports are only for the GSF. The disembark, shoot, re-embark is the Stormlance demi-co. Only units in the storm-lance may do so. So if he had free transports that people were popping in and out of, he might be mixing his rules up. Also the double ultrasmurf tactics would only apply to those in the Battle demi-co's and the GSF as a whole (unless he is running UM ofc).

Vilehydra wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Hell, that's nothing. I'm practicing for the LVO, and played against a list that gets free transports, gets to use double ultrasmurf tactics, and also gets to get out of, shoot, and back into their transports on the same turn.

Uhh. Was he running a Gladius strike force with two battle-demi companies and a stormlance along the side? Because in order to get the free transports you need double Battle-demi in the GSF, and the free transports are only for the GSF. The disembark, shoot, re-embark is the Stormlance demi-co. Only units in the storm-lance may do so. So if he had free transports that people were popping in and out of, he might be mixing his rules up. Also the double ultrasmurf tactics would only apply to those in the Battle demi-co's and the GSF as a whole (unless he is running UM ofc).

One of the problems with the gladius is that it only allows the older Aux picks and the basic demi co. You want free transports? None of that new fancy stuff.

 coblen wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
You're playing a 2128 point list in an 1850 point game. It's cheese.

Imagine two formations.

1. Lots o'wyches
10-20 units of wyches
All wyches may be upgraded to bloodbrides for free

2. Tons o'wyches
10-20 units of wyches
All wyches add 1 to their attack and leadership profiles.

Lots o'wyches could potentially get you 1200 free points! You could rock up to a 1850 point game with 555 extra points. That's like bringing a 2405 point list! What cheese!

Tons o'wyches is clearly garbage. Adding 1 to the attack and leadership of wyches does nothing to cure that they are terrible.

Clearly
Lot's o'wyches = Cheese
Tons o'wyches= Garbage

However you have to understand that the formations that are giving free upgrades/transports are effectively combining BOTH Lots and tons o'wyches.

As terrible as Wyches may be, rocking up 555 extra points worth of them with +1 Attack and Ld is more than adequate compensation when your opponent only gets access to

Tons o'Orks

or

Tons o'Gaunts.

 Whitebeard wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Absolutely some would.

What would their excuse be?

Do they need one? Not really. People always protest nerfs. That's why I'm a proponent of making everyone as awesome as Eldar, and not making everyone as gakky as BA.

Martel732 wrote:

 Whitebeard wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Absolutely some would.

What would their excuse be?

Do they need one? Not really. People always protest nerfs. That's why I'm a proponent of making everyone as awesome as Eldar, and not making everyone as gakky as BA.

Yet you gripe about the Wulfen - or does being a proponent of better units involve complaining about them?

Because i don't have capabilities equal to them. And they are undercosted.

Martel732 wrote:
Because i don't have capabilities equal to them. And they are undercosted.

Still griping about better units.
What you should be doing is singing their praises with hopes that you get something similar for Black Rage or Red Thirst - or better yet something that doesn't look like a monkey troup.

I play a very marine centric list rather similar to OP. I bring full Battle Companies, with every unit (barring Bikes and Centurions) upgraded to ten men large.

Do I think my vehicles should be free? No. Free upgrades are wrong. I only play Formations because they are the "fluffy" organization of my army, not for a mechanical benefit. I rarely take full advantage of free transports, as most transport units in my army don't fall into the Gladuus anyway.

However, I definitely think Tactical Marines need either a recosting or something to support them - if they're such a tax that people justify free units to support them, something needs to change. If taking ten man units is such a terrible tactical idea, that needs to change.

TL;DR Free units are bad, but power armoured Space Marines need to be less of a liability.

Just le me bring 8 free looted wagons in my ork list or 8 chimera's in my inq list and we call it even.