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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Going from 6mm -> 8mm was only really appealing from the perspective of infantry and tanks being better scaled. If the game focus ONLY on big walkers I'm happier for them to go down to 6mm or even 4mm.

Some of the statements made by the creators make it clear that while infantry and vehicles won't be in the initial release, they are an option in the future.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Going from 6mm -> 8mm was only really appealing from the perspective of infantry and tanks being better scaled. If the game focus ONLY on big walkers I'm happier for them to go down to 6mm or even 4mm.

This is where it's important to consider that while the original Epic game was scaled "6mm," in reality GW didn't adhere to that, where infantry were 6mm, but vehicles were one scale, flyers another scale, and Titans yet another... Had the original Titan miniatures been properly scaled to the infantry they'd have almost been double the size.

Unit------- True 6mm scale height------ Comparable 40k model
Paladin --------- 32mm (~1.3) ------------Space Marine
Warhound ------57mm (~2.3) ------------Dreadnought
Reaver ----------95mm (~3.8) ------------Leviathan Dreadnought
Warlord --------114mm (~4.5) -------------Dreadknight
Imperator ------190mm (~7.7) ------------Cerastus Knight

 aka_mythos wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Going from 6mm -> 8mm was only really appealing from the perspective of infantry and tanks being better scaled. If the game focus ONLY on big walkers I'm happier for them to go down to 6mm or even 4mm.

This is where it's important to consider that while the original Epic game was scaled "6mm," in reality GW didn't adhere to that, where infantry were 6mm, but vehicles were one scale, flyers another scale, and Titans yet another... Had the original Titan miniatures been properly scaled to the infantry they'd have almost been double the size.

Yeah I'm aware GW's old 6mm scale was whacky (FW's Epic stuff was better scaled), my point was going to 8mm mainly seemed and advantage from the infantry perspective, not the "giant walker" perspective. While I'd like an Imperator Titan, I don't particularly want it to be the size of a 40k Warhound and cost £350. If it's focusing on the big stuff I'd rather it go down to 6mm or 4mm.

Also what sizes are you using as the basis for your estimations? Your calcs seem to be a bit larger than mine (assuming 6mm and 8mm means that 6mm = 6ft and 8mm = 6ft respectively).

 aka_mythos wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Going from 6mm -> 8mm was only really appealing from the perspective of infantry and tanks being better scaled. If the game focus ONLY on big walkers I'm happier for them to go down to 6mm or even 4mm.

This is where it's important to consider that while the original Epic game was scaled "6mm," in reality GW didn't adhere to that, where infantry were 6mm, but vehicles were one scale, flyers another scale, and Titans yet another... Had the original Titan miniatures been properly scaled to the infantry they'd have almost been double the size.

Unit------- True 6mm scale height------ Comparable 40k model
Paladin --------- 32mm (~1.3) ------------Space Marine
Warhound ------57mm (~2.3) ------------Dreadnought
Reaver ----------95mm (~3.8) ------------Leviathan Dreadnought
Warlord --------114mm (~4.5) -------------Dreadknight
Imperator ------190mm (~7.7) ------------Cerastus Knight

This sounds much nicer, and much more economically viable.

We've already heard from Andy (via Atia) that a Warlord is around Thanatar height

While that is true it is on its face contradictory to the rumors that FW was making the game in the "8mm scale"...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Also what sizes are you using as the basis for your estimations? Your calcs seem to be a bit larger than mine (assuming 6mm and 8mm means that 6mm = 6ft and 8mm = 6ft respectively).

In fairness the 6mm scale heights are more just estimates... The 8mm was based on the measured 40k model heights in some instances and the canonical heights in others, tending towards the lesser of the two when both were available.

It's important to note that the "8mm scale" is a height to eye scale and not a height to head scale, that 6ft = 9.14mm in the 8mm scale.

For example, Warlord Titans are stated to be 100ft tall and the model is 22.5 inches tall.
100 ft = 1200 inches
1828.8mm ~ 9.14mm => .004997 => 5.997 inches
Or using standard practices, 8mm has a 1/200 scale factor
1200/200 = 6 inches
Giving us 6 inches in the 8mm scale

22.5 inches in the 28mm scale
Factor: 28mm / 8mm = 3.5
3.5 = 22.5 / X
X =22.5 inches / 3.5 = 6.4 inches in the 8mm scale

IF FW misapplied the 8mm scale... as 8mm = 6ft...
1828.8mm ~ 8mm => .004374 => 5.24 inches.
...and that would explain the scale discrepancies. It also makes apparent that FW's "8mm scale" is as close to the 6mm scale as it to the 8mm scale and is actually closer to some hypothetical 7mm scale. I guess this Epic - 8mm is the equivalent to GW's Heroic 28mm.

 aka_mythos wrote:

It's important to note that the "8mm scale" is a height to eye scale and not a height to head scale, that 6ft = 9.14mm in the 8mm scale.

Old Epic 40k models are 6mm to the top of the head rather than the eye (there's some oddball models like the Chaplain that are about 7mm tall, but most are 5.5-6mm tall).

My understanding is that "mm" scales can mean either to the top of the head or to the eyes. I've heard people say the "to the eyes" thing came because military models often wear helmets, but I've also heard the "to the eyes" thing just came because of scale creep.

Anywho, if your reference is to the eye, old Epic was closer to 5mm scale than 6mm scale.

 aka_mythos wrote:
While that is true it is on its face contradictory to the rumors that FW was making the game in the "8mm scale"...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Also what sizes are you using as the basis for your estimations? Your calcs seem to be a bit larger than mine (assuming 6mm and 8mm means that 6mm = 6ft and 8mm = 6ft respectively).

In fairness the 6mm scale heights are more just estimates... The 8mm was based on the measured 40k model heights in some instances and the canonical heights in others, tending towards the lesser of the two when both were available.

It's important to note that the "8mm scale" is a height to eye scale and not a height to head scale, that 6ft = 9.14mm in the 8mm scale.

IF FW misapplied the 8mm scale... as 8mm = 6ft....

I know a number of older grognards who would scoff at that. Foot to top of head was old school 6mm. Part of the reason many 6mm minis don't look right next to each other is down to some makers doing to top of head and other to eye which leads to scale difference. As the above poster quoted the big hats many soldiers had (18 century onwards in particular) has been used to explain that. A friend would often point out that is bollocks, any sculptor knows head proportions and can still do 'proper' 6mm to top of head even if it has a big hat on.

Carnikang wrote:Hives are usually what we think when we think 40K buildings

This is what I think of in terms of a hive city. Compared to that, regular 40K terrain is a slightly gothic New York.

puree wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
While that is true it is on its face contradictory to the rumors that FW was making the game in the "8mm scale"...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Also what sizes are you using as the basis for your estimations? Your calcs seem to be a bit larger than mine (assuming 6mm and 8mm means that 6mm = 6ft and 8mm = 6ft respectively).

In fairness the 6mm scale heights are more just estimates... The 8mm was based on the measured 40k model heights in some instances and the canonical heights in others, tending towards the lesser of the two when both were available.

It's important to note that the "8mm scale" is a height to eye scale and not a height to head scale, that 6ft = 9.14mm in the 8mm scale.

IF FW misapplied the 8mm scale... as 8mm = 6ft....

I know a number of older grognards who would scoff at that. Foot to top of head was old school 6mm. Part of the reason many 6mm minis don't look right next to each other is down to some makers doing to top of head and other to eye which leads to scale difference. As the above poster quoted the big hats many soldiers had (18 century onwards in particular) has been used to explain that. A friend would often point out that is bollocks, any sculptor knows head proportions and can still do 'proper' 6mm to top of head even if it has a big hat on.

The 6mm scale is a top of the head scale, where 5.7mm is the to the eye height... however the 8mm scale, as I said, is a to the eye scale and 9.14mm is the top of head height. So no grognards should have been hurt.

 aka_mythos wrote:
The 6mm scale is a top of the head scale, where 5.7mm is the to the eye height... however the 8mm scale, as I said, is a to the eye scale and 9.14mm is the top of head height. So no grognards should have been hurt.

I don't think it's etched in stone anywhere that 8mm is measured to the eye and 6mm is measured to the top of the head.

6mm can be either 1/300 or 1/285, 1/285 is closer to the eye, 1/300 is closer to the top of the head.

I found this page...

http://theminiaturespage.com/ref/scales.html

...that lists 8mm being as equivalent to 1/200, but you'll note the "8mm" is written in the right column while "1/200" is in the left column, meaning that 1/200 is the ACTUAL scale and 8mm is just what they estimate as the equivalent. I'm not actually aware of any actual 8mm ranges, they probably exist in some obscure corner of wargaming though

That website also lists 6mm as being the equivalent of 1/268, which, err, would mean a 6ft tall person would be *whips out abacus* 6.82mm tall, that's waaaay bigger than GW's old Epic scale which we call "6mm".

1/200 is a bit big for 8mm I think. If you look at the proportions of an adult male the height to the top of the head should be roughly 6-7% larger than the height to the eye, so a person who is 8mm to the eye should be ~8.5mm to the top of their head, where as a 6ft tall person in 1/200 scale would be 6*12*25.4/200 = 9.144mm tall.


EDIT: I think at the end of the day wargaming companies suck at scaling miniatures and are a long way from being consistent across ranges, we're lucky if they're consistent within their own range Maybe that's why we have "mm" scales in the first place, they didn't want to commit to an actual ratio

So long as it's consistent throughout the range... who cares? :p

Vorian wrote:
So long as it's consistent throughout the range... who cares? :p

Well the topic just came up because we were guessing at the heights of different models and aka's heights seemed to be a decent chunk larger than what I was guessing.

Based on people saying a Warlord Titan is going to be roughly the height of a Thanatar it'd make me think they're in the 1/220 to 1/240ish range?

Also we know GW is rarely self consistent through their ranges, FW is usually slightly better.

Well, to repeat myself from earlier - the 40k scale version was just x4 for all measurements so perhaps the AT stuff is just quarter sized and they call it 8mm as a shorthand

Vorian wrote:
Well, to repeat myself from earlier - the 40k scale version was just x4 for all measurements so perhaps the AT stuff is just quarter sized and they call it 8mm as a shorthand

Well, 1/4 size 40k or 1/3 larger than Epic 40k is basically the same thing. 1/4 of 40k's 28mm is 7mm to the eyes, or 1/3 larger than Epic's 6mm would be 8mm to the top of the head, which is reasonably close to each other.

 Vermis wrote:

Carnikang wrote:Hives are usually what we think when we think 40K buildings

This is what I think of in terms of a hive city. Compared to that, regular 40K terrain is a slightly gothic New York.

That's awesome . This whole thing has gotten me interested in the 40k background again, will be cool to have a game that captures a little of that "epic" scale (and maybe even more down the line if this release goes well).

This thread reminds me that I saw quite a few "fan Marines" sculpts and "fan Renegades (including psyker)" on Dakka a while ago. If those models can still be had and someone knows how and where well, send me a raven, will ya.

Turning Nurglings into mini-me knights (or chubby unicorn beastmen) or the ST Moonface into a Ratling astropath is still not fiddly enough! I need to go smaller!

I think I'll wait and see if infantry and vehicles are on the horizon. Then I'm all-in.

There's just something about the nostalgia of seeing Epic infantry and tanks, where I can fondly remember the 90's when I first got hooked by 40k.

But then again I can still hum the main tune for the PC game Final Liberation.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Vorian wrote:
So long as it's consistent throughout the range... who cares? :p

Well the topic just came up because we were guessing at the heights of different models and aka's heights seemed to be a decent chunk larger than what I was guessing.

Based on people saying a Warlord Titan is going to be roughly the height of a Thanatar it'd make me think they're in the 1/220 to 1/240ish range?

Also we know GW is rarely self consistent through their ranges, FW is usually slightly better.

Why is anyone guessing at the height of a Warlord.. there are pictures of it on page 1.. It looks about the size of a Contemptor Dreadnought from the picture..

EDIT: Just looked again.. maybe somewhere between Contemptor and Knight (in 28mm). At most it would be the size of the 15mm Dreamforge Leviathan.

That's just a test sculpt. We have heard the actual warlord ous thanatar sized

 Vermis wrote:

Carnikang wrote:Hives are usually what we think when we think 40K buildings

This is what I think of in terms of a hive city. Compared to that, regular 40K terrain is a slightly gothic New York.

TO be fair, that's just a chart. The inside has level upon level of stacked buildings of varyign size and height. Not to mention there are spaces where you have nothing but New York-esque buildings. Usuaully these are just Hab-Blocks.

This is a peice of art I usually think of when someone says Hive. The outside is cool and all, but inside is what I visualize. The dark, stacked Gotham-like buildings and industrial feel.

 Vermis wrote:

Carnikang wrote:Hives are usually what we think when we think 40K buildings

This is what I think of in terms of a hive city. Compared to that, regular 40K terrain is a slightly gothic New York.

To be fair, Hive Primaris is one of the biggest and most ancient hives in the whole Imperium and would require something like a 5m x 5m table and be almost 8m tall in 8mm scale. In 40K scale even representing a small section of a small hive is a mental undertaking only GW have yet been crazed enough to attempt(and no wonder, since if you didn't have the ability to run off a few thousand terrain sprues for virtually nothing it would cost most normal people a lifetime's wages to build that HUEG display at Warhammer World), so we get the "vanilla" Civilised World gothic apartment blocks - in 8mm/"heroic 6mm" though? You could fit a modest mile-or-so tall hive spire into a 4'x4' table, or better yet 6x4 with some of the "urban sprawl" around the base, then a second 6x4 table split between sprawl and ash-waste with a huge curtain wall across it.

Or you could go earlier and have a proto-hive where sections of what will become the Spire are still large but semi-distinct buildings.

Like I say though, I mainly want the 8mm gothic terrain to greeble larger structures, as that's one thing that's always been missing for me in the 40K terrain - the sense of cyclopean scale that's always described in the novels and codices. I actually think a lot of the 40K terrain will repurpose for HUEG 8mm buildings pretty easily with some extra small-scale detailing.

 Carnikang wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

Carnikang wrote:Hives are usually what we think when we think 40K buildings

This is what I think of in terms of a hive city. Compared to that, regular 40K terrain is a slightly gothic New York.

TO be fair, that's just a chart. The inside has level upon level of stacked buildings of varyign size and height. Not to mention there are spaces where you have nothing but New York-esque buildings. Usuaully these are just Hab-Blocks.

This is a peice of art I usually think of when someone says Hive. The outside is cool and all, but inside is what I visualize. The dark, stacked Gotham-like buildings and industrial feel.

Hmm, I disagree. The thing you have to remember about Hive Primaris(ie Necromunda) is that it's all spire, both because it's so monstrously large and ancient and because the surface of Necromunda is so hostile any urban sprawl that wasn't absorbed into the spire proper was wrecked and buried aeons ago. A "normal" hive on a less inhospitable world would look more like Vervunhive from the Ghosts novels:



The main spire is there still, but it's smaller and surrounded by large buildings & urban districts that are open to the sky, and those are what images like your one there depict IMO. Spires themselves aren't hollow cones, they're near-solid warrens of hab-tunnels and manufactories, and where cavities exist they would fall into three main groups: isolated freakish pockets of ruin in the Sump/Underhive that hadn't been crushed or collapsed; large functional spaces for air circulation, old light shafts, heat vents and so forth; and the spiretop estates of the fabulously wealthy nobility(and even then, most of those would also be near-solid warrens of servant quarters and storage warehouses etc, with only a few large "open" areas where the nobles themselves reside). Living in an all-spire hive like Hive Primaris would be much like living within one of the Imperium's starships - a life lived mostly in enclosed spaces with no conception of what a normal city would be like, even one enclosed within a metal shell rather than open to the sky.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Like I say though, I mainly want the 8mm gothic terrain to greeble larger structures, as that's one thing that's always been missing for me in the 40K terrain - the sense of cyclopean scale that's always described in the novels and codices. I actually think a lot of the 40K terrain will repurpose for HUEG 8mm buildings pretty easily with some extra small-scale detailing.

Oh yeah, with a bit of knife work the Imperial bastion and Fortress of redemption kits would make a great base for that kind of terrain.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

Carnikang wrote:Hives are usually what we think when we think 40K buildings

This is what I think of in terms of a hive city. Compared to that, regular 40K terrain is a slightly gothic New York.

To be fair, Hive Primaris is one of the biggest and most ancient hives in the whole Imperium and would require something like a 5m x 5m table and be almost 8m tall in 8mm scale. In 40K scale even representing a small section of a small hive is a mental undertaking only GW have yet been crazed enough to attempt(and no wonder, since if you didn't have the ability to run off a few thousand terrain sprues for virtually nothing it would cost most normal people a lifetime's wages to build that HUEG display at Warhammer World), so we get the "vanilla" Civilised World gothic apartment blocks - in 8mm/"heroic 6mm" though? You could fit a modest mile-or-so tall hive spire into a 4'x4' table, or better yet 6x4 with some of the "urban sprawl" around the base, then a second 6x4 table split between sprawl and ash-waste with a huge curtain wall across it.

Or you could go earlier and have a proto-hive where sections of what will become the Spire are still large but semi-distinct buildings.

Like I say though, I mainly want the 8mm gothic terrain to greeble larger structures, as that's one thing that's always been missing for me in the 40K terrain - the sense of cyclopean scale that's always described in the novels and codices. I actually think a lot of the 40K terrain will repurpose for HUEG 8mm buildings pretty easily with some extra small-scale detailing.

 Carnikang wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

Carnikang wrote:Hives are usually what we think when we think 40K buildings

This is what I think of in terms of a hive city. Compared to that, regular 40K terrain is a slightly gothic New York.

TO be fair, that's just a chart. The inside has level upon level of stacked buildings of varyign size and height. Not to mention there are spaces where you have nothing but New York-esque buildings. Usuaully these are just Hab-Blocks.

This is a peice of art I usually think of when someone says Hive. The outside is cool and all, but inside is what I visualize. The dark, stacked Gotham-like buildings and industrial feel.

Hmm, I disagree. The thing you have to remember about Hive Primaris(ie Necromunda) is that it's all spire, both because it's so monstrously large and ancient and because the surface of Necromunda is so hostile any urban sprawl that wasn't absorbed into the spire proper was wrecked and buried aeons ago. A "normal" hive on a less inhospitable world would look more like Vervunhive from the Ghosts novels:



The main spire is there still, but it's smaller and surrounded by large buildings & urban districts that are open to the sky, and those are what images like your one there depict IMO. Spires themselves aren't hollow cones, they're near-solid warrens of hab-tunnels and manufactories, and where cavities exist they would fall into three main groups: isolated freakish pockets of ruin in the Sump/Underhive that hadn't been crushed or collapsed; large functional spaces for air circulation, old light shafts, heat vents and so forth; and the spiretop estates of the fabulously wealthy nobility(and even then, most of those would also be near-solid warrens of servant quarters and storage warehouses etc, with only a few large "open" areas where the nobles themselves reside). Living in an all-spire hive like Hive Primaris would be much like living within one of the Imperium's starships - a life lived mostly in enclosed spaces with no conception of what a normal city would be like, even one enclosed within a metal shell rather than open to the sky.

I get where you're going but gaming with the type of terrain you mention would be like playing on a steeple or the foot of a cliff.. The hive cities are so dense that it's all basically a superstructure. As has been made clear through many sources of fluff, the Imperium of Man is constructed of far more than just overpopulated hive cities. Though they are a defining feature of the absurdity of the setting and just the general tone of how cheap life is in the 41st millennium, they tend to almost never be the focal point of stories, video games, comics, etc set in the universe.

If your going to depict part of a hive city in a Titan combat game your fairly limited due to there size. The outskirts of the hive with a combo of wasteland and urban/industrial sprawl would work best IMO. For anything closer to the core of the hive, Titans would be fighting in a really restricted environment. Major roadways and wide avenues between buildings would be the only places they could fit. With most of these buildings being many times the size of the Titans themselves it would be more like a 40k zone mortalis board.

No to distract from the topic at hand... but if one even wanted to play Epic right now during the wait for whatever form AT ends up taking, what would they play? There seems to be like three variations of NetEpic, from "Tournament Pack" to Gold, etc...

What does Force-Org even look like for those games, when Titans can be fielded alongside stands of Ork Boyz???

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
No to distract from the topic at hand... but if one even wanted to play Epic right now during the wait for whatever form AT ends up taking, what would they play? There seems to be like three variations of NetEpic, from "Tournament Pack" to Gold, etc...

What does Force-Org even look like for those games, when Titans can be fielded alongside stands of Ork Boyz???

NetEpic is the most common, its a slightly cleaned up version of Epic:Armageddon
http://www.net-armageddon.org/

The tournament pack is an expanded selection of army lists as GW only made a handful before abandoning E:A. There are couple of minor rules tweaks as well.

Generally speaking you will pick formations (Armour, infantry etc) which can then have certain upgrades like AA vehicles. My Marine army for instance has 4 Tactical detachments (6 infantry, 3 Rhinos), 1 Assault (4 infantry), 2 Devastator (4 infantry, 2 rhinos), 1 Armour (4 Predators), 2 Bikes (5 bike stands) etc as well as some upgrades like Razorbacks and Hunters.

Gargants are pretty poor in E:A, although you can have an entire army of them...http://taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=29084

 MLaw wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Vorian wrote:
So long as it's consistent throughout the range... who cares? :p

Well the topic just came up because we were guessing at the heights of different models and aka's heights seemed to be a decent chunk larger than what I was guessing.

Based on people saying a Warlord Titan is going to be roughly the height of a Thanatar it'd make me think they're in the 1/220 to 1/240ish range?

Also we know GW is rarely self consistent through their ranges, FW is usually slightly better.

Why is anyone guessing at the height of a Warlord.. there are pictures of it on page 1.. It looks about the size of a Contemptor Dreadnought from the picture..

EDIT: Just looked again.. maybe somewhere between Contemptor and Knight (in 28mm). At most it would be the size of the 15mm Dreamforge Leviathan.

My understanding was that wasn't actually an AT model but rather a "for funsies" sculpt they did back in 2015 when the Warlord first came out. One advantage of designing models in CAD is that you can just scale the model down or up and 3D print a scaled version (though actually making the moulds to mass produce may still be a lot of work, but producing a 1 off downscaled 3D print is often not all that difficult).

So AT may or may not be the same scale as that model.

Yes, I believe that's been verified by now.

So, we still haven't seen just exactly what the AT Warlord will look like - or measure!

Here's a great image I found as food for thought- though it's obviously not an official miniature. Not a fan of bootleg minis, but I'm sure this is the same one-off as the Reavers I have seen, as not only are the marines non-official, there's an Angron at the bottom of the pic, too.

GW definitely has the ability to do this well: