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I currently have 1000 points of Grey knights (Librarian, three squads of Terminators and a Dreadknight). I'm doing really well with them, but like the idea of adding in an Imperial Knight Crusader for some long range firepower, something the Grey Knights really lack - plus the model looks really cool.

At what points cost is having a Knight ally acceptable? Adding him to my 1000 points to make a 1500 point army, or wait until I have 1500 and add him to make it 2000?

I don't play competitively, and enjoy casual games with a large group of semi-regular opponents, and certainly don't want to put people off playing me or make them think I'm being cheesy.

Any advice would be great! Thanks

Hard question to answer as many people will have differing opinions, and it's really an opinion based answer. I'd say a knight is reasonable in a list over 1000 points.

Superheavies belong in Apoc.

I personally don't think superheavies should be used at anything below 1850-2000 (and even then don't like to play with them), but (against me anyways) it's no huge deal if you want to use it at 1500.

What sort of people are you playing against, how do you fare, does anyone else use superheavies, do people have ways of dealing with them, how are you defining "casual", have you asked any of them "Hey, what do you think of superheavies? I think they're cool and was thinking about getting a knight, was curious if you guys would be fine playing against one?".

It varies between all groups, I know people that think a gladius is casual, where others think anything that isn't footslogging tacticals is cheese. You know these people better than I do, and you know your meta better than I do, so it's hard for me to outright say what will work best for you. I say yeah, it's fine, but YMMV.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Superheavies belong in Apoc.

Knights don't perform like a real superheavy. They are about on par with an MC in terms of durability.

Martel732 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Superheavies belong in Apoc.

Knights don't perform like a real superheavy. They are about on par with an MC in terms of durability.

little better then that but ultimately I think IKs are balanced for the points you pay.

fact is apolclypse doesn't really exist anymore. in terms of when to use or not use an IK, I'd say it depends really. IMHO a single IK in a force of GKs should be fine in just about any game over 700 points. if your opponent can't crack the IK, chances are he'd have trouble cracking a land raider or two (something you could take a fair number of as a GK player)

Martel732 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Superheavies belong in Apoc.

Knights don't perform like a real superheavy. They are about on par with an MC in terms of durability.

One Super Heavy stays, they all stay.

Okay, just saying.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Superheavies belong in Apoc.

Knights don't perform like a real superheavy. They are about on par with an MC in terms of durability.

One Super Heavy stays, they all stay.

this BTW is why asking on dakkadakka isn't really worth your time, discuss it with your regular opponents. views on IKs vary, and some partiuclarly conservitive people can't get past that it's a super heavy

Cower before my AV 12 sides! And my ability to absorb 1/5th of the firepower that a Riptide can!

As said in larger games like 1850 pts a superheavy like an IK is acceptable.
Please have a look into the Lanchester square law. Double armor requires fourfold fire power to take it down.

Martel732 wrote:
Cower before my AV 12 sides! And my ability to absorb 1/5th of the firepower that a Riptide can!

I'm all about equality. If people have to cower before the Imperial Knight they can just as easily cower before a Wraith Knight.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Cower before my AV 12 sides! And my ability to absorb 1/5th of the firepower that a Riptide can!

I'm all about equality. If people have to cower before the Imperial Knight they can just as easily cower before a Wraith Knight.

the big differance between the two is the IK isn't criminally under costed

I was being sarcastic. Bring all the IKs you want. They're kinda junky in the scheme of things. They cost way too much to have AV 12 anything, much less on 3 out of 4 sides.

Martel732 wrote:
I was being sarcastic. Bring all the IKs you want. They're kinda junky in the scheme of things. They cost way too much to have AV 12 anything, much less on 3 out of 4 sides.

disagree with that they're solid units they're just not dramaticly OP. they're honestly pretty balanced for their points, hence my earlier comment about some people not being able to get over their "super heavy status"

BrianDavion wrote:
fact is apolclypse doesn't really exist anymore. in terms of when to use or not use an IK, I'd say it depends really. IMHO a single IK in a force of GKs should be fine in just about any game over 700 points. if your opponent can't crack the IK, chances are he'd have trouble cracking a land raider or two (something you could take a fair number of as a GK player)

To be fair, not every army can bring a lot of anti-armor to small games. Just thinking of my guard I need at least 170 points and good rolls (thinking a manticore, which I normally don't take in small games) to take out a knight, taking 4 turns. Otherwise it's at least 2 squads of meltavets which is about 400 points, and if it's a dakkaknight I'll have trouble getting into melta range. I pay out the butt for lascannons as they're either on expense and squishy HWS or one per 10 man squad. Again, at large points values it's fine because I'll have 3 squads of meltavets and a manticore and russes and lascannons but at 1000 I can't always put half my list into purely anti-tank options.

Comparing a knight to a LR isn't always a good idea either, as while they're tough their shooting is generally mediocre, have the damage table (including exploding to a single shot), and only pose a melee threat if you buy another expensive unit to put inside (note that this unit doesn't have a D weapon or stomps). Which, once it kills through the original target, gets mowed down immediately by everything that can't hurt a knight. I can pop a land raider with a single melta bomb or a single melta shot or 2-3 rounds from my manticore instead of using all 4 missiles (forcing damage results every turn).

1000 is just too unlikely to have a balanced list for everything, especially if you're in a casual meta where people aren't always taking a minmaxed list with no fat around the edges.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Cower before my AV 12 sides! And my ability to absorb 1/5th of the firepower that a Riptide can!

I'm all about equality. If people have to cower before the Imperial Knight they can just as easily cower before a Wraith Knight.

the big differance between the two is the IK isn't criminally under costed

The fairest way to be rid of them is to be rid of ALL of them.

Can we get rid of DKs and Riptides, too? Since, you know, they're better than most super heavies?

Martel732 wrote:
Can we get rid of DKs and Riptides, too? Since, you know, they're better than most super heavies?

and let's get rid of thunder wolf cavalry while we're at it, hell let's just remove everything but a tatical squad and rhinos!

Exactly. Superheavy is a relatively arbitrary designation that makes walkers functional and MCs obscene.

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Can we get rid of DKs and Riptides, too? Since, you know, they're better than most super heavies?

and let's get rid of thunder wolf cavalry while we're at it, hell let's just remove everything but a tatical squad and rhinos!

Thunderwolves are amazing but not overcosted at all, they're like wraiths basically, quite durable but not immortal, fast, but lacking AP and high strenght attacks, they only rely on rending... grav spam is a real issue, more than DKs and riptides, those damn things should have a single shot. Also free vehicles are unacceptable.

Taking one IK in a 1500-1850 points game is fine, 1000 points of GK and an IK are far from being an invincible force.

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Can we get rid of DKs and Riptides, too? Since, you know, they're better than most super heavies?

and let's get rid of thunder wolf cavalry while we're at it, hell let's just remove everything but a tatical squad and rhinos!

Martel would be all for that, it's all his Blood Angels have.

Personally I like to harken back to the days of not being allowed to take special characters in games under 1500 pts. As such, ID be happy to field or go up against a knight in games of 1500+. Anything less than that just doesn't look right on the field to me.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Can we get rid of DKs and Riptides, too? Since, you know, they're better than most super heavies?

and let's get rid of thunder wolf cavalry while we're at it, hell let's just remove everything but a tatical squad and rhinos!

Martel would be all for that, it's all his Blood Angels have.

Not really. At any rate, anyone who thinks IKs are not fair around 1250 or 1000 better hope they don't see Riptides, either. Same problem, but 5X worse.

Martel732 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Can we get rid of DKs and Riptides, too? Since, you know, they're better than most super heavies?

and let's get rid of thunder wolf cavalry while we're at it, hell let's just remove everything but a tatical squad and rhinos!

Martel would be all for that, it's all his Blood Angels have.

Not really. At any rate, anyone who thinks IKs are not fair around 1250 or 1000 better hope they don't see Riptides, either. Same problem, but 5X worse.

It isn't all they have or it wouldn't make you happy.
I know happiness isn't a particularly natural state for you...

In my opinion, it honestly depends. 40k is so unbalanced that it could vary depending who you are playing. Discuss it with your opponents. As long as they have something to deal with it, it might be fair game. What if they bring a Riptide, or a Wraithknight too? etc. etc.

The point is that you can kill IKs with damn autocannons pretty readily. Rapidly even if they are outflanking. They are super fragile for a 400 pt model.

"It isn't all they have or it wouldn't make you happy. "

Both. I don't mind people having their toys, they just need to cost an appropriate amount.

If it hasn't been made clear already by the bickering, Dakkadakka is not the place to get a useful answer to your question.

Ask your normal opponents, see what they think. They're the ones you'll need to play against, not Dakka Wolf, not me, and not any other dakkadakka user.

At the end of the day it's down to your local group as to what they will find fair.

Me personally, I have no issues with them.
Throw one in a 1k list for all I care.
If you can't kill a knight then your army has severe issues and most people are going to beat you.

If it happened to be 14/14/14 then it would be a pain, but it's flimsy, 6HP and easily killed.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
If it hasn't been made clear already by the bickering, Dakkadakka is not the place to get a useful answer to your question.

Ask your normal opponents, see what they think. They're the ones you'll need to play against, not Dakka Wolf, not me, and not any other dakkadakka user.

It's a question of the local meta which only you can answer. Do your opponents bring regularly superheavies like a WK?
In the tournament scene you will see superheavies at a regular basis.