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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 LordofHats wrote:
Of course he isn't going. The whole thing is a roast and Trump is incapable of accepting any criticism, even the funny and pointed kind that you're supposed to laugh at (though this has been true of the last three Republican administrations to some degree).

Well...

Can't say I blame him, this is in 2011:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/26 13:20:58


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

That's a stupid reply, even by your standards.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 d-usa wrote:
That's a stupid reply, even by your standards.



Whatever man. It's almost as if those media figures has chosen their form of destructor... especially for give Trumpo an estimated 3 billion dollars of free airtime during the primary:


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

No, I am pretty confident that it is honestly the dumbest thing you have posted in these threads. And that single short reply manages to sum up what is wrong with your entire political world view. Trump skips an annual occasion that no POTUS has skipped since Reagan, and even Reagan phoned it in when he was laying in a hospital bed after being shot.

Your reply:

#1: Don't blame Trump
#2: It's Obama's fault.

I can honestly say that this just means that there is no point in replying to anything else you have to say, because there is no point even trying to argue with that logic.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 d-usa wrote:
No, I am pretty confident that it is honestly the dumbest thing you have posted in these threads. And that single short reply manages to sum up what is wrong with your entire political world view. Trump skips an annual occasion that no POTUS has skipped since Reagan, and even Reagan phoned it in when he was laying in a hospital bed after being shot.

Your reply:

#1: Don't blame Trump
#2: It's Obama's fault.

I can honestly say that this just means that there is no point in replying to anything else you have to say, because there is no point even trying to argue with that logic.

Nah... you're still upset about the election bro... I understand.

This here really has nothing to do with Obama, moreso about the media. It's one thing to ding Trumpo for his birtherism or even his defense that he's a billionaire... those are fair games. But, they were particularly vindictive about his desire to run for Presidency.

The media had a LARGE role in Trumpo's rise to the presidency(BIGLY!)... the media had:
  • Pretended for years that Trump was a real billionaire (and thus an important person) simply because he was a good character to use in their stories.

  • Ignored Trumpo's faults for years, because he's a polarizing (thus interesting) figure, but since he won the GOP's nomination, the claws came out.

  • Sucked up so much to Barack Obama for eight years and personally portrayed two very fine Republican opponents as monsters, so that they lost all credibility for when it really mattered (Trumpo himself).

  • Allowed Trumpo’s absurd presidential candidacy to take off unrestricted because he was good for ratings during a slow news period in the summer of 2015.

  • Gave Trumpo over three billion dollars in free air time during the primaries because he was good for ratings and because they figured he couldn’t win the nomination and if he did, that would still be cool because it would ensure a Hillary Clinton victory.

  • Grossly overhyped the letter by FBI Director James Comey eleven days before the election because they thought the conclusion had already been decided and they wanted to squeeze out some more drama all the way up until the end (and boy did they get it!).

  • Finally, Trumpo is not obligated to go to this thing and frankly, it's nothing more than a large opulent, circle-jerk.


  • This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/26 13:46:16


    Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


     
       
    Made in us
    Decrepit Dakkanaut






    Leerstetten, Germany

     whembly wrote:
     d-usa wrote:
    No, I am pretty confident that it is honestly the dumbest thing you have posted in these threads. And that single short reply manages to sum up what is wrong with your entire political world view. Trump skips an annual occasion that no POTUS has skipped since Reagan, and even Reagan phoned it in when he was laying in a hospital bed after being shot.

    Your reply:

    #1: Don't blame Trump
    #2: It's Obama's fault.

    I can honestly say that this just means that there is no point in replying to anything else you have to say, because there is no point even trying to argue with that logic.

    Nah... you're still upset about the election bro... I understand.





    Until then, perma-ignore it is .
       
    Made in us
    Fixture of Dakka





    West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

    Finally, Trumpo is not obligated to go to this thing and frankly, it's nothing more than a large opulent, circle-jerk


    Yeah, but it's telling that he's avoiding it, as large, opulent, metaphorical circle-jerks are kind of his favorite thing in the whole world. He's still reminding people of his own greatness during speeches and meetings, like his sudden, 'Hey- tell them about my hole-in-one, you tell it the best!". But he can't handle any sort of criticism, or he wouldn't be still constantly referring to how he should have won the popular vote.

    You still freaking won, man!

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/26 14:01:48




    "By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
       
    Made in be
    Longtime Dakkanaut





     d-usa wrote:



    Until then, perma-ignore it is .


    You don't miss much.

    By the way, media played a part in the coming of Age of Trump, but the Republicans played an even greater part, by allowing him to be their candidate, voting for/defending him or just attacking blindly the other side like a good lil lapdog.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/26 14:06:50


     
       
    Made in us
    5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





    Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

     d-usa wrote:
     whembly wrote:
     d-usa wrote:
    No, I am pretty confident that it is honestly the dumbest thing you have posted in these threads. And that single short reply manages to sum up what is wrong with your entire political world view. Trump skips an annual occasion that no POTUS has skipped since Reagan, and even Reagan phoned it in when he was laying in a hospital bed after being shot.

    Your reply:

    #1: Don't blame Trump
    #2: It's Obama's fault.

    I can honestly say that this just means that there is no point in replying to anything else you have to say, because there is no point even trying to argue with that logic.

    Nah... you're still upset about the election bro... I understand.





    Until then, perma-ignore it is .

    Nope. Perfectly content where I stand.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     AegisGrimm wrote:
    Finally, Trumpo is not obligated to go to this thing and frankly, it's nothing more than a large opulent, circle-jerk


    Yeah, but it's telling that he's avoiding it, as large, opulent, metaphorical circle-jerks are kind of his favorite thing in the whole world. He's still reminding people of his own greatness during speeches and meetings, like his sudden, 'Hey- tell them about my hole-in-one, you tell it the best!". But he can't handle any sort of criticism, or he wouldn't be still constantly referring to how he should have won the popular vote.

    Of course.

    Still doesn't mean he's obligated to go.

    You still freaking won, man!

    Not really. None of my desired Presidential candidates won.

    'Tis why is fun to be in Calvin-Ball mode.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Sarouan wrote:

    You don't miss much.



    By the way, media played a part in the coming of Age of Trump, but the Republicans played an even greater part, by allowing him to be their candidate, voting for/defending him or just attacking blindly the other side like a good lil lapdog.

    Of course.

    I was one of those #NeverTrumpers hoping that the RNC would kick him off the ticket... they had the means to do so, but chickened out.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/26 14:10:56


    Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


     
       
    Made in us
    [DCM]
    .







    GENERAL IN THREAD WARNING:

    Less commenting about who you're ignoring, disingenuous arguing and ignoring of Rule #1 - ASAP.
       
    Made in se
    Longtime Dakkanaut






     whembly wrote:
    Not really. None of my desired Presidential candidates won.

    'Tis why is fun to be in Calvin-Ball mode.

    What does this even mean?

    (Apart from being one of the spaces in the: whembly US-politics bingo.)

       
    Made in us
    5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





    Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

     Zywus wrote:
     whembly wrote:
    Not really. None of my desired Presidential candidates won.

    'Tis why is fun to be in Calvin-Ball mode.

    What does this even mean?

    (Apart from being one of the spaces in the: whembly US-politics bingo.)

    Uh... the fact that none of the candidates that I supported in the Primary won... thus, me not voting for Trumpo in the election.

    So... zero feths given.

    Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


     
       
    Made in us
    Never Forget Isstvan!





    Chicago

     whembly wrote:
     Zywus wrote:
     whembly wrote:
    Not really. None of my desired Presidential candidates won.

    'Tis why is fun to be in Calvin-Ball mode.

    What does this even mean?

    (Apart from being one of the spaces in the: whembly US-politics bingo.)

    Uh... the fact that none of the candidates that I supported in the Primary won... thus, me not voting for Trumpo in the election.

    So... zero feths given.


    This past page is why you have pretty much lost any credibility in OT, from the childish meme arguments to deflecting any responsibility that the GOP has for this gak show that is going on

    Ustrello paints- 30k, 40k multiple armies
    http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/614742.page 
       
    Made in us
    5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





    Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

    Well... the Obama/Clinton wing narrowly won over the Bernie wing of the Democratic party in the DNC leadership election:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/tom-perez-elected-as-first-latino-leader-of-democratic-party/2017/02/25/1fd76f52-fad7-11e6-9845-576c69081518_story.html?utm_term=.a5034d1f55b8

    Boy... the DNC is making the "this was a one-term president" a patriotic slogan again.


    Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


     
       
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    On a surly Warboar, leading the Waaagh!

     Vaktathi wrote:
    Interesting...

    President Trump to skip White House correspondents' dinner


    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39093434

    Trump will be the first presidential miss since Reagan was shot in 1981...



    This is my shocked face. The one overriding characteristic of his personality is that he's a thin-skinned, whiny be-atch.

    There are rumors, though, that he'll be having a PWHCD(Preferred White House Correspondent's Dinner) in Spicer's office with his employment-dependent family members, Breitbart, Faux News and Pravda in attendance. Only Trump will be speaking...if that's what his usual second grade word-salad is called...so the possibility for humor still remains high.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/26 15:01:48


     
       
    Made in se
    Longtime Dakkanaut






     whembly wrote:
     Zywus wrote:
     whembly wrote:
    Not really. None of my desired Presidential candidates won.

    'Tis why is fun to be in Calvin-Ball mode.

    What does this even mean?

    (Apart from being one of the spaces in the: whembly US-politics bingo.)

    Uh... the fact that none of the candidates that I supported in the Primary won... thus, me not voting for Trumpo in the election.

    So... zero feths given.

    I still don't understand what significance calvinball has. (I assume you're referring to the game in Calvin and Hobbes where Calvin makes up the rules as he goes along)

    Are you basically saying that you're trolling?

       
    Made in us
    Thane of Dol Guldur




     BigWaaagh wrote:

    There are rumors, though, that he'll be having a PWHCD(Preferred White House Correspondent's Dinner) in Spicer's office with his employment-dependent family members, Breitbart, Faux News and Pravda in attendance. Only Trump will be speaking...if that's what his usual second grade word-salad is called...so the possibility for humor still remains high.


    I personally can't wait to see what becomes of the WHCD. Getting roasted by Seth Myers and Obama, and everyone in the crowd laughing at him, is probably what triggered Trump to run in the first place. I'm betting there will be no comedian invited, and about an hour and a half of the equivalent of somebody like Ted Nugent yelling "Look who's laughing know, MFers!".


    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/26 15:18:38


     
       
    Made in gb
    Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





    Bristol

     whembly wrote:
     Zywus wrote:
     whembly wrote:
    Not really. None of my desired Presidential candidates won.

    'Tis why is fun to be in Calvin-Ball mode.

    What does this even mean?

    (Apart from being one of the spaces in the: whembly US-politics bingo.)

    Uh... the fact that none of the candidates that I supported in the Primary won... thus, me not voting for Trumpo in the election.

    So... zero feths given.


    Giving zero feths about who is in executive control of your country just because it isn't someone you wanted is just plain dumb.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/26 15:19:19


    The Laws of Thermodynamics:
    1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

    Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
     
       
    Made in us
    5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





    Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

     A Town Called Malus wrote:
     whembly wrote:
     Zywus wrote:
     whembly wrote:
    Not really. None of my desired Presidential candidates won.

    'Tis why is fun to be in Calvin-Ball mode.

    What does this even mean?

    (Apart from being one of the spaces in the: whembly US-politics bingo.)

    Uh... the fact that none of the candidates that I supported in the Primary won... thus, me not voting for Trumpo in the election.

    So... zero feths given.


    Giving zero feths about who is in executive control of your country just because it isn't someone you wanted is just plain dumb.

    Hey... it least it isn't her:



    By the way, there's this website to help you cope:
    http://www.hillarybeattrump.org/

    Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


     
       
    Made in gb
    Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





    Bristol

    I don't think Hillary would not go to the White House correspondents dinner because some people may say mean things about her.

    At least she isn't a whiny, soft-skinned egomaniac, unlike the current chief representative of the Republican party.

    The Laws of Thermodynamics:
    1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

    Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
     
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    On a surly Warboar, leading the Waaagh!

     Zywus wrote:
     whembly wrote:
     Zywus wrote:
     whembly wrote:
    Not really. None of my desired Presidential candidates won.

    'Tis why is fun to be in Calvin-Ball mode.

    What does this even mean?

    (Apart from being one of the spaces in the: whembly US-politics bingo.)

    Uh... the fact that none of the candidates that I supported in the Primary won... thus, me not voting for Trumpo in the election.

    So... zero feths given.

    I still don't understand what significance calvinball has. (I assume you're referring to the game in Calvin and Hobbes where Calvin makes up the rules as he goes along)

    Are you basically saying that you're trolling?


    To paraphrase one of the great, fictional evil genius' of our time, "Light bulb!"




    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Got a minute? Here's a great LA Times article that tells an interesting, specific tale of the migration of a factory's jobs from Ohio to Mexico. Good, quick read. Good for perspective.

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a-tale-of-2-cities-what-happened-when-factory-jobs-moved-from-warren-ohio-to-juarez-mexico/ar-AAnh18P?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=ASUDHP


    This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/02/26 16:00:04


     
       
    Made in us
    Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






     whembly wrote:
    Well... the Obama/Clinton wing narrowly won over the Bernie wing of the Democratic party in the DNC leadership election:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/tom-perez-elected-as-first-latino-leader-of-democratic-party/2017/02/25/1fd76f52-fad7-11e6-9845-576c69081518_story.html?utm_term=.a5034d1f55b8

    Boy... the DNC is making the "this was a one-term president" a patriotic slogan again.


    Remember during the Obama Administration when hoping the President failed, and thus working to make him a one term President, was "treason" and "unpatriotic"?

     
       
    Made in us
    Thane of Dol Guldur




     Dreadclaw69 wrote:
     whembly wrote:
    Well... the Obama/Clinton wing narrowly won over the Bernie wing of the Democratic party in the DNC leadership election:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/tom-perez-elected-as-first-latino-leader-of-democratic-party/2017/02/25/1fd76f52-fad7-11e6-9845-576c69081518_story.html?utm_term=.a5034d1f55b8

    Boy... the DNC is making the "this was a one-term president" a patriotic slogan again.


    Remember during the Obama Administration when hoping the President failed, and thus working to make him a one term President, was "treason" and "unpatriotic"?


    Sad to see these folks going down the same path that the Republicans went down, where the worst thing that could happen is that the President does something good for the American people, because it would go against their predetermined position that the President is the worst guy to ever get elected.
       
    Made in se
    Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






    Sweden

     Dreadclaw69 wrote:
     whembly wrote:
    Well... the Obama/Clinton wing narrowly won over the Bernie wing of the Democratic party in the DNC leadership election:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/tom-perez-elected-as-first-latino-leader-of-democratic-party/2017/02/25/1fd76f52-fad7-11e6-9845-576c69081518_story.html?utm_term=.a5034d1f55b8

    Boy... the DNC is making the "this was a one-term president" a patriotic slogan again.


    Remember during the Obama Administration when hoping the President failed, and thus working to make him a one term President, was "treason" and "unpatriotic"?


    Funnily enough, I don't. I remember people blasting the Republicans (and rightly so) for effectively holding the government hostage in order to try to make Obama a one-term president, which isn't nearly the same thing as you're claiming happened.

    For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
       
    Made in be
    Longtime Dakkanaut





    So, on twitter, Trump commented the election of Thomas Perez, chairman of the DNC. First, it's pretty classical comment;


    "Congratulations to Thomas Perez, who has just been named Chairman of the DNC. I could not be happier for him, or for the Republican Party!"


    Then, barely 14h later, it becomes weird (well...somewhat unsurprising, sadly);


    "The race for DNC Chairman was, of course, totally "rigged." Bernie's guy, like Bernie himself, never had a chance. Clinton demanded Perez!"


    I guess he couldn't help it. Or maybe that's what his supporters wanted to hear and he felt compelled to add that after the comments on the first one?
       
    Made in us
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    On moon miranda.

     whembly wrote:
     LordofHats wrote:
    Of course he isn't going. The whole thing is a roast and Trump is incapable of accepting any criticism, even the funny and pointed kind that you're supposed to laugh at (though this has been true of the last three Republican administrations to some degree).

    Well...

    Can't say I blame him, this is in 2011:

    That just comes off as Obama being capable of using these sorts of things to his advantage when he was on the spot to great effect, and Trump being unable to match that ability.

    C'mon Whembly, the whole event is something of a roast, all presidents get their bum burned to some degree there, that's nothing new, and previous president's always showed up anyway, literal gunshot wounds being the only thing preventing previous president's from attending. If Trump can't deal with that, it betrays a startling lack of character, that nobody is surprised at at this point.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/26 17:17:57


    IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

    New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
    The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
       
    Made in se
    Longtime Dakkanaut




     Sarouan wrote:
    So, on twitter, Trump commented the election of Thomas Perez, chairman of the DNC. First, it's pretty classical comment;


    "Congratulations to Thomas Perez, who has just been named Chairman of the DNC. I could not be happier for him, or for the Republican Party!"


    Then, barely 14h later, it becomes weird (well...somewhat unsurprising, sadly);


    "The race for DNC Chairman was, of course, totally "rigged." Bernie's guy, like Bernie himself, never had a chance. Clinton demanded Perez!"


    I guess he couldn't help it. Or maybe that's what his supporters wanted to hear and he felt compelled to add that after the comments on the first one?


    It is perfectly accurate to say that Perez was given the position over Ellison to prevent the Democratic Party from moving leftwards at all.
       
    Made in us
    5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





    Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

     Dreadclaw69 wrote:
     whembly wrote:
    Well... the Obama/Clinton wing narrowly won over the Bernie wing of the Democratic party in the DNC leadership election:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/tom-perez-elected-as-first-latino-leader-of-democratic-party/2017/02/25/1fd76f52-fad7-11e6-9845-576c69081518_story.html?utm_term=.a5034d1f55b8

    Boy... the DNC is making the "this was a one-term president" a patriotic slogan again.


    Remember during the Obama Administration when hoping the President failed, and thus working to make him a one term President, was "treason" and "unpatriotic"?

    I 'member...

    Even when folks falsely accused The Turtle for years of wanting Obama to fail when he was elected... when he really said it in 2010.

    Must have took DNC chairman, what, less than 60 minutes to say that?

    Guess dissent is patriotic again.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Rosebuddy wrote:
     Sarouan wrote:
    So, on twitter, Trump commented the election of Thomas Perez, chairman of the DNC. First, it's pretty classical comment;


    "Congratulations to Thomas Perez, who has just been named Chairman of the DNC. I could not be happier for him, or for the Republican Party!"


    Then, barely 14h later, it becomes weird (well...somewhat unsurprising, sadly);


    "The race for DNC Chairman was, of course, totally "rigged." Bernie's guy, like Bernie himself, never had a chance. Clinton demanded Perez!"


    I guess he couldn't help it. Or maybe that's what his supporters wanted to hear and he felt compelled to add that after the comments on the first one?


    It is perfectly accurate to say that Perez was given the position over Ellison to prevent the Democratic Party from moving leftwards at all.

    That's true... but there's a schism in the Democratic party, in that there are an increase of folks who are wanting to move away from the Clintonites (ie, Perez).


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Vaktathi wrote:
    That just comes off as Obama being capable of using these sorts of things to his advantage when he was on the spot to great effect, and Trump being unable to match that ability.

    Of course. I've often argued that Trumpo is even more narcissist and thinned-skinned than Obama.

    C'mon Whembly, the whole event is something of a roast, all presidents get their bum burned to some degree there, that's nothing new, and previous president's always showed up anyway, literal gunshot wounds being the only thing preventing previous president's from attending. If Trump can't deal with that, it betrays a startling lack of character, that nobody is surprised at at this point.

    I get it. I really do... but, at the same time I don't blame Trump on this. Why give an obvious adversarial Press any more ammunition?

    This is me being acrimonious towards that media elites, rather than cheerleading Trumpo.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/26 17:20:56


    Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


     
       
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    Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





    Bristol

    Rosebuddy wrote:
     Sarouan wrote:
    So, on twitter, Trump commented the election of Thomas Perez, chairman of the DNC. First, it's pretty classical comment;


    "Congratulations to Thomas Perez, who has just been named Chairman of the DNC. I could not be happier for him, or for the Republican Party!"


    Then, barely 14h later, it becomes weird (well...somewhat unsurprising, sadly);


    "The race for DNC Chairman was, of course, totally "rigged." Bernie's guy, like Bernie himself, never had a chance. Clinton demanded Perez!"


    I guess he couldn't help it. Or maybe that's what his supporters wanted to hear and he felt compelled to add that after the comments on the first one?


    It is perfectly accurate to say that Perez was given the position over Ellison to prevent the Democratic Party from moving leftwards at all.


    Alternatively, Perez was given the position because he got more votes.

    The Laws of Thermodynamics:
    1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

    Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
     
       
    Made in us
    Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




    Catskills in NYS

     LordofHats wrote:
    Of course he isn't going. The whole thing is a roast and Trump is incapable of accepting any criticism, even the funny and pointed kind that you're supposed to laugh at (though this has been true of the last three Republican administrations to some degree).

    I absolutely loved Obama's, he was not scared to make fun of himself.

    Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
     kronk wrote:
    Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
     sebster wrote:
    Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
     BaronIveagh wrote:
    Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
     
       
     
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