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 Jidmah wrote:
An old piece of MtG wisdom says that the more parts your combo has, the less likely it is to succeed.

A plague marine unit with melee weapons and a third of those buffs will do just as well.

So will a Poxwalkers unit.

 lare2 wrote:
With War of the Spider and what we know of 9th, anyone had any thoughts of Morty?

I forget what it's called but can we spend a CP to put him into reserve? He can then come down on an edge, 9" away from the enemy... if I remember it correctly.

The pros: 9" away turn 2 without need of Warptime and not on the table to be blasted off turn 1. The cons: I never make a 9" charge, which means he'll be blasted off the board turn 2, whereas (if he survives turn 1) Warptime all but guarantees he'll be in combat turn 2.

Suppose we don't know enough yet really. He won't benefit from the new LoS rules, having too many wounds. Undoubtedly his points will be rising as well. Just hope he becomes playable again. The beginning of 8th was a riot with him.

The only thing that charged for Mortarion is that he can throw his grenades at someone locked in combat with him, unless the become blast weapons...
In return, souping is more difficult, Mortarion doesn't benefit from obscuring terrain and you need to pay CP to bring a super-heavy or supreme command detachment.

War of the spider has two stratagems that make him more deadly in melee, if you ever feel like he needs that.

The reserve stratagem is still an unconfirmed rumor. We only know for sure that there is some way to deep strike reserves into your own deployment zone without limitation, but that doesn't help.

Many play testers insist that melee units will have less trouble in getting into combat, but that doesn't change that Mortarion.

So it doesn't look too good for the big guy.


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broxus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
An old piece of MtG wisdom says that the more parts your combo has, the less likely it is to succeed.

A plague marine unit with melee weapons and a third of those buffs will do just as well.

So will a Poxwalkers unit.

They don't have plague weapons though, and using the wormspitter for pox walkers seems like a clutch.

Yep the Wormspitter and Poxwalkers with all those fancy psychic abilities and stratagems makes even 10 of them deadly in combat.

Why would you use a wormspitter (which means a chaos lord or sorcerer) with poxwalkers instead of ten plague marines?

 Jidmah wrote:
Why would you use a wormspitter (which means a chaos lord or sorcerer) with poxwalkers instead of ten plague marines?

Easy they cost far less and I can have more units of them for board control. Why people are talking about taking massive unit of PM I have no idea. It will likely cost 25% of your points for 20 PM in 9th and can be easily countered. Give me cheap and fearless units everywhere that can’t be ignored since they can almost one shot anything any day.

Except pox walkers are even slower, only a threat in melee and the new rules don´t seem to be kind on large blobs of anything. You make a valid point about points, but if they use this opportunity as a general balance pass, PM might actually be relatively unaffected while poxwalkers are probably in for the cultist treatment.

 Castozor wrote:
Except pox walkers are even slower, only a threat in melee and the new rules don´t seem to be kind on large blobs of anything. You make a valid point about points, but if they use this opportunity as a general balance pass, PM might actually be relatively unaffected while poxwalkers are probably in for the cultist treatment.

I am scared to death that after they spent years cutting points on Death Guard to make them viable, and they finally got their first new rules in 3 years, all their points are going to go up too much and make them terrible again without ever getting a chance to shine with the new supplement rules. And I am especially worried about less points in 9th Ed. given that DG are very reliant on synergies with multiple characters and now also units that use CP to make other units better.

My prediction: points will go to about what they were at the beginning of 8th. Check your hard copy codex for what they'll likely be like.

It may be cynical of me but I'm thinking points are only going up to make it cheaper for new players to buy in. Once a new bunch of players are hooked, points will drop again to force them to buy more.

 lare2 wrote:
My prediction: points will go to about what they were at the beginning of 8th. Check your hard copy codex for what they'll likely be like.

It may be cynical of me but I'm thinking points are only going up to make it cheaper for new players to buy in. Once a new bunch of players are hooked, points will drop again to force them to buy more.

That would be an absolute disaster since DG were incredibly overpriced at the start of the edition and have had 3-4 rounds of points cuts since index and many of those units STILL don't get used. They were dropped down pretty hard relative to other armies. Any increase would need to be based off the most recent points and just going up a certain amount, not resetting to index or even codex.

 Virules wrote:
I am scared to death that after they spent years cutting points on Death Guard to make them viable, and they finally got their first new rules in 3 years, all their points are going to go up too much and make them terrible again without ever getting a chance to shine with the new supplement rules. And I am especially worried about less points in 9th Ed. given that DG are very reliant on synergies with multiple characters and now also units that use CP to make other units better.

I´ll be honest that´s what I´m afraid of as well. Oh PM´s kinda sucked all edition but we gave them some great strats now (nvm that they are still as durable as a wet paper bag) so that makes it okay to price them just under Intercessors like they used too. But I'm hoping that won't happen, this PA was obviously not perfect but it seems GW is somewhat aware of what plagues (heh) our army and took steps to fix it. Raising our points trough the roof again will undo all that effort. I'm ready to write off poxwalkers already though, I like using them but I think there is no way they won't go up 2 points like cultist do. The 2 units are too similar in price and battlefield role to escape that particularly jarring price increase.

broxus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Why would you use a wormspitter (which means a chaos lord or sorcerer) with poxwalkers instead of ten plague marines?

Easy they cost far less and I can have more units of them for board control. Why people are talking about taking massive unit of PM I have no idea. It will likely cost 25% of your points for 20 PM in 9th and can be easily countered. Give me cheap and fearless units everywhere that can’t be ignored since they can almost one shot anything any day.

The guy holding the relic costs at least 74 points and losing him breaks the entire combo and 14" means that you don't actually have those one-shotting units "everywhere", even if you invest another 20 points into a jump-pack.
10 plague marines hit just as hard, but already come with plague weapons stock, are faster and can have two flails. At 190 they match the 194 for the poxwalker unit quite well, and they don't require a relic.

A single unit of 20 plague marines can easily be protected by the could of flies stratagem, and 9th doesn't really change anything about that, except giving your vastly more CP that you had previously.

I agree you can use 20PM to do all this. I just don’t think it will be competitive. If you don’t get first turn and the ability to put cloud of flies on them, then good luck. I already tried it last week against IG and they all died turn 1. That was with having a 4+++ and rerolling DR rolls of 1 & 2 and being in cover. I’ll keep it cheap and make it a threat with my Poxwalkers and if I lose them not biggy the enemy wastes lots of shots. However, all this depends on the 9th edition points so who knows what is viable. Maybe it is PMs.

I fail to see why you keep mentioning 20 plague marines.

10 plague marines can do everything 20 pox walkers can do without wasting a relic and taking less damage from blasts.

 lare2 wrote:
With War of the Spider and what we know of 9th, anyone had any thoughts of Morty?

I forget what it's called but can we spend a CP to put him into reserve? He can then come down on an edge, 9" away from the enemy... if I remember it correctly.

The pros: 9" away turn 2 without need of Warptime and not on the table to be blasted off turn 1. The cons: I never make a 9" charge, which means he'll be blasted off the board turn 2, whereas (if he survives turn 1) Warptime all but guarantees he'll be in combat turn 2.

Suppose we don't know enough yet really. He won't benefit from the new LoS rules, having too many wounds. Undoubtedly his points will be rising as well. Just hope he becomes playable again. The beginning of 8th was a riot with him.

based on what we know now demons primarchs remain unplayable, in competitive point of view.

3 CP to hide Morty in tactical reserve.


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Can bring him down in enemy deployment zone turn 3.

 lare2 wrote:
3 CP to hide Morty in tactical reserve.


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Can bring him down in enemy deployment zone turn 3.

Unless they are crazy backlining, I reckon turn 2 works just fine. You could also have a unit of Deathshroud teleporting in with him, in case he fluffs his charge

That actually seems decent enough, though he can't move after appearing.

 Jidmah wrote:
I fail to see why you keep mentioning 20 plague marines.

10 plague marines can do everything 20 pox walkers can do without wasting a relic and taking less damage from blasts.

I would argue 10 Poxwalkers cans do almost anything 10 PM can do at 1/4 the points. Now if they buff PMs or nerf Poxwalkers I may change my mind. Even a better argument is why go with 10PM when you could get 5 Blightlords for the same cost. We will see in 9th after the points drop.

 Jidmah wrote:
That actually seems decent enough, though he can't move after appearing.

He can charge, right? He can’t move and advance?

 avedominusnox wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
That actually seems decent enough, though he can't move after appearing.

He can charge, right? He can’t move and advance?

He's allowed to charge but 9" charging is a big ask.

 lare2 wrote:

 avedominusnox wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
That actually seems decent enough, though he can't move after appearing.

He can charge, right? He can’t move and advance?

He's allowed to charge but 9" charging is a big ask.

Agreed, that's why I think he should have Deathshroud Terms with him. Even if it's 3rd turn it's still 9" charge.
Him + bodyguard is not easy to take out in a turn

I also think it would be important to be running either a rhino rush or DP+ multiple Blight Drones to pressure or to have something else to hit if all shooting goes on Morty.

Doohicky wrote:

 lare2 wrote:

 avedominusnox wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
That actually seems decent enough, though he can't move after appearing.

He can charge, right? He can’t move and advance?

He's allowed to charge but 9" charging is a big ask.

Agreed, that's why I think he should have Deathshroud Terms with him. Even if it's 3rd turn it's still 9" charge.
Him + bodyguard is not easy to take out in a turn

I also think it would be important to be running either a rhino rush or DP+ multiple Blight Drones to pressure or to have something else to hit if all shooting goes on Morty.

Yes totally agree. Still have to see how warptime will work. Not sure if it will at all..
Better 9” charge than blown to pieces inside deployment.. as it seems Morty will be 3cp and 6pl for other to fill..

Doohicky wrote:
Him + bodyguard is not easy to take out in a turn

I also think it would be important to be running either a rhino rush or DP+ multiple Blight Drones to pressure or to have something else to hit if all shooting goes on Morty.

I'm kind of worried about holding out for three turns with that many points off the table.

But then again, they need to chew through our 4++ daemon engines first.

One thing I'm pretty excited about is giving defilers DR - with regeneration and being able to move and shoot without penalty I think they finally might be worth their points.

I think Morty coming off the edge is an interesting problem. When would that make sense and when would that be the win condition?

If you’re running mono Death Guard, what type of list is going to make the most of those previous two turns so Morty can come down and wreck some face? As already mentioned, he is just going to be stuck making a 9inch charge, with command rerolls works about half the time. We don’t have a way to shorten that length or improve our odds of making it except for that command reroll. Hanging any plan on a 50/50 on turn 3 isn’t going to win very often AND will make you just feel bad half of the time as it doesn’t work.

Additionally, what type of list supports this plan? Your other 1500ish (or 1300 if you invest in Deathshroud!) points are going toe to toe with their roughly 2000 pt army (or whatever isn’t in reserves). What are you trying to accomplish? Make space for Morty? Not die? Pound down their heavy weapons so they can’t kill Morty when he arrives? The issue is is that DG don’t have the tools to be a long range army. I know that the new PBC Strat helps vs tanks and such but even with, I don’t think it’s enough.

Running Blightlords that deep strike where you need them without spending command points and being able to shoot AND try that 50/50 charge for less points is such a better idea. Plus there are all sorts of new strats that can improve them in survival and damage output.

As much as I want Mortarian to be better in this coming edition in pure Death Guard, I’m not hopeful based on the new leaked rules and PA book. He’s still dependent on being warp timed as a missile or being a 470pt distraction carnifex.

Why is everyone persisting with turn 3 here?

Turn 2 is just as viable unless the opposition have done some serious back camping. Remember that the deployment zones will be smaller in 9th (Normally)

The thing to remember too is that you don't have to put him into reserve until deployment (Or before battle starts etc)
It's just a tool that gives you an option.

Personally I am looking for fun and new ways to play him I don't do tourneys. It's more than likely not a tourney level idea, but I think it is certainly another option for me.

I hear that.

Don’t let me rain on the parade, I’m just of the mindset this early that all we’ve heard so far, using reserves for Morty doesn’t seem to accomplish more for him or you than the current available uses.

I’m all for using what you want and how you want to use it.

Another idea: using multiple units of Deathshroud with new PA buffs and blighthaulers to mitigate damage to Morty to the point where shooting at him is borderline pointless. Buffing just with either Futility made flesh or the new buffed plague surgeon, in cover from the Blighthauler, moving shots to Morty to a t5 +1/+4/5++ either reducing damage by 1 or rerolling resilience on 1s and 2s seems just Iron Hands level of toughness or shield drone level. Morty can start next to three Deathshroud, deep strike in another 3 when he moves up, seems like it could be a really fun way to play him.

Never mind, misread your post.

 Brymm wrote:
I hear that.

Don’t let me rain on the parade, I’m just of the mindset this early that all we’ve heard so far, using reserves for Morty doesn’t seem to accomplish more for him or you than the current available uses.

I’m all for using what you want and how you want to use it.

Another idea: using multiple units of Deathshroud with new PA buffs and blighthaulers to mitigate damage to Morty to the point where shooting at him is borderline pointless. Buffing just with either Futility made flesh or the new buffed plague surgeon, in cover from the Blighthauler, moving shots to Morty to a t5 +1/+4/5++ either reducing damage by 1 or rerolling resilience on 1s and 2s seems just Iron Hands level of toughness or shield drone level. Morty can start next to three Deathshroud, deep strike in another 3 when he moves up, seems like it could be a really fun way to play him.

Hahah, funny you should say that.
As I said I don't play tourneys, but my gaming group all decided we would travel to the Warhammer Throne of Skulls doubles tournament in 2021 for some fun. My 900 pts was Morty, 2 x 3 Deathshroud and a Fould Blightspawn and a plaguecaster.
That was my exact plan. My doubles partner was Slaneesh CSM and would be the firepower, while I was the bullet

I had all models painted and ready to go
I have no idea if it is even doable for the points in 9th now :(

Note that the reduce damage by 1 only works for your termies if they are declared as the target of an attack. I´m not sure if it works when the attacks are transferred to them because of their bodyguard rule.

 avedominusnox wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
That actually seems decent enough, though he can't move after appearing.

He can charge, right? He can’t move and advance?

Fun fact - as a Nurgle Daemon, if he’s within 7” of a Gnarlmaw at the start of his next turn, he can move, advance, shoot, and charge

(Even if he starts the turn in close combat with something!)

Tricky to stage-manage, but. Especially since you can’t summon a FGM (without Horticulous), and we don’t know what detachments are going to be like.