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This game doesn't really need some kind of mass model expansions. I think there might be a place for cerastus knights, or a single porphyrion. And they could re invent 1 or 2 titan classes to bring back in. But the warlord/reaver/warhound should probably remain the staple of the game. A campaign book with more legio rules, a couple new battlefield assets would be cool.

I hope they get those transfer sheets out relatively soon though, especially for tempestus and krytos the latter of which has some really cool iconography.

 xttz wrote:

JWBS wrote:

The £50 Crusader / Errant seems like a glaringly convenient omission.

Please tell me you're not referring to Knight: Renegade. You know that's would be disingenuous, right?

No not really. I have 2 wardens and 2 crusaders, I think the wardens cost me £52.50 each and the Crusaders £42.50 each. I was being generous by bumping up a bit. I pretty sure wouldn't have bought any of them if they'd cost a total of £320 (as opposed to £190). I'm being completely genuine. The price of minis are often broken down this way. I think the Tempestus Scions are crazy priced, but I'm considering the "Start collecting Tempestus" and ebaying what I don't want. I probably won't. But I did this for the knights - bought two Crusaders (that had been split from IKR), then somehow managed to find two copies of the game, and ebayed my freshly bought Crusaders. GW said IKR was not limited and "Available forever" or some such (which was a bit disingenuous, because when I was ready to buy, 99% of 3rd party retailers were OOS and couldn't give a time for restock), so it's not unreasonable to consider these prices to be a very realistic option. I wouldn't apply the same logic to AT GME because of the overall bundle of stuff (books, scenery etc - I'm actually counting the IKR scenery as a freebie. I guess you could go further and say the Knights from the set cost £47.50 and £37.50, but I won't go that far as the scenery is insignificant to me. I might ebay it, I might paint it, I'll probably put it in a box and forget about it).

 Thargrim wrote:
This game doesn't really need some kind of mass model expansions. I think there might be a place for cerastus knights, or a single porphyrion. And they could re invent 1 or 2 titan classes to bring back in. But the warlord/reaver/warhound should probably remain the staple of the game. A campaign book with more legio rules, a couple new battlefield assets would be cool.

I hope they get those transfer sheets out relatively soon though, especially for tempestus and krytos the latter of which has some really cool iconography.

AT is definitely something with room to grow organically. There are a few approaches they can take:

Terrain & objectives (wrecked titans would be pretty cool to see)

Legion transfer sheets

Rarer weapons or units (porphyrion, psi-titans)

Late-heresy mutated chaos titans & knights

Expanding the Titan background with previously mentioned 'precursor' titans

Ork and Eldar xenos expansions

All of these can be done to add variety without messing with the core game structure. I think if sales are still strong once the range matures to a certain point, we'll see Epic but as a new rule set with less focus on titan micro-management. AT will still be it's own game.

JWBS wrote:

 xttz wrote:

JWBS wrote:

The £50 Crusader / Errant seems like a glaringly convenient omission.

Please tell me you're not referring to Knight: Renegade. You know that's would be disingenuous, right?

No not really. I have 2 wardens and 2 crusaders, I think the wardens cost me £52.50 each and the Crusaders £42.50 each. I was being generous by bumping up a bit. I pretty sure wouldn't have bought any of them if they'd cost a total of £320 (as opposed to £190). I'm being completely genuine. The price of minis are often broken down this way. I think the Tempestus Scions are crazy priced, but I'm considering the "Start collecting Tempestus" and ebaying what I don't want. I probably won't. But I did this for the knights - bought two Crusaders (that had been split from IKR), then somehow managed to find two copies of the game, and ebayed my freshly bought Crusaders. GW said IKR was not limited and "Available forever" or some such (which was a bit disingenuous, because when I was ready to buy, 99% of 3rd party retailers were OOS and couldn't give a time for restock), so it's not unreasonable to consider these prices to be a very realistic option. I wouldn't apply the same logic to AT GME because of the overall bundle of stuff (books, scenery etc - I'm actually counting the IKR scenery as a freebie. I guess you could go further and say the Knights from the set cost £47.50 and £37.50, but I won't go that far as the scenery is insignificant to me. I might ebay it, I might paint it, I'll probably put it in a box and forget about it).

In that case Warlord Titans are £25 each thanks to the GME box (£175 minus the Knights, buildings and rules leaves £50 left over). That makes them the cheapest large GW walker and therefore the best value!

(yes this is how bad your logic is)

GME is still available on the Aussie GW webstore, should anyone be desperate enough to venture there.

No surprise really, given the pricing...

By way of comparison, a single Warlord is 65 GBP on the UK webstore, which at the current exchange rate should be about $115 AUD.

Actual price of the lone Warlord on Oz GW: $180 AUD.

Tell 'em they're dreaming!

For the price of one Warlord, I could pick up the FFG boardgame Star Wars Rebellion, which is a complete game--and one of the best two-player games I've ever played.

Will be picking up the rules set for Titanicus, but it looks like we'll be playing with old Epic minis for the foreseeable future. Simply can't justify spending that much on plastic models, even at a FLGS discount, especially as we'd need two opposing forces.

Things may change when the Reaver and Warhound come out.

Still, pleased it's selling well overseas. Bodes well for the game's future.

As others have said, I reckon the Reaver would have been a better choice to sell up front--it's the equivalent of a standard cruiser in BFG, whereas the Warlord is the centrepiece battleship. But then again, the Warlord is so iconic (having featured in the first AT box) that I can see why they chose it.

I hope the Reaver's base is wide enough to allow for the classic splay-legged pose, though. Or that we can stick it on a Warlord-sized base to give it room. I don't much like the 'hello, I'll be your waiter for this evening' upright stance I've seen in the photos so far.

Anyway... if they've future-proofed the game for Epic, then that's great--because even if they never get around to adding it, the fans can do it for them.

I look forward to the day when they release a new Epic Redux range and expand the game system to accommodate tanks and infantry. Until the game becomes so complicated and crunchy that they have to get Jervis to drastically streamline it. At which point the players rebel because Epic Redux 41,000 has lost all its flavour, and the game crashes and burns. Then Jervis can eat humble pie and release Epic Redux Armageddon, but instead of re-re-releasing all the major races, it will feature Feral Tyranid Tiamat Swarms and Exodite Eldar on dinosaurs. And so the great cycle of life wheels onward.

But the big question causing me sleepless nights... the question nobody's asked yet... the Imperator in the room...

What's the proofreading like in the rulebook?

My local Store confirmed he received the Box today. I'm so exited for saturday.

Three days to decide for a Legion. I'm struggling between Legio Atarus, Tempestus and Gryphonicus. Does anyone know, if any of these Legions played a role in the Siege of Terra? I wanna play a Legion for the whole heresy. Atarus is known for Istavaan V, but i can not find any Information about further action in the War.
It seems playing Traitor Legions is a lot easier in Horus Heresy... Legio Mortis was present at any battle. Maybe it's safer, to go the traitor way... Death to the false Emperor.

 xttz wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
This game doesn't really need some kind of mass model expansions. I think there might be a place for cerastus knights, or a single porphyrion. And they could re invent 1 or 2 titan classes to bring back in. But the warlord/reaver/warhound should probably remain the staple of the game. A campaign book with more legio rules, a couple new battlefield assets would be cool.

I hope they get those transfer sheets out relatively soon though, especially for tempestus and krytos the latter of which has some really cool iconography.

AT is definitely something with room to grow organically. There are a few approaches they can take:

Terrain & objectives (wrecked titans would be pretty cool to see)

Legion transfer sheets

Rarer weapons or units (porphyrion, psi-titans)

Late-heresy mutated chaos titans & knights

Expanding the Titan background with previously mentioned 'precursor' titans

Ork and Eldar xenos expansions

All of these can be done to add variety without messing with the core game structure. I think if sales are still strong once the range matures to a certain point, we'll see Epic but as a new rule set with less focus on titan micro-management. AT will still be it's own game.

JWBS wrote:

 xttz wrote:

JWBS wrote:

The £50 Crusader / Errant seems like a glaringly convenient omission.

Please tell me you're not referring to Knight: Renegade. You know that's would be disingenuous, right?

No not really. I have 2 wardens and 2 crusaders, I think the wardens cost me £52.50 each and the Crusaders £42.50 each. I was being generous by bumping up a bit. I pretty sure wouldn't have bought any of them if they'd cost a total of £320 (as opposed to £190). I'm being completely genuine. The price of minis are often broken down this way. I think the Tempestus Scions are crazy priced, but I'm considering the "Start collecting Tempestus" and ebaying what I don't want. I probably won't. But I did this for the knights - bought two Crusaders (that had been split from IKR), then somehow managed to find two copies of the game, and ebayed my freshly bought Crusaders. GW said IKR was not limited and "Available forever" or some such (which was a bit disingenuous, because when I was ready to buy, 99% of 3rd party retailers were OOS and couldn't give a time for restock), so it's not unreasonable to consider these prices to be a very realistic option. I wouldn't apply the same logic to AT GME because of the overall bundle of stuff (books, scenery etc - I'm actually counting the IKR scenery as a freebie. I guess you could go further and say the Knights from the set cost £47.50 and £37.50, but I won't go that far as the scenery is insignificant to me. I might ebay it, I might paint it, I'll probably put it in a box and forget about it).

In that case Warlord Titans are £25 each thanks to the GME box (£175 minus the Knights, buildings and rules leaves £50 left over). That makes them the cheapest large GW walker and therefore the best value!

(yes this is how bad your logic is)

No need to be unpleasant mate. I already said I don't value the rules or scenery. I suppose you didn't read that part. This won't be the case for everyone but I'm certainly not unique. GW are even pushing this as an aspect of AT (aimed at collectors etc etc). I won't call you stupid for having a contrary opinion to mine, as you have deemed appropriate. But I disagree. And why are you valuing the box sans warlord at £175? Is this the individually rrp of each other bit, sold separately? Why not spread the AT GM "value" equally across all components, instead of leaving the Warlords out? Do that maths instead. And while you're at it, get an rrp for the IKR rules and scenery, and apply the same maths to the IKR box. Just to be completely fair. And Logical.

/Edit - quotes

BrianDavion wrote:
-snip-
depends how it's done, generally speaking I see elements of BFG in AT, the Warlord is our Battleship. Reavers are cruisers, warhounds our light cruisers, and knights are our escorts. so I suspect AT is going in part of be used as a "learning experiance" for a future BFG game

But that's exactly my point - games of AT are only rarely going to go above 10 or 12 "units" on the table in total for both sides, while in BFG one player's fleet would often be more than that. It's all very well to say as Scott does that the actual size of the model didn't matter in BFG, and from a rules perspective that's true in that the stem was what mattered, but battleships were already what, five inches long, a bit more? Cruisers 3 or 4 inches? Make the models much bigger than that and owning what would be a fleet in classic BFG would be both prohibitively expensive and would be impractical to actually play. I'm not that fussed about older models since I sold most of mine years back and frankly would be buying new fleets anyway to paint up in Legion colours, it's the impact on the actual game that concerns me.

The "experience" for AT is as the lead Princeps commanding a maniple of Titans, but the "experience" for BFG is supposed to be that of an Admiral commanding a whole fleet, and that experience is best preserved by keeping the models about the same size they were before.

 Mymearan wrote:

I'm sure it wasn't confined to Kirby, but with both him and Alan Merret gone... The wargaming market is different, the specialist games team is different, GW/FWs internal organization is different, the release schedule is different, the leadership is different. Personally I wouldn't consider their previous behaviour to be any sort of indicator of future behaviour for these reasons. Especially that last one. So I see no reason to expect the worst.

Fair enough, but there's one thing that isn't different, GW's "culture", and it's that which makes me hesitant to ever get fully on board with any hype trains - I don't immediately expect the worst any more, but I won't take anything on faith until they have a lot more years of "changed" behaviour under their belt.

Aexcaliber wrote:
My local Store confirmed he received the Box today. I'm so exited for saturday.

Three days to decide for a Legion. I'm struggling between Legio Atarus, Tempestus and Gryphonicus. Does anyone know, if any of these Legions played a role in the Siege of Terra? I wanna play a Legion for the whole heresy. Atarus is known for Istavaan V, but i can not find any Information about further action in the War.
It seems playing Traitor Legions is a lot easier in Horus Heresy... Legio Mortis was present at any battle. Maybe it's safer, to go the traitor way... Death to the false Emperor.

according to Lexnicium 3 titan legions where among the loyalists on Terra. of those only the Legio Ignatum was named. If you're willing to wait until december to paint we MIGHT have more infomation come Titanfall. It sounds like the offical history is that the titan legions just about ground themselves into dust on Beta-Garmon.

Bill King wrote:The palace was not the only bastion of resistance. There were others; each an awesome fortified city filled with dauntless soldiers. Beneath their Fortress Monastery, grim-visaged Rogal Dorn led the stern Imperial Fists in final prayers. Within the armoured factory complexes of the Adeptus Mechanicus, techpriests put aside their tools and girded on the fearsome weapons of their order. In the rubble of burned-out hab-areas Primarch Jhagatai Khan mustered the White Scars, the Chapter of Space Marines he had personally instructed in the art of lightning warfare. Three full Titan legions stood ready to defend their Emperor.

Soon the defenders of Eternity Wall Space Port had been swept aside by the merciless assault and the hordes of the Warmaster were in total possession of the spacefield. More and more intricately wrought dropships descended from orbit. They towered over the landing ground like nightmare skyscrapers. The dark runes on their sides glowed evilly in the gloom. Hundred-metre high doors opened in their kilometre long sides. From their red depths Titans, ten times the height of a man, emerged. They were warped giants; the armour of their carapace fused and moulded into new shapes by the power of Chaos. Within them were men melded to their machines. Some of the hideous Titans had strange and potent weapons, others were a bizarre hybrid of the organic and the machine. Metal tentacles lashed, spiked tails whipped back and forth. Engines roared like the voices of angry beasts. Banners fluttering, the Titans of Storm Lords and the Flaming Skulls legions marched forth. At Lions Gate Space Port the traitors welcomed the towering black war engines of the Khornate host. Minotaurs and trolls and cultists seethed like angry ants around their bases.

Day by day the siege wore on, casualties rose from the thousands to tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands. Bodies had to be bulldozed from the access ways to the Saturnine Gate by war machines. Chaos Titans blazed at the walls, specially constructed missiles ripping great chunks from the masonry. The Titans of the Fire Wasps answered their fire with volcano cannons. The smell of burning flesh filled the air as the corpses of the dead were incinerated in funeral pyres a hundred foot high. Obscene ash parched the throats of the defenders. The World Eaters built a pyramid of scorched skulls sixty foot high in Temple Square. By night the chants of degenerate cultists echoed through the streets and daemons flitted among the ruins of Earth.

Slowly, foot by torturous foot, the defenders were forced back. The great walls of the palace were riddled with hundreds of kilometres of bulkheads and corridor. Within this maze hand to hand fighting ensued till entire sections of passage were filled with bloated corpses. Feeling progress was too slow, Horus ordered Titans of the Death's Head Legion to demolish entire sections of the wall. Despite taking tremendous casualties the great Warlord Titans broke through, and the forces of the Warmaster flooded into the palace grounds.

From "The Assault on Earth" by Bill King, published in White Dwarf 161:
http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

So, on the Imperial side there's the Fire Wasps (Legio Ignatum) and two others. On the traitor side, the Death's Heads (Legio Mortis), Storm Lords (Legio Tempestus) and the Flaming Skulls.

Two Fire Wasps titans are the gate guards for the Eternity Gate of the Imperial Palace.

Until the Black Library get there, that's the definitive list, I think.

BrianDavion wrote:

Aexcaliber wrote:
My local Store confirmed he received the Box today. I'm so exited for saturday.

Three days to decide for a Legion. I'm struggling between Legio Atarus, Tempestus and Gryphonicus. Does anyone know, if any of these Legions played a role in the Siege of Terra? I wanna play a Legion for the whole heresy. Atarus is known for Istavaan V, but i can not find any Information about further action in the War.
It seems playing Traitor Legions is a lot easier in Horus Heresy... Legio Mortis was present at any battle. Maybe it's safer, to go the traitor way... Death to the false Emperor.

according to Lexnicium 3 titan legions where among the loyalists on Terra. of those only the Legio Ignatum was named. If you're willing to wait until december to paint we MIGHT have more infomation come Titanfall. It sounds like the offical history is that the titan legions just about ground themselves into dust on Beta-Garmon.

Two Ignatum Warlords guard the Eternity Gate http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Eternity_Gate_(Imperial)

Edit

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Bill King wrote:The palace was not the only bastion of resistance. There were others; each an awesome fortified city filled with dauntless soldiers. Beneath their Fortress Monastery, grim-visaged Rogal Dorn led the stern Imperial Fists in final prayers. Within the armoured factory complexes of the Adeptus Mechanicus, techpriests put aside their tools and girded on the fearsome weapons of their order. In the rubble of burned-out hab-areas Primarch Jhagatai Khan mustered the White Scars, the Chapter of Space Marines he had personally instructed in the art of lightning warfare. Three full Titan legions stood ready to defend their Emperor.

Soon the defenders of Eternity Wall Space Port had been swept aside by the merciless assault and the hordes of the Warmaster were in total possession of the spacefield. More and more intricately wrought dropships descended from orbit. They towered over the landing ground like nightmare skyscrapers. The dark runes on their sides glowed evilly in the gloom. Hundred-metre high doors opened in their kilometre long sides. From their red depths Titans, ten times the height of a man, emerged. They were warped giants; the armour of their carapace fused and moulded into new shapes by the power of Chaos. Within them were men melded to their machines. Some of the hideous Titans had strange and potent weapons, others were a bizarre hybrid of the organic and the machine. Metal tentacles lashed, spiked tails whipped back and forth. Engines roared like the voices of angry beasts. Banners fluttering, the Titans of Storm Lords and the Flaming Skulls legions marched forth. At Lions Gate Space Port the traitors welcomed the towering black war engines of the Khornate host. Minotaurs and trolls and cultists seethed like angry ants around their bases.

Day by day the siege wore on, casualties rose from the thousands to tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands. Bodies had to be bulldozed from the access ways to the Saturnine Gate by war machines. Chaos Titans blazed at the walls, specially constructed missiles ripping great chunks from the masonry. The Titans of the Fire Wasps answered their fire with volcano cannons. The smell of burning flesh filled the air as the corpses of the dead were incinerated in funeral pyres a hundred foot high. Obscene ash parched the throats of the defenders. The World Eaters built a pyramid of scorched skulls sixty foot high in Temple Square. By night the chants of degenerate cultists echoed through the streets and daemons flitted among the ruins of Earth.

Slowly, foot by torturous foot, the defenders were forced back. The great walls of the palace were riddled with hundreds of kilometres of bulkheads and corridor. Within this maze hand to hand fighting ensued till entire sections of passage were filled with bloated corpses. Feeling progress was too slow, Horus ordered Titans of the Death's Head Legion to demolish entire sections of the wall. Despite taking tremendous casualties the great Warlord Titans broke through, and the forces of the Warmaster flooded into the palace grounds.

From "The Assault on Earth" by Bill King, published in White Dwarf 161:
http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

So, on the Imperial side there's the Fire Wasps (Legio Ignatum) and two others. On the traitor side, the Death's Heads (Legio Mortis), Storm Lords (Legio Tempestus) and the Flaming Skulls.

Two Fire Wasps titans are the gate guards for the Eternity Gate of the Imperial Palace.

Until the Black Library get there, that's the definitive list, I think.

yeah, Black Library I think'll finallyl get there next year, with titanfall in december, they're in position to begin the final battle...... assuming they don't waste the next few years n the unimportant adventures of bob of the random legion, fapping about the universe.

Thank you.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

From "The Assault on Earth" by Bill King, published in White Dwarf 161:
http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

Have you ever read the other short story about the final showdown, where it describes the injuries sustained by the Emperor? His eyeball bursts etc. It's from around the same period. Not as good as the Bill King one but I'd like to read it again and I can't find it anywhere.

/Edit - lol, first google result http://dakka.chat.ru/fict_heresy.html Yeah, not as good. Written in the present tense for some reason too.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

From "The Assault on Earth" by Bill King, published in White Dwarf 161:
http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

So, on the Imperial side there's the Fire Wasps (Legio Ignatum) and two others. On the traitor side, the Death's Heads (Legio Mortis), Storm Lords (Legio Tempestus) and the Flaming Skulls.

Two Fire Wasps titans are the gate guards for the Eternity Gate of the Imperial Palace.

Until the Black Library get there, that's the definitive list, I think.

See, this is why I think they need AT to help finish off the Heresy storyline. The most apocalyptic battles in the history of the imperium need as many giant robbits as possible.

Plus would you rather buy Forgeworld fortress walls in 8mm scale or 28mm scale?

JWBS wrote:


No need to be unpleasant mate. I already said I don't value the rules or scenery. I suppose you didn't read that part. This won't be the case for everyone but I'm certainly not unique. GW are even pushing this as an aspect of AT (aimed at collectors etc etc). I won't call you stupid for having a contrary opinion to mine, as you have deemed appropriate. But I disagree. And why are you valuing the box sans warlord at £175? Is this the individually rrp of each other bit, sold separately? Why not spread the AT GM "value" equally across all components, instead of leaving the Warlords out? Do that maths instead. And while you're at it, get an rrp for the IKR rules and scenery, and apply the same maths to the IKR box. Just to be completely fair. And Logical.

/Edit - quotes

You're arguing in bad faith by equating a product not even released yet with one out long enough to get not one but two discounted bundle boxes. IKR wasn't available on release of the Knight kit, just like there are no discounted maniple boxes on day 1 of the Warlord. Why would GW heavily discount a single product on day 1 when demand is highest? That's just bad marketing. Maybe in a year or two you'll have a point, but do you honestly think we won't get AT discount boxes in time?

And if you find people disagreeing with on the Internet 'unpleasant' perhaps you shouldn't derail discussions with galaxy-brain takes like "old products get better discounts than new products!!!! bad deal!!!!"

 xttz wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

From "The Assault on Earth" by Bill King, published in White Dwarf 161:
http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

So, on the Imperial side there's the Fire Wasps (Legio Ignatum) and two others. On the traitor side, the Death's Heads (Legio Mortis), Storm Lords (Legio Tempestus) and the Flaming Skulls.

Two Fire Wasps titans are the gate guards for the Eternity Gate of the Imperial Palace.

Until the Black Library get there, that's the definitive list, I think.

See, this is why I think they need AT to help finish off the Heresy storyline. The most apocalyptic battles in the history of the imperium need as many giant robbits as possible.

Plus would you rather buy Forgeworld fortress walls in 8mm scale or 28mm scale?

JWBS wrote:


No need to be unpleasant mate. I already said I don't value the rules or scenery. I suppose you didn't read that part. This won't be the case for everyone but I'm certainly not unique. GW are even pushing this as an aspect of AT (aimed at collectors etc etc). I won't call you stupid for having a contrary opinion to mine, as you have deemed appropriate. But I disagree. And why are you valuing the box sans warlord at £175? Is this the individually rrp of each other bit, sold separately? Why not spread the AT GM "value" equally across all components, instead of leaving the Warlords out? Do that maths instead. And while you're at it, get an rrp for the IKR rules and scenery, and apply the same maths to the IKR box. Just to be completely fair. And Logical.

/Edit - quotes

You're arguing in bad faith by equating a product not even released yet with one out long enough to get not one but two discounted bundle boxes. IKR wasn't available on release of the Knight kit, just like there are no discounted maniple boxes on day 1 of the Warlord. Why would GW heavily discount a single product on day 1 when demand is highest? That's just bad marketing. Maybe in a year or two you'll have a point, but do you honestly think we won't get AT discount boxes in time?

And if you find people disagreeing with on the Internet 'unpleasant' perhaps you shouldn't derail discussions with galaxy-brain takes like "old products get better discounts than new products!!!! bad deal!!!!"

Some people can disagree with one another w/o strongly implying the other is a dumbass. Which you've just done again. Meh. That's your problem, not mine. Good luck with the attitude though (see, this is where I'm implying that you're a....choose whatever pejorative you want based on my response. Though I really shouldn't presuppose anything about you based on our extremely limited interactions. I feel compelled right now though, probably will regret it in about 10 minutes. Hopefully a mod will delete this comment). Could you do the maths for me though, as a favour? (Then maybe DIVIDE the final price of the warlords by about,,,0.75, to be generous to the Warlords, based on the volume of Warlords and the volume of the IKR Knights, in comparison to the respective bundles they're sold with - the AT box being half rules / terrain and half Miniatures, the IKR box being 75%+ Big Robots).

JWBS wrote:


Have you ever read the other short story about the final showdown, where it describes the injuries sustained by the Emperor? His eyeball bursts etc. It's from around the same period. Not as good as the Bill King one but I'd like to read it again and I can't find it anywhere.

You mean the one that's on the very same page I linked to? And is also written by Bill King? (the story of the Emperor facing Horus was written first - published in Realm of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned and also in WD 129).

That's the story that retcons out Ollanius Pius (who was never mentioned in the original story of that confrontation, in Realm of CHaos - Slaves to Darkness; only in the caption to the painting used for the box set of plastic Imperial Guard, as published in an earlier WD and in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium) in favour of an Imperial Fists terminator, and moved the action from a bunker on Earth to Horus' ship. When the story was reprinted in the Horus Heresy - Collected Visions book, the Terminator himself was replaced by a Custodes.

Are we talking about titans here or something else altogether now..?

 BrookM wrote:
Are we talking about titans here or something else altogether now..?

talking about fiction of the siege of terra. I think one of the rules of the internet is that any 40k conversation will inevitably become a discussion of how much we'd like to see BL finally writye about the god damned siege

That was a rhetorical question, but oh well..

Right, back on topic, take any other discussion elsewhere please.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

JWBS wrote:


Have you ever read the other short story about the final showdown, where it describes the injuries sustained by the Emperor? His eyeball bursts etc. It's from around the same period. Not as good as the Bill King one but I'd like to read it again and I can't find it anywhere.

You mean the one that's on the very same page I linked to? And is also written by Bill King? (the story of the Emperor facing Horus was written first - published in Realm of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned and also in WD 129).

That's the story that retcons out Ollanius Pius (who was never mentioned in the original story of that confrontation, in Realm of CHaos - Slaves to Darkness; only in the caption to the painting used for the box set of plastic Imperial Guard, as published in an earlier WD and in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium) in favour of an Imperial Fists terminator, and moved the action from a bunker on Earth to Horus' ship. When the story was reprinted in the Horus Heresy - Collected Visions book, the Terminator himself was replaced by a Custodes.

Sorry, didn't click the link! I didn't even notice it. I've read the Bill King story so many times, I slipped into some sort of nostalgic blindness Didn't realise the other one was also by King though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Are we talking about titans here or something else altogether now..?

talking about fiction of the siege of terra. I think one of the rules of the internet is that any 40k conversation will inevitably become a discussion of how much we'd like to see BL finally writye about the god damned siege

Were there any Titans present at the Siege of Terra though??? I think that could be the crucial difference between on / off topic in regards to this discussion.

Saying that (possibly OT, more baseless speculation / wishful thinking), it would be nice to see some sort of AT Emperor's Palace terrain piece eventually released. Kind of like that big 28mm display they have at WH world.

BrianDavion wrote:

Aexcaliber wrote:
My local Store confirmed he received the Box today. I'm so exited for saturday.

Three days to decide for a Legion. I'm struggling between Legio Atarus, Tempestus and Gryphonicus. Does anyone know, if any of these Legions played a role in the Siege of Terra? I wanna play a Legion for the whole heresy. Atarus is known for Istavaan V, but i can not find any Information about further action in the War.
It seems playing Traitor Legions is a lot easier in Horus Heresy... Legio Mortis was present at any battle. Maybe it's safer, to go the traitor way... Death to the false Emperor.

according to Lexnicium 3 titan legions where among the loyalists on Terra. of those only the Legio Ignatum was named. If you're willing to wait until december to paint we MIGHT have more infomation come Titanfall. It sounds like the offical history is that the titan legions just about ground themselves into dust on Beta-Garmon.

I wonder if Ordo Sinister would be considered one of the 3 loyalist Titan Legions? Given that Warp Weapons already have rules (they basically ignore Void Shields) it would be interesting to see if they do Psi Titan weaponry in the future.

You could, but that'd be a retcon, since Ordo Sinister weren't a thing in 1992.

My preferred option is to paint the titans the way I want, then say that they were present, regardless of what GW, FW or BL say.

 Imateria wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Aexcaliber wrote:
My local Store confirmed he received the Box today. I'm so exited for saturday.

Three days to decide for a Legion. I'm struggling between Legio Atarus, Tempestus and Gryphonicus. Does anyone know, if any of these Legions played a role in the Siege of Terra? I wanna play a Legion for the whole heresy. Atarus is known for Istavaan V, but i can not find any Information about further action in the War.
It seems playing Traitor Legions is a lot easier in Horus Heresy... Legio Mortis was present at any battle. Maybe it's safer, to go the traitor way... Death to the false Emperor.

according to Lexnicium 3 titan legions where among the loyalists on Terra. of those only the Legio Ignatum was named. If you're willing to wait until december to paint we MIGHT have more infomation come Titanfall. It sounds like the offical history is that the titan legions just about ground themselves into dust on Beta-Garmon.

I wonder if Ordo Sinister would be considered one of the 3 loyalist Titan Legions? Given that Warp Weapons already have rules (they basically ignore Void Shields) it would be interesting to see if they do Psi Titan weaponry in the future.

They aaaaare based on Terra but my gut tells me they're not coutned as being one of the three.

JWBS wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

From "The Assault on Earth" by Bill King, published in White Dwarf 161:
http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

So, on the Imperial side there's the Fire Wasps (Legio Ignatum) and two others. On the traitor side, the Death's Heads (Legio Mortis), Storm Lords (Legio Tempestus) and the Flaming Skulls.

Two Fire Wasps titans are the gate guards for the Eternity Gate of the Imperial Palace.

Until the Black Library get there, that's the definitive list, I think.

See, this is why I think they need AT to help finish off the Heresy storyline. The most apocalyptic battles in the history of the imperium need as many giant robbits as possible.

Plus would you rather buy Forgeworld fortress walls in 8mm scale or 28mm scale?

JWBS wrote:


No need to be unpleasant mate. I already said I don't value the rules or scenery. I suppose you didn't read that part. This won't be the case for everyone but I'm certainly not unique. GW are even pushing this as an aspect of AT (aimed at collectors etc etc). I won't call you stupid for having a contrary opinion to mine, as you have deemed appropriate. But I disagree. And why are you valuing the box sans warlord at £175? Is this the individually rrp of each other bit, sold separately? Why not spread the AT GM "value" equally across all components, instead of leaving the Warlords out? Do that maths instead. And while you're at it, get an rrp for the IKR rules and scenery, and apply the same maths to the IKR box. Just to be completely fair. And Logical.

/Edit - quotes

You're arguing in bad faith by equating a product not even released yet with one out long enough to get not one but two discounted bundle boxes. IKR wasn't available on release of the Knight kit, just like there are no discounted maniple boxes on day 1 of the Warlord. Why would GW heavily discount a single product on day 1 when demand is highest? That's just bad marketing. Maybe in a year or two you'll have a point, but do you honestly think we won't get AT discount boxes in time?

And if you find people disagreeing with on the Internet 'unpleasant' perhaps you shouldn't derail discussions with galaxy-brain takes like "old products get better discounts than new products!!!! bad deal!!!!"

Some people can disagree with one another w/o strongly implying the other is a dumbass. Which you've just done again. Meh. That's your problem, not mine. Good luck with the attitude though (see, this is where I'm implying that you're a....choose whatever pejorative you want based on my response. Though I really shouldn't presuppose anything about you based on our extremely limited interactions. I feel compelled right now though, probably will regret it in about 10 minutes. Hopefully a mod will delete this comment). Could you do the maths for me though, as a favour? (Then maybe multiply the final price of the warlords by about,,,0.75, to be generous to the Warlords, based on the volume of Warlords and the volume of the IKR Knights, in comparison to the respective bundles they're sold with - the AT box being half rules / terrain and half Miniatures, the IKR box being 75%+ Big Robots).

The problem is that your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. That image was directly comparing the price of models sold separately against each other and you asked where the £50 Crusader/Errant was. However, the Crusader/Errant box catagorically does not cost £50 but £85, only 10 less than the Warden/Galant box, and is direct only from GW anyway. That you got yours for £50 by braking down the discount Knight Renegade box is extremely disingenuous and doesn't remotely reflect the actual cost of buying he model singularly, I mean I could claim I got mine for the cost of 5 Blood Angel Terminators and a Deathg Company Dreadnaut becaus thats what I swapped for it, but thats not what it actually costs to buy.

 Thargrim wrote:
But the warlord/reaver/warhound should probably remain the staple of the game.

Why? The whole point of AT is to not be limited by zillion dolar resin junk, but to make large scale Titan battles viable. And these most definitely weren't fought by just three classes - look at the FW Horus Heresy books, the Nemesis Class Titan is mentioned nearly as often as Warlord Battle Titan, and I'd really like to see it in plastic...

 Imateria wrote:

JWBS wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

From "The Assault on Earth" by Bill King, published in White Dwarf 161:
http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

So, on the Imperial side there's the Fire Wasps (Legio Ignatum) and two others. On the traitor side, the Death's Heads (Legio Mortis), Storm Lords (Legio Tempestus) and the Flaming Skulls.

Two Fire Wasps titans are the gate guards for the Eternity Gate of the Imperial Palace.

Until the Black Library get there, that's the definitive list, I think.

See, this is why I think they need AT to help finish off the Heresy storyline. The most apocalyptic battles in the history of the imperium need as many giant robbits as possible.

Plus would you rather buy Forgeworld fortress walls in 8mm scale or 28mm scale?

JWBS wrote:


No need to be unpleasant mate. I already said I don't value the rules or scenery. I suppose you didn't read that part. This won't be the case for everyone but I'm certainly not unique. GW are even pushing this as an aspect of AT (aimed at collectors etc etc). I won't call you stupid for having a contrary opinion to mine, as you have deemed appropriate. But I disagree. And why are you valuing the box sans warlord at £175? Is this the individually rrp of each other bit, sold separately? Why not spread the AT GM "value" equally across all components, instead of leaving the Warlords out? Do that maths instead. And while you're at it, get an rrp for the IKR rules and scenery, and apply the same maths to the IKR box. Just to be completely fair. And Logical.

/Edit - quotes

You're arguing in bad faith by equating a product not even released yet with one out long enough to get not one but two discounted bundle boxes. IKR wasn't available on release of the Knight kit, just like there are no discounted maniple boxes on day 1 of the Warlord. Why would GW heavily discount a single product on day 1 when demand is highest? That's just bad marketing. Maybe in a year or two you'll have a point, but do you honestly think we won't get AT discount boxes in time?

And if you find people disagreeing with on the Internet 'unpleasant' perhaps you shouldn't derail discussions with galaxy-brain takes like "old products get better discounts than new products!!!! bad deal!!!!"

Some people can disagree with one another w/o strongly implying the other is a dumbass. Which you've just done again. Meh. That's your problem, not mine. Good luck with the attitude though (see, this is where I'm implying that you're a....choose whatever pejorative you want based on my response. Though I really shouldn't presuppose anything about you based on our extremely limited interactions. I feel compelled right now though, probably will regret it in about 10 minutes. Hopefully a mod will delete this comment). Could you do the maths for me though, as a favour? (Then maybe multiply the final price of the warlords by about,,,0.75, to be generous to the Warlords, based on the volume of Warlords and the volume of the IKR Knights, in comparison to the respective bundles they're sold with - the AT box being half rules / terrain and half Miniatures, the IKR box being 75%+ Big Robots).

The problem is that your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. That image was directly comparing the price of models sold separately against each other and you asked where the £50 Crusader/Errant was. However, the Crusader/Errant box catagorically does not cost £50 but £85, only 10 less than the Warden/Galant box, and is direct only from GW anyway. That you got yours for £50 by braking down the discount Knight Renegade box is extremely disingenuous and doesn't remotely reflect the actual cost of buying he model singularly, I mean I could claim I got mine for the cost of 5 Blood Angel Terminators and a Deathg Company Dreadnaut becaus thats what I swapped for it, but thats not what it actually costs to buy.

OK, you are technically correct that the photo illustrates prices of singular minis (apart from the Armiger, but that's no big deal). Do we have a definite price on a singular Warlord yet? I think I missed it. But anyway, technically correct is the worst kind of correct IMO. I could make the same photo, but do it from a "Best value" perspective, and it would look a lot different. Regardless, I take your point whilst maintaining my own and I withdraw from this particular discussion, it's gotten a bit sour for me, not really what I want to waste my time on. Plus I think the OT warnings apply here. I'll agree to disagree if you want, if not, well IDK, I don't suppose it matters either way really. And again, I'm not being disingenuous. You are putting that motive on me w/o knowing it to be true. I consider my argument to be valid, but even if it's not, my intent is genuine.

 Irbis wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
But the warlord/reaver/warhound should probably remain the staple of the game.

Why? The whole point of AT is to not be limited by zillion dolar resin junk, but to make large scale Titan battles viable. And these most definitely weren't fought by just three classes - look at the FW Horus Heresy books, the Nemesis Class Titan is mentioned nearly as often as Warlord Battle Titan, and I'd really like to see it in plastic...

Isn't the Nemesis Class a sub-class of Warlords with a specific weapons load like the Eclipse, Night Gaunt, Death Bringer, …

If I'm sure we'll see more (well, at least I hope so) imho the 3 classes mentioned will be the most commonly encountered on tabletops

Mendi Warrior wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
But the warlord/reaver/warhound should probably remain the staple of the game.

Why? The whole point of AT is to not be limited by zillion dolar resin junk, but to make large scale Titan battles viable. And these most definitely weren't fought by just three classes - look at the FW Horus Heresy books, the Nemesis Class Titan is mentioned nearly as often as Warlord Battle Titan, and I'd really like to see it in plastic...

Isn't the Nemesis Class a sub-class of Warlords with a specific weapons load like the Eclipse, Night Gaunt, Death Bringer, …

If I'm sure we'll see more (weel, at least I hope so) imho the 3 classes mentioned will be the most commonly encountered on tabletops

Yes though I think there's been talk of expanding those into own classes of their own.

It was originally, but it's been retconned to being a distinct other class of battle titan. There's a few sneaky mentions of additional classes of battle titan in the Horus Heresy books from Forge World. I really should look them up and list them all. Lexicanum is sadly outdated in this regard.

You would imagine these three will form the basis of any other class. Weapons, armour panels, heads swap in and out but a plastic kit seems unlikely.