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 rawne2510 wrote:


magnus Syphon magic with 2 dice

herald casting cursed earth if I have it with 3 dice (5 - 1)

Summon 3 flamers with paradox herald into the area magnus has left. This will be an aggressive deep strike with a possibility of perils as I want to burn a unit or at least part of a unit if I can. (10 - 2)

magnus summon chariot with 3 dice (if cursed earth is off) (13 - 3)

magnus FF WC2 into 3 using 3 dice (if i din´t cast chariot) (13 - 3)

what ever dice I might have left I might start throwing at WC1 spells with magnus to take a few models from areas that I might be able to deny you with a screamer turbo boost if I don´t want to charge the units on the left.. maybe even a single nova here as I am now trying to dominate ground to counter your position.

Used sum dice for this:

grimoire-> succes with the first dice.
warp charge result: 2 -> so that's Magnus (5) + herald (2) + sorcerer (I believe Sonsofvulkan sorcerer got Lvl1 and I don't know about paradox, count the points) + Blue horrors (+2) because I killed the pink horrors. = 12 warp charge

syphon 2 dice: 1,2 so thats a pass. And GSC let it go.
herald cursed earth: 2,5,6 so thats a pass And GSC let it go.
herald summoning paradox: pass and GSC let it go.
Magnus chariot 4 dice left: pass with 4 and GSC tries to counter but fails.

Even if you had more dice then the last power would have been stopped by the GSC deny the witch. I would have been saving them for the nova power.

It's not a bad move but I do think that only 3 flamer + slash attack is a bit weak for a daemon turn. At the next GSC turn its also very likely for me to add a summoning unit because you're missing 7 warp charge at that moment. I still would be going for your units on the ground but being in close combat also means I got to reduce my anti-flyzone and that would open up possibilities for your LOC and fateweaver. GSC that could lock in Magus and screamers + go for the horrors/sorcerer so that the LOC and Fateweaver got a better flyzone, could be worth it. It's still going to depend on the Nova strenght from that point on.

shogun wrote:
@BBAP: I also played the 'guerrilla' style setup but thats still a tough fight. GSC is actually keep running away and trying to reappear turn 5 to snatch the relic. Daemon FMC could fly 13 inch, summon seekers that get a 6+d6 run and a whole bunch of GSC units cannot go back in the shadow anymore.

I do believe that in this case the 'deploy in their face' strategy is better for keeping the daemons in their corner bubble forcing them to shoot instead of summoning and forcing the FMC to choose between flying or landing. If the daemons start summoning tzeentch flamers and daemonettes in the first and second turn it gets harder and harder.

Yeah, I figured this would be the case, and I'm also thinking it's a hard counter to the way I want to deploy here (i.e. back a little to control the Relic rather than right on top of the Daemons) especially if they go first.

If I'm dropping a tonne of dudes directly into the middle to block the Relic, the psykers can fly/ bike to one side, cast Cursed Earth, then drop Daemonettes and Flamers and Chariots on a flank with impunity. Maybe the psychic shooting goes off, maybe it doesn't - either way I'm going to get hit by 20+ Daemonettes, plus Chariots and Flamers, plus another round of psychic shooting on Daemons' turn two. Best case scenario my centre is largely undamaged but is pinned down while the FMCs are Summoning more Daemons in on top of me. Worst case scenario my centre gets rubbed out completely on turn two, and I've not left any dudes in a corner. In either case my Ambushers now have jobs they need to do - the Chariots and Flamers have got to go, so the 6s need to run into them and can't join the melee.

That's assuming no Seekers either.

There's just so much more pressure on me once the Summons start dropping. Focus on shooting, you kill some dudes. Focus on Summoning, you start controlling the table and force my hand with regards to what my Ambushers are doing. I'm not sure how that would bear up in a non-Relic mission, but I wouldn't be deploying centrally in a non-Relic mission. I'd guess you'd be Summoning the same units, plus maybe Flesh Hounds to snaffle any CAD Acolytes that make cheeky Ambushes onto Maelstrom flags.

Remember the Nova is only 1 WC.

So me getting that FF off and you blowing your dice has given me 1 dice to throw at the nova.

With cursed earth off those flamers get placed 1" away from you and don´t scatter. That is a lot of damage in the shooting phase and 3D3 over watch killing you with no saves.

BBAP wrote: There's just so much more pressure on me once the Summons start dropping. Focus on shooting, you kill some dudes. Focus on Summoning, you start controlling the table and force my hand with regards to what my Ambushers are doing. I'm not sure how that would bear up in a non-Relic mission, but I wouldn't be deploying centrally in a non-Relic mission. I'd guess you'd be Summoning the same units, plus maybe Flesh Hounds to snaffle any CAD Acolytes that make cheeky Ambushes onto Maelstrom flags.

It's really all about the mission. Thats why I like the 'in your face' tactics against daemons because at almost every scenario I got great board control for 3 turns. But you have got to pick the right moment to pull back and focus on the end game. I'am also more and more leaning towards biomancy after I got summoning. I would like to give a big unit 4+ feel no pain and add +1 with the icon.

rawne2510 wrote:Remember the Nova is only 1 WC.

So me getting that FF off and you blowing your dice has given me 1 dice to throw at the nova.

With cursed earth off those flamers get placed 1" away from you and don´t scatter. That is a lot of damage in the shooting phase and 3D3 over watch killing you with no saves.

That's why I wrote 'the last' psychic power/dice.

Even so the flamers can only place two templates most of the times because their still in deep strike formation and most times the can only hit around 4 models. So thats 8 models wounding on 3+ and the get a possible 6+ feel no pain so thats about 4 dead + 1 warp flame (average) kill. That overwatch flaming can be nasty I agree.

there is only 3 so they will be in a line giving them 7" range. If I could only get 4 each then I will admit lovely placement of models. That would require more time at which point I guess it depends on friendly play or tournament at that point.

This is the big downside to GSC against daemons that could possibly have summoning as we would be destroying the clock on both sides.

shogun wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Ok maybe its shogun who is assuming more than you. But regardless going back to your posts, its basically a back and worth argument saying daemons can't hurt GSC enough for GSC to care. You claim I don't understand GSC, sure whatever you say buddy.

Anyways I'm just going use shogun's latest pic to estimate the 9" nova bubble, could be slightly bigger or smaller.

Seems to me like it'll hit more than 3-4 small units? Base on AVERAGE rolls, do you realize how devastating that kind of coverage will do to all those GSC models? You going to assume that GSC will stop both NOVAs now? Or that I might roll crap for the S of the Nova or the # of its?

So you gonna say that you play differently than shogun and that your list is different (better) than his?

Okay, first things first. Would both daemon player please realise that the are using a picture thats basically the start of daemons second turn. I already removed the models that got hit with s2 beam and slash attack. This is about the situation that the FMC are in the air and got to make a choice; go down or leave the field.

@sonsofvulkan: please realise that the cult ambush doesn't always allow for a perfect 2 inch apart setup. It does for most parts (3-6 result) but the bunch of models that are standing close together in the picture consist of an extra 10 metamorphs that trow 2,2 (see it can happen) result and outflanked close/between the other unit. I could have put them in the back but I took the risk of getting more units close to the daemons for pressure. If that nova still hits hard then the models outside 9 inch could still possibly go back in the shadow and replenish.

I will posts a few different first and second turn situations with different missions, If you don't like it that GSC is having first turn in the last battle report.

@BBAP: I also played the 'guerrilla' style setup but thats still a tough fight. GSC is actually keep running away and trying to reappear turn 5 to snatch the relic. Daemon FMC could fly 13 inch, summon seekers that get a 6+d6 run and a whole bunch of GSC units cannot go back in the shadow anymore.

I do believe that in this case the 'deploy in their face' strategy is better for keeping the daemons in their corner bubble forcing them to shoot instead of summoning and forcing the FMC to choose between flying or landing. If the daemons start summoning tzeentch flamers and daemonettes in the first and second turn it gets harder and harder.

Oh wow thats why I find it pointless to keep playing out scenarios with you, why don't you consult the person your arguing with first?

Since you decided not to post the pic, this is what I would do during Daemons turn 1, the magus unit is still out in front. I swoop fatey and Magnus up forward near or to the side of the magus unit.
LoC and Screamer star also moves up next to the models not in cover.

So you say I roll a 2 right, so thats 18 WC(i assumed blue horrors are gone) for me and 10 for you?
These are the powers I rolled thats going into magus unit.
Magnus cast siphon magic on 1. Goes off on 1
LoC level 1 flicker fire on 2 dice. Goes off on 1
Herald cast Dark flame torrent on 2 dice. Goes off on 1
Fatey cast flame breath on 2 dice. Goes off on 1
Magnus level 3 flicker fire on 4 dice. Goes off on 4

You tell me if you want to deny and how many dice you wanna throw. If you choose to deny 0, Magnus will be up to 4 free WC plus 7 remaining for Fatey/Magnus to use for the Nova powers. Oh btw I rolled a 3 for Magnus and 5 for Fatey in terms of the S of the novas

I don't care what you say, that magus unit is going down, some of those acolytes has 3+ cover safe at best and those spread out in the open has only 5+ shroud. If he dies to all those other powers prior to me casting any novas, whats the chance of you denying both novas? Or if he use dices to deny some of those other powers, will you have enough left to deny any nova effectively?

Turn 2, you have no more shroud and no adman... OUCH

Ok SonsofVulkan. Even I think you are being a dick now and I was on your side.

 rawne2510 wrote:
there is only 3 so they will be in a line giving them 7" range. If I could only get 4 each then I will admit lovely placement of models. That would require more time at which point I guess it depends on friendly play or tournament at that point.

This is the big downside to GSC against daemons that could possibly have summoning as we would be destroying the clock on both sides.

I believe that is an illegal deepstrike. You must place all models after the first in concentric circles touching the firsts base. But even so remember that in 7th you can only kill what is in range, this is the same reason burna boyz got nerfed, you can rack up as many hits as you want but if 4 guys are in range under the templates, your only killing those 4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@SoV seriously dude I think you should take a break. Your not being fair to anyone at this point including yourself and your still throwing out barbs and attitude.

Oh and BTW, I do not get "triggered," that's such a hilarious concept to me, your never going to get me mad using your words, you might surprise me with your ignorance though.

Cortez works anytime a unit gets in range and unlimited
Servo skulls on a xenos inq prevents the alpha strike not just for gsc but a lot of armies for almost no points.
Greyfax also has a no infiltrating 24in range but not useful vs gsc.
Then there is a new ecclissary relic if you use castellan detachment or have Celestine which has a no deep strike bubble, auto mishap bubble even if you scatter and 4++ to the character but again not terrible useful for gsc.

Any combination of above is usually a circle of death for any deepstrike, infiltrating army. However specifically for gsc I would use Cortez and servo skulls or Cortez in a castellan detachment w the ecclisaary anti deepstrike relic for a TaC list.

Coteaz, not Cortez.

And he's a bit hard to get into a Tzeentch Daemons army.

gungo wrote:
Cortez works anytime a unit gets in range and unlimited
Servo skulls on a xenos inq prevents the alpha strike not just for gsc but a lot of armies for almost no points.
Greyfax also has a no infiltrating 24in range but not useful vs gsc.
Then there is a new ecclissary relic if you use castellan detachment or have Celestine which has a no deep strike bubble, auto mishap bubble even if you scatter and 4++ to the character but again not terrible useful for gsc.

Any combination of above is usually a circle of death for any deepstrike, infiltrating army. However specifically for gsc I would use Cortez and servo skulls or Cortez in a castellan detachment w the ecclisaary anti deepstrike relic for a TaC list.

That's really the best strategy at the moment. I am not sure which armies would benefit from coteaz but the servo skulls are the best solution. That said, I am not sure what concessions would need to be made in the above demon lists since it is tight as feth on points. The GSC strategy would have to change though and would be looking to RttS and/or coming in from reserve and targeting the ground units while still grabbing up as much board control in the middle as possible.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Coteaz, not Cortez.

And he's a bit hard to get into a Tzeentch Daemons army.

While there was a sidetrack on tzetch the op was guard and tau. I don't play tzetch.
Also greyfax isn't total loss on gsc, if they roll a 5 they can infiltrate and tags messed up any psyker unit.

Huh. Well I'll be.

How does Coteaz interact with Cult Ambush? Because if that works, hot DAMN is that a good counter (especially for those 6's on the CA table).

I\d take the skull caddy personally since it gets you a chance at leaving your deployment zone and is cheaper. It also works with the most armies. Coteaz isn't super great in none BB faction armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Huh. Well I'll be.

How does Coteaz interact with Cult Ambush? Because if that works, hot DAMN is that a good counter (especially for those 6's on the CA table).

Coteaz would not work against the initial deployment which is why you would also need a skull caddy inquisitor. His IBEY rule would trigger off the cult ambush units arriving from reserve though.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Oh wow thats why I find it pointless to keep playing out scenarios with you, why don't you consult the person your arguing with first?

Since you decided not to post the pic, this is what I would do during Daemons turn 1, the magus unit is still out in front. I swoop fatey and Magnus up forward near or to the side of the magus unit.
LoC and Screamer star also moves up next to the models not in cover.

So you say I roll a 2 right, so thats 18 WC(i assumed blue horrors are gone) for me and 10 for you?
These are the powers I rolled thats going into magus unit.
Magnus cast siphon magic on 1. Goes off on 1
LoC level 1 flicker fire on 2 dice. Goes off on 1
Herald cast Dark flame torrent on 2 dice. Goes off on 1
Fatey cast flame breath on 2 dice. Goes off on 1
Magnus level 3 flicker fire on 4 dice. Goes off on 4

You tell me if you want to deny and how many dice you wanna throw. If you choose to deny 0, Magnus will be up to 4 free WC plus 7 remaining for Fatey/Magnus to use for the Nova powers. Oh btw I rolled a 3 for Magnus and 5 for Fatey in terms of the S of the novas

I don't care what you say, that magus unit is going down, some of those acolytes has 3+ cover safe at best and those spread out in the open has only 5+ shroud. If he dies to all those other powers prior to me casting any novas, whats the chance of you denying both novas? Or if he use dices to deny some of those other powers, will you have enough left to deny any nova effectively?

Turn 2, you have no more shroud and no adman... OUCH

And that's why it's pointless keep playing out scenario's for you because you either don't like the settings or keep assuming that you will always trow the average result. I played daemons and I know that that is the biggest mistake you can make with them. You really need to focus on the powers you really want and go big or simply start tossing out 1x d6 for every WC1 shooty power so that at least every 4+ is a win. Or simply expect that one or two powers will fail. Also, your just firing away powers but position matters. If fateweaver uses a flamer then the nova coming next will not have that big of an impact because he already killed 3/4 models within 9 inch. If Magnus fires flickering fire at a unit in the back then you got to deal with intervening models (+shrouded), If he fires a unit in the front then that nova also got less models to kill.

In this case I indeed roll your dice and guess what; The LOC failed his psychic test and Magnus got only 9 attacks with his flickering fire and after that wounded only 6 and killed 4. If both flamers hit 4 models so then that would be 6 wounds after a possible 6+ feel no pain. Could be a bit more with soul blaze. So now we are in a position that we both got around 10 warp dice and I can also block on a 4+. So probably one nova will get thru (like I have always been saying).

I know that there is a voice in your head screaming "THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE" but then I would wait with painting your grey daemons and play a little bit more to see if you really like a daemon army. Because you're going to be yelling that a lot...

I'am not going to be posting any pictures / battle report's here because it's very time consuming and I made all the points I wanted to make. I'am going back to the GSC-strategic topic and talk about general GSC tactics, because there are a lot of other armies out there.

Oh and BTW rawne2510; don't call Sonsofvulkan names... he is not like that.. he is just.... special.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I\d take the skull caddy personally since it gets you a chance at leaving your deployment zone and is cheaper. It also works with the most armies. Coteaz isn't super great in none BB faction armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Huh. Well I'll be.

How does Coteaz interact with Cult Ambush? Because if that works, hot DAMN is that a good counter (especially for those 6's on the CA table).

Coteaz would not work against the initial deployment which is why you would also need a skull caddy inquisitor. His IBEY rule would trigger off the cult ambush units arriving from reserve though.

No but he is pretty much the best TAC inclusion for IoM armies, bonus to seize, divination access, a 12in unlimited bubble (which is basically 2ft) of death for his unit he joins on any enemy unit and in a castellan detachment he makes everyone obj secured for 100pts. He may not work on initial deployment but who cares not only does he hinder all subsequent turns ambushes but if you deploy by him you risk him using his bonus to seize to just take the first turn from you and cause serious damage when your that close to shooting and counter charges.

Take another hq for whatever IoM army you play add in the 30pt relic that prevents all deepstrike within 12in and if you scatter in that 12in an auto mishap, on top of a 4++. And you counter a lot of deepstrike armies as well. However servo skulls are better for scouting armies. I guess you could just take a xenos inqusitor with 3 servo skulls and the eccliesary relic and completely screw over deepstrike, arriving from reserves, infiltrators, scouting armies All for 164pts (100 cotaez, 25inq w 9pts skulls, 30pt relic)

Basically IOM has choices not sure about tzetch armies unless you have access to something that forces dangerous terrain checks which can cause some damage to units that move into range.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Huh. Well I'll be.

How does Coteaz interact with Cult Ambush? Because if that works, hot DAMN is that a good counter (especially for those 6's on the CA table).

The problem is that the GSC only need to keep 12 inch away from coteaz and not the other unit members. GSC don't scatter and can place them models exactly where the want to and the shortest assault range possible. But it's still a speed bump.

If the are facing servo skull's then the daemon player need to deploy in the back:



And first turn the all (except one) go into the shadows and come out of reserve with cult ambush.

The problem with servo skulls they die once you move in range. Again the gsc can just setup outside the 12in range and move into range and they are useless after turn. Cotaez is at least durable prevents further cult ambushes from appearing in 12in and helps seize the initiative.

For 164pts just take cotaez and a xenos inq w skulls and the ecclisary relic and you truly screw over a lot of armies that want to manipulate deployment or arrive from reserves but this setup requires a castellan detachment. Which isn't bad but requires 4 troop choices that respawn on a 5+.

Servo Skulls are a big-time menace even assuming they pop on turn one, particularly if you have an army big enough to plug up the table behind them. Definitely worth the handful of points you spend on them.

Coteaz is definitely a fantastic counter to genestealers. It's kind of one of my 40k dreams to get him with a mining laser during deployment just so he can't seize on me.

This is by far, the best argument I have seen on Dakka

 gummyofallbears wrote:
This is by far, the best argument I have seen on Dakka

No it's not. **This** is the best argument on Dakka.

gungo wrote:
The problem with servo skulls they die once you move in range. Again the gsc can just setup outside the 12in range and move into range and they are useless after turn. Cotaez is at least durable prevents further cult ambushes from appearing in 12in and helps seize the initiative.

For 164pts just take cotaez and a xenos inq w skulls and the ecclisary relic and you truly screw over a lot of armies that want to manipulate deployment or arrive from reserves but this setup requires a castellan detachment. Which isn't bad but requires 4 troop choices that respawn on a 5+.

The servo skulls only work on deployment. after that they are useless.

Well they do help with blast templates so not totally useless.
But yes they only effect the first turn infiltration, scout, cult ambush setups.

I'm still a bigger fan of Cortez in a decent shooty unit holding a 2ft bubble on the board that discourages gsc from appearing within 12in of him. Yes someone can deploy near him if you don't have any other form of anti infiltrator ability such as servo skulls or greyfax However you risk getting seized on and taking Substantial damage the first turn.