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Except overwatch can't be ignored.
Unless of course your unit has an ability to prevent it.

So adding in a 250 or so point model makes it even? Lol.
Really is a pointless discussion then.


As for a unit, throw 5 LC termies in cover for you to charge.
If you want your LR, make it 10.

Going to stick up a bit for the DCA just now. The inquisitor he's got tagging along means the cover is irrelevant because they have grenades so they go at initiative in cover.

But anyway, 50 man conscript, priest, Inquisitor with rad and pyskotroke grenades. 230 points. Because we are ignoring the randomness of the game I won't take overwatch but I'll use the one I want for the grenade effect. I'll take the hit you automatically and you only get 1 attack effect. I think I win this.

This kinda seems like you thought you were a special snowflake but then people showed you that the deathcult assassins are not the best in CC so you are just playing the "I win, im right game".

If they were the best CC unit wouldnt you see more of them? The only time I have seen them on the field is once when they went against my ork boys........my ork boys won that fight (hot dice or poor on my opponents dice idk but yeah, some sluggas with a nob and painboy cleaned up 7 of those ladies)

In a vacuum where you get to make up all the scenarios and rules you want, i am sure they are fantastic. So to that I say in my vacuum, necron flayed ones are the best thing ever!

Edit: are they good in CC sure, do I know who is the best in CC? No cause that is a rigged question. Too many variables that have to actually take effect. Also the DCA need to be at least St8 and AP2 to be in the top tier of CC

 Jackal wrote:
Except overwatch can't be ignored.
Unless of course your unit has an ability to prevent it.

So adding in a 250 or so point model makes it even? Lol.
Really is a pointless discussion then.


As for a unit, throw 5 LC termies in cover for you to charge.
If you want your LR, make it 10.

it could have been a rhino for 35 points it doesn't matter the fact was it was just to show you that including overwatch or shooting in the shooting phase is dependent on so many factors and I don't want to use that. I am doing a comparison of combat v combat, like I said go make a thread of your own if you wanna talk about overwatch


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Solosam47 wrote:
This kinda seems like you thought you were a special snowflake but then people showed you that the deathcult assassins are not the best in CC so you are just playing the "I win, im right game".

If they were the best CC unit wouldnt you see more of them? The only time I have seen them on the field is once when they went against my ork boys........my ork boys won that fight (hot dice or poor on my opponents dice idk but yeah, some sluggas with a nob and painboy cleaned up 7 of those ladies)

In a vacuum where you get to make up all the scenarios and rules you want, i am sure they are fantastic. So to that I say in my vacuum, necron flayed ones are the best thing ever!

Edit: are they good in CC sure, do I know who is the best in CC? No cause that is a rigged question. Too many variables that have to actually take effect. Also the DCA need to be at least St8 and AP2 to be in the top tier of CC

erm no one has put any unit that can beat them in combat lol people are trying to say they will shoot them to beat them which highlights they are one of the best in combat

Even with no overwatch conscripts canbeat a DCA charge I reckon. As they're bunched up in a blob of 50 base to base (cos we're not shooting) in a rough square they should be able to get into CC at their initiative step.

DCA kill approx 29 conscripts on average on the charge (accounting for rerolls to hit and the chance of war hymns). DCA lose around 6 models to retaliation attacks (again accounting for rerolls to hit and the chance of war hymns)

Next round the 4 DCAs kill a further 7 models and the 14 remainaing conscripts kill 3 DCAs.

If they win on the charge, and at least are pretty close when they get charged, I'd argue they're better. Their shooting further improves the unit, but isn't relevant in this situation.

No, it highlights your lack of ability to put things into perspective.

Being the best unit in combat does not rely solely on the fighting its self.

In a game the conditions your making people meet are impossible and will never happen.
It's physically impossible to create the scenario you are talking about.

So no, they are nowhere near the best combat unit unless we are playing a game in your bubble of magic circumstances.

If however you want more from the unit, throw in a pair of crusaders as a sponge.
Granted they are low attacks, but in the real world you will get shot at, these help prevent the damage of this.

"erm no one has put any unit that can beat them in combat lol people are trying to say they will shoot them to beat them which highlights they are one of the best in combat"

See this is literally what everyone is talking about though, you are being a snowflake. Wulfen were brought up who statistically took them out, even if they all had to die. 50 conscripts were put up who by sheer weight of attacks can kill them (to this you claimed not all of them could attack but on the flip side nevermind their overwatch, if this was strickly about CC vs CC then you do have to count all of their attacks, but again its your special vacuum)

LC termies, Honor guard, Slaanesh daemons, Banshees, ect.

Anything that can naturally take away your init or has a 2+ armour, or an invuln will put a smudge on your special snowflake.

This thread has become pointless thanks to your lack of having any real ideas other than "Im right your wrong".

For sake of it all though please continue to argue with folks and claim your warhammer superiority, Shine on my little snowflake

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Except overwatch can't be ignored.
Unless of course your unit has an ability to prevent it.

So adding in a 250 or so point model makes it even? Lol.
Really is a pointless discussion then.


As for a unit, throw 5 LC termies in cover for you to charge.
If you want your LR, make it 10.

it could have been a rhino for 35 points it doesn't matter the fact was it was just to show you that including overwatch or shooting in the shooting phase is dependent on so many factors and I don't want to use that. I am doing a comparison of combat v combat, like I said go make a thread of your own if you wanna talk about overwatch


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Solosam47 wrote:
This kinda seems like you thought you were a special snowflake but then people showed you that the deathcult assassins are not the best in CC so you are just playing the "I win, im right game".

If they were the best CC unit wouldnt you see more of them? The only time I have seen them on the field is once when they went against my ork boys........my ork boys won that fight (hot dice or poor on my opponents dice idk but yeah, some sluggas with a nob and painboy cleaned up 7 of those ladies)

In a vacuum where you get to make up all the scenarios and rules you want, i am sure they are fantastic. So to that I say in my vacuum, necron flayed ones are the best thing ever!

Edit: are they good in CC sure, do I know who is the best in CC? No cause that is a rigged question. Too many variables that have to actually take effect. Also the DCA need to be at least St8 and AP2 to be in the top tier of CC

erm no one has put any unit that can beat them in combat lol people are trying to say they will shoot them to beat them which highlights they are one of the best in combat

Guys, don't bother, if you've seen his threads from before he will literally talk in circles continually adding and tweaking "what he originally meant" into making it seem as if his conclusion is the only one that matters or exists. He did a similar thing with his Jokaero squad death star thread where people pointed out its many flaws and he kept on going, even saying this little gem from this thread in response to being called out for converting the slits on a skyshield landing pad so his Jokaero would shoot more effectively:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/592578.page#6786703

I hope I don't get arrested......

There is no cheating involved in my opinion. GW created the skyshield with the intention all models could use it. It is a design fault that certain models are too small to see over it, it wasn't GW intention that joakero's official model could not use the skyshield/aegis defence line.

There is nothing stopping me from buying a different model that is slightly taller and playing it as a joakero so that it can see over the skyshield so what is the problem with using the official model? I could even use the official model and just put it on a slightly taller base so it can see over the skyshield and there would be no problem.

Are we going to let design faults ruin our game or are we going to use common sense?

I'm not sure why he posts if he doesn't want input, but I guess he's fishing for the few people who may misguidedly agree with him.

 HANZERtank wrote:
Going to stick up a bit for the DCA just now. The inquisitor he's got tagging along means the cover is irrelevant because they have grenades so they go at initiative in cover.

But anyway, 50 man conscript, priest, Inquisitor with rad and pyskotroke grenades. 230 points. Because we are ignoring the randomness of the game I won't take overwatch but I'll use the one I want for the grenade effect. I'll take the hit you automatically and you only get 1 attack effect. I think I win this.

Just going to bump this up as I'm pretty sure it beats them at least half the time.

 HANZERtank wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
Going to stick up a bit for the DCA just now. The inquisitor he's got tagging along means the cover is irrelevant because they have grenades so they go at initiative in cover.

But anyway, 50 man conscript, priest, Inquisitor with rad and pyskotroke grenades. 230 points. Because we are ignoring the randomness of the game I won't take overwatch but I'll use the one I want for the grenade effect. I'll take the hit you automatically and you only get 1 attack effect. I think I win this.

Just going to bump this up as I'm pretty sure it beats them at least half the time.

I like your rules of hitting automatically and the opponent only getting a single attack.

Im sure that those rules can make nurglings sooooooo good in CC....maybe even....THE BEST!

 Solosam47 wrote:

"erm no one has put any unit that can beat them in combat lol people are trying to say they will shoot them to beat them which highlights they are one of the best in combat"

See this is literally what everyone is talking about though, you are being a snowflake. Wulfen were brought up who statistically took them out, even if they all had to die. 50 conscripts were put up who by sheer weight of attacks can kill them (to this you claimed not all of them could attack but on the flip side nevermind their overwatch, if this was strickly about CC vs CC then you do have to count all of their attacks, but again its your special vacuum)

LC termies, Honor guard, Slaanesh daemons, Banshees, ect.

Anything that can naturally take away your init or has a 2+ armour, or an invuln will put a smudge on your special snowflake.

This thread has become pointless thanks to your lack of having any real ideas other than "Im right your wrong".

For sake of it all though please continue to argue with folks and claim your warhammer superiority, Shine on my little snowflake

the wulfen never statistically took them out because he failed to include the fact I have a 5+ REROLLABLE save and also the MINUS 1 to the wulfen toughness o I am wounding them on 3s not 4s

In this situation I'd just tarpit him, 35 plague zombies come out at 150 points exactly. And if he can bring a LR, can I bring Typhus? Even if i slap the mark of nurgle on the unit, the zombies and typus would cost less than his DCA, the priest and the LR he took

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:

"erm no one has put any unit that can beat them in combat lol people are trying to say they will shoot them to beat them which highlights they are one of the best in combat"

See this is literally what everyone is talking about though, you are being a snowflake. Wulfen were brought up who statistically took them out, even if they all had to die. 50 conscripts were put up who by sheer weight of attacks can kill them (to this you claimed not all of them could attack but on the flip side nevermind their overwatch, if this was strickly about CC vs CC then you do have to count all of their attacks, but again its your special vacuum)

LC termies, Honor guard, Slaanesh daemons, Banshees, ect.

Anything that can naturally take away your init or has a 2+ armour, or an invuln will put a smudge on your special snowflake.

This thread has become pointless thanks to your lack of having any real ideas other than "Im right your wrong".

For sake of it all though please continue to argue with folks and claim your warhammer superiority, Shine on my little snowflake

the wulfen never statistically took them out because he failed to include the fact I have a 5+ REROLLABLE save and also the MINUS 1 to the wulfen toughness o I am wounding them on 3s not 4s

He DID include the 5+ rerollable. He didn't include the minus 1, because the Wulfen and a Priest only cost 175 points, so giving you the Inquisitor would mean giving you an unfair advantage in points.



Honestly, there are so many choices that are equal or better than assassins. Chapter Master Smashfather, ON HIS OWN WITHOUT ANY SUPPORT, will kill them. 5 Bully Boyz will take only one wound after being charged, then put three back on the Assassins. (Assuming you take the re-rollable saves instead of the re-rolls to wound.) Once you lose your charge bonuses, you're going to cause barely half a wound while taking equivalent casualties. A Great Unclean One will just ignore your attacks, all the while beating you into paste. Or, heck, a Daemon Prince with one of the many ways to get a 2+ armor (Or, in the case of Tzeentch, a 3+ Invuln that re-rolls 1s,) will just save everything you have to throw at it.

Are we allowing Psychic Powers that buff close combat ability? Because you're giving yourself the ideal circumstances, so why can't I? If that's the case, then I'm just going to take Tigurius, roll up Warp Speed, Iron Arm, and Might of Heroes in order to get a T9 model who you literally cannot hurt (Even with Rad Grenades), and who gets 9 attacks at S10 that strike at I9. That's not going to be a fight you can win.

If we're doing plague zombies, might as well make them R+H zombies - 3pts per model

Okay-here's the deal. In the spoiler below, I have a list. I challege you to, without looking in the spoiler, make a list that will beat it. It's 1850 points.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay-here's the deal. In the spoiler below, I have a list. I challege you to, without looking in the spoiler, make a list that will beat it. It's 1850 points.

Spoiler:

Aquila Kill Team
110-Librarian, ML2, Auspex, Melta Bombs, Combat Shield
260-5 Veterans, all with Storm Shields, 4 Frag Cannons
35-Drop Pod

Knight Detachment
440-Knight Crusader with Battle Cannon and Reaper Gatling Gun

White Scars CAD
145-Cataphractii Captain, Melta Bombs, Hunter's Eye
125-Cataphractii Captain, Melta Bombs
70-5 Scouts, Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks
70-5 Scouts, Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks
245-5 Devastators, 4 Grav Cannons, Drop Pod
145-5 Devastators, 4 Multi Meltas, Drop Pod
100-Thunderfire Cannon
35-Drop Pod
35-Drop Pod
35-Drop Pod

So, imma be honest here - I didn't actually write any lists for this. I have some standard 2k and 1.5k lists that I use regularly, so I just briefly ran over them in my head before looking at the spoiler.
My lists?
Ork Hordes
Iron Hands Tank Gunline
Iron Hands Drop Pod Assault w/ Deathwatch (It's actually very similar to yours, just with more psykers and the Iron Hands special detachment, to get the buffed FNP)

In order, these lists would:
Probably win
Probably lose
Tossup, dependent on tactics


The Ork Horde would kick your butt, because you've only got two and a half weapons that can deal with hordes. The Frag Cannons will certainly kill one big unit, but that's all - I'm going to target them and obliterate them as soon as I can. The Thunderfire Cannon will put on some wounds, but if I'm spread out, it's not going to come close to killing any single unit quickly. Lastly, the Knight will cause some pretty hefty damage, but he's almost 500 points, and his damage output isn't overwhelming. Grav Cannons? Almost useless. Multi-Meltas? Also almost useless. I'm going to bowl over you with numbers that you just don't have a real recourse for.

My Tank Line will, of course, get its butt kicked. Even if I exploit Cawl in order to get a 4++ on most of my army, you've got too much Grav, Melta, and Frag for me to survive.

And my Drop Pod list is going to really depend on who gets first turn and who has the better luck - It's nearly a mirror match, except that I have FNP and one of your units gets Ignores Cover. (Though I do have more ObjecSec than you...)



Can I ask why you brought this up here, though?

 HANZERtank wrote:
Going to stick up a bit for the DCA just now. The inquisitor he's got tagging along means the cover is irrelevant because they have grenades so they go at initiative in cover.

Quibble - assault grenades affect the model (not unit) that use them. The Inquisitor would strike at initiative. The DCA won't. There's also the chance that your gaming group interprets the "only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase" rule as disallowing the inquisitor from using frag grenades and rad grenades in the same phase.

Maybe they house rule it to where the entire unit is affected. That's what they do here. One lord with a grenade can negate the penalty for 10 warp talons.

It was directed at Mr. DCA, not you.

And I know it's not the best-that's half the point

24 charging Wyches with a lucky initiative roll on the drugs table.

72 attacks, 36 hits, 18 wounds, 12 dead assassins before you get to do anything. 8 dead even with save rerolls. You hit back to do a little damage and then die in the next round.

Actually the wyches with +1 I might not even need the charge - they would kill half the unit anyway. The assassins hit back and kill 5. So combat would be quite equal but the next round the wyches would mop up most of what remains of the unit.

Or 10 charging Harlequins all with Embraces. I guess you could say "well I would clump my models to make getting into base to base difficult" but there is limited scope for that given the size of the squad.

Which means Reavers would probably kill them too.

Edit-

Actually ignore some of the above. You can only have 15 Wyches in a unit. Because GW looked upon and knew they were the terror of the earth.

Still if you made them Bloodbrides (what?) I think you might still have something. 60 attacks on the charge, 6.6 dead assassins if they reroll saves.

Oh, here's a fun comparison:
4 Crusaders and 9 Arco-Flagellants with a Priest and an Inquisitor. It's the same cost as the Assassin. 4 models with a rerollable 3++ will tank all of the attacks easily (They'll take 3 wounds, leaving one Crusader,) and then the 9 Arco-Flagellants will cause 10 wounds, even with a re-rollable Invuln.

That's assuming ideal conditions for the attacking Arco-Flagellants, by the way. They still get their butts kicked while causing almost no damage. Fun!

(For another fun comparison: 5 stock Custudoes. On the charge the assassins will kill 1, and then after that they will never have the damage output to kill another before they're killed, because they're taking 3 wounds a turn.)

Could try an Imperial or renegade Knight. Stomp them into a fine paste.

A 6 man unit of grotesques with an abberation from a grotesquerie would probably shred them pretty well, especially if they roll +1 toughness for the bonus. Each one outputs 6 attacks(7 for the abberation) at strength 5 (potentially higher with the formation upgrades, or furious charge) with poison, and instant death on 6's to wound.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
A 6 man unit of grotesques with an abberation from a grotesquerie would probably shred them pretty well, especially if they roll +1 toughness for the bonus. Each one outputs 6 attacks(7 for the abberation) at strength 5 (potentially higher with the formation upgrades, or furious charge) with poison, and instant death on 6's to wound.

Speaking of which, 5 Chaos Spawn with the Mark of Nurgle could do the trick. It's only 180 points, so no extra points for the Assassins to get an Inquisitor. They're beasts, so they're definitely going to be the ones charging. If the Assassins go for re-rolling wounds, they'll kill two, but then lose an average of 4 assassins, assuming the Spawn roll 3 attacks. If they roll 6 attacks, then 7 Assassins will die. If they roll 1 attack, that's still an average of 2.5 dead Assassins.

If the Assassins go for re-rolling saves, they'll only kill 1 Spawn, halving their damage output, but only reducing the damage that they take by 1/5th or so, because they're taking attacks from another enemy.

champagne_socialist wrote:
So I have been using them for a while and there is no unit that I have gone into combat with that I have struggled to kill or that I have held my own and tied the combat.

A unit of 10 death cult assassins (150pts) and a priest is 175 pts. give the priest the relic that lets him always pass war hyms and that squad is 190 pts. I like to add my hq to this squad which is an inquisitor and I give the inquisitor rad grenades which give the enemy -1 toughness.

The priest gives the death cult assassins zealot so they are fearless and re-roll to hits in combat. as the death cult assassins are ws5 they usually hit on 3s and that is re-rolling due to the priest.

on the charge the death cult assassins have 4 attacks ap3 which with war hyms you can re-roll to wounds.

if the assassins are against an enemy which is superior then they can use the war hyms to re-roll their invun saves 5+.

so for a unit of 10 assassins a priest and an inquisitor with rad grenades we are looking at 230pts. on the charge that is 40 str 4 ap3 attacks that re-roll to hit, re-roll to wound and strike at initative 6 and the enemy is -1 toughness due to the inquisitors rad grenades.

is there a close combat unit that can handle this unit that is similer points?

An Ironclad dreadnaught. You can't touch AV13, he costs less than you and you get tarpitted for the remainder of the game and I'm up ~100 points.

Alternately, if you want an infantry unit - A squad of Thousand Sons Scarab Occult Terminators as part of a maxed out war cabal. It'll take them 8 rounds of combat, but they'll lose ~2 termies in exchange for all 10 DCA's. The Inquisitor and priest would cop it sweet next combat round with wounds to spare however. And that's without ANY psychic powers being used either, so their actual downfall would likely be swifter. The Scarabs are 250 points however, but 250 is close enough to 230 for my tastes in this instance, especially since the difference was so prounounced. For reference, I gave the DCA the charge, I had the Scarab's standing out in the open so the grenadeless DCA didn't have to go through terrain and the Scarabs didn not fire overwatch either. In a maxed war cabal you have 3 of these units while you can only have 1 instance of litanies of faith, so even if they site there and punch each other for 4 turns, I'm fine with that outcome.

So, yeah, Thousand Sons - Combat Masters! They really are the best legion (kiddingnotkidding).

I'll admit I was quite surprised that flayed ones didn't do better, same with Vectorium Nurgle bikers, but it's all about surving that charge and then letting the compound interest of differing rates of attrition do the work.

And then you run up against the dreaded... IMPERIAL GUARD INFANTRY SQUAD STANDING IN TERRAIN, and you lose 50% of your elite combat squad to overwatch and the guardsmen getting to attack first because you have no grenades.

Or heck, any unit with 2+ armor save? a monstrous creature that S3 can't hurt, or a dreadnought?

the_scotsman wrote:
And then you run up against the dreaded... IMPERIAL GUARD INFANTRY SQUAD STANDING IN TERRAIN, and you lose 50% of your elite combat squad to overwatch and the guardsmen getting to attack first because you have no grenades.

Or heck, any unit with 2+ armor save? a monstrous creature that S3 can't hurt, or a dreadnought?

the inquisitor has frag grenades

and 2+ armour isn't that big a deal as the number of wounds you can inflict means they will fail a lot.

There's now several options posted above that can beat them for the same cost.

The crusaders and arco unit is a pretty damn good one too, but only because they look amazing.
Either way, that unit beats the DCA unit every time.

pepsuber wrote:
In this situation I'd just tarpit him, 35 plague zombies come out at 150 points exactly. And if he can bring a LR, can I bring Typhus? Even if i slap the mark of nurgle on the unit, the zombies and typus would cost less than his DCA, the priest and the LR he took

Once again me bringing the LR was just to highlight how we cant say overwatch kills X amount or shooting phase kills X amount because during the game anything can happen eg troops being in a transport and if I was bringing a LR and counting it as part of this unit then the LR redeemer would kill all of your zombies before the DCA charge them so they wouldn't be tarpitted.

But if your 35 zombies were in combat with my 10 death cult assassins, 1 priest and an inquisitor with rad grenades which is what I said at the start or even just 10 dca your zombies would lose


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Even with no overwatch conscripts canbeat a DCA charge I reckon. As they're bunched up in a blob of 50 base to base (cos we're not shooting) in a rough square they should be able to get into CC at their initiative step.

DCA kill approx 29 conscripts on average on the charge (accounting for rerolls to hit and the chance of war hymns). DCA lose around 6 models to retaliation attacks (again accounting for rerolls to hit and the chance of war hymns)

Next round the 4 DCAs kill a further 7 models and the 14 remainaing conscripts kill 3 DCAs.

If they win on the charge, and at least are pretty close when they get charged, I'd argue they're better. Their shooting further improves the unit, but isn't relevant in this situation.

my unit hits on a 3 re-rollable at a higher initative and kills on a 2 due to rad grenades and I have a 5+ re-rollable invun save due to war hymms.

Hope you also always bring some libconclaves for null zone

Also assault grenades in 7th work on per-model basis, having grenades on an inquisitor isn't enough. So you charge some zombies in cover and get eaten before you get to attack.