Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Battlegrinder wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Oh wow.

They didn't even change the name of Sin Eaters, they just updated the idea for the 40k universe instead of the one they're originally from.

You mean, uh, ours? Please don't tell you think white wolf invented them all their own.

I'm pretty sure White Wolf fans think Jesus is something WW created that was copied by Christians.

 Pouncey wrote:
Some fiction writers would've favored the "show, don't tell" approach and simply write out the council meetings in a narrative crafted sufficiently well enough where readers draw their own conclusions about what each candidate was feeling and thinking.

It's a sourcebook not a novel

IIRC the EC considered Psykers an imperfect mutation that ruined their perfection, so activelt rejected psykers in the Legion

Given the mix of Traitor and Loyal Primarchs for either side, I'd say that the CoN wasn't really a big f-ing deal for the Horus Heresy.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Given the mix of Traitor and Loyal Primarchs for either side, I'd say that the CoN wasn't really a big f-ing deal for the Horus Heresy.

well.. keep in mind sabotoge occured at a level ABOVE the primarchs, it wasthe chaos gods doing the manpulating. I don't think any of the traitor primarchs other then maybe Lorgar had decided to turn traitor yet.

what's the timeline of the CoN? how soon before Istavan?

The Council of Nikaea was 4 years prior to the Betrayal at Isstvan III, 3 years before Prospero. Source: Book Two: Massacre, Pg.19.

 Drummernathan wrote:
Love that mortarion was "vehemently against" even though he achieved psychic prowess via disease and the gift of nurgle's rot. =P

feth Mortarion easily the dumbest and most hypocritcal of the primarchs.

godking wrote:

 Drummernathan wrote:
Love that mortarion was "vehemently against" even though he achieved psychic prowess via disease and the gift of nurgle's rot. =P

feth Mortarion easily the dumbest and most hypocritcal of the primarchs.

He's not really hypocritical though.

Telepathica chief: "Avowed Neutrality"

what a coward

 Vector Strike wrote:
Telepathica chief: "Avowed Neutrality"

what a coward

Sounds more like - I have an obvious bias here considering I am a psyker. I don't want to be seen as either seeking to force psykers into the astartes or excluding them (and keeping all control of them) so I will exclude myself from the vote.

 RFHolloway wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Telepathica chief: "Avowed Neutrality"

what a coward

Sounds more like - I have an obvious bias here considering I am a psyker. I don't want to be seen as either seeking to force psykers into the astartes or excluding them (and keeping all control of them) so I will exclude myself from the vote.

another thing to consider is that the Adeptus Telepathica as the "messangers of the Imperium" may have simply followed a policy of neutrality in general so as to ensure people had confidance in the reliability of astropathic communications.

 Abanshee wrote:
Konrad never cared much for psykers and neither did his legion. WTF, FW?

That's what I thought! Since sevatar was a psycher and actively repressed it

Corax sounds like a jerk didn't really have an opinion but favoured Magnus'censure,

 Drummernathan wrote:
Love that mortarion was "vehemently against" even though he achieved psychic prowess via disease and the gift of nurgle's rot. =P

A large part of the reason that Mortarion mostly sulks on his plague world wallowing in self pity and self hatred instead of doing anything (to the point Typhus left him in disgust) is that he hates that Nurgle has given him so much sorcerous power and hates himself for becoming a being made of what is essentially variably solidified magic. Mortarion actively despises his patron Chaos God and has essentially become so consumed by self loathing that he's decided that the only thing to do is nothing. Which of course suits Nurgle fine since stagnation also serves him, but enraged Typhus to the point that he struck off on his own.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
a tango with a Slaaneshi Daemon or twelve

Nice.

 plagueknight wrote:
Corax sounds like a jerk didn't really have an opinion but favoured Magnus'censure,

Hmm that might have been the most reasonable stance. As we can see from the Codex, the problem is not necessarily maintaining a Librarius so much as Magnus's reckless arrogance.

 n0t_u wrote:
Leman Russ: Psykers are an abomination, but Rune Priests are alright cause it's not from the warp!

Yup, one reason I can't stand him and his legion. Biggest bunch of hypocrits there are.

Is there anything to show the SW are actually being hypocrites?

Assuming they are being sincere, they may actually have a very good point. I've argued in the past that the psyker's attitude toward her power is what's important - this is why I think Corax might have had the most reasonable opinion about Nikaea ... the issue was mainly Magnus and his legion and less about psykers generally.

Perhaps the decree applied to all the legions to in some small way salve Magnus's pride.

Manchu wrote:
Is there anything to show the SW are actually being hypocrites?

Assuming they are being sincere, they may actually have a very good point. I've argued in the past that the psyker's attitude toward her power is what's important - this is why I think Corax might have had the most reasonable opinion about Nikaea ... the issue was mainly Magnus and his legion and less about psykers generally.

Perhaps the decree applied to all the legions to in some small way salve Magnus's pride.

the space wolves objected to the librarius and psykers over all, and then claimed rune preists where ok cause they wheren't psykers. that suggests a DANGEROUS ignorance.

Put it like this, imagine yourself in Germany circa 1565. There is a peasant crone living in a village beyond the town walls who claims to heal people with strange concoctions. There is also a respectable artisan down the street who says his medicines will cure certain diseases. From our POV in 2017, these practices - to the extent they worked - are all based on chemistry. But in practice, these arts represent very different traditions. Obviously, it didn't matter that they were trying to accomplish something similar or that in fact they worked, to the extent they worked, because of the same realities. I wouldn't call doctors hypocrites for sneering at witches - or witches hypocrites for sneering at doctors.

Manchu wrote:
Put it like this, imagine yourself in Germany circa 1565. There is a peasant crone living in a village beyond the town walls who claims to heal people with strange concoctions. There is also a respectable artisan down the street who says his medicines will cure certain diseases. From our POV in 2017, these practices - to the extent they worked - are all based on chemistry. But in practice, these arts represent very different traditions. Obviously, it didn't matter that they were trying to accomplish something similar or that in fact they worked, to the extent they worked, because of the same realities. I wouldn't call doctors hypocrites for sneering at witches - or witches hypocrites for sneering at doctors.

except I think it's reasonable to belive RUSS would know otherwise

The Primarchs did not even know about the existence of daemons.

Also doctors know that witches are quacks. And witches know the same about doctors.

BrianDavion wrote:

Manchu wrote:
Is there anything to show the SW are actually being hypocrites?

Assuming they are being sincere, they may actually have a very good point. I've argued in the past that the psyker's attitude toward her power is what's important - this is why I think Corax might have had the most reasonable opinion about Nikaea ... the issue was mainly Magnus and his legion and less about psykers generally.

Perhaps the decree applied to all the legions to in some small way salve Magnus's pride.

the space wolves objected to the librarius and psykers over all, and then claimed rune preists where ok cause they wheren't psykers. that suggests a DANGEROUS ignorance.

Its a dangerous ignorance called religious indoctrination in early childhood. Russ was brought up by wolves and then the first humans he encountered taught him that the local Rune Priest/Shaman drew energy from the spirits of Fenris and could do stuff. He grew up believing that and its hard to let go. If you grew up in a village where the closest thing to a doctor was the local witch doctor, who cured you by boiling certain mushrooms, and then moved to the city. The medically trained doctors say its either BS or just the same as what they do, but you say its different. Its no different to, say, a church saying its a sin to read the Bible yourself, but its okay for their priests because they read it in Latin.

Assume he believed that Rune Priests draw from Fenris, and he simply becomes a misinformed tribal king. Assume that he knows the truth and does it intentionally, and he becomes a hypocrit with an agenda against Magnus. Perspective.

On the other hand, maybe he's right and the Rune Priests do channel Fenrisian Wolf Spirit Power? The Tyranids, for example, draw from the Hive Mind for their power (reflected in the 4-5th ed Codexes where they have unique powers, and in 4th Ed they didn't need a Psychic test for most because they weren't drawing from the Warp). We have Orks with that psychic field shindig, which works because all Orks believe in the exact same things. For example, Red Ones Go Faster, to an Ork, is an undeniable fact, as much as gravity is to us. All Orks believe such, so the combined belief of trillions of beings makes it so. Humans on the other hand are never able to agree on anything, but if the whole planet of Fenris believe that their planet has some special spirit, and their RPs can draw on this, this is reflected in the Warp by granting such Priests the ability to draw on this spirit. On one hand, they are using Warp Power in this way, but they aren't actually Psykers in the way a Librarian is, they simply draw on the spirit that exists because of the warp. ANother example would be an ordinary, mundane Chaos Cultist, who conducts rituals and magicks through a Grimoire or tome. He doesn't have power in himself, but he is lent the power through another medium that gives him abilities that a psyker would.

I love the way the 40k Universe keeps dropping in these reference to old Earth history. For those who weren't aware

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea