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Out of interest, can anyone calculate the following:

Saint Celestine, attached to a Fist of Medusa Strike Force Command Squad that includes a Librarius Conclave.

Let us presume they have the Veil of Time Psychic Power on, which lets you re-roll failed saves.

The scenario is that Celestine is tanking in the front, and all wounds she takes go into her Geminae instead (notice it does not work like normal LOS, but as I wrote instead). The Bolter shots are delivered with BS4.

After the Geminae are dead, she starts to Look Out Sir! -wounds into IH Smashfudger, who at this point has a re-rollable 2+, re-rollable 3++ and a 2+ Feel No Pain.

How many shots before Celestine dies the first time (meaning Smashfudger has also died, next to the Geminae.)

If someone gets that far, how many shots if they're Invisible?

Celestine gets to auto-pass look out sirs?

a million?

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Celestine gets to auto-pass look out sirs?

She does one better, kinda, with the Geminae. There is no LOS.

Whilst at least one is alive, any wounds suffered by Celestine are resolved against the closest Geminae Superia instead.

And the above wording leaves some guesswork to be done, in particular what does it mean that a "wound suffered" is "resolved" against the closest Geminae. A suffered Wound, I believe, is when a save has been failed. This begs the question of what is there to resolve after that (the Geminae tries to save against the Wound separately once more?)

In any case, for the above calculation, should someone succeed, let us presume a Wound Celestine fails to save is "conferred" to the closest Geminae instead of "resolved against."

 Runic wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Celestine gets to auto-pass look out sirs?

She does one better, kinda, with the Geminae. There is no LOS.

Whilst at least one is alive, any wounds suffered by Celestine are resolved against the closest Gemainae Superia instead.

And RAW, you can tank it on Celestines 2+ Save (By putting her in front) and when you fail it, the bodyguard take the wound

How many wounds/what save does each party get? Eg Celestine, Smash, Geminae and the command squad.
But auto pass look outsirs I meant after her Geminae die its a 2+ to give the save to Smash.,



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I presume the command squad confers 5+ FNP?

Quick and dirty math (in part because I don't remember if Celestine gets the FNP and I'm short on time right now) you're looking at about 5,800 (73 Legion Tactical Squads using Fury of the Legion, which are a bit of a stretch to get into rapid-fire range in the first place), if the Librarius Conclave is on bikes (to give majority Toughness 5), the unit is Inivisible, Veil of Time is in play, and Celestine tanks all the wounds instead of Look Out, Sir!ing them onto Smashfucker. Will do this in more detail later.

Are we to assume that SmashF*cker Prime is also rolling with his command squad crew?

If so, i would need to do the math, but probably a whole lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Quick and dirty math (in part because I don't remember if Celestine gets the FNP and I'm short on time right now) you're looking at about 5,800 (73 Legion Tactical Squads using Fury of the Legion, which are a bit of a stretch to get into rapid-fire range in the first place), if the Librarius Conclave is on bikes (to give majority Toughness 5), the unit is Inivisible, Veil of Time is in play, and Celestine tanks all the wounds instead of Look Out, Sir!ing them onto Smashfucker. Will do this in more detail later.

Why would you not take them on Smash though? 2+, 2+ fnp, 5+ it will not die

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Quick and dirty math (in part because I don't remember if Celestine gets the FNP and I'm short on time right now) you're looking at about 5,800 (73 Legion Tactical Squads using Fury of the Legion, which are a bit of a stretch to get into rapid-fire range in the first place), if the Librarius Conclave is on bikes (to give majority Toughness 5), the unit is Inivisible, Veil of Time is in play, and Celestine tanks all the wounds instead of Look Out, Sir!ing them onto Smashfucker. Will do this in more detail later.

Why would you not take them on Smash though? 2+, 2+ fnp, 5+ it will not die

There's a point at which further optimizing an already ridiculous situation becomes silly. Have you ever seen a game in which a thousand bolter shots were fired at one unit, let alone 5,800?

(But add another 15,500 bolter shots for the number it'd take to batter through Smashfucker before continuing on to Celestine, if you really want to.)

(For the record according to a few very approximate calculations you could pack around four hundred Marines into rapid-fire range around this imaginary unit, and another thousand into single-shot range, at which point if Celestine & Co sat and did nothing for two entire Shooting phases Smashfucker would take a single Wound.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

There's a point at which further optimizing an already ridiculous situation becomes silly. Have you ever seen a game in which a thousand bolter shots were fired at one unit, let alone 5,800?

(But add another 15,500 bolter shots for the number it'd take to batter through Smashfucker before continuing on to Celestine, if you really want to.)

(For the record according to a few very approximate calculations you could pack around four hundred Marines into rapid-fire range around this imaginary unit, and another thousand into single-shot range, at which point if Celestine & Co sat and did nothing for two entire Shooting phases Smashfucker would take a single Wound.)

How do you figure that many to wound smash fether?
648 shots to kill both Geminae (assuming Celestine gets FNP, T4, and without invisible). 2592 with invisible.
777.6 bolter shots to wound Smashfucker after that without invisible. 3110.4 shots with invisible.
plus those together and after 1425.6 shots you've wounded Smashfucker without invisible, 5702.4 with invisible
So times that by however many wounds he has to kill him, Celestine should take wounds at about the same rate he has, so whichever has fewer wounds would die first.
with your range calculations you'd be firing ~1800 bolter shots per turn, so ~1.3 wounds on Smashfucker without invisible, 0.32 wounds with invisible, needing 3 turns to statistically almost cause a wound.
Unless you're using special rule for +1 shot, in which case carry on with invisibility.


EDIT: does dakka automatically amend f***er to fether?
Or have I been reading far to much Gaunts Ghosts?

Majority Toughness is 5.

Bolters hit on 3s (1.5 shots to a hit) and wound on 5s (4.5 shots to a wound), with Celestine saving on a 2+ rerollable (162 shots to a wound that goes through) with a 5+ FNP (243 now). That happens 4 times to kill the Geminae, for 972.

Then, Look Out Sir on Smash. Five out of six get rolled successfully, so Celestine takes 1/6th the wounds. We now need five more wounds, for 1,215 (or 7,290 total).

That does mean, however, Smash takes 6,075 bolter hits. Hitting on 3s (4,050 hit), wounding on 5s (1,350 wound), 2+ save rerollable (37.5) by 2+ FNP (6.25) means that will actually kill Smash too.

So around 8,000 bolter shots. Little bit less, maybe. Assuming they are NOT invisible. Multiply by 4 if they are.

Celestine is 2+/4++, no FNP, and T3

 Marmatag wrote:
Celestine is 2+/4++, no FNP, and T3

She gets FNP and T4 from the command squad. Rerollable armour from the psychic power.

Why does GW make stuff so hard to kill in this game?

I really get tired of needing a bazooka to do a single wound.

 Whitebeard wrote:
Why does GW make stuff so hard to kill in this game?

I really get tired of needing a bazooka to do a single wound.

A Land Raider can't be killed with bolters at all, zomg broken?

Clearly with Celestine and friends, you just use different guns.

 commander dante wrote:

 Runic wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Celestine gets to auto-pass look out sirs?

She does one better, kinda, with the Geminae. There is no LOS.

Whilst at least one is alive, any wounds suffered by Celestine are resolved against the closest Gemainae Superia instead.

And RAW, you can tank it on Celestines 2+ Save (By putting her in front) and when you fail it, the bodyguard take the wound

By RAW it's completely ambiguous either way(to be fair to the many people who read it the way you have) RAI is crystal clear and in cases where RAW allows both interpretations equally, go with rai.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Whitebeard wrote:
Why does GW make stuff so hard to kill in this game?

I really get tired of needing a bazooka to do a single wound.

A Land Raider can't be killed with bolters at all, zomg broken?

Clearly with Celestine and friends, you just use different guns.

5,800 bolters to kill some infantry and bikers is sorta silly, even if they are all chapter masters and stuff, its still too much

Anyone wanna do the math with lascannons?

With lascannons you need 7.2 to kill both Geminae.
48 to kill Celestine.
Multiply those x4 to get with invisibility.

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Whitebeard wrote:
Why does GW make stuff so hard to kill in this game?

I really get tired of needing a bazooka to do a single wound.

A Land Raider can't be killed with bolters at all, zomg broken?

Clearly with Celestine and friends, you just use different guns.

5,800 bolters to kill some infantry and bikers is sorta silly, even if they are all chapter masters and stuff, its still too much

Anyone wanna do the math with lascannons?

On the one hand I totally agree with that sentiment, but on the other hand this is why I'm also fine with things like D weapons.

IMO these sorts of god-units tend to be largely academic anyways.

ERJAK wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

 Runic wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Celestine gets to auto-pass look out sirs?

She does one better, kinda, with the Geminae. There is no LOS.

Whilst at least one is alive, any wounds suffered by Celestine are resolved against the closest Gemainae Superia instead.

And RAW, you can tank it on Celestines 2+ Save (By putting her in front) and when you fail it, the bodyguard take the wound

By RAW it's completely ambiguous either way(to be fair to the many people who read it the way you have) RAI is crystal clear and in cases where RAW allows both interpretations equally, go with rai.

Well, by RAW it states "As soon as Celestine SUFFERS a Wound, resolve it on the nearest Geminae Superia Instead"

The BRB under 'Saves' "As soon as a model fails an Armour save etc, they SUFFER a Wound"

A lot of her durability in that scenario comes from a very immobile, killable squad.

And once you find yourself in assault that command squad is gonna get wrecked.

Take a model in base contact with Celestine and issue a challenge to the champ, you'll lose some units but you'll kill the squad. Celestine by herself is very killable.

And when you talk about stacking a ton of psychic powers on one unit, i'd go for something that packs more of a punch than she does.

I'm gonna have to disagree. The entire 'star' will be on bikes, as there is really no reason not too, so easily a very fast unit.

Additionally, the command squad is insane in shooting and assault, chapter master smash fudger, celestine +all the command squad members and librarians, maybe another chapter master if you threw another in. Celestine gives Hit and Run so they don't have to be in combat if they don't want to.

Celestine is very very hard to kill. Even in chalenges she still puts wounds onto her two gemini, plus her tons of S7 attacks, anything with a 3+ armour won't survive. And you need to cut through 8(?) wounds with a 2+ armour and FNP) And the controlling player gets to pick who accepts challenges, so he can throw smashfether v1 or v2 into the challenge to murder whatever apposes the star (not much)

At that point you're paying a ton of points to basically make Celestine - an already very difficult unit to kill - more difficult to kill.

She's weak on offense, not defense.

And you're paying a TON of points here. Command squad, apothecary, bikes, HQ, Celestine, but it really doesn't pack much of a punch, and it all is grouped into 1 unit. You're grouping what, 600 points in one unit?

Also, since when was this an exercise in practicality?
It's a pick the tankiest thing we can, how tanky is it?
Maybe it'd be cooler to throw lasguns at it. See how many cubic meters of dice you'd have to roll to kill her. Or what country you'd have to press into service to equip sufficient numbers of Guardsmen.

If anything i'd throw down grav at that thing. any form of relentless grav would do wicked things, and concussive would make Celestine's unit super vulnerable to charges.

 Marmatag wrote:
If anything i'd throw down grav at that thing. any form of relentless grav would do wicked things, and concussive would make Celestine's unit super vulnerable to charges.

I wasn't talking about how I would actually kill it.
I was talking about fun things to mathematically throw at it, to see how ludicrous we can make things.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
If anything i'd throw down grav at that thing. any form of relentless grav would do wicked things, and concussive would make Celestine's unit super vulnerable to charges.

I wasn't talking about how I would actually kill it.
I was talking about fun things to mathematically throw at it, to see how ludicrous we can make things.

Well the second you start throwing high str weaponry you'll benefit from instant death just negating feel no pain.

 Marmatag wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
If anything i'd throw down grav at that thing. any form of relentless grav would do wicked things, and concussive would make Celestine's unit super vulnerable to charges.

I wasn't talking about how I would actually kill it.
I was talking about fun things to mathematically throw at it, to see how ludicrous we can make things.

Well the second you start throwing high str weaponry you'll benefit from instant death just negating feel no pain.

And you still fail to see the point.
We're not trying to kill her. We're trying to see how long it can take to kill her.
The concept of literally filling a 24'' radius with tactical marines and still not even getting a wound is hilarious.
''pfft just use grav cannons'' is lame.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
If anything i'd throw down grav at that thing. any form of relentless grav would do wicked things, and concussive would make Celestine's unit super vulnerable to charges.

I wasn't talking about how I would actually kill it.
I was talking about fun things to mathematically throw at it, to see how ludicrous we can make things.

Well the second you start throwing high str weaponry you'll benefit from instant death just negating feel no pain.

And you still fail to see the point.
We're not trying to kill her. We're trying to see how long it can take to kill her.
The concept of literally filling a 24'' radius with tactical marines and still not even getting a wound is hilarious.
''pfft just use grav cannons'' is lame.

We're not trying to kill her.

We're trying to see how long it can take to kill her.

Remember that Celestine can Resurrect the Geminae, was this taken into account in the calculations?

And indeed when she joins the bike Command Squad, she (and everybody else) benefits from Feel No Pain, Veil of Time and Invisibility with full buffs (not at all difficult to pull off with Librarius Conclave).

I guess we can agree that a gakton of Bolter rounds, anyway. So much it's not possible to have enough Tactical Marines even in a 2000 point game.