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Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Prestor Jon wrote:
What about car stereo thieves at night? Bear in mind you don't know if the thief is a cat person.


I did some research on this once and AFAIK Texas might be the only state that permits you to use lethal force not only to defend property, but to defend someone else's property. That's how far Texas goes.

Frazzled is right not to agree with it, it's much too far. But it's an outlier.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/09 18:30:05


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Ouze wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
What about car stereo thieves at night? Bear in mind you don't know if the thief is a cat person.


I did some research on this once and AFAIK Texas might be the only state that permits you to use lethal force not only to defend property, but to defend someone else's property. That's how far Texas goes.

Frazzled is right not to agree with it, it's much too far. But it's an outlier.



I wonder whether there have been any cases of someone shooting their neighbour by mistaking them for somebody trying to steal their neighbours car?

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Not that I am aware of.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 Ouze wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
What about car stereo thieves at night? Bear in mind you don't know if the thief is a cat person.


I did some research on this once and AFAIK Texas might be the only state that permits you to use lethal force not only to defend property, but to defend someone else's property. That's how far Texas goes.

Frazzled is right not to agree with it, it's much too far. But it's an outlier.



Yeah I'm pretty sure Texas is alone in that regard and I agree that lethal force isn't warranted for the prevention of property crimes and shouldn't be given legal protection. IIRC, those laws were a product of the over reaction to the controversy over the Joe Horn shooting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Yea I heard the recordings, what a D bag.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ephrata, PA

Near me, and I'll try to find a link, a homeowner caught a guy in his house, and the burglar ran from him down the hallway, towards his kids room. Homeowner dropped him in the hallway with 2 to the back, and it was considered self defense by the police. On one hand, I completely agree with this decision, because the bad guy could have taken the kid hostage, or worse if he got desperate. Someone got too close to my kid's rooms while breaking in, I'd slot the guy and sleep like a kitten about it. Logically though, the guy's back was turned, and he was trying to flee. He didn't know it was a kids bedroom at the end of the hall. Food for thought.

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3100+

 feeder wrote:
Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.

 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





Tornado Alley

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
Near me, and I'll try to find a link, a homeowner caught a guy in his house, and the burglar ran from him down the hallway, towards his kids room. Homeowner dropped him in the hallway with 2 to the back, and it was considered self defense by the police. On one hand, I completely agree with this decision, because the bad guy could have taken the kid hostage, or worse if he got desperate. Someone got too close to my kid's rooms while breaking in, I'd slot the guy and sleep like a kitten about it. Logically though, the guy's back was turned, and he was trying to flee. He didn't know it was a kids bedroom at the end of the hall. Food for thought.


In this case its a simple decision, be tried by 12, or have your kids carried by 6. In this case one who is vehemently against violence could easily argue it was the wrong decision, where those who would want to defend their family through lethal means would applaud. I for one don't think I would have waited for him to turn his back just to be sure, but thats just me. You don't come up stairs while we are home and expect to be allowed to continue to breed.

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Made in us
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Why would a burglar take a child hostage? That would just make things worse for them for no reason. The best thing they can do is attempt to escape. Taking a hostage makes absolutely no sense.
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why would a burglar take a child hostage? That would just make things worse for them for no reason. The best thing they can do is attempt to escape. Taking a hostage makes absolutely no sense.
people breaking and entering arent usually the brightest crayons in the box to begin with, be they just stupid, suffering from mental problems, or other such things, and even intelligent and wise people do absolutely stupid and insane things under stress and panic all the time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/10 06:30:39


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why would a burglar take a child hostage? That would just make things worse for them for no reason. The best thing they can do is attempt to escape. Taking a hostage makes absolutely no sense.


There's instances where people break into a house specifically to target the children. Kidnappings, rapes and murders have all happened to kids by intruders while the parents were home or sleeping. If there's somebody in your house and you have kids and family to protect you do it without question, not ask them to sit down over tea while they make small talk and tell you all about why they are in your house.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

There's also cases where children shoot themselves, each other or their parents with guns.

Looking at it from the epidemiological angle, the first question is which type of event causes more woundings/deaths per 100,000 per year. The second question would be, if it turned out there are more accidental shootings by family members than by breakers-in, would suppression of guns -- such as requiring them to be locked in safes -- lead to a greater amount of harm to chlldren from targetted break-ins than the reduction from not leaving the guns lying around.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why would a burglar take a child hostage? That would just make things worse for them for no reason. The best thing they can do is attempt to escape. Taking a hostage makes absolutely no sense.


Are you serious? Grab the kid and you've subdued to the whole family and can do what you want.

You say burglar, it could be a burglar. It could a home invader. It could be a stalker. It could be this generation's Ted Bundy.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

I've got to agree with Frazz et. al. on this one. Sure, the burglar didn't know that he was heading towards a kid, but what if he realized? His mere presence in someone's home already means that he's ignoring laws.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





Tornado Alley

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why would a burglar take a child hostage? That would just make things worse for them for no reason. The best thing they can do is attempt to escape. Taking a hostage makes absolutely no sense.


To add on to what everyone else said, that is a naive and extremely dangerous thought process. No one breaks in to your home to give you stuff, they are trying to take your stuff, or hurt you. Its not like you won the lottery and at 0200 they decided to come hand you your prize.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

Grabbing a kid as a way of escaping isn't out of the question either.

"Don't come near me, I'll hurt your kid! I'm going to go out the door and you had better not stop me or call the cops!"

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

How many cases have there been in the past 10 years of burglars kidnapping children in order to flee the scene of the crime?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Dreadwinter wrote:
Why would a burglar take a child hostage? That would just make things worse for them for no reason. The best thing they can do is attempt to escape. Taking a hostage makes absolutely no sense.

It's no ones responsibility to consider the intent or nonsensical nature of any individual breaking into their house. Most people would rather not shoot someone in their house - esp if it looks like they are just trying to get away. Understanding that this can be a life or death situation I always will side with a homeowner in this situation regardless of the intruders intent or apparent intent. It's also not a situation that people are really prepared for - being awoken in the middle of the night and scared to death. How rational can you expect anyone to be in that situation?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 Kilkrazy wrote:
How many cases have there been in the past 10 years of burglars kidnapping children in order to flee the scene of the crime?




Who gives a gak? Some dude who does not belong in your house makes a break for your kid's room, would knowing the statistics change your actions?

It would not change mine.


Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

It is interesting that you don't give a gak about a criminal behaviour issue that apparently concerns you deeply.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





Tornado Alley

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is interesting that you don't give a gak about a criminal behaviour issue that apparently concerns you deeply.


I don't think that was the point. His question was valid. Would knowing the statistics in the aformentioned scenario change your actions? Would you risk it?

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is interesting that you don't give a gak about a criminal behaviour issue that apparently concerns you deeply.


It is interesting that your passive aggressive attacks on those who advocate for 2nd amendment rights is okay for a Mod to engage in.

I encourage you to read what I actually typed. I asked if knowing the stats changes your actions WHILE an incident is going on, and stated that it would not change mine.

In no way does that mean I don't care about criminal behavior issues in the macro. It does mean that regardless of the 1 in a zillion odds you may place on the intruder in my house perhaps harming my child, I'm not taking the chance. Legally I am not obliged to, and morally I have a duty to protect my kid.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/10 13:26:55


Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Kilkrazy wrote:
How many cases have there been in the past 10 years of burglars kidnapping children in order to flee the scene of the crime?


That assumes it was a burglar. Do they not have home invasions there? They do here. God help your family if they win.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






My first thought upon seeing a stranger in my home and heading for my kids' room is definitely to research crime statistics to see how likely it is that he will do something to my kids....

Bloody hell, some of the nonsense here is incredible. People are entirely happy to let home invaders do what they want in their house because "statistically" they are unlikely to hurt them or their kids? Amazing...

"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 redleger wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is interesting that you don't give a gak about a criminal behaviour issue that apparently concerns you deeply.


I don't think that was the point. His question was valid. Would knowing the statistics in the aformentioned scenario change your actions? Would you risk it?


The chance of a burglar trying to kidnap my daughter is vanishingly small. As such, it's impossible to realistically imagine the situation and my possible reactions to it.

If such events are common in the USA, then I can see why people would be highly concerned about it. Hence my question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We were talking about burglars, which actually are fairly common in the UK, though more common in Spain for some reason.

How many home invasions are there per year in the USA?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/10 13:47:32


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ephrata, PA

US dept. of Justice wrote:

An estimated 3.7 million household burglaries occurred each
year on average from 2003 to 2007. In about 28% of these
burglaries, a household member was present during the burglary.
In 7% of all household burglaries, a household member
experienced some form of violent victimization (figure 1).

These estimates of burglary are based on a revised definition
of burglary from the standard classification in the National
Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). Historically, burglary is
classified as a property crime except when someone is home
during the burglary and a household member is attacked or
threatened. When someone is home during a burglary and
experiences violence, NCVS classification rules categorize the
victimization as a personal (rape/sexual assault, robbery, and
aggravated and simple assault) rather than a property crime
(household burglary, theft, and motor vehicle theft). In this
report, the definition of household burglary includes
burglaries in which a household member was a victim of a
violent crime (see Methodology).




https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt

Bane's P&M Blog, pop in and leave a comment
3100+

 feeder wrote:
Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 Kilkrazy wrote:
 redleger wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is interesting that you don't give a gak about a criminal behaviour issue that apparently concerns you deeply.


I don't think that was the point. His question was valid. Would knowing the statistics in the aformentioned scenario change your actions? Would you risk it?


The chance of a burglar trying to kidnap my daughter is vanishingly small. As such, it's impossible to realistically imagine the situation and my possible reactions to it.

If such events are common in the USA, then I can see why people would be highly concerned about it. Hence my question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We were talking about burglars, which actually are fairly common in the UK, though more common in Spain for some reason.

How many home invasions are there per year in the USA?


The person actively committing a violent crime will never get the benefit of the doubt from me. I already know an intruder has ill intent because that person already broke into my home an act that already satisfied the reasonableness justification for me to perceive an imminent threat of bodily harm.

An estimated 3.7 million household burglaries occurred each year on average from 2003 to 2007. In about 28% of these burglaries, a household member was present during the burglary. In 7% of all household burglaries, a household member experienced some form of violent victimization
.
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf
A household member was present in roughly 1 million burglaries and became victims of violent crimes in 266,560 burglaries.
Simple assault (15% or 155,400) was the most common form of violence when a resident was home and violence occurred.
Robbery (7% 72,520) and rape (3% 31,080) were less likely to occur when a household member was present and violence occurred.
Offenders were known to their victims in 65% or 2,405,000 of violent burglaries; offenders were strangers in 28%.
Overall, 61% of offenders were unarmed when violence occurred during a burglary while a resident was present. About 12% 8,702 of all households violently burglarized while someone was home faced an offender armed with a firearm.
Serious injury accounted for 9% or 6, 527 people and minor injury accounted for 36% of injuries sustained by household members who were home and experienced violence during a completed burglary

According to the FBI's Expanded Homicide Data for 2015 there were 565 murders during the course of a robbery, 77 murders during the course of a burglary and 21 murders during the commission of larceny theft. Table 10 doesn't specify home invasions from those categories.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_10_murder_circumstances_by_relationship_2014.xls


Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

 Kilkrazy wrote:
 redleger wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is interesting that you don't give a gak about a criminal behaviour issue that apparently concerns you deeply.


I don't think that was the point. His question was valid. Would knowing the statistics in the aformentioned scenario change your actions? Would you risk it?


The chance of a burglar trying to kidnap my daughter is vanishingly small. As such, it's impossible to realistically imagine the situation and my possible reactions to it.

If such events are common in the USA, then I can see why people would be highly concerned about it. Hence my question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We were talking about burglars, which actually are fairly common in the UK, though more common in Spain for some reason.

How many home invasions are there per year in the USA?



It's hard to say. There were a string of them in San Francisco, back when we lived in San Francisco, and the perpetrators indeed went after the daughters. There are enough high profile invasions reported in the news that end with maiming, crippling or death that the extremely negative outcomes overpower the low numerical risk in most people's minds, like lottery tickets if the prize was watching your family die horribly and your odds of winning were a lot higher than the actual lottery.

   
Made in us
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Frazzled wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
How many cases have there been in the past 10 years of burglars kidnapping children in order to flee the scene of the crime?


That assumes it was a burglar. Do they not have home invasions there? They do here. God help your family if they win.

So... do burglar's where name tag that says "hi, I'm just a burglar", or "hey there, I'm a pedo, point me to your kids room"???

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Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

Burglars say "Robble robble." It's one of the Burglar Guild's oldest traditions.

   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 stanman wrote:
There's instances where people break into a house specifically to target the children. Kidnappings, rapes and murders have all happened to kids by intruders while the parents were home or sleeping.

Sure. “Hey, I'll break into a random house so that I can murder a child”. Makes sense.

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