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The "Knight" is an original metal Reaver.

Its weapons have been swapped out with the old plastic weapons from the original plastic beetleback Warlords (heavy plasma gun, multimelta and autocannon in original terminology).

Which means that the stand of marines and land raider are the ones from whatever version of Epic replaced 2nd edition (it was after my time!).

Depends on what you mean by "legit."

Are those models someone's labor of love, and are they cool? Yes.

Are those models from the new Adeptus Titanicus? No.

By legit people normally mean stuff like official or legal. Whilst these models are awesome they are neither (it's not legal to produce or sell these copies of GW's designs).

 alanmckenzie wrote:
There's no knight.

I was suggesting the infantry, land raider and small reaver on the left could be old Epic models, and the three models on the right could be the new models.

Again, I'm far from convinced myself.

Remove the "could be" and replace with "are".

If that's legit it's just scale comparison shot. More likely forumware though.

 Malika2 wrote:
By legit people normally mean stuff like official or legal. Whilst these models are awesome they are neither (it's not legal to produce or sell these copies of GW's designs).

That is questionable and was one of the big questions in the Chapter House lawsuit. It is illegal to recast GW models, but to study their style and make things in that vein is fine. Individual works can be copyrighted but not a style.

Now how close can you come before you're copying/infringing well that's a bit question but the answer (in the US at least) seems to be pretty damn close.

It's the difference between photocopying Lord of the Rings and selling it, and writing a story about a midget trying to get rid of cursed jewelry.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
By legit people normally mean stuff like official or legal. Whilst these models are awesome they are neither (it's not legal to produce or sell these copies of GW's designs).

That is questionable and was one of the big questions in the Chapter House lawsuit. It is illegal to recast GW models, but to study their style and make things in that vein is fine. Individual works can be copyrighted but not a style.

Now how close can you come before you're copying/infringing well that's a bit question but the answer (in the US at least) seems to be pretty damn close.

It's the difference between photocopying Lord of the Rings and selling it, and writing a story about a midget trying to get rid of cursed jewelry.

Fair enough, but these models arent "damn close", they are exact (resized) copies.

LOL! it seems these discussions about the forumware copies of GW designs pop up in this thread every couple of pages.

This is from a FB group. It is 100% forumware

Those look like the Epic models some guy made for 30k. In fact, I almost swear they are.

Yep, illegal resized copies of FW models, a pretty deplorable practice IMO.

 Mymearan wrote:
Yep, illegal resized copies of FW models, a pretty deplorable practice IMO.

A deplorable practice? Why exactly? Because someone did a rescale of a model for a system that was discontinued 10 years ago and where these models never existed and that is only played by some enthusiasts? Or did you mean it's deplorable because GW never did these?

Btw: The shown picture from last page are forumware (I know for sure) and are properly scaled titan models for Epic Armageddon (a thing that never existed because scales where all over the place back then) .

Grimzim wrote:
A deplorable practice? Why exactly? Because someone did a rescale of a model for a system that was discontinued 10 years ago and where these models never existed and that is only played by some enthusiasts? Or did you mean it's deplorable because GW never did these?

Btw: The shown picture from last page are forumware (I know for sure) and are properly scaled titan models for Epic Armageddon (a thing that never existed because scales where all over the place back then) .

Because they are taking designs from GW (who invested time, effort and money in producing them) and copying them exactly, albeit smaller. Pure copyright infringement and, yes, a deplorable practice. Especially now that they [GW] are considering a relaunch of Adeptus Titanicus.

 zedmeister wrote:

Grimzim wrote:
A deplorable practice? Why exactly? Because someone did a rescale of a model for a system that was discontinued 10 years ago and where these models never existed and that is only played by some enthusiasts? Or did you mean it's deplorable because GW never did these?

Btw: The shown picture from last page are forumware (I know for sure) and are properly scaled titan models for Epic Armageddon (a thing that never existed because scales where all over the place back then) .

Because they are taking designs from GW (who invested time, effort and money in producing them) and copying them exactly, albeit smaller. Pure copyright infringement and, yes, a deplorable practice. Especially now that they [GW] are considering a relaunch of Adeptus Titanicus.

Well, they (the casters) are also investing time, effort, and money into making living models for the game that as mentioned GW stopped supporting 10 years ago. Its simple supply and demand.

GW stopped supplying a game that was one of their most balanced games, that was affordable and is the actual way 40k should be played scale wise. People demanded more, so those who are good with modeling and/or CAD designing took it apon themselves to keep it going. Wouldn't have the issue if they kept it going

str00dles1 wrote:
Well, they (the casters) are also investing time, effort, and money into making living models for the game that as mentioned GW stopped supporting 10 years ago. Its simple supply and demand.

GW stopped supplying a game that was one of their most balanced games, that was affordable and is the actual way 40k should be played scale wise. People demanded more, so those who are good with modeling and/or CAD designing took it apon themselves to keep it going. Wouldn't have the issue if they kept it going

won't someone think of the counterfeiters! They have to live as well you know. Of course, it never crossed the mind of these counterfeiters to actually, you know, create their own IP. GW's IP is their own and what they choose to do with it is their own business. It's a pain, I know, as I love Epic but counterfeits and infringement are not a good thing for anybody except, maybe, the counterfeiters.

 zedmeister wrote:

Grimzim wrote:
A deplorable practice? Why exactly? Because someone did a rescale of a model for a system that was discontinued 10 years ago and where these models never existed and that is only played by some enthusiasts? Or did you mean it's deplorable because GW never did these?

Btw: The shown picture from last page are forumware (I know for sure) and are properly scaled titan models for Epic Armageddon (a thing that never existed because scales where all over the place back then) .

Because they are taking designs from GW (who invested time, effort and money in producing them) and copying them exactly, albeit smaller. Pure copyright infringement and, yes, a deplorable practice. Especially now that they [GW] are considering a relaunch of Adeptus Titanicus.

While legally you are fully correct and I by no means think that reproducing and selling anything that another company sells is a good thing I do not agree. But please consider the circumstances and how these forumware began to exist:
- At the time the forumware was done (years ago) Epic Armageddon was long dead and no models sold by GW / Forgeworld
- The models are not re-casts but some enthusiasts invested hundreds of hours to recreate them at that scale. It's not that GW / Forgeworld provided the 3D data that could be scaled down...
- Only few of those got made and even with the re-launch of Adeptus Titanicus I doubt you will ever see yet be able to get one. And you probably would not want to pay the price you would have to pay
- All in all GW / FW did not lose a single dollar due to this (ok, theoretically a buyer could have used the money to get something else but c'mon ...)

So as said I would not agree: it was merely a work of love for a dead system and - in my eyes - not a deplorable practice. It was the work of some hardcore fans... Yes, legally it is not correct but let's consider the circumstances...

recasting is not an accurate term for this activity. Where is the original 6mm Mars Pattern Warlord Titan that is being recast?

Charax wrote:
recasting is not an accurate term for this activity. Where is the original 6mm Mars Pattern Warlord Titan that is being recast?

Exactly! As I said above some guys invested hundreds of hours (and probably even more money) to make these things. This is not some chinese re-casters that the an existing model make a mold and produce it ...

Grimzim wrote:
At the time the forumware was done (years ago) Epic Armageddon was long dead and no models sold by GW / Forgeworld

So? It doesn't give them the right to reproduce someone elses designs.

- The models are not re-casts but some enthusiasts invested hundreds of hours to recreate them at that scale. It's not that GW / Forgeworld provided the 3D data that could be scaled down...

See above about on why don't they invent their own IP

- Only few of those got made and even with the re-launch of Adeptus Titanicus I doubt you will ever see yet be able to get one. And you probably would not want to pay the price you would have to pay

A quick google show's otherwise. There's so many of these models out there and I'm betting it's not hard to get a hold of them.

- All in all GW / FW did not lose a single dollar due to this

Oh, you weren't joking. Well, considering that Adeptus Titanicus is due to launch soon, I'm sure GW will be pleased as punch to know they are competing with another party who produces their exact designs. "Why bother re-buying my Titans when I already have my own" the thinking will go. Of course, that has the potential to affect all of us due to the game not selling as much as it could if these counterfeits didn't exist. Also, there's the people who'd be fooled into thinking these are genuine pieces due to the fact that they appear on Ebay regularly. Finally, if they've done these, I'd put money down on them recasting official models as well which probably results in peoples collections being worth less than they could if they decide to sell them on.

It's not a good practice and craps over everyone. Like the designs? Get them in 28mm and create a fan based Epic game for 28mm. Like the game Engine? Then create your own IP, don't rip off someone elses.

Hello!

This thread is for discussion of the upcoming product from GW/FW.

Discussion about the legality/morality/ethics of copyright and non-GW products generally are OFF TOPIC.

Please feel free to start a new thread in another subforum about such topics.

Many thanks!

Excellent timing.

deleted

Thanks, Grimzim. Let's return top the topic, folks (although unfortunately, that probably means we've got nothing to discuss until FW gives us another hint...)

Maybe open up a topic regarding the morality of making copies and we move our discussion there?

Let this topic sleep until there's more info.

It's both hilarious and sadly reminding of my age that people were calling the old Reaver "some kind of knight".

How am I feeling old at 35?

Some of this stuff looks familiar, others don't...

Hmm... color me interested.

Those handheld dataslates were at one of the events where they played a titan battle on the floor with reavers, warhounds and warlords. I forget which event, maybe adepticon.

I thought so, but the last two pics (pages from what seems to be the rulebook) are new to me.

They're new, nice find. I'll add them to the op shortly

 Theophony wrote:
Those handheld dataslates were at one of the events where they played a titan battle on the floor with reavers, warhounds and warlords. I forget which event, maybe adepticon.

It was a UK event (at WHW iirc), not Adepticon sadly.

Thanks for all the pics, Malika.

Very interested! Patiently waiting...