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 cuda1179 wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Part of the subsidization of in-state tuition comes from taxes on purchases/services within the state. So unless they're entirely self-sufficient, growing everything they need and living from streams or whatever--they're paying part of that subsidization.

And, as of the last article on the subject that I read (admittedly, 2 years ago now) in the state of California, undocumented immigrants are "Worth" about 2 billion in state/local taxes. In some jurisdictions within California, they provide the bulk of the tax input for that location, so it's not like they are contributing what amounts to nothing.

Actually, according to the Government the average illegal immigrant recieved more back in tax returns than they ever contribute. Illegal immigrants contribute about 12 billion in taxes (that's all taxes, property, sales, income, gasoline, etc) in a fiscal year. That's about $980 per person. Far, far below the national average.

Of course that means those are all stolen SS #s which are royally ing the people who have those SS#s.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Part of the subsidization of in-state tuition comes from taxes on purchases/services within the state. So unless they're entirely self-sufficient, growing everything they need and living from streams or whatever--they're paying part of that subsidization.

And, as of the last article on the subject that I read (admittedly, 2 years ago now) in the state of California, undocumented immigrants are "Worth" about 2 billion in state/local taxes. In some jurisdictions within California, they provide the bulk of the tax input for that location, so it's not like they are contributing what amounts to nothing.

Actually, according to the Government the average illegal immigrant recieved more back in tax returns than they ever contribute. Illegal immigrants contribute about 12 billion in taxes (that's all taxes, property, sales, income, gasoline, etc) in a fiscal year. That's about $980 per person. Far, far below the national average.

I know a way to make sure both that we get the tax dollars, and they benifit.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Part of the subsidization of in-state tuition comes from taxes on purchases/services within the state. So unless they're entirely self-sufficient, growing everything they need and living from streams or whatever--they're paying part of that subsidization.

And, as of the last article on the subject that I read (admittedly, 2 years ago now) in the state of California, undocumented immigrants are "Worth" about 2 billion in state/local taxes. In some jurisdictions within California, they provide the bulk of the tax input for that location, so it's not like they are contributing what amounts to nothing.

Actually, according to the Government the average illegal immigrant recieved more back in tax returns than they ever contribute. Illegal immigrants contribute about 12 billion in taxes (that's all taxes, property, sales, income, gasoline, etc) in a fiscal year. That's about $980 per person. Far, far below the national average.

Got a source? Because at this point, 'according to the Government' could potentially mean 'Donald Trump's Twitter account'.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 feeder wrote:
No Frazz, they are technically citizens of another country. But in most ways that count, they are American. Why are you so hung up on a technicality?

Citizenship is a technicality? lol. That sounds like something Randy Quaid would have argued to the Canadian court when he was trying to get asylum there. Citizenship is NOT a technicality. In fact, it's central to immigration law to nearly every country on Earth. There's no statute of limitations in US immigration law that provides de facto citizenship if you can just stay under the radar for ten or fifteen years.

We are talking about kids who have spent most if not all of their lives in your country, and who want to help to make your country great again by increasing their knowledge and earning power through higher education.

This bizarre fixation with whether or not someone who has grown up in your country is 'legal' or not is puzzling to me. Surely to be an American is upholding her ideals and values, not possessing ze correct papers.

I find it bizarre that you think anyone has a right to be a citizen to any country they want just by living their illegally for any amount of time.

I wonder what the Canadian aborigines think of that view.

 feeder wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 feeder wrote:
No Frazz, they are technically citizens of another country. But in most ways that count, they are American. Why are you so hung up on a technicality?

Citizenship is a technicality? lol. That sounds like something Randy Quaid would have argued to the Canadian court when he was trying to get asylum there. Citizenship is NOT a technicality. In fact, it's central to immigration law to nearly every country on Earth. There's no statute of limitations in US immigration law that provides de facto citizenship if you can just stay under the radar for ten or fifteen years.

We are talking about kids who have spent most if not all of their lives in your country, and who want to help to make your country great again by increasing their knowledge and earning power through higher education.

This bizarre fixation with whether or not someone who has grown up in your country is 'legal' or not is puzzling to me. Surely to be an American is upholding her ideals and values, not possessing ze correct papers.

I find it bizarre that you think anyone has a right to be a citizen to any country they want just by living their illegally for any amount of time.

That's how our countries were founded, brah. We just showed up and never left.

Seriously, though. We are talking about kids and young adults trying to go to school. This is a good thing and should be encouraged, because more educated member of society makes your country great.

These kids exist and the US can try to help turn them into functioning, productive Americans, or help create more MS-13 members by persecuting them for a crime they had no hand in.

Sending people back to their home country is persecution?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 feeder wrote:
No Frazz, they are technically citizens of another country. But in most ways that count, they are American. Why are you so hung up on a technicality?

Citizenship is a technicality? lol. That sounds like something Randy Quaid would have argued to the Canadian court when he was trying to get asylum there. Citizenship is NOT a technicality. In fact, it's central to immigration law to nearly every country on Earth. There's no statute of limitations in US immigration law that provides de facto citizenship if you can just stay under the radar for ten or fifteen years.

We are talking about kids who have spent most if not all of their lives in your country, and who want to help to make your country great again by increasing their knowledge and earning power through higher education.

This bizarre fixation with whether or not someone who has grown up in your country is 'legal' or not is puzzling to me. Surely to be an American is upholding her ideals and values, not possessing ze correct papers.

I find it bizarre that you think anyone has a right to be a citizen to any country they want just by living their illegally for any amount of time.

That's how our countries were founded, brah. We just showed up and never left.

Seriously, though. We are talking about kids and young adults trying to go to school. This is a good thing and should be encouraged, because more educated member of society makes your country great.

These kids exist and the US can try to help turn them into functioning, productive Americans, or help create more MS-13 members by persecuting them for a crime they had no hand in.

Sending people back to their home country is persecution?

It is if America is all they've known or essentially known.

Hypothetical: it turns out your parents were Czechs that overstayed their visa and suddenly you get deported to your 'home' country of Czechia. I'm sure you'd be thrilled.


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 Frazzled wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 feeder wrote:
No Frazz, they are technically citizens of another country. But in most ways that count, they are American. Why are you so hung up on a technicality?

Citizenship is a technicality? lol. That sounds like something Randy Quaid would have argued to the Canadian court when he was trying to get asylum there. Citizenship is NOT a technicality. In fact, it's central to immigration law to nearly every country on Earth. There's no statute of limitations in US immigration law that provides de facto citizenship if you can just stay under the radar for ten or fifteen years.

We are talking about kids who have spent most if not all of their lives in your country, and who want to help to make your country great again by increasing their knowledge and earning power through higher education.

This bizarre fixation with whether or not someone who has grown up in your country is 'legal' or not is puzzling to me. Surely to be an American is upholding her ideals and values, not possessing ze correct papers.

I find it bizarre that you think anyone has a right to be a citizen to any country they want just by living their illegally for any amount of time.

I wonder what the Canadian aborigines think of that view.

Like any group consisting of hundreds of thousands of individuals, the people of the Canadian First Nations hold wildly differing views on the subject of colonisation.

Then why does Canada have border security and turn back illegal aliens? They just want to live and get an education. Why are Canadians so heartiness? *


*Because they aren't heartless and your argument doesn't hold.

 Frazzled wrote:
Then why does Canada have border security and turn back illegal aliens? They just want to live and get an education. Why are Canadians so heartiness? *


*Because they aren't heartless and your argument doesn't hold.

Look, don't get the idea that I think everyone in the world should be allowed to fly to the US and become a citizen tomorrow. I'm talking very specifically about kids who are already there and are already de facto Americans. They grew up there and have little or no ties to their "home" country. These people exist and should be encouraged to become productive members of the society they are already a part of.

 feeder wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Then why does Canada have border security and turn back illegal aliens? They just want to live and get an education. Why are Canadians so heartiness? *


*Because they aren't heartless and your argument doesn't hold.

Look, don't get the idea that I think everyone in the world should be allowed to fly to the US and become a citizen tomorrow. I'm talking very specifically about kids who are already there and are already de facto Americans. They grew up there and have little or no ties to their "home" country. These people exist and should be encouraged to become productive members of the society they are already a part of.

If it were up to me. Being an illegal immigrant in this country would be impossible. All we need to do is make laws and systems that make living her illegally to be impossible. Then these "persecuted families" will just leave on their own.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Then why does Canada have border security and turn back illegal aliens? They just want to live and get an education. Why are Canadians so heartiness? *


*Because they aren't heartless and your argument doesn't hold.

Look, don't get the idea that I think everyone in the world should be allowed to fly to the US and become a citizen tomorrow. I'm talking very specifically about kids who are already there and are already de facto Americans. They grew up there and have little or no ties to their "home" country. These people exist and should be encouraged to become productive members of the society they are already a part of.

If it were up to me. Being an illegal immigrant in this country would be impossible. All we need to do is make laws and systems that make living her illegally to be impossible. Then these "persecuted families" will just leave on their own.

Fair enough, but that's fantasy land.

Meanwhile, we have real people living in real situations and we should be encouraging them to better themselves for the good of society.

We should scale up the difficulty of living here illegally and scale down the difficulty of getting legal access. Attack the problem from both ends.


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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
As always, here's a quick update for American dakka members on the UK situation. It'll save you from wading through dozens of pages.

Article 50 is on. The official withdrawal letter has been signed by the Prime Minister and will be handed to Donald Tusk, President of the European Commission. at 12:30pm GMT today.

Prime Minister May is calling for Britain to unite as one and get behind her ahead of the crucial Brexit talks which will probably begin in the month of May or June...

BUT

Northern Ireland has no government, as the power sharing agreement collapsed. There is talk of unification with the Republic of Ireland...

and the Scottish Parliament (our 'state legislature') just voted for another independence referendum by 69 votes to 59.

So, not quite a United Kingdom

But Donald Trump promised us a good trade deal, so we look forward to a bright new dawn with our American friends and allies under the visionary leadership of President Trump

Thanks for the update!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Stevefamine wrote:
So far he's been doing exactly what I've wanted.

Remember when I said to Whembly that he was an instrument of evil, and then explained how it was not a violation of rule #1 because I didn't call him evil, I just insisted on the consequences of his action?
I'm very very close to telling you that you are evil .

 Stevefamine wrote:
This is when you watch "Ben Shapiro vs Black Lives Matter" YouTube 5 minute clip, proceed to self destruct and block me (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__Vj3DXwOBI)

Oh, I do?
Fake news! I have the best self-destructions, the best ones! Your auto-destructions are the failed attempts of a dying man! Sad! My hands are bigger.
But yeah, I love when someone tells me “This video will definitely infuriate you but won't convince you at all”, because then I know it's just trolling and I can safely ignore it without taking the risk of missing something of value .

lol your guy wrote a book entitled “Porn Generation: How Social Liberalism Is Corrupting Our Future” .

Ben Shapiro is a fething noodle - I actually disagree with him the majority of the time. I disliked him during the primaries and he reminds me of Shkreli in how he works. Everything he stated in that video was ACCURATE. I'll stand by his views on african american youth and failure of a culture fully. From growing up in NYC and Camden NJ - it's the truth.

Location: France

Not evil whatsoever good sir! The off topic section on Dakka is highly liberal, live a fairly closed off hermit /safe space lifestyle, or located in other countries. I simply attribute that to the issue we've had during most of this election with mob mentality. If the majority of the thread is trump bashing, democrat, liberal, adults with full time careers and families - you get the same circle jerk of posts. I'm not incapable of understanding other's views - but similar to Frazzled in this thread anything not fitting of the thread's/reddits/CNN's rhetoric is torched. I had posters earlier recommend me Salon.com as good news source


You have opened my eyes to the issues with Sessions and DeVos.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Even if you like his agenda, the dude and the people he choses are just so inept and inexperienced that they cant get anything done, they dont understand the systems and administrations they're in charge of.

Agreed - DeVos is terrifying and I only like Sessions because he is anti-drug

 Ahtman wrote:

 Stevefamine wrote:
I do love my country

Well now I am confused because I thought you were pro Trump. Loving your country and loving an infantile, narcissistic con-man are incompatible ideas. It would be akin to espousing love for Christianity and love for Objectivism. In being for both one would either have to lie to themselves (and others) about one and/or profoundly misunderstand at least one of them.

My favorite Ayn Rand piece is the Romantic Manifesto.
I also volunteer weekly at church.

You can understand both at once

 Frazzled wrote:
Of course that means those are all stolen SS #s which are royally ing the people who have those SS#s.

I had to clear 8k in debt from 2007. Literally from a place called TexMex FCU and no one spoke English to clear it up when I discovered it at age 20. Th-thanks identify theft






Also: Sanders Can Still Win the Election in ONE simple LEGAL loophole

 Stevefamine wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 Stevefamine wrote:
I do love my country

Well now I am confused because I thought you were pro Trump. Loving your country and loving an infantile, narcissistic con-man are incompatible ideas. It would be akin to espousing love for Christianity and love for Objectivism. In being for both one would either have to lie to themselves (and others) about one and/or profoundly misunderstand at least one of them.

My favorite Ayn Rand piece is the Romantic Manifesto.
I also volunteer weekly at church.

You can understand both at once

My problem with Rand is getting onboard with her train of thought requires me to hate everyone who isn't me and assume they are all trying to murder me and devour my corpse. *

*Source: I got part way through Atlas Shrugged in high school before realising that literally anything else I could be doing would be a better use of my time.

 Breotan wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I've seen the argument that Trump is already a lame duck president, having burned his political capital by daring the GOP to vote against the AHCA. He has signed no legislation worth mentioning, has nothing in the works, a White House full of infighting, and a giant cloud over his head with Russia.

I found an article about tax cuts that makes similar points.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_TAX_OVERHAUL_THEN_AND_NOW?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2017-03-28-03-50-11

Essentially the article details why President Trump is unable to affect change the way President Reagan did. It shows just how much work President Trump has ahead of him if he wants to actually accomplish anything.

We're only two months into his Presidency but I agree with you that unless something changes, he will very likely be a one-term President.

he might not make it that far.

He's polling at around 35% -- and mind he's had no serious external issues to deal with yet.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx

all the crap they've done or failed to anticipate or caused has been both predictable and/or internal USA politics only.



..so you're now going to build the wall *in* Mexico then ...?

TBF it's probably where the labour will come from anyway.

the whole presidency thus far summed up in one clip

So, what, are we going to invade Mexico and steal their territory? Force them to sell the boarder territory to us? feth's sake.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 feeder wrote:
No Frazz, they are technically citizens of another country. But in most ways that count, they are American. Why are you so hung up on a technicality?

Citizenship is a technicality? lol. That sounds like something Randy Quaid would have argued to the Canadian court when he was trying to get asylum there. Citizenship is NOT a technicality. In fact, it's central to immigration law to nearly every country on Earth. There's no statute of limitations in US immigration law that provides de facto citizenship if you can just stay under the radar for ten or fifteen years.

We are talking about kids who have spent most if not all of their lives in your country, and who want to help to make your country great again by increasing their knowledge and earning power through higher education.

This bizarre fixation with whether or not someone who has grown up in your country is 'legal' or not is puzzling to me. Surely to be an American is upholding her ideals and values, not possessing ze correct papers.

I find it bizarre that you think anyone has a right to be a citizen to any country they want just by living their illegally for any amount of time.

I wonder what the Canadian aborigines think of that view.

If there can be legal prescription for acquiring land within 10 years, why couldn't there be legal prescription to acquire citizenship within 10 years as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Then why does Canada have border security and turn back illegal aliens? They just want to live and get an education. Why are Canadians so heartiness? *

Because we live North of you. All those refugees need help after trekking 5 hours in the snow.

And in case there's a wild texan hiding within the crowd. Our people have a right to be spared that.

Hey look I spotted the 'everything that isn't liberal agenda gets shot down' argument! Looks like the GOP supporters ran out of evidence once again. At least Whembly has the dignity to fall silent rather than throw up that lame excuse.

I feel like if you are brave enough to make the trip through Mexico to the US, then make it across the border and survive without getting caught, you are the type of go getter we need here in America,

 Dreadwinter wrote:
I feel like if you are brave enough to make the trip through Mexico to the US, then make it across the border and survive without getting caught, you are the type of go getter we need here in America,

I more or less agree, but that doesn't suddenly make them legal. We need accessible means for people like this to gain legal access. That way we can be more strict on illegal immigrants while maintaining part of what makes the US so great in the first place. At the end of the day immigration isn't going to disappear so we need to decide how we manage the immigrants.

 Stevefamine wrote:
Everything he stated in that video was ACCURATE.

You know, you gave me the best reasons not to watch it, so… I didn't watch it. If you want to troll me, you'll have to do it yourself.

 Stevefamine wrote:
Location: France

.

 Stevefamine wrote:
Not evil whatsoever good sir!

They all say that, don't they .

 Stevefamine wrote:
adults with full time careers and families

 Stevefamine wrote:
You have opened my eyes to the issues with Sessions and DeVos.

 reds8n wrote:
he might not make it that far.

He's polling at around 35% -- and mind he's had no serious external issues to deal with yet.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx

all the crap they've done or failed to anticipate or caused has been both predictable and/or internal USA politics only.

To be fair, presidents have gotten big popularity boosts in the past when *something* geopolitical happens.

But also to be fair, there's ample reason to suggest that he's not going to conduct himself in a conventional manner in the face of geopolitical *something*.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So, what, are we going to invade Mexico and steal their territory? Force them to sell the boarder territory to us? feth's sake.

"well actually, now that you mention it..."
-Certain questions you shouldn't ask a Texan about Mexico.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
I feel like if you are brave enough to make the trip through Mexico to the US, then make it across the border and survive without getting caught, you are the type of go getter we need here in America,

And if you're the people competing for those jobs, who's wages get trashed because of it, well those guys right?

 Frazzled wrote:


And if you're the people competing for those jobs, who's wages get trashed because of it, well those guys right?

Well, are you a libertarian or aren't you, Frazz?

 Frazzled wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So, what, are we going to invade Mexico and steal their territory? Force them to sell the boarder territory to us? feth's sake.

"well actually, now that you mention it..."
-Certain questions you shouldn't ask a Texan about Mexico.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
I feel like if you are brave enough to make the trip through Mexico to the US, then make it across the border and survive without getting caught, you are the type of go getter we need here in America,

And if you're the people competing for those jobs, who's wages get trashed because of it, well those guys right?

Maybe we should set a higher minimum and then legalize all of the illegal immigrants. Then they will contribute and the companies would be required to pay them a living wage. This would also help with bringing money in to communities, because now these illegal immigrants are making more money so they can spend a little more. Helping local business.

OR WE COULD BUILD THAT WALL!!!!!!!!

 feeder wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


And if you're the people competing for those jobs, who's wages get trashed because of it, well those guys right?

Well, are you a libertarian or aren't you, Frazz?

I am the son of a man who worked in a dying industry and was laid off for two years and watched it nearly destroy him. I think you might gain the barest of an inkling how I feel about it.

Was he a cobbler or a hatter or a blacksmith? Cause those professions sort of died out, and I can totally empathize because they have neater names than internal network technician. Of course it was those horrible dirty politicians who drove those proud men out of their homes, not a changing world and developing marketplace with new innovative technologies that made them obsolete. Your sadness over your father is getting in the way of appreciating the world he helped to build.

steel forging industry.
I also know lots of trades guys owning construction. you know who they won't hire? Americans.

but again feth those guys right?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
I feel like if you are brave enough to make the trip through Mexico to the US, then make it across the border and survive without getting caught, you are the type of go getter we need here in America,

I more or less agree, but that doesn't suddenly make them legal. We need accessible means for people like this to gain legal access. That way we can be more strict on illegal immigrants while maintaining part of what makes the US so great in the first place. At the end of the day immigration isn't going to disappear so we need to decide how we manage the immigrants.

The problem with all of this, is that a lot of this is tied into false economic narratives. If you look at the majority of the work being done by undocumented workers, it's the type that, despite GOP supporters crying out "they are taking our jobs!!!" are the exact type of work that most GOP supporters frown on, and refuse to do. It's also the type of work that the CEOs for the companies the work is being done for, don't want to be forced to pay more fore, in part because it will show what a lie and a scam they've been running for years, with their trickle-down policy efforts.



In other news, there is this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/reliable-source/wp/2017/03/28/white-house-staff-to-skip-correspondents-dinner-in-solidarity-with-trump/?utm_term=.aa68228b0bb9

Apparently, because Cheeto-in-Chief can't take a joke, neither can anyone else.... Bunch of thin-skinned whiners.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Was he a cobbler or a hatter or a blacksmith? Cause those professions sort of died out, and I can totally empathize because they have neater names than internal network technician. Of course it was those horrible dirty politicians who drove those proud men out of their homes, not a changing world and developing marketplace with new innovative technologies that made them obsolete. Your sadness over your father is getting in the way of appreciating the world he helped to build.

Gordon, you missed a glorious chance to use "haberdasher" in a sentence.

Frazz, while I have sympathy for your father's woes it's not like protectionism is one of the planks of libertarian political theory, is it.

 Stevefamine wrote:
I only like Sessions because he is anti-drug

I'm rather horrified that you'd say this, given the complete failure of the war on drugs. And besides, isn't the republican party supposed to be big on personal responsibility? Why is it suddenly good to have nanny-state regulations about what drugs you're allowed to use?