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since we have so many free vehicals do GSC players fear them or get frustrated by them ? Are tank shocks effective ? Is it better to keep my dudes in them or get out and fire at full effect using Vehicals as speed bumps ? How do scout moves effect GSC and how to effectively use it ? Does hit and run create problems ? What ITC mission are more difficult for GSC to deal with ? What secondary missions are bad for GSC ? Should I be aggressive ?
What sort of things don't you want to see happen as a GSC player fighting a Gladius army ? both list wise and tactically ?
What sort of mistakes do you like to see a Gladius player make that I can avoid ?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/02/14 16:02:54
Activate grimoire on screamers using fateweaver if required.
Fly LoC and FW off the board.
Move screamers forward to the edge of the terrain behind magnus.
horrors move forward to 11" from void shield to stop shooters. move cultists behind to fire a few shots into a small squad. spreading as much as possible to stop any ambushes behind my lines as a priority. magnus moving to within 1" of unit 1 on the ground backed up by the cultists.
Psychic phase. Casting order priority all casters within siphon range of magnus. (No of dice used - No of syphon dice) likely 11 + D6
magnus Syphon magic with 2 dice
herald casting cursed earth if I have it with 3 dice (5 - 1)
Summon 3 flamers with paradox herald into the area magnus has left. This will be an aggressive deep strike with a possibility of perils as I want to burn a unit or at least part of a unit if I can. (10 - 2)
magnus summon chariot with 3 dice (if cursed earth is off) (13 - 3)
magnus FF WC2 into 3 using 3 dice (if i din´t cast chariot) (13 - 3)
what ever dice I might have left I might start throwing at WC1 spells with magnus to take a few models from areas that I might be able to deny you with a screamer turbo boost if I don´t want to charge the units on the left.. maybe even a single nova here as I am now trying to dominate ground to counter your position.
Warp Storm table - too unknown to evaluate
Screamer movement either charging units on left or turbo boost a unit off the table if possible and finishing 1" ffrom unit 1 and stretching out to hold back some units from charging magnus.
This gives you options.
ambush rolls as you can. There should be no ability to ambush within 3 of magnus except behind unit 1.
Does unit 1 look to charge magnus or one of the units behind him.
What has the ability to reach magnus to try to hold him in combat.
rawne2510 wrote: I don´t really understand what you are trying to get at.
It's not specific to the scenario. It's a general enquiry about Void Shields; if my dudes get within 12" of your VSG do they also get Void Shields or is it specific to friendly models? I don't own the rules for VSGs and I've only ever seen them played once, so I don't know how they work.
Ah got you. Ok the void shield isn´t an area effect that covers anyone inside the 12" bubble. Think of it as a one way barrier.
If you are outside 12" shooting a unit inside you hit the barrier.
If you are inside shooting out you ignore it.
If you are both inside you ignore it.
Take into account the effect is determined as model by model.
Just a note here. The Void Shield requires the entire unit to be inside the shield, not a model by model basis.
vercingatorix wrote: So back to general GSC tips. I'm not sure that It's worth sacrificing units to prevent Cult Ambush. Most of the time when those units come back in they won't be doing much. Unless you have summoned units that you care less about.
I think you should try to pick the important part of the map and control it. Don't try to play to our strengths of super spread out MSU. Put all the objectives next to each other and control that area. Granted it might be tougher killing the GSC because now all our bubbles will overlap but I tend to think that's a better game then trying to force awkward positioning by constantly sacrificing units.
Surely trying to deny damaged GSC units from replenishing and finishing them off next turn is viable. leaving 1 model in a unit only to see it come back at full strength of 5 again is just wasteful.
rawne2510 wrote: I don´t really understand what you are trying to get at.
It's not specific to the scenario. It's a general enquiry about Void Shields; if my dudes get within 12" of your VSG do they also get Void Shields or is it specific to friendly models? I don't own the rules for VSGs and I've only ever seen them played once, so I don't know how they work.
Ah got you. Ok the void shield isn´t an area effect that covers anyone inside the 12" bubble. Think of it as a one way barrier.
If you are outside 12" shooting a unit inside you hit the barrier.
If you are inside shooting out you ignore it.
If you are both inside you ignore it.
Take into account the effect is determined as model by model.
Just a note here. The Void Shield requires the entire unit to be inside the shield, not a model by model basis.
Slight debate on what you are talking about there is that if 5 models are outside and 5 inside I start taking wounds off a unit unit I hit the barrier then all bolter wounds after the first 5 are wasted as you can´t damage the barrier even if you caused 7 wounds that I failed saves on.
I meant for shooting unit. If 3 marines are inside and 2 are outside then only 3 bolters would be able to do any damage.
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zedsdead wrote: since we have so many free vehicals do GSC players fear them or get frustrated by them ? Are tank shocks effective ? Is it better to keep my dudes in them or get out and fire at full effect using Vehicals as speed bumps ? How do scout moves effect GSC and how to effectively use it ? Does hit and run create problems ? What ITC mission are more difficult for GSC to deal with ? What secondary missions are bad for GSC ? Should I be aggressive ?
What sort of things don't you want to see happen as a GSC player fighting a Gladius army ? both list wise and tactically ?
What sort of mistakes do you like to see a Gladius player make that I can avoid ?
Grav against GSC isn´t effective.
Most GSC units have the ability to pop rhino/RB and some DP depending what they are give as gear.
Would expect H&R to be good if the marine unit survived their charge to get away and shoot them (does mean that 1 if you roll high on H&R you won´t get back in range to stop them going into reserve next turn).
Not actually sure about scout moves. I think GSC ambush happens before scout so very unlikely you would be able to scout move except to move away from them (there is a possibility to deny charges from them if they have 1st turn)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/14 16:21:13
zedsdead wrote: since we have so many free vehicals do GSC players fear them or get frustrated by them ? Are tank shocks effective ? Is it better to keep my dudes in them or get out and fire at full effect using Vehicals as speed bumps ? How do scout moves effect GSC and how to effectively use it ? Does hit and run create problems ? What ITC mission are more difficult for GSC to deal with ? What secondary missions are bad for GSC ? Should I be aggressive ?
What sort of things don't you want to see happen as a GSC player fighting a Gladius army ? both list wise and tactically ?
What sort of mistakes do you like to see a Gladius player make that I can avoid ?
Look on topic note!
Let's see if I can answer this.
since we have so many free vehicals do GSC players fear them or get frustrated by them ?
-Well, it depends on how well you use them! I much prefer dealing with drop pods than razors and razors over rhinos.
Drop pods let me get at the guys inside the quicketst, razorbacks let me assault without overwatch, rhinos are the worst because I have to go through two rounds of overwatch.
The most frustrated I was wiith a rhino that refused to die and kept driving around preventing me from going back into reserves. I killed it eventually but it certainly caused more head aches than my opponent even realized he was causing!
-Are tank shocks effective?
Yes, though not for leadership since most of my army is fearless or ld 9 or 10. Still, things can happen. How I would use them is to group up GSC models so you can huck grenades at them. Grenades are actually kind of brutal on grouped acolytes.
-Is it better to keep my dudes in them or get out and fire at full effect using Vehicals as speed bumps?
This is tough, ideally you would hope out, rapid fire everything then turbo the tanks in the way to block a cult ambush roll or other attacks. However, I would say this is an edge case and normally staying in your vehicle is the best bet. Granted, by turn 2 I could have as many as 10 24 inch lascannons sitting in the middle of the map plinking away at you and by far the worst thing would be for you to lose your ride and can pinned. Chances are I won't be trying to kill you I'll just be shaking all your vehicles so that the tank and guys inside stop shooting me. So I don't have any advice for this, I would say get out when you're not likely to be retaliated against and stay inside otherwise.
Unless you're a lions blade in which do whatever the hell you want, I basically can't hurt you.
-How do scout moves effect GSC and how to effectively use it ?
Scout moving is fantastic against GSC IF you don't want to play them and feel like auto losing. For real though, if the GSC player deploys aggressively and you declare scout you can't scout within 12 inches of an enemy model. So chances are you can't actually deploy anywhere, including where you're currently deployed. So this would make you either count as destroyed or go back in reserves. I would not suggest taking the risk. I've never been enough of a jerk to force a TO to make that choice on an opponent who declared scout when he can't legally be deployed anywhere. I suppose you could do a weird beta strike by forcing me to deal with all your units going back in reserves? I don't really know. You could use it to get closer if I deploy for a beta strike but unless you brought thunderfires I'll probably deploy close up and bank on shrouding to keep me safe.
Does hit and run create problems ?
Yes, When I play my friends warp spiders and charge a 5 man squad with 5-10 acolytes every time he's gotten away with his exarch on 1-2 wounds and stopped me from killing a unit that turn. I've never played against white scars battle company but I imagine it's similar results. leave 1-2 marines alive who then run off and rapid fire the rest of the unit.
- What ITC mission are more difficult for GSC to deal with ?
Don't have enough experience but I don't think it will matter as we'll be getting new missions soon! Hopefully one's using nova Tertiary and secondaries. I think GSC will do better with NOVA style missions. It seems odd to say but I think GSC will actually do well with the kp tertiary because they can deny kill points on 1 or 2 turns pretty easily by going into reserves.
-Should I be aggressive ?
I don't think so. Secure a corner and push from there. I don't even know if I"d be aggressive with my drop pods. My blobs of neophytes just love popping up and rapid firing the marines and charging the pod to contest the objective until some rending guys get around to kill it.
The thing that hurts GSC is the counter attack. We come in wipe out what we hit pretty effectively and then lose our stuff to what's behind. If you don't have anything behind then you'll get tabled and wonder how GSC is even allowed. I had a unit of 20 acolytes with a primus that murdered with rends alone tiggy, coteaz, and three thunderfires. Then it proceeded to get picked apart by 3 rhinos just tank shocking it and throwing grenades out the hatch.
Tactical nightmare game: GSC army with subterranean whatever against a Ynnari Warhost will lots of Soulburst action
Neither player would know what was about to happen unit it happens.
zedsdead wrote: since we have so many free vehicals do GSC players fear them or get frustrated by them ?
Not "fear" exactly, but Rhino rush is a bit of a pain to deal with if you can't plonk vehicles from range.
Rhino rush armies force me to assault the tanks. That's not an issue because my dudes can all kill tanks in melee, and I have enough of a footprint to ensure Emergency Disebarkations. It does however mean I have two layers of things to cut through before I can RttS and replenish my casualties - and both layers can Overwatch at me with bolters (because the dudes in the Rhinos can fire Overwatch when I charge their tank), which is an issue - not a huge issue, but still an issue. It also leaves me sitting in the open for a turn after the tanks are smashed, which is exactly where I don't want to be with bolters everywhere.
On the whole I'd say Rhino rush Marines are one of the more difficult opponents I've faced with my GSC. My main experience against them comes from my buddy's White Scars grav-spam Rhino Rush army, which has Servo Skulls to keep me off his case in the early game and a Khan Biker Command Squad that's a mightmare to try and cut through thanks to FNP and T5.
Are tank shocks effective ?
Yes and no.
The "no" first. Patriarchs emit Fearless B.O 12" around them so it's not hard to avoid the morale problems they'd usually cause. You could Tank Shock any Maelstrom-grabbing Acolytes easily enough, but they end up Falling Back into Fearless bubbles and rarely end up off the board. Also, if your Tank Shock hits some Claw-Morphs (or Aberrants, though few people use them) you can end up taking a hit.
The "yes" comes if you have lots of Templates or Blasts. As a GSC player I don't want to get Tank Shocked into big clumps while there's a Thunderfire Cannon on the table. That would be very bad indeed.
Is it better to keep my dudes in them or get out and fire at full effect using Vehicals as speed bumps ?
GSC are unlikely to have the tools to kill tanks at range, so staying in keeps your dudes safe from assault by Ambushers - but the tanks will almost certainly die when they're charged (20-40 S4 Rending attacks against rear AV10) and GSC have both the board presence to force Emergency Disembarkations and the mobility to pull it off.
If you get out you can fire to full effect with your bolters, but it leaves them open to assault. This sounds bad at first - nobody wants to get hit with 40+ S4/5 Rending attacks - but Marines are pretty resistant to the usual gribblings GSC deliver.
How do scout moves effect GSC and how to effectively use it ?
They don't particularly. It's difficult to use Scout moves effectively against GSC because my dudes can all Infiltrate and deploy by Cult Ambush, so I can land within 3-9" of your models and henc eblock Scouting. The way my buddy gets his off is to use Servo Skulls to keep me away from his units, then just Scout into the Servo Skull bubble.
Another thing he tends to do with Scouts - as in actual Space Marine Scouts - is Outflank them. I sometimes leave a Magus with Neophytes sitting in my backfield to Summon stuff, and a Scout squad with bolters outflanking into them can tear them up a treat.
Does hit and run create problems ?
It can do. As a rule GSC want to be in close combat constantly, especially against bolter armies, so anything that can unlock squads so they can be shot at with bolters is bad news for me. Generally Marines unlock by losing combat, making their fall back roll, then regrouping next turn. If you add squads that can tank the Rending they'll get hit with **and** Hit and Run you could use those to whittle down HQ wound counter squads and blow up the ICs, which leaves me in a bad place because my ICs buff my army.
What ITC mission are more difficult for GSC to deal with ? What secondary missions are bad for GSC ?
Anything with Kill Points as a scoring mechanic. My army has a lot of units. Those units are easy to kill. KP are therefore a major pain for me to deal with, and I haven't really found a good way to win those missions. Constant RttS of everything that's even remotely damaged can help extend a squad's life beyond reasonable limits, but that's very difficult to achieve against Rhino Rush Marines because of the huge board footprint created by so many tanks with dudes inside. Not to mention all the gak falling from the sky and dudes Outflanking all over the place.
Should I be aggressive ?
GSC don't have a "backfield" to push into nor anchor units to target, so aggression isn't really the word. You need to keep your army active, because the more static you are the more table I get to control. Don't try to "beat" Cult Ambush - accept it's going to happen and make sure your units are supporting each other so when the hammer falls, you can mount a response.
What sort of things don't you want to see happen as a GSC player fighting a Gladius army ? both list wise and tactically ?
The more you spend on wargear, the less you spend on bolters, so I like to see lots of silly "close combat" squads with wargear out the wazoo that I can tie down and kill or control easily. What I don't want to see are lots of basic dudes with bolters. Basic Marines are a nightmare to contend with. Scouts with bolters likewise.
Tactically I want you to try and run your units as far from each other as possible. Basic Marines are tough to deal with en masse, but a squad or a Rhino at a time I can pick apart easily. If I can pull my buddy's army to the corners of the table and spread it out, I have a much easier time of things. If he sees it coming and stays solid, I struggle.
What sort of mistakes do you like to see a Gladius player make that I can avoid ?
Try and avoid close combat with the GSC if at all possible. It's not as deadly for Marines as it is for other armies, but it's where the GSC player wants to be at all times. Don't let him lock his squads up to escape your shooting. Force him to charge your tanks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/14 17:09:01
Slight debate on what you are talking about there is that if 5 models are outside and 5 inside I start taking wounds off a unit unit I hit the barrier then all bolter wounds after the first 5 are wasted as you can´t damage the barrier even if you caused 7 wounds that I failed saves on.
I meant for shooting unit. If 3 marines are inside and 2 are outside then only 3 bolters would be able to do any damage.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/14 17:29:01
zedsdead wrote: vercingatorix/ BBAP.....That's what I call solid Tactical advice ! thanks...
Totally forgot about how devestating Grenades can be against grouped up units.
I also have a Gladius list that can run 1 or 2 Ironclads in it. How does GSC do againt Ironclads. Flamers and possibly hurricane bolters.
Glad to help! Also good to see we both said similar things.
I would not rely on Iron clads as a solid anti GSC army list counter. To reference BBAP, that's like 10 more bolter marines I don't have to deal with.
We have a unit called metamorphs which most GSC players take at least 1-2, possibly more, it can take strength 6 rending with very little work. They'll wreck your ironclads pretty easily.
Also, we have a very easy way to hand out furious charge with a bubble or +1 strength and rage with a psychic power.
Strength 5 rending is still plenty dangerous to ironclads.
It'll be annoying losing a few to overwatch or shooting but chances are your 100+ point model is bringing about 3-8, 8 point models with him.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Go back to all my posts and look them over, people like you and Red Corsair likes to twist other people's words.
I've represented faithfully every argument you've made and responded to it in detail more than once. That's not "twisting" anything.
My whole argument was that GSC players will risk losing large amount of their army by doing so. THUS may not have much left by turn 4 and 5 to continue successfully contesting/controlling relic.
Right - and it's a bum argument for reasons I've laid out several times now. Here they are again for the sake of exhaustion.
You don't understand how GSC function as an army if you think "risking a large amount of models" is a thing that worries GSC players. Sixty models is less than half of my army. Your shooting on turn one is unlikely to kill even half of that. You keep insisting that the GSC player should play the hiding game because you think your shooting is scary. Your shooting isn't scary, and playing the hiding game allows you to control the midfield right away, which means the GSC player is chasing the game and is going to have a difficult time doing so. At this point I think you're deliberately trying to feed GSC players bad advice for some reason. Either that or you don't understand the army, and hence have no business telling people what it should do in the face of Nipple Magic.
You don't understand the rules for shooting if you think a 9" Nova will blow up a 30x18 inch brick of dudes in one turn. If you land at the side of a 15-inch brick and roll up a Strength 6 Assault 12 Nova, and all 12 hits wound, you'll kill 6 dudes max. The rest of the models are 10+ inches away from you. If you land up front you'll kill the first two units and the first rank of the second units, then nothing more. In either case it's a thirty model maximum from Novas on turn one, even if all five of your psykers get the Nova **and** they all land S4+ with plenty of hits. That's best-case. The less Novas you have, the more Denials will hurt you and the less models they'll kill.
"But but but muh beams and witchfires!" - I get cover against those, and FNP against some of them.
I can stop you controlling the centre like you wanted to originally. I can stop your shooting having the dramatic effect you think it will, both by positioning my models and by using my own dice to DTW. I have enough dudes on the table to hold you off for two turns until the rest of my Ambush arrives back from reserve, at which point I can eat your gakky ground units and then you have an even smaller footprint and are even less capable of denying RttS.
While I'm doing all this I have four CAD Acolyte 5-mans leaping onto flags all over the board and then RttSing freely, because your army is too small to fight my main body of troops **and** babysit the Maelstrom objectives. You don't seem to grasp how small your army's footprint actually is, and how quickly I can cut through all of your ground units bar your Screamers (assuming the Grimoire falls for you).
You need to Summon. Magnus is not enough to muscle out a win for you..
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shogun wrote: simple: thats the only units I got for summoning. At the second turn I wanted the 4 rock saw unit so that I could drop them near Magnus and start sawing into him. If I got more neophytes then I would go for them but thats not the case (yet..).
I thought so. The perennial problem of Summoning armies - having dudes on hand to Summon.
You keep thinking that buddy, hopefully you will get a rude awakening when you face one of the GT winning Magnus army.
@shogun, ok I'm only going to look at the your newest and latest ambush deployment pic since you finally smarten up and didn't stack too many unit closer together than the previous 2 or 3 deployments.
So you assumed I didn't win the roll off... AND I failed to seize even with Omniscience Oracle re-roll. And you even roll 3 units with 6s for ambush. WOW everything is going good for you so far, let me guess you also night fight right? So I see 1 neophyte unit with magus and 2 other units roll 6s.
Now please kindly circle where is the magus and his unit rolling the 6, and the 2 patriarchs in this pic. I do see the iconward guy all the way in the back.
Now let me roll my psychic powers.
Fatey: Right head(cursed earth, flame breath, prescience), LH (summoning, shriek, iron arm)
LoC: Bolt of Tz, Tz firestorm, boon of flame
Herald: Sacrifice, Dark flame, incursion
Horrors( not gonna roll, they probably gonna die)
Sorcerer: Treason of Tz
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/14 19:44:30
Lol what GT winning Magnus army? Some local 3 round RTT? That's ignoring the fact your argument is invalid anyway. I mean crap fellas, he declared some god level list is at play, end the discussion.
His deployment is virtually the same as the others, I just checked, it's super easy since he color codes his bases, but nice try at a baseless accusation again. Oh and another goal post shift. Funny how every time he shuts you down you go back to some minuscule detail to gripe about.
Oh and also there you go again saying his rolling is above average, 3 6's is not that much considering his list is rolling 18 dice for cult ambush, it's actually bang on the average according to most elementary schools lol.
He even noted his list would not play you the same BTW without winning the roll off, that's literally one of the first things he addressed and you ignored. This is why you have been accused of moving the goal post. Your doing it again now, you lost the debate on the terms it was initiated, so now your moving the posts and crying foul. Btw, who is making assumptions now assuming yourself will win the roll off or that you will seize, even with a reroll you do realize the odds are against you seizing right? Glass houses and all, you know the saying.
Red Corsair wrote: Lol what GT winning Magnus army? Some local 3 round RTT? That's ignoring the fact your argument is invalid anyway. I mean crap fellas, he declared some god level list is at play, end the discussion.
His deployment is virtually the same as the others, I just checked, it's super easy since he color codes his bases, but nice try at a baseless accusation again. Oh and another goal post shift. Funny how every time he shuts you down you go back to some minuscule detail to gripe about.
Oh and also there you go again saying his rolling is above average, 3 6's is not that much considering his list is rolling 18 dice for cult ambush, it's actually bang on the average according to most elementary schools lol.
He even noted his list would not play you the same BTW without winning the roll off, that's literally one of the first things he addressed and you ignored. This is why you have been accused of moving the goal post. Your doing it again now, you lost the debate on the terms it was initiated, so now your moving the posts and crying foul. Btw, who is making assumptions now assuming yourself will win the roll off or that you will seize, even with a reroll you do realize the odds are against you seizing right? Glass houses and all, you know the saying.
Go look at the top 8 LVO lists and Nick Nanavati's list.
LOL again go back and look at my posts and stop trolling. So if I change tactics/courses of actions base on how he deploys and maneuvers, I'm changing goal posts? If he roll crap on the ambush table and he admits that he will use a complete different tactic which he hasn't specify its reliability so he is changing the goal post too now?
I don't assume I will get first turn or if I would seize with a re-roll. But so far 70% shogun and BBAP's argument (like most GSC players) is assuming they will get first turn, having summoning, night fight, and rolling decent on the ambush table. And at the same time they are banking on if Daemons rolls crap on the psychic phase, failing grim twice, periling and failing grounding checks and etc.
Now if someone else assumes, you go bash them? What if Daemons rolls above average? GSC fails to deny both Novas and Daemons roll average for both strength and # of hits? Daesmon throw 18-20 dices and deny GSC summoning? Bunch of GSC units fails warp flame test and also gets hit by Soulblaze? If GSC player rolls crap on the ambush table and decides to play the hiding game, what will they do to prevent a Daemon player from dominating the center and summoning crap loads of Daemonettes and chariots?
Like I say in the beginning, I DONT like to play the assumption game, but so far thats all it is in most their posts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/14 23:29:24
I see Magnus armies losing a bunch of games to dudes with more models. I'm not sure what to make of that.
Oh wait, I know exactly what to make of that.
I don't assume I will get first turn or if I would seize with a re-roll. But so far 70% shogun and BBAP's argument (like most GSC players) is assuming they will get first turn, having summoning, night fight, and rolling decent on the ambush table. And at the same time they are banking on if Daemons rolls crap on the psychic phase, failing grim twice, periling and failing grounding checks and etc.
Every single one of my posts has always assumed the absolute best case scenario for the Daemons player. You get first turn, deploy your FMC forward, I fail to Seize, your Novas roll S:6 Assault 12, etc etc. Your anti-Genestealer tactic sucks hard even with this heavy tailwind.
In a case where the GSC player is going first you'd deploy differently. I wouldn't. The net result would be exactly the same, except my line would be 6" further forward at the start of your turn 1 and your options for Swooping would be even more limited. I might even have some 6s that can charge you.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, read the things you're responding to instead of getting all triggered and salty because I'm not scared of your special snowflake Daemon primarch.
What if Daemons rolls above average? GSC fails to deny both Novas and Daemons roll average for both strength and # of hits?
In that scenario you're still too far away to wipe squads with the Nova, and can't hit more than maybe 3-4 units at a time. That's the point of the brick. You're killing max 30 dudes with your Novas assuming you roll five of them and they all come up Milhouse.
Then you open up with whatever else and I get cover against it. Yawn.
Daesmon throw 18-20 dices and deny GSC summoning?
This has been explained to you repeatedly. Summoning is a bonus for GSC.
Bunch of GSC units fails warp flame test and also gets hit by Soulblaze?
"Bunch" = 3-4. That happens, those units die, and you get to pretend you've completed a mighty feat by killing some T3 5+ guys, which you seem to think is an impressive accomplishment. Your army is still not in midfield on turn one and will be slightly farther forward when the Ambushers come back on turn two. That's not a game-winning position.
If GSC player rolls crap on the ambush table and decides to play the hiding game, what will they do to prevent a Daemon player from dominating the center and summoning crap loads of Daemonettes and chariots?
If all my Ambushes come up 1-2 I'd deploy a few units in corners to RttS, deploy 90-odd facing into midfield, then walk up on you and plant my dudes in a big circle so you couldn't summon anything near them. I can still keep you from Novaing anything I don't want you to Nova and I can still have a lot of bodies in midfield quickly, because a 1 result allows me to enter from any point on the board edge.
If the GSC player decides to play the hiding game he will have a very difficult time in this scenario. It's senseless to do that because your army isn't doing enough damage every turn to make hiding worthwhile.
Like I say in the beginning, I DONT like to play the assumption game, but so far thats all it is in most their posts.
You're assuming you know how GSC work when every reply you post is further evidence that you have no idea what you're talking about. You've done that since your first reply to this thread.
I see Magnus armies losing a bunch of games to dudes with more models. I'm not sure what to make of that.
Oh wait, I know exactly what to make of that.
I don't assume I will get first turn or if I would seize with a re-roll. But so far 70% shogun and BBAP's argument (like most GSC players) is assuming they will get first turn, having summoning, night fight, and rolling decent on the ambush table. And at the same time they are banking on if Daemons rolls crap on the psychic phase, failing grim twice, periling and failing grounding checks and etc.
Every single one of my posts has always assumed the absolute best case scenario for the Daemons player. You get first turn, deploy your FMC forward, I fail to Seize, your Novas roll S:6 Assault 12, etc etc. Your anti-Genestealer tactic sucks hard even with this heavy tailwind.
In a case where the GSC player is going first you'd deploy differently. I wouldn't. The net result would be exactly the same, except my line would be 6" further forward at the start of your turn 1 and your options for Swooping would be even more limited. I might even have some 6s that can charge you.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, read the things you're responding to instead of getting all triggered and salty because I'm not scared of your special snowflake Daemon primarch.
What if Daemons rolls above average? GSC fails to deny both Novas and Daemons roll average for both strength and # of hits?
In that scenario you're still too far away to wipe squads with the Nova, and can't hit more than maybe 3-4 units at a time. That's the point of the brick. You're killing max 30 dudes with your Novas assuming you roll five of them and they all come up Milhouse.
Then you open up with whatever else and I get cover against it. Yawn.
Daesmon throw 18-20 dices and deny GSC summoning?
This has been explained to you repeatedly. Summoning is a bonus for GSC.
Bunch of GSC units fails warp flame test and also gets hit by Soulblaze?
"Bunch" = 3-4. That happens, those units die, and you get to pretend you've completed a mighty feat by killing some T3 5+ guys, which you seem to think is an impressive accomplishment. Your army is still not in midfield on turn one and will be slightly farther forward when the Ambushers come back on turn two. That's not a game-winning position.
If GSC player rolls crap on the ambush table and decides to play the hiding game, what will they do to prevent a Daemon player from dominating the center and summoning crap loads of Daemonettes and chariots?
If all my Ambushes come up 1-2 I'd deploy a few units in corners to RttS, deploy 90-odd facing into midfield, then walk up on you and plant my dudes in a big circle so you couldn't summon anything near them. I can still keep you from Novaing anything I don't want you to Nova and I can still have a lot of bodies in midfield quickly, because a 1 result allows me to enter from any point on the board edge.
If the GSC player decides to play the hiding game he will have a very difficult time in this scenario. It's senseless to do that because your army isn't doing enough damage every turn to make hiding worthwhile.
Like I say in the beginning, I DONT like to play the assumption game, but so far thats all it is in most their posts.
You're assuming you know how GSC work when every reply you post is further evidence that you have no idea what you're talking about. You've done that since your first reply to this thread.
Ok maybe its shogun who is assuming more than you. But regardless going back to your posts, its basically a back and worth argument saying daemons can't hurt GSC enough for GSC to care. You claim I don't understand GSC, sure whatever you say buddy.
Anyways I'm just going use shogun's latest pic to estimate the 9" nova bubble, could be slightly bigger or smaller.
Seems to me like it'll hit more than 3-4 small units? Base on AVERAGE rolls, do you realize how devastating that kind of coverage will do to all those GSC models? You going to assume that GSC will stop both NOVAs now? Or that I might roll crap for the S of the Nova or the # of its?
So you gonna say that you play differently than shogun and that your list is different (better) than his?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/15 01:58:02
Go look at the top 8 LVO lists and Nick Nanavati's list.
Couple of things here.
1. Two of the top 8 had Magnus and exactly zero won the thing. Remember when you said GT winning Magnus list? But that's another attempt at a goal post move.
2. Even had one of those players taken it, you do realize how flawed the LVO is right? The average top game didn't make it past turn 4 that I am aware of. That makes for fundamentally flawed data, in fact it is mostly useless. Imagine if every game in the 2017 NBA playoff barely made it to half time? Not knocking the players here, but the major distinction needs to be made between knowing how to beat a list in a full random game length format and knowing how to run the clock against certain builds and beating the format.
3. I hear this tired invalid stance far too often. I hear that great players repeatedly make the top because they are so great and not because of the list. Then people parrot about how those same players are playing lists that are unbeatable. You can't have it both ways, and for the record Sean Nayden blows your theory out the door since he plays "bad" units and made it to the finals for the 3rd straight year.
So maybe make your own argument and stop posting from fake authority using other players names and results.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/15 03:40:43
Go look at the top 8 LVO lists and Nick Nanavati's list.
Couple of things here.
1. Two of the top 8 had Magnus and exactly zero won the thing. Remember when you said GT winning Magnus list? But that's another attempt at a goal post move.
2. Even had one of those players taken it, you do realize how flawed the LVO is right? The average top game didn't make it past turn 4 that I am aware of. That makes for fundamentally flawed data, in fact it is mostly useless. Imagine if every game in the 2017 NBA playoff barely made it to half time? Not knocking the players here, but the major distinction needs to be made between knowing how to beat a list in a full random game length format and knowing how to run the clock against certain builds and beating the format.
3. I hear this tired invalid stance far too often. I hear that great players repeatedly make the top because they are so great and not because of the list. Then people parrot about how those same players are playing lists that are unbeatable. You can't have it both ways, and for the record Sean Nayden blows your theory out the door since he plays "bad" units and made it to the finals for the 3rd straight year.
So maybe make your own argument and stop posting from fake authority using other players names and results.
Oh I'm sorry red troll, if you want to be technical about then yes only nick is confirmed to win a GT. Top 8 in one of the biggest GT in the world is not comparable to winning a regional 50-60 person GT right?
Obviously you missed my point, those 3 Magnus players are most likely better players than all of us here, I don't expect BBAP to play those people since they live in another continent. Me and BBAP will not agree with each other's claims, so I recommend him to find someone in his area that runs similar caliber Magnus list who is also a decent player.
I already played a GSC list(insurrection + Nid CAD for 2 flyrants), and it was a easy win. Mission was big gun never tire, I had first turn and deployed everything towards the middle near most of the objectives, no bubble wrap, He rolled only one 6 on ambush and failed to seize. Whole game I just kept summoning chariots and using nova and templates to flame his units off of objectives. His 20 man first curse did lock my screamer star for the whole game. By turn 5, I was up on maelstrom and wiped out 80% of his GSC units and he don't have nothing obsec to win primary.
I would love to play a GSC only msu army, since BBAP claim that I will struggle. I'm still waiting for shogun to come back and answer my question on his picture deployment.
Regardless THIS thread is a anti-GSC thread, so don't try to use your unfounded goal moving accusation on me when you contributed nothing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/15 05:46:59
Slight debate on what you are talking about there is that if 5 models are outside and 5 inside I start taking wounds off a unit unit I hit the barrier then all bolter wounds after the first 5 are wasted as you can´t damage the barrier even if you caused 7 wounds that I failed saves on.
For some reason my first post didnt come out right. But this line is incorrect. The entire unit must be within the VSG range or none of the models get the effect.
Q: The coverage range of the Void Shield Generators’ void
shields is 12". If a unit is not entirely within the 12" range,
does it still benefit from the Projected Void Shield special rule?
A: No.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Ok maybe its shogun who is assuming more than you. But regardless going back to your posts, its basically a back and worth argument saying daemons can't hurt GSC enough for GSC to care. You claim I don't understand GSC, sure whatever you say buddy.
You're banging on about "risking a large number of models" as though that's somehow disadvantageous. That's life for GSC. The dudes are all T3 5+, they're at risk every second they're on the table. It's why they cost 5-11pts per head. There is no way to prevent them dying. You have to make sure they die properly.
Anyways I'm just going use shogun's latest pic to estimate the 9" nova bubble, could be slightly bigger or smaller.
We're talking about deployment, and what happens to my brick in midfield on the first game turn if you go first. Shogun's photo is of a game in progress. If you want to talk about shogun's photos, talk to shogun about them.
Also the thing we're discussing can be calculated. There's no need for estimation. Here goes.
Spoiler:
Let's assume you have Novas on all five of your psykers and you roll Strength 6 Assault 12 for all of them, and that all of them go off. Let's also assume I roll no 6s and have to rely on results 3-5 to build the brick, and my Purestrains aren't in there so it's all T3 5+ dudes. I can't Seize for whatever reason, so you position your psykers at the edge of your DZ - that allows for optimal positioning around the brick to hit as many models as possible. You also get a 1 for your Warp Charge - that means you only get 18 dice, but I only have 13. Every psyker gets a single WC to make their Nova and manages it - I forget to Deny and they all go off.
For a psyker sitting at the side of the brick: 1"+1"+2"+1"+2"+1"+2" = 10". The first 1" is your separation from my first model, then 1" for the model's base, then 2" gap to the next model, etc etc. If you're at the side of the brick your Nova hits six models in the squad you're next to, plus five each in the squads to the front and back. With one FMC on each side of the brick that's 16 models twice, so 32 models total.
From the front: 1"+1"+2"=4". That's your separation from the first model, the size of its base, and its separation from the next rank. From the centre line of a 5x2 ranked squad you can hit all 10 models in the first unit, two models in the adjacent unit in the front row, and four models in the front rank of the second row. That's 16 models in total. Three psykers in front of the brick means 3*16 = 48 models.
Altogether you can Nova 80 models on turn one... right?
No.
You start with 80 hits in range. The first Nova takes out 16 models. The second takes out 16 models. Regardless of which psykers go first, by the third Nova you end up with 8 models in range, then another 8 models in range of the fourth. The fifth is all but useless, although if you position it right (i.e. at the centre of the brick's front row) you can land a single hit on a squad in b2b with the Relic.
That's a maximum of 39 models dead out of 70. Two squads are wiped, two are down to a final guy, and five need to take Warpflame tests. We'll say they fail and all of them get 3 extra wounds. That means four squads wiped, two down to 2 dudes, plus the Relic squad down to 6 plus a Patriarch.
In total you've killed 54 models out of 70. Hooray for Nipple-Novas, right? Right, but remember that this is the absolute **best case scenario** for you - and you've achieved nothing but killing some guys. I don't care that you killed some guys. I have a lot of guys. You've achieved nothing. You're not in control of midfield. You're not in control of the Relic. You can Boost forward with the Screamer "star" to deny RttS to units I wasn't going to remove anyway, but I still have a Patriarch in b2b with the Relic so you can't sit on it. Maybe you witchfire at the Patriarch and his squad after you've Nova'd - I'd get cover in that case. Maybe you Summon stuff. Whatever.
This is the best case scenario. You're rolling not just above average, but impossibly so. Every dice is coming up 6 - and I'm still in control of the middle. Now extrapolate from this to a more average case, where you have less than five Novas, I'm rolling DTW and you're having to compensate, your dudes aren't optimally positioned to hit max models because you have to bubblewrap them in case I Seizeetc etc. You're killing maybe 30 dudes in your first turn, and not only do I have my dudes on the Relic, I still have the best part of my brick intact so I can reform my lines.
You're also going first here. In a case where I'm going first I can push my army forward into yours, cut down your Swooping lanes, potentially get charges into your units, and still have a handful of Ambushers to come in next turn and cause trouble.
Seems to me like it'll hit more than 3-4 small units? Base on AVERAGE rolls, do you realize how devastating that kind of coverage will do to all those GSC models?
I realise it will kill a lot of guys. Do you remember what I've said like eight times now? You will kill some guys. I don't care that you killed some guys. I have lots of guys. "Devastating" is relative. Losing 30-40 models is "devastating" for Marines. For GSC it's just how things go.
You going to assume that GSC will stop both NOVAs now? Or that I might roll crap for the S of the Nova or the # of its?
I haven't assumed anything of the sort so far - why would you think I'd start now? I give your dudes the best case scenario and your arguments are still ass.
Nobody cares about your "seems". The numbers tell the story.
So you gonna say that you play differently than shogun and that your list is different (better) than his?
Not at all - quite the opposite, in fact. His army is better set up than mine to take Nova hits, and I'm in the middle of retooling my list as a result of this discussion. I do play differently than he does, but why that's relevant I don't know. I mentioned it in passing a couple of replies back to illustrate a point - namely that deploying aggressively to keep you out of the middle is a reasonable way to approach this specific scenario.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/15 05:39:11
Go look at the top 8 LVO lists and Nick Nanavati's list.
Couple of things here.
1. Two of the top 8 had Magnus and exactly zero won the thing. Remember when you said GT winning Magnus list? But that's another attempt at a goal post move.
2. Even had one of those players taken it, you do realize how flawed the LVO is right? The average top game didn't make it past turn 4 that I am aware of. That makes for fundamentally flawed data, in fact it is mostly useless. Imagine if every game in the 2017 NBA playoff barely made it to half time? Not knocking the players here, but the major distinction needs to be made between knowing how to beat a list in a full random game length format and knowing how to run the clock against certain builds and beating the format.
3. I hear this tired invalid stance far too often. I hear that great players repeatedly make the top because they are so great and not because of the list. Then people parrot about how those same players are playing lists that are unbeatable. You can't have it both ways, and for the record Sean Nayden blows your theory out the door since he plays "bad" units and made it to the finals for the 3rd straight year.
So maybe make your own argument and stop posting from fake authority using other players names and results.
Oh I'm sorry red troll, if you want to be technical about then yes only nick is confirmed to win a GT. Top 8 in one of the biggest GT in the world is not comparable to winning a regional 50-60 person GT right?
Obviously you missed my point, those 3 Magnus players are most likely better players than all of us here, I don't expect BBAP to play those people since they live in another continent. Me and BBAP will not agree with each other's claims, so I recommend him to find someone in his area that runs similar caliber Magnus list who is also a decent player.
I already played a GSC list(insurrection + Nid CAD for 2 flyrants), and it was a easy win. Mission was the scouring, I had first turn and deployed everything towards the middle near most of the objectives, no bubble wrap, He rolled only one 6 on ambush and failed to seize. Whole game I just kept summoning chariots and using nova and templates to flame his units off of objectives. His 20 man first curse did lock my screamer star for the whole game. By turn 5, I was up on maelstrom and wiped out 80% of his GSC units and he don't have nothing obsec to win primary.
I would love to play a GSC only msu army, since BBAP claim that I will struggle. I'm still waiting for shogun to come back and answer my question on his picture deployment.
Regardless THIS thread is a anti-GSC thread, so don't try to use your unfounded goal moving accusation on me when you contributed nothing.
The magnus lists in the top 8 the better one was run by curtis and he knows the ins and outs of if but just got bad luck. i actually helped Nick make his list and am apart of the U.S. ETC team. having a lot of practice vs magnus against etc level opponents i can say it is a hard match up but not impossible. its usually a draw if i dont have summoning and if i get summoning i win. all comes down to the skill level of players but against most opponents a magnus list will beat a gsc most of the time. depending on army list structure and the event format. ETC is a lot different from ITC.
Ah, the classic tantrum! So now you decide to break forum rules and call me a troll for simply pointing out the flaw in your argument. Real mature. I'll accept your concession just the same. The Golden sprue that Nick won BTW was only 36 players, did not run ITC missions, and to my knowledge had ZERO GSC in attendance. So while it's a stellar outcome for Nanavati, it hardly bares much weight in this discussion.
I didn't miss your point either btw, I got it just fine, you were struggling with no leg to stand on so you decided to make an argument from authority that you don't have. If you like looking at tournament results that's fine but show me the match between Magnus and a fully fledged GSC from a competitive event. If you can't then stop deflecting and address the actual points Shogun and BBAP have presented.
Red Corsair wrote: Ah, the classic tantrum! So now you decide to break forum rules and call me a troll for simply pointing out the flaw in your argument. Real mature. I'll accept your concession just the same. The Golden sprue that Nick won BTW was only 36 players, did not run ITC missions, and to my knowledge had ZERO GSC in attendance. So while it's a stellar outcome for Nanavati, it hardly bares much weight in this discussion.
I didn't miss your point either btw, I got it just fine, you were struggling with no leg to stand on so you decided to make an argument from authority that you don't have. If you like looking at tournament results that's fine but show me the match between Magnus and a fully fledged GSC from a competitive event. If you can't then stop deflecting and address the actual points Shogun and BBAP have presented.
Aww are you triggered? I have been presenting arguements to BBAP and shogun this whole time. Go ahead keep throwing useless accusations at me
SonsofVulkan wrote: Ok maybe its shogun who is assuming more than you. But regardless going back to your posts, its basically a back and worth argument saying daemons can't hurt GSC enough for GSC to care. You claim I don't understand GSC, sure whatever you say buddy.
You're banging on about "risking a large number of models" as though that's somehow disadvantageous. That's life for GSC. The dudes are all T3 5+, they're at risk every second they're on the table. It's why they cost 5-11pts per head. There is no way to prevent them dying. You have to make sure they die properly.
Anyways I'm just going use shogun's latest pic to estimate the 9" nova bubble, could be slightly bigger or smaller.
We're talking about deployment, and what happens to my brick in midfield on the first game turn if you go first. Shogun's photo is of a game in progress. If you want to talk about shogun's photos, talk to shogun about them.
Also the thing we're discussing can be calculated. There's no need for estimation. Here goes.
Spoiler:
Let's assume you have Novas on all five of your psykers and you roll Strength 6 Assault 12 for all of them, and that all of them go off. Let's also assume I roll no 6s and have to rely on results 3-5 to build the brick, and my Purestrains aren't in there so it's all T3 5+ dudes. I can't Seize for whatever reason, so you position your psykers at the edge of your DZ - that allows for optimal positioning around the brick to hit as many models as possible. You also get a 1 for your Warp Charge - that means you only get 18 dice, but I only have 13. Every psyker gets a single WC to make their Nova and manages it - I forget to Deny and they all go off.
For a psyker sitting at the side of the brick: 1"+1"+2"+1"+2"+1"+2" = 10". The first 1" is your separation from my first model, then 1" for the model's base, then 2" gap to the next model, etc etc. If you're at the side of the brick your Nova hits six models in the squad you're next to, plus five each in the squads to the front and back. With one FMC on each side of the brick that's 16 models twice, so 32 models total.
From the front: 1"+1"+2"=4". That's your separation from the first model, the size of its base, and its separation from the next rank. From the centre line of a 5x2 ranked squad you can hit all 10 models in the first unit, two models in the adjacent unit in the front row, and four models in the front rank of the second row. That's 16 models in total. Three psykers in front of the brick means 3*16 = 48 models.
Altogether you can Nova 80 models on turn one... right?
No.
You start with 80 hits in range. The first Nova takes out 16 models. The second takes out 16 models. Regardless of which psykers go first, by the third Nova you end up with 8 models in range, then another 8 models in range of the fourth. The fifth is all but useless, although if you position it right (i.e. at the centre of the brick's front row) you can land a single hit on a squad in b2b with the Relic.
That's a maximum of 39 models dead out of 70. Two squads are wiped, two are down to a final guy, and five need to take Warpflame tests. We'll say they fail and all of them get 3 extra wounds. That means four squads wiped, two down to 2 dudes, plus the Relic squad down to 6 plus a Patriarch.
In total you've killed 54 models out of 70. Hooray for Nipple-Novas, right? Right, but remember that this is the absolute **best case scenario** for you - and you've achieved nothing but killing some guys. I don't care that you killed some guys. I have a lot of guys. You've achieved nothing. You're not in control of midfield. You're not in control of the Relic. You can Boost forward with the Screamer "star" to deny RttS to units I wasn't going to remove anyway, but I still have a Patriarch in b2b with the Relic so you can't sit on it. Maybe you witchfire at the Patriarch and his squad after you've Nova'd - I'd get cover in that case. Maybe you Summon stuff. Whatever.
This is the best case scenario. You're rolling not just above average, but impossibly so. Every dice is coming up 6 - and I'm still in control of the middle. Now extrapolate from this to a more average case, where you have less than five Novas, I'm rolling DTW and you're having to compensate, your dudes aren't optimally positioned to hit max models because you have to bubblewrap them in case I Seizeetc etc. You're killing maybe 30 dudes in your first turn, and not only do I have my dudes on the Relic, I still have the best part of my brick intact so I can reform my lines.
You're also going first here. In a case where I'm going first I can push my army forward into yours, cut down your Swooping lanes, potentially get charges into your units, and still have a handful of Ambushers to come in next turn and cause trouble.
Seems to me like it'll hit more than 3-4 small units? Base on AVERAGE rolls, do you realize how devastating that kind of coverage will do to all those GSC models?
I realise it will kill a lot of guys. Do you remember what I've said like eight times now? You will kill some guys. I don't care that you killed some guys. I have lots of guys. "Devastating" is relative. Losing 30-40 models is "devastating" for Marines. For GSC it's just how things go.
You going to assume that GSC will stop both NOVAs now? Or that I might roll crap for the S of the Nova or the # of its?
I haven't assumed anything of the sort so far - why would you think I'd start now? I give your dudes the best case scenario and your arguments are still ass.
Nobody cares about your "seems". The numbers tell the story.
So you gonna say that you play differently than shogun and that your list is different (better) than his?
Not at all - quite the opposite, in fact. His army is better set up than mine to take Nova hits, and I'm in the middle of retooling my list as a result of this discussion. I do play differently than he does, but why that's relevant I don't know. I mentioned it in passing a couple of replies back to illustrate a point - namely that deploying aggressively to keep you out of the middle is a reasonable way to approach this specific scenario.
I believe he stated that pic was taken for Daemons turn 1(bottom of turn 1). This whole time you try to defend shogun, saying how effective his ambush deployments are. His previous ones are even more closely stacked up, so now you think he might be in trouble? And you realize he's in bad shape with only 1 magus unit out in front in a 10 man unit in which I think half are in the open. I can also show you how I deal with 5+ and 3+ shrouded cover saves when shogun shows up and answer my questions.
Sorry I can't seem to picture your brick box in relation to my deployment and the location of the relic. How you roll on ambush table for the Locations of your patriarchs and magus? # of models and units not in area terrain? I believe you wrote earlier your army has 4 or 6 patriarchs, so How many magus? Why don't you post your list after all this back and forth arguement.
Oh and I'm glad your re-tooling your list because of this thread but I hope your not tailoring too much.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/15 06:52:58
be better if we dial it down a few notches when responding to other users .
Throwing names/insults around will not make the discussion any better.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Ok maybe its shogun who is assuming more than you. But regardless going back to your posts, its basically a back and worth argument saying daemons can't hurt GSC enough for GSC to care. You claim I don't understand GSC, sure whatever you say buddy.
Anyways I'm just going use shogun's latest pic to estimate the 9" nova bubble, could be slightly bigger or smaller.
Seems to me like it'll hit more than 3-4 small units? Base on AVERAGE rolls, do you realize how devastating that kind of coverage will do to all those GSC models? You going to assume that GSC will stop both NOVAs now? Or that I might roll crap for the S of the Nova or the # of its?
So you gonna say that you play differently than shogun and that your list is different (better) than his?
Okay, first things first. Would both daemon player please realise that the are using a picture thats basically the start of daemons second turn. I already removed the models that got hit with s2 beam and slash attack. This is about the situation that the FMC are in the air and got to make a choice; go down or leave the field.
@sonsofvulkan: please realise that the cult ambush doesn't always allow for a perfect 2 inch apart setup. It does for most parts (3-6 result) but the bunch of models that are standing close together in the picture consist of an extra 10 metamorphs that trow 2,2 (see it can happen) result and outflanked close/between the other unit. I could have put them in the back but I took the risk of getting more units close to the daemons for pressure. If that nova still hits hard then the models outside 9 inch could still possibly go back in the shadow and replenish.
I will posts a few different first and second turn situations with different missions, If you don't like it that GSC is having first turn in the last battle report.
@BBAP: I also played the 'guerrilla' style setup but thats still a tough fight. GSC is actually keep running away and trying to reappear turn 5 to snatch the relic. Daemon FMC could fly 13 inch, summon seekers that get a 6+d6 run and a whole bunch of GSC units cannot go back in the shadow anymore.
I do believe that in this case the 'deploy in their face' strategy is better for keeping the daemons in their corner bubble forcing them to shoot instead of summoning and forcing the FMC to choose between flying or landing. If the daemons start summoning tzeentch flamers and daemonettes in the first and second turn it gets harder and harder.
Activate grimoire on screamers using fateweaver if required.
Fly LoC and FW off the board.
Move screamers forward to the edge of the terrain behind magnus.
horrors move forward to 11" from void shield to stop shooters. move cultists behind to fire a few shots into a small squad. spreading as much as possible to stop any ambushes behind my lines as a priority. magnus moving to within 1" of unit 1 on the ground backed up by the cultists.
Psychic phase. Casting order priority all casters within siphon range of magnus. (No of dice used - No of syphon dice) likely 11 + D6
magnus Syphon magic with 2 dice
herald casting cursed earth if I have it with 3 dice (5 - 1)
Summon 3 flamers with paradox herald into the area magnus has left. This will be an aggressive deep strike with a possibility of perils as I want to burn a unit or at least part of a unit if I can. (10 - 2)
magnus summon chariot with 3 dice (if cursed earth is off) (13 - 3)
magnus FF WC2 into 3 using 3 dice (if i din´t cast chariot) (13 - 3)
what ever dice I might have left I might start throwing at WC1 spells with magnus to take a few models from areas that I might be able to deny you with a screamer turbo boost if I don´t want to charge the units on the left.. maybe even a single nova here as I am now trying to dominate ground to counter your position.
Warp Storm table - too unknown to evaluate
Screamer shooting phase either charging units on left or turbo boost a unit off the table if possible and finishing 1" ffrom unit 1 and stretching out to hold back some units from charging magnus.
This gives you options.
ambush rolls as you can. There should be no ability to ambush within 3 of magnus except behind unit 1.
Does unit 1 look to charge magnus or one of the units behind him.
What has the ability to reach magnus to try to hold him in combat.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/15 10:50:13
SonsofVulkan wrote: I believe he stated that pic was taken for Daemons turn 1(bottom of turn 1).
Daemons turn two with GSC going first, so there's been three player turns (one and a half game turns). Game in progress, like I said.
This whole time you try to defend shogun, saying how effective his ambush deployments are. His previous ones are even more closely stacked up, so now you think he might be in trouble?
Not particularly. You won't roll well enough to kill 60-odd models, which is my point and always has been. I can rely on you not doing that to the same extent I can rely on getting enough units forward to form a brick. Even if you do roll well enough, it's 60-odd models. There's at least 100 on the table there, and the GSC went first which means there are dudes in Ongoing Reserve.
And you realize he's in bad shape with only 1 magus unit out in front in a 10 man unit in which I think half are in the open. I can also show you how I deal with 5+ and 3+ shrouded cover saves
Show, don't tell. You can assume the dice are at least good enough to produce maximum effect. You can't assume freedom of movement because you don't have that.
Sorry I can't seem to picture your brick box in relation to my deployment and the location of the relic.
It's in the middle of the table, centred just behind the Relic, front edge 6" from your DZ's perimeter. If you can't picture a 30x18" oblong in the middle of the table then I don't know what to tell you. You like Vassal - go into Vassal and deploy one up.
If I can get to my other laptop at some point I'll do it for you. Wouldn't want you to break a nail from the effort or anything.
How you roll on ambush table for the Locations of your patriarchs and magus?
Everything beyond the back of the brick can Infiltrate normally, so 1 of my 4/5 Patriarchs needs to land in the brick to get the DTW on 4+. The Magus can just Infiltrate normally behind it.
# of models and units not in area terrain?
Nova ignores terrain and kills everything but the last few models of the back squads if you roll well enough to do so. That requires at least S:4 Assault 6 for the dudes at the side, then all your to wound dice making their 3+, plus S:4+ Assault 10 on the dudes at the front. That's more likely than all sixes all the time, but still at the high narrow of the bell curve - so maybe once every 100 years instead of once every 10,000. It's therefore reasonable to assume there are intervening models between you and everyone else.
Let's say 0 models in area terrain. Explain why you're asking me this.
I believe you wrote earlier your army has 4 or 6 patriarchs, so How many magus? Why don't you post your list after all this back and forth arguement.
One Magus - but remember, this isn't shooting. A single model within 12" of my Magus means the whole squad gets AW. I can Infiltrate 18" away from the edge of your DZ and be within 12" of most of my brick. Assuming the little dude to the left of the AT in that picture is the Magus, he's covering pretty much the whole front line.
EDIT: Also any psychic power hitting that squad is Denied on a 4+. "Trouble" indeed.
Oh and I'm glad your re-tooling your list because of this thread but I hope your not tailoring too much.
List-tailoring is impossible with Genestealer Cults. You have one tool, your only choice is how big the working edge will be.
Not that I'd need to tailor if I'm facing Magnus, because he's not a super-impressive model. We've discussed at length how he's not, and the LVO results seem to bear that out. If you can't rip open a War Convocation with psychic powers then I'm not paying $130 for you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/15 13:21:35
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So I see 1 neophyte unit with magus and 2 other units roll 6s.
