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I would urge people to look at the update before this most recent one - which states that 4 resin miniatures were completely produced, in hand, and ready to ship. This update shows that they are actually not ready and are now being produced by another company.

not to mention they're looking at alternate production methods for the plastic which is a very bad sign as they should have known how they were going to make them right from the start

The plastic was always one of the big issues with this campaign; esp since it was to be used only to fillful this campaign without any intention of them being long term investments coupled to the fact that their new Confrontation games were to use totally new sculpts anyway.


Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they end up doing this run of resin, leaving it a few months and then telling backers the plastic has failed and converting all their orders to resin. Leaving people to question if that was their plan all along and the plastic was just to lure people who might otherwise avoid resin, in to pledging; or if they honestly had some huge missunderstandings as to the nature of plastic casting and what is possible.


Then again could be they've got a plastic casting method that will deliver, which would be great for all the backers!

I'm so sorry for anyone who invested in this but my GOD! am I glad I read the signs early on and jumped ship

 Overread wrote:
The plastic was always one of the big issues with this campaign; esp since it was to be used only to fillful this campaign without any intention of them being long term investments coupled to the fact that their new Confrontation games were to use totally new sculpts anyway.


Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they end up doing this run of resin, leaving it a few months and then telling backers the plastic has failed and converting all their orders to resin. Leaving people to question if that was their plan all along and the plastic was just to lure people who might otherwise avoid resin, in to pledging; or if they honestly had some huge missunderstandings as to the nature of plastic casting and what is possible.


Then again could be they've got a plastic casting method that will deliver, which would be great for all the backers!

I don't see a company circling the drain somehow coming up with funds to produce a crapton of figures in an even more expensive and labor intensive casting method.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Overread wrote:
The plastic was always one of the big issues with this campaign; esp since it was to be used only to fillful this campaign without any intention of them being long term investments coupled to the fact that their new Confrontation games were to use totally new sculpts anyway.


Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they end up doing this run of resin, leaving it a few months and then telling backers the plastic has failed and converting all their orders to resin. Leaving people to question if that was their plan all along and the plastic was just to lure people who might otherwise avoid resin, in to pledging; or if they honestly had some huge missunderstandings as to the nature of plastic casting and what is possible.


Then again could be they've got a plastic casting method that will deliver, which would be great for all the backers!

I don't see a company circling the drain somehow coming up with funds to produce a crapton of figures in an even more expensive and labor intensive casting method.

True, but at the same time the high costs for resin/metal is in manhours whilst the high cost for plastic is a one time lump some on the moulds. So whilst resin might cost more in man-hours its a cost they can likely soak because its a smaller trickle of money rather htan a massive payment for typical moulds for injection moulding.
It's why startup and smaller companies often use resin and/or metal instead of plastic because whilst the raw resource and man hours are more costly; the cost to get started is drastically lower. It's also why many big KS use KS just to generate enough in a bulk order to be able to afford that initial outlay in plastic.

So I can well see SD limping on and doing a steady trickle of resin more so than suddenly finding the money for dozens of plastic moulds - heck even if they jam multiple models onto single moulds its still going to be a huge startup cost unless they come up with a different production method.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
I would urge people to look at the update before this most recent one - which states that 4 resin miniatures were completely produced, in hand, and ready to ship. This update shows that they are actually not ready and are now being produced by another company.

While there's a lot to criticize SD for the reason for the company change is the other one went out of business. Not much they can do about that and we've known about it for months even though SD hasn't addressed it until now that I'm aware of. That's probably where the first 4 came from.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

HaleysRedComet wrote:
I would urge people to look at the update before this most recent one - which states that 4 resin miniatures were completely produced, in hand, and ready to ship. This update shows that they are actually not ready and are now being produced by another company.

While there's a lot to criticize SD for the reason for the company change is the other one went out of business. Not much they can do about that and we've known about it for months even though SD hasn't addressed it until now that I'm aware of. That's probably where the first 4 came from.

This is the issue I have from the last update:

"We’ve received all of the production from Hysterical Games (the Cynwall Wyrm, Belial, the Eclipsante Bust, and the Mid-Nor Hydra) and are currently preparing the models to be packaged (we need to remove the larger bits of resin flash from the castings first)."

This was obviously not true. They did not receive all the production from Hysterical, they were not preparing them for packaging. They would not need them to be produced by another company if this were in any way true - it was a lie.

Obviously they haven't started shipping but all their statement says is they got everything Hysterical finished and they're packaging those figures up. Not even if it was enough to cover all the backers that wanted resin of those 4 models. Nothing that said they were going to ship stuff out.

So saying that part was a lie is stretching and it's true SD isn't very truthful but that statement is not saying they're done with resin production and things will be shipping. Maybe elsewhere in that update they say they will ship but not in that sentence.

my buddy, a huge confron fan, got a bad feeling about this and cancelled his pledge the last day. I really hope this works out for all of you who supported.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Obviously they haven't started shipping but all their statement says is they got everything Hysterical finished and they're packaging those figures up. Not even if it was enough to cover all the backers that wanted resin of those 4 models. Nothing that said they were going to ship stuff out.

So saying that part was a lie is stretching and it's true SD isn't very truthful but that statement is not saying they're done with resin production and things will be shipping. Maybe elsewhere in that update they say they will ship but not in that sentence.

I am quoting update #51 here:

"Our first wave of shipping will start next week so that you’ll be able to get these first pieces quickly. "

So they just announced that they are switching from plastic to metal to honor the original figures.

Link for those interested

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/posts/2527911


Honestly I'm willing to bet this was their plan all along, or if it wasn't then anyone on their team who has any sane idea of the cost of plastics knew it was going to fail.


Also they showed some metal castings, have they shown any plastic castings yet through the entire campaign?



Honestly not a shock, but at the same time better than I hoped! Shifting back to metal means backers might well get their models, sure not in the "right material" but at least in a material and from castings that should deliver the original quality of the models. So that is actually very pleasing to hear. Far better than the prolonged no delivery and increasing costs required to deliver plastics followed by it likely all failing or delivery of substandard plastics.

The switch to metal really throws me for a loop. It's what I would have wanted this whole time. So many issues I had with the project revolved around miniature quality and preserving it from the original casts, which now seems to be totally a non-issue. Granted, I haven't seen really good pics of their production so there could be some issues, but they're not altering masters to do this so that's good. However, they also stated they will not change their shipping charges because of this. The switch to metal will drastically increase their shipping costs, but I suppose moving to metal saves a lot of money on production as well.

I still don't necessarily trust Sans Detour with the license, they have shown themselves to be - at best - dishonest with their projects as recently as the update before this. I think their lack of understanding about the actual game of Confrontation is still something to worry about when looking further down the road at a new edition. I suppose we will have to see how this works for them and how the miniatures turn out, as well as if this is still something people want. Most of all - I really wish this was the plan from the beginning.

IIRC, they initially didn't want to do it in metal because of the shipping costs.
Isn't the box like 250 minis? Shipping that worldwide is very prohibitive. I really don't understand how that can work out.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
The switch to metal really throws me for a loop. It's what I would have wanted this whole time. So many issues I had with the project revolved around miniature quality and preserving it from the original casts, which now seems to be totally a non-issue. Granted, I haven't seen really good pics of their production so there could be some issues, but they're not altering masters to do this so that's good. However, they also stated they will not change their shipping charges because of this. The switch to metal will drastically increase their shipping costs, but I suppose moving to metal saves a lot of money on production as well.

I still don't necessarily trust Sans Detour with the license, they have shown themselves to be - at best - dishonest with their projects as recently as the update before this. I think their lack of understanding about the actual game of Confrontation is still something to worry about when looking further down the road at a new edition. I suppose we will have to see how this works for them and how the miniatures turn out, as well as if this is still something people want. Most of all - I really wish this was the plan from the beginning.

The silly thing is if this was what they'd launched with at the very start they wouldn't have earned the huge red warning flags that were thrown up and they could have charged a fair rate for the shipping right then. So they'd likely have had WAY more people backing and earned way more money from the campaign and had reduced postage costs.

It was their idea of chasing plastic that was a huge warning flag to many with the values they were raising through the KS; as well as the fact that their overall plan was to abandon all the models at the end of the campaign for a new roster of designs for Resurrection which was a further huge warning when one considers the costs of plastic moulds.

 Overread wrote:

HaleysRedComet wrote:
The switch to metal really throws me for a loop. It's what I would have wanted this whole time. So many issues I had with the project revolved around miniature quality and preserving it from the original casts, which now seems to be totally a non-issue. Granted, I haven't seen really good pics of their production so there could be some issues, but they're not altering masters to do this so that's good. However, they also stated they will not change their shipping charges because of this. The switch to metal will drastically increase their shipping costs, but I suppose moving to metal saves a lot of money on production as well.

I still don't necessarily trust Sans Detour with the license, they have shown themselves to be - at best - dishonest with their projects as recently as the update before this. I think their lack of understanding about the actual game of Confrontation is still something to worry about when looking further down the road at a new edition. I suppose we will have to see how this works for them and how the miniatures turn out, as well as if this is still something people want. Most of all - I really wish this was the plan from the beginning.

The silly thing is if this was what they'd launched with at the very start they wouldn't have earned the huge red warning flags that were thrown up and they could have charged a fair rate for the shipping right then. So they'd likely have had WAY more people backing and earned way more money from the campaign and had reduced postage costs.

It was their idea of chasing plastic that was a huge warning flag to many with the values they were raising through the KS; as well as the fact that their overall plan was to abandon all the models at the end of the campaign for a new roster of designs for Resurrection which was a further huge warning when one considers the costs of plastic moulds.

All those issues still exist, which is still a problem. Does SD still plan to move ahead with plastic manufacturing for future projects? How much will this change effect people requesting refunds? Will they allow for people to jump on now that they moved to metal? What level of trust can backers have in SD's planning for future projects? How much will each box cost them to ship?

I am still not a fan of SD, but I cannot say that this is not what I would have wanted from the start.

Wow i did not back it because i did not want plastics. Now the say they switch to metal. 300euro for 178 miniatures, really good price.
Oh and 75 minis in stretch goal if i understand correctly?
So about 1 euro per miniature? Can that really be true? What cost the material for 1 metal miniature?

Too good to be true...?

If they actually deliver that i will be so jelous.

I would have backed at some level for metal, not because I prefer that over plastic (I don't) but because SD was clueless on plastic and threw so many red flags that wouldn't have been there with metal.

Of course you still have all their other sketchy behavior, like not paying licensing fees or for product they were shipped and sold to customers via their store front. But that all came out post KSer.

Well, considering they had an insanely large stock of the old confrontation figures that they never sold before going out of business, I wouldnt be surprised if they'll just unbox all the old figures and send them out.claiming to be new casts.

A double win, it's cheaper to do, and they get to pretend it's newly made and not part of the assets that might be at risk in the administration of Ludic Bazzar etc

well, let's try to break this down a bit. ballpark figures.



They totalled just over 400.000 euros in pledges. take away 10% for KS fees and such and you get a number around 360 000 euros. add to this an unkown amount in late pledges and pledge upgrades, Was there a pledge manager at all?



we are looking at about 250+ unique miniatures that all need to be cast somewhere between 1200-2000 copies of. say 1500 casts of each mini to make the numbers simple. Any way you look at it, 250 minis times 1500 copies gets 375.000 minis needing casting. Is there any chance in the world that each mini on average will cost significantly less than 1 euro to cast? In Europe? Presumably at EU-approved salaries? I really hope for their own sake that De Tinnen Ross require payment in advance of doing any work here.



They are making one mould per mini it seems. Many of these minis are in several parts, increasing the number of moulds needed. The examples in the pictures have 16 one piece minis, the other has 7 multipart minis per mould. How many times can a mould be run before needing replacement? I have no idea. More than resin, but significantly less than plastic. Anyway, if the moulds cost like 50 euro each to make, you still are looking at a bare minimum of 12500 just for one mould of each. Times this with how many moulds wear out casting 1500 minis.



So basically the wad is already blown before any talk of shipping costs. Which will be significant considering weight of a given parcel will approach 10 kilos.



Yes, there might be a large back stock of old Rackham castings that will mitigate the production costs, but that is purely speculation.



My ballpark numbers might also be off. But you get the idea here. so you might say I find this update slightly too good to be true.

They could always cast them in an insured warehouse and--

Oh no! Somebody threw a cigarette in the wastebin and now the whole place is on fire! It's a total loss! We definitely did not pack all the miniatures into a grandparent's garage and then fill the warehouse with empty boxes!

 Maledrakh wrote:
How many times can a mould be run before needing replacement? I have no idea. More than resin, but significantly less than plastic.

Up to a thousand or so, if they're looked after and the models aren't too savage on them. So most models aren't going to need multiple moulds, even if they start combining models - which would be the smart thing to do given that they have known production volumes required. Maximise the mould distribution to get as many casts out of as few moulds as possible without wearing out the moulds too far - potentially cuts the number of moulds they need by a factor of 10.

So you are getting more than 1200€ of minis for just 300€...mhm....and they will cover extra shipping costs that all those minis upgraded to metal will incur... ever heard about deal being too good to be true? xD

This is getting better and better

They must have sat down and done the calculations and seen its still do-able with the money they have...perhaps not at much profit, but if it keeps their reputation intact and allows them to move forward with the license for the new edition, then perhaps it will all be worth their while. That said, with it being delivered in waves by pledge number, I wouldn't wanna be someone in the #2000's lol.

anab0lic wrote:
They must have sat down and done the calculations and seen its still do-able with the money they have...perhaps not at much profit, but if it keeps their reputation intact and allows them to move forward with the license for the new edition, then perhaps it will all be worth their while. That said, with it being delivered in waves by pledge number, I wouldn't wanna be someone in the #2000's lol.

Well, they didn't pay royalties on a license for years. They apparently lied about the advancement of their project (at some point the minis were cast and ready to ship, a while later that said they didn't have any ready and had to change the company doing the casting). They tried to do plastic minis without any knowledge of the process or any clue about the money required.
So it's not because it takes 5mins to see that the numbers don't add up that SD will acknowledge it and try something else. They're at best very bad with numbers and managing finances, at worst they're real crooks.
I also doubt they could afford to do a lot of work with very little or no profit. They had serious financial problems recently.

I think they realized they screwed up with the initial promise, that they were way over their head with the plastic stuff (hence the move to metal), and probably wish they could just cancel everything. But they probably don't have the cash to refund everyone anymore, which is why they keep stalling, hoping they'll find a way to fix everything, or that the company will somehow bounce back and be able to deliver something decent at a loss for them.

fresus wrote:

anab0lic wrote:
They must have sat down and done the calculations and seen its still do-able with the money they have...perhaps not at much profit, but if it keeps their reputation intact and allows them to move forward with the license for the new edition, then perhaps it will all be worth their while. That said, with it being delivered in waves by pledge number, I wouldn't wanna be someone in the #2000's lol.

Well, they didn't pay royalties on a license for years. They apparently lied about the advancement of their project (at some point the minis were cast and ready to ship, a while later that said they didn't have any ready and had to change the company doing the casting). They tried to do plastic minis without any knowledge of the process or any clue about the money required.
So it's not because it takes 5mins to see that the numbers don't add up that SD will acknowledge it and try something else. They're at best very bad with numbers and managing finances, at worst they're real crooks.
I also doubt they could afford to do a lot of work with very little or no profit. They had serious financial problems recently.

I think they realized they screwed up with the initial promise, that they were way over their head with the plastic stuff (hence the move to metal), and probably wish they could just cancel everything. But they probably don't have the cash to refund everyone anymore, which is why they keep stalling, hoping they'll find a way to fix everything, or that the company will somehow bounce back and be able to deliver something decent at a loss for them.

I have pretty much the same opinion about this.
My prediction: they'll start the KS for their Confrontation Resurrection soon to cover costs for this Classic KS.

Honestly their plans are rather nuts - they ran a huge KS to generate huge amounts of money to one-time sell a bunch of classic sculpts for a game that has been dead for years. Then they were going to use their own money to relaunch the dead game with a brand new selection of sculpts in a brand new game setting all without touching the money from the kickstarter.

It's a very strange way to relaunch your company by taking a lions share of keen fans money to plough into what is basically a side project. Especially when large kickstarters make even established companies struggle to juggle regular and KS fullfillment and development.

In addition they appeared to have no idea how much plastic casting would cost; nor the realities of it, esp when they didn't even have masters of the models to work from. It was almost like a spur of the moment choice "hey lets go plastic".


Couple all that to sub-company liquidations, lack of paying royalties, lack of professional conduct and understanding of their own market segment (eg how to work with plastics). They just sound so many layers of odd.

I'd think there are more red flags now then ever before on this one.

This will end in tears - (almost) no doubt about it!