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Hello all, i was just wondering what are the best special weapons are for a standard IG squad of cadian shock troops?
Thanks for the help

Flamers and grenade launchers, they're cheap and don't require you to use the bad BS rating, flamers are really handy when you're inevitably assaulted. Melta is too expensive for 1 shot @ BS3. Plasma is terrible on regular bros. Save the powerful weapons for mechanised veterans.

 MarsNZ wrote:
Flamers and grenade launchers, they're cheap and don't require you to use the bad BS rating, flamers are really handy when you're inevitably assaulted. Melta is too expensive for 1 shot @ BS3. Plasma is terrible on regular bros. Save the powerful weapons for mechanised veterans.

This is the opposite of the truth. Flamers and grenade launchers are trash, they cost points but never scare anything. Melta and plasma may be a little less reliable at BS 3 than at BS 4 but it's still a lot more likely to do something than a flamer or grenade launcher.

Same old old old question.....what do you want your squad to hunt / kill?
Whats their role, purpose, tactics?

Every answer here is meaningless bloat without a tactically defined role.

 Peregrine wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
Flamers and grenade launchers, they're cheap and don't require you to use the bad BS rating, flamers are really handy when you're inevitably assaulted. Melta is too expensive for 1 shot @ BS3. Plasma is terrible on regular bros. Save the powerful weapons for mechanised veterans.

This is the opposite of the truth. Flamers and grenade launchers are trash, they cost points but never scare anything. Melta and plasma may be a little less reliable at BS 3 than at BS 4 but it's still a lot more likely to do something than a flamer or grenade launcher.

More likely to cook your own guys, sure. And it only quadruples the cost of your model. What a bargain.

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
Flamers and grenade launchers, they're cheap and don't require you to use the bad BS rating, flamers are really handy when you're inevitably assaulted. Melta is too expensive for 1 shot @ BS3. Plasma is terrible on regular bros. Save the powerful weapons for mechanised veterans.

This is the opposite of the truth. Flamers and grenade launchers are trash, they cost points but never scare anything. Melta and plasma may be a little less reliable at BS 3 than at BS 4 but it's still a lot more likely to do something than a flamer or grenade launcher.

More likely to cook your own guys, sure. And it only quadruples the cost of your model. What a bargain.

A single Plasma Guns will always do more than 3 Grenade Launchers.

If you're in fear of being assaulted a flamer may be some deterrent.

Otherwise i'd go for the grenade launcher, cheap and flexible. Anything moreso is a waste on a non dedicated , non mechanised unit

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

A single Plasma Guns will always do more than 3 Grenade Launchers.

Elementary mathematics disagrees with your hyperbole.

 Peregrine wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
Flamers and grenade launchers, they're cheap and don't require you to use the bad BS rating, flamers are really handy when you're inevitably assaulted. Melta is too expensive for 1 shot @ BS3. Plasma is terrible on regular bros. Save the powerful weapons for mechanised veterans.

This is the opposite of the truth. Flamers and grenade launchers are trash, they cost points but never scare anything. Melta and plasma may be a little less reliable at BS 3 than at BS 4 but it's still a lot more likely to do something than a flamer or grenade launcher.

Once upon a time a long time ago I read a peice by a blogger that made what I thought was a fairly important point, that flamers bypassing the to-hit roll somehow is never as sexy to 40k players as getting to bypass the armour save, despite both requiring two rolls to deal damage instead of three.

The problem with that argument is that the save roll is almost always better than the chance of missing (a BS3 model has the same chance of missing as a 4+ armour save), so unless you're using a low-BS army against a low-save army the better AP off plasma weapons is going to be more useful. Which is, in point of fact, part of why the plasma weapon is more expensive than the alternative.

That said if we turn the question around and ask how you'd want to use plasma guns in the Guard list, you could be getting three BS3 plasmaguns for 75pts in a Special Weapon squad, three BS4 plasmaguns for 105pts in a Veteran squad, or one BS3 plasmagun for 65pts in a Guardsmen squad, so it isn't a particularly effective or efficient way to use them; you need 195pts of basic Guard squads to match the firepower of a 75pt special weapon squad, and 260pts to match the firepower of a 105pt Veteran squad.

Personally I'm of the opinion that you take regular Guard squads as opposed to Veterans when you're trying to keep them cheap and/or when you're trying to play area denial/hold backfield objectives, so I'd recommend sniper rifles or grenade launchers for cheapness and range.

 MarsNZ wrote:
Elementary mathematics disagrees with your hyperbole.

Nope. Let's assume you're shooting at an MEQ model. The plasma gun and krak grenades will inflict the same number of average wounds (ignoring the 3+ save exactly balances out the 3:1 shot ratio) from 12-24", but the plasma gun will double the wounds it inflicts from 0-12". Against MCs the plasma gun wins at 12-24", since STR 7 vs. STR 6 is now relevant. The grenade launchers do win against light infantry, but it shouldn't be any surprise that a specialized anti-elite weapon isn't the best against hordes.

Grenade launchers are either inferior boltguns or blast lasguns. Flamers are too short ranged to be useful as weapons in an army that prefers long ranged shooting. Plasma Guns synergize better with Guard's gunline tactics and will actually accomplish something. Remember, a Grenade Launcher may be cheaper than a Plasma Gun but the Plasma Gun has a chance of actually accomplishing something of value.

 Soteks Prophet wrote:
Otherwise i'd go for the grenade launcher, cheap and flexible.

Being bad at multiple things is not "flexible".

 MarsNZ wrote:
And it only quadruples the cost of your model.

Who cares about the cost of the model? What matters is the total cost of the unit, not how that cost is allocated between models. And a squad with a flamer/GL costs 55 points, compared to 60 points for melta or 65 points for plasma. That's a modest price increase for a significant increase in power.

Let me know when grenade launchers get hot.

 Peregrine wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
Elementary mathematics disagrees with your hyperbole.

Nope. Let's assume you're shooting at an MEQ model. The plasma gun and krak grenades will inflict the same number of average wounds (ignoring the 3+ save exactly balances out the 3:1 shot ratio) from 12-24", but the plasma gun will double the wounds it inflicts from 0-12". Against MCs the plasma gun wins at 12-24", since STR 7 vs. STR 6 is now relevant. The grenade launchers do win against light infantry, but it shouldn't be any surprise that a specialized anti-elite weapon isn't the best against hordes.

Shock and horror. The generalist weapon is worse against hard targets than the specialized anti-hard-targets weapon.

 MarsNZ wrote:
Let me know when grenade launchers get hot.

Who cares about that. It's a 1/9 chance to lose a model. If you somehow manage to fire the plasma gun all game you might lose the model every game or two. I'll gladly take a 1/9 chance of death in exchange for actually being a threat to something. Firing once and then dying is still going to accomplish more than the average grenade launcher model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Shock and horror. The generalist weapon is worse against hard targets than the specialized anti-hard-targets weapon.

Grenade launchers aren't generalist weapons, they're bad weapons. They're bad against elites, and they're bad against hordes. If you aren't taking your special weapons to kill hard targets then you might as well just keep the lasgun.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
Elementary mathematics disagrees with your hyperbole.

Nope. Let's assume you're shooting at an MEQ model. The plasma gun and krak grenades will inflict the same number of average wounds (ignoring the 3+ save exactly balances out the 3:1 shot ratio) from 12-24", but the plasma gun will double the wounds it inflicts from 0-12". Against MCs the plasma gun wins at 12-24", since STR 7 vs. STR 6 is now relevant. The grenade launchers do win against light infantry, but it shouldn't be any surprise that a specialized anti-elite weapon isn't the best against hordes.

Shock and horror. The generalist weapon is worse against hard targets than the specialized anti-hard-targets weapon.

The problem is that you are giving up a special weapon slot for something the Guard can already do. Lasguns, Heavy Bolters and blast weapons are common in any decent list. What does the Grenade Launcher provide that these weapons don't? Their redundancy is made even worse by units like the Wyvern or the Manticore.

Grenade launchers are either inferior boltguns or blast lasguns. Flamers are too short ranged to be useful as weapons in an army that prefers long ranged shooting. Plasma Guns synergize better with Guard's gunline tactics and will actually accomplish something. Remember, a Grenade Launcher may be cheaper than a Plasma Gun but the Plasma Gun has a chance of actually accomplishing something of value.

Not singling you out TCL but this is my exact point.

What if one is not playing an IG gunline?

What if one is playing Chimera rush?

Or Elysians?

Or combined arms?

Or tank heavy?

My point is, the OP's point is so utterly moot as to be meaningless unless we know what he wants said squad to do / build and his ideas.
These type of threads pop up weekly if not daily.

Rhino Vs Razor
Mekguns Vs Lootas
Grav VS Melta squads
2 Carnis VS Tyranno
etc etc etc

pfffff I dunno, meaningless is all I can say.

Peregrine wrote:
Who cares about the cost of the model? What matters is

Peregrine wrote:

Who cares about that.

Some solid arguments.

 MarsNZ wrote:
Some solid arguments.

Ok, then perhaps you could enlighten us on why the cost of an individual model matters in a game where you buy entire units at a time, not individual models?

 Ratius wrote:

Grenade launchers are either inferior boltguns or blast lasguns. Flamers are too short ranged to be useful as weapons in an army that prefers long ranged shooting. Plasma Guns synergize better with Guard's gunline tactics and will actually accomplish something. Remember, a Grenade Launcher may be cheaper than a Plasma Gun but the Plasma Gun has a chance of actually accomplishing something of value.

Not singling you out TCL but this is my exact point.

What if one is not playing an IG gunline?

What if one is playing Chimera rush?

Or Elysians?

Or combined arms?

Or tank heavy?

My point is, the OP's point is so utterly moot as to be meaningless unless we know what he wants said squad to do / build and his ideas.
These type of threads pop up weekly if not daily.

Rhino Vs Razor
Mekguns Vs Lootas
Grav VS Melta squads
2 Carnis VS Tyranno
etc etc etc

pfffff I dunno, meaningless is all I can say.

These builds would involve using veterans at their core who are still best equipped with Plasma and Melta anyway. I mean, if you're using an assault infantry heavy horde backed up with priests/commissars then I could see the flamer as being valuable. But you're right. The OP should state what list he is planning on running for the best advice.

 Peregrine wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
Flamers and grenade launchers, they're cheap and don't require you to use the bad BS rating, flamers are really handy when you're inevitably assaulted. Melta is too expensive for 1 shot @ BS3. Plasma is terrible on regular bros. Save the powerful weapons for mechanised veterans.

This is the opposite of the truth. Flamers and grenade launchers are trash, they cost points but never scare anything. Melta and plasma may be a little less reliable at BS 3 than at BS 4 but it's still a lot more likely to do something than a flamer or grenade launcher.

That is just some bad advice imo to a new IG player. Sure the pt increase seem modest until you do that across the whole army, you can get a LRBT out of that. Also when you upgrade them with plasma for instance, you will try to do too much with them, rest of the las fire are wasted. There is a reason why the traditional GL and AC combined squads goes well together, because it does. Reserve the plasma and melta to special squads/command teams and vets, as they can have more concentrated fire and a smaller foot print on the field.

 Peregrine wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
Some solid arguments.

Ok, then perhaps you could enlighten us on why the cost of an individual model matters in a game where you buy entire units at a time, not individual models?

I doubt you really care

 Big Mac wrote:
Sure the pt increase seem modest until you do that across the whole army, you can get a LRBT out of that.

Then you can get a second LRBT by removing the worthless flamers and grenade launchers. And a third by removing the infantry squads. And a fourth by removing the first LRBT. At some point you have to accept that building units the correct way costs points, and taking ineffective units to save 5 points here and there is not a winning strategy.

Also when you upgrade them with plasma for instance, you will try to do too much with them, rest of the las fire are wasted.

Then you might as well put your plasma guns in immediately so you can learn how to play the game. There's no sense in bringing trash to a game just so you can avoid having to learn something you'll need to learn eventually anyway.

There is a reason why the traditional GL and AC combined squads goes well together, because it does.

No, the reason is that myths about effectiveness (often based on ignoring the math) get repeated over and over again without questioning why people are doing it. AC/GL squads are trash.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MarsNZ wrote:
I doubt you really care

That's certainly much easier than providing an actual argument. I'll take this as your concession that you were wrong, and just too stubborn to admit it.

 Peregrine wrote:


That's certainly much easier than providing an actual argument. I'll take this as your concession that you were wrong, and just too stubborn to admit it.

Yeah mate chalk up another huge win

I gotta agree with Peregrine on this one. I use the grenade launchers occasionally as I think they're fluffy and nice looking (not to mention the bits being abundant) but it is a trash weapon. You have limited number of squads and thus limited number of special weapon 'slots' so better actually use them for weapons which can actually accomplish something. Plasma and AC is the way to go, both are effective against infantry (and that's the main target for your infantry squads due the lasguns) and can also threaten light vehicles and MCs if needed.

Or if you want to keep your squads cheap, then it is still better to just leave the GLs home and save those points too. I wish it would be an useful weapon as I thematically like it, but it just isn't.

Damn what did i just start by mistake!
Sorry guys, Would it make any sense if i was to have a few models with each and just change them out when i need to ?
Trying to keep everyone happy!
Love from Scotland

OP IG follow the rule of three. The first is for getting killed, the second for missing and the third is for killing. Using plasma on IG basic troops is a horrible idea, if you want to kill MEQ bring wyverns they do the job properly. Put flamers on them and use them to deal with deep striking units near your line (or better yet use the points in some thing else).

Rheumatoid wrote:
Sorry guys, Would it make any sense if i was to have a few models with each and just change them out when i need to ?

Well, if you don't mind building extra models, that is generally a good idea. Different weapons are effective against different foes. I mean, who knows, maybe you end up fighting an army composed of gretchin hordes, then those grenade launchers might come in handy!

I tend to prefer Plasma as an all-around choice, for Infantry Squads. I'm not a big believer in drowning anything in lasgun fire, because reliably causing wounds with Lasguns requires insane amounts of models. Even FRF, SRF is not really doing much for a 10 man squad. Figure your Sarge has a bolter, a dude has a special, and 2 guys are tied up in a Heavy, you're getting 6 bonus lasgun shots per squad. Half hit, one wounds, and it's usually saved, so whoopedy do. I'm not saying that Lasguns aren't worth taking... I'm saying they're the bonus wounds that surround your special weapons and Heavies. Anything they do beyond that is gravy.

So if you're facing anything with a 3+ save, or toughness 5 or higher, go for the Plasma. It's always mathematically more useful in those situations, where your Lasgunners are already doing insignificant damage. If you happen to be shooting Orks, Little Nids, "light" Eldar / DE / Harlies, or anything with a t-shirt save, your Lasguns will be doing some actual work, and the GL / PG isn't as significant. But assuming you're not shooting at those, at least the PG is going to be plunking a wound, hopefully, on most turns.

Yes, they overheat. I'd swear mine overheat more than they should, but that's just confirmation bias talking, no actual math is done.

The point is, that I typically take my "Line Squads" with either Bolter, Vox, PG and AC, or Bolter, Vox, PG and LC. Usually AC, for the extra shots vs transports.

Anyhow, Bolter, Vox, PG, and AC is 14% more expensive than B, V, GL and AC. Vs MEQ, the PG squad will inflict an average of 1.94 wounds in a round of firing at MEQ in the open, no orders. The "traditional" GL / AC variant instead inflicts 1.25 wounds. This is a 55% increase of lethality, in one turn. Spread out over a couple turns, you're typically popping an extra dude, which is well worth the investment. And against anything scary like MC's, or vehicles... anything you want "dead" right now, the PG is better.

If I had to choose between filling up the Specials in a Veteran squad, or giving one to an Infantry squad, I'd likely fill the Vets first... but there's not a math-based reason to forgo giving Plasma to anyone that could take it, instead of Plasma. Infantry squads have a large number of buffer wounds, so allow you to play the attrition game... if you can stay out of close combat. Vets can look like: Bolter, 3x Special, Vox, [2] Heavy, 3x Lasguns. There's only 3 chumps before you start losing upgrades. But an Infantry squad has a Bolter, Vox, Special, [2] Heavy, and then 5 chumps.


That said!


If you want to actively lower a unit's threat profile, then giving them GL's still bumps their offensive output / versatility instead of leaving them with Lasguns. You don't want your Command squads shot at? Or expect them to be shot at anyway? Don't give them Plasma, give them something less scary instead. Lower threat profile, lower priority, survive longer to issue orders. Or if you know they're going to be shot at anyhow, GL's give them something cheap to do for a couple turns before they disappear.

PCS with Flamers inside a Chimera is still a workable item. Only because they're massed, mind you. Not for Line Infantry squads. If you're advancing a blob, with the Commander shouting out of a Chimera to run-and-shoot, you'd have a use for flamers. Personal suggestion would be Heavy Flamer, 2x Flamer, Vox [to ensure the orders go through] and I love a bolter for the 1 point upgrade. Easy way to make sure people know who the leader is, and there's always spare bolters lying about.


Also, if you're just starting out, Buy a 3-pack of the Heavy Weapon Teams. You'll probably want to build 3x Autocannons right away. If you're handy with plastic-card, you can build tri-pods for the Lascannons pretty easily. There's probably 3rd party bits out there, as well. Save the kneeling guys to build the Lascannons. You can build the Missile Launcher guys "standing" with legs from the standard Cadian boxes. Same deal with the Mortars... if you're inclined to build them. They can be a fun unit to just hide out of sight and camp an objective, if you can. I suppose you could do the same with Heavy Bolters. I made a Counts-as Harker out of a Heavy Bolter that I cut down to be a more reasonable size. You can use most of the bits in a useful way, though I don't like Missile Launchers or Heavy Bolters. But you're going to want the AC and LC for sure, and it's a reasonable price for the utility. You can make lemonade out of the rest of the parts.

Flamers are nice for special weapon teams piling out of units like Valkyries or Chimeras, since BS doesn't matter. And the survivors have to run through three walls of death to assault.