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SilverAlien wrote:

nfe wrote:

 XT-1984 wrote:

And if a unit is dead its damage and threat is nothing (after it explodes of course).

True, but I in a combined c.9 turns of shooting, I think I've had a PBC cause one wound on a Repulsor and one wound on a marine. I've obviously been unlucky with the rolls but they really don't have the number of shots to make up for the ballistic skill.

Predators might be the answer for me (handy that I much prefer the model to the PBC [on the basis of photographs, anyway]).

Are you using the entropy cannons? They add a lot more firepower than just the main gun.

The problem with the Entropy Canons is they cannot indirect fire like the main gun.
So if you stay behind scenery firing the mortar you probably wont be able to use them.
Alternatively if you are driving the tank round to get a decent shot with all weapons you have to deal with hitting on a 5+

The only way I can see to use it optimally is smack bang in the open, staying still and taking shots at whatever is in range.
Or use the Blasphemous Machines stratagem.

I feel that Crawlers are big bullet magnets anyway. Given their resilience, I would be happiest if the heavy support of my opponent was targeting them over anything else. So, let them be out in the open, attracting fire. If you want to target something that is T8, has 3+, 5++ plus DR on top of that. Be my guest! lol

This is also why I am not sure about shooty hellbrutes in a DG army. It of course depends on the list. But if I had say 3 shooty hellbrutes, and I also had a Crawler or two. A smart opponent would shoot my hellbrutes first. They are fragile and have no invul, no DR, and are only 8 wound T7. He could probably kill off 3 hellbrutes with the same amount of firepower used to kill off just one crawler (or maybe one and a half crawlers). Its a no brainer which one he would go for first. (Unless you manage to somehow convince him to shoot your crawler over your hellbrutes).

Yeah I think you may be right on the hellbrutes. They just arent tough enough.

I'm still not convinced of the efficacy of the Crawlers compared to a Predator.

I wonder if the plague crawlers are tall enough in order for hellbrutes to hide behind them (I have 2 of the old FW DG dreads)

 dan2026 wrote:
Yeah I think you may be right on the hellbrutes. They just arent tough enough.

I'm still not convinced of the efficacy of the Crawlers compared to a Predator.

They are not the most efficient for shooting. It isn't what Deathguard is known for. Their 4+ BS alone makes them inefficient already. Even if you have a a lord or a prince nearby to give them rerolls on a 1, their hit rate is still going to be only slightly better than 50%. Whereas, true shooty lists like Azreal with squads of devastators can achieve easily 90% hit rate. And gulliman lists add reroll to wound on top of that. A crawler's weapons are not considered plague weapons, so they don't get the reroll to wound from arch contaminator.

 dan2026 wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

nfe wrote:

 XT-1984 wrote:

And if a unit is dead its damage and threat is nothing (after it explodes of course).

True, but I in a combined c.9 turns of shooting, I think I've had a PBC cause one wound on a Repulsor and one wound on a marine. I've obviously been unlucky with the rolls but they really don't have the number of shots to make up for the ballistic skill.

Predators might be the answer for me (handy that I much prefer the model to the PBC [on the basis of photographs, anyway]).

Are you using the entropy cannons? They add a lot more firepower than just the main gun.

The problem with the Entropy Canons is they cannot indirect fire like the main gun.
So if you stay behind scenery firing the mortar you probably wont be able to use them.
Alternatively if you are driving the tank round to get a decent shot with all weapons you have to deal with hitting on a 5+

The only way I can see to use it optimally is smack bang in the open, staying still and taking shots at whatever is in range.
Or use the Blasphemous Machines stratagem.

What I think isn’t obvious about the Crawler is that the advantage of the mortar isn’t that you can hide from your enemies, the advantage is they can’t hide from you. The thing is likely the most durable tank in the game, it’s at the very least in the running. I think it should be deployed toward the middle and front of your deployment zone to maximize its range and targetting ability.

SilverAlien wrote:

nfe wrote:

 XT-1984 wrote:

And if a unit is dead its damage and threat is nothing (after it explodes of course).

True, but I in a combined c.9 turns of shooting, I think I've had a PBC cause one wound on a Repulsor and one wound on a marine. I've obviously been unlucky with the rolls but they really don't have the number of shots to make up for the ballistic skill.

Predators might be the answer for me (handy that I much prefer the model to the PBC [on the basis of photographs, anyway]).

Are you using the entropy cannons? They add a lot more firepower than just the main gun.

Always. They caused that single Repulsor wound.

SilverAlien wrote:

Milkshaker wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Predators are, without a doubt, better anti tank for their points than plagueburst crawlers.

On what math is this based? for instance (please correct me if I'm wrong, my math isn't always that great):

This changes however, when targetting toughness 8. In that case, the predator wins out. Against toughness 7 though, the PBC seems more efficient points-wise to me (and I believe that I see more T7 or less than T8 or more).

Basically it was just a ballpark estimate looking a few different scenarios. I also included a chaos lord (with arch contaminator for the crawlers) which shifts it as well.

In short, toughness 7 sv 3+ no invulnerable is the best possible situation for the crawler compared to the predator. If it's facing an enemy with a 5+ invulnerable or a 4+ save, the extra AP from the entropy cannons is lost. If it's facing toughness 8, it takes a big hit on both guns. If there is a negative BS modifier, it hurts the crawler more. So it does, in part, depend on what you are facing, but the predator outperforms the crawler in damage per point in the widest variety of situations.

Well, a chaos lord with arch-contaminator changes things around again:
A PBC does 4,0023 damage on a land raider ( pred does 4,84) which makes the effectiveness per point spent for the pred 0,0255 and for the PBC 0,0257. against an imperial knight the pred will do 6,05 damage and the PBC 5,128. this makes the effectiveness per point spent for the pred 0,0318 and the PBC 0,0330.

Keep in mind, the effectiveness per points spent doesn't take the cost of the lord into account, and the PBC benefits more from him for sure (reroll ones and arch-contaminator)

Negative BS mods will have a larger impact on the PBC for sure, though.

If you're having a chaos lord with arch-contaminator anyway, the PBC seems like a better idea to me. Otherwise, if facing a lot of T8, the pred's offensive output is much better.

Wait, is the mortar considered a plague weapon? Are any of the weapons of the PBC considered plague weapons?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Wait, is the mortar considered a plague weapon? Are any of the weapons of the PBC considered plague weapons?

Only the mortar

The mortar looks good initially, until you realise that on a BS4+ and with d6 shots. That will average only 1 to 2 hits from each mortar per round.

Milkshaker wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Wait, is the mortar considered a plague weapon? Are any of the weapons of the PBC considered plague weapons?

Only the mortar

Plus the Plaguespitters if you take them.

I thing the best solution to sub par crawler damage is just take more of them

Serious, on paper they are crazy good. Point for point one of the most resilient units in the game and if you have an arch-contaminator in range there shooting is comparable (point for point) to a quad las-predator.

Can you get unluckly with them, sure. But don't forget they are under 160 points with Entropy cannons and have the option of shooting indirectly.

Compared to Forge-fiends they are amazing. Lower cost, +1 T, DR and arguably better firepower.

Them and fetid bloat drones are making me serious consider 'death guarding' my WIP demon engine list.

Their main selling point is their super good resilience. maybe someone should just try a parking lot style list spamming plague crawlers bubble wrapped with cheap infantry and see if it can outshoot a shooty Gulliman list.

Maybe its hit rate may not be as good as a Gulliman shooty list, but maybe it will make up for that by its resilience as it keeps on pumping out those shots turn after turn after turn because the things are just so darn hard to kill. lol

kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:
I thing the best solution to sub par crawler damage is just take more of them

Serious, on paper they are crazy good. Point for point one of the most resilient units in the game and if you have an arch-contaminator in range there shooting is comparable (point for point) to a quad las-predator.

Can you get unluckly with them, sure. But don't forget they are under 160 points with Entropy cannons and have the option of shooting indirectly.

If you embrace the indirect shooting their robustness under fire becomes irrelevant - at which point you're paying 150 points for D6 BS4+ shots a turn.

I think people are focusing on indirect fire the wrong way. I think the main use of it will be to shoot over interviening models not to hide behind cover. For instance the tau fish of fury tactic where you screen your soft fire warriors behind a devil fish. Now you can still shoot them. Or if your opponent has infilitraters hiding in ruins or behing a wall ready for a turn 1 charge just shoot them out of the cover.

To be fair. Hiding in ruins doesn't mean it can't be seen and hence shot at. Most ruins have a lot of windows and openings through which its almost impossible to hide something as big as a plague crawler.

darthryan wrote:
I think people are focusing on indirect fire the wrong way. I think the main use of it will be to shoot over interviening models not to hide behind cover. For instance the tau fish of fury tactic where you screen your soft fire warriors behind a devil fish. Now you can still shoot them.

Well, on the average turn, you can succesfully shoot one of them. Then miss another two targets 2/3 times with your entropy cannons. Or autohit with your plaguespitters but then your PBC should probably be a drone.

darthryan wrote:
I think people are focusing on indirect fire the wrong way. I think the main use of it will be to shoot over interviening models not to hide behind cover. For instance the tau fish of fury tactic where you screen your soft fire warriors behind a devil fish. Now you can still shoot them. Or if your opponent has infilitraters hiding in ruins or behing a wall ready for a turn 1 charge just shoot them out of the cover.

Does that even work in 8th edition?

Not sure if it works now but was just the first example of an old problem i have faced. To be fair NFEhas it right just take drones instead they are so much better

darthryan wrote:
Not sure if it works now but was just the first example of an old problem i have faced. To be fair NFEhas it right just take drones instead they are so much better

Theyre the bee's knees, for sure.

So, anyone care to bet if the plastic Plague Marine kit will come with enough options to give two Flails of Corruption/Great Plague Cleavers, or if it will be a typical GW "build for variety" kit that forces you to mix and match unless you want to buy multiple boxes? I mean, for myself I don't care if I have to have 1 flail and 1 cleaver in a squad, but it will be pretty frustrating.

Wayniac wrote:
So, anyone care to bet if the plastic Plague Marine kit will come with enough options to give two Flails of Corruption/Great Plague Cleavers, or if it will be a typical GW "build for variety" kit that forces you to mix and match unless you want to buy multiple boxes? I mean, for myself I don't care if I have to have 1 flail and 1 cleaver in a squad, but it will be pretty frustrating.

My bet is that they will come with 1 of each option, just like how terminators are dicked over. Part of me wants to say, "But the grey hunters kit has EVERYTHING". I know that box is for, GH, BC, WG and every infantry option SW can take. I really doubt we will get that lucky with the kit.
On the bright side, if the kits are monopose, it should be easier to magnetize.

I mean as I said, I don't mind. I build for variety anyways, without a huge care for "most optimal" beyond some thought. But I know a lot of people hate it as they only want to take multiples of the same "best" thing.

Well taking multiple of the “best things” realistically in this case just means optimizing a squad for camping or CC etc, rather than having diseased T5 tac marine jack-of-some-trades average-to-bad-at-all squad. I expect options to be limited requiring multiple boxes but here’s hoping. I can’t believe poxwalkers and marines are taking so long in the first place; all the EZ build kits do in my eyes is push people toward more dark imperium boxes, which is basically giving away free rulebooks, etc.

Any inkling as to how many marines will come in a box? 5?

Bremon wrote:
Well taking multiple of the “best things” realistically in this case just means optimizing a squad for camping or CC etc, rather than having diseased T5 tac marine jack-of-some-trades average-to-bad-at-all squad. I expect options to be limited requiring multiple boxes but here’s hoping. I can’t believe poxwalkers and marines are taking so long in the first place; all the EZ build kits do in my eyes is push people toward more dark imperium boxes, which is basically giving away free rulebooks, etc.

Any inkling as to how many marines will come in a box? 5?

7 in a box, with parts for icon/champion, who are also sold as alternative models at $25 (USD) a pop.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Their main selling point is their super good resilience. maybe someone should just try a parking lot style list spamming plague crawlers bubble wrapped with cheap infantry and see if it can outshoot a shooty Gulliman list.

Maybe its hit rate may not be as good as a Gulliman shooty list, but maybe it will make up for that by its resilience as it keeps on pumping out those shots turn after turn after turn because the things are just so darn hard to kill. lol

It sorta works, though I'm not sure which RG parking lot is considered best atm. If it's still razorback spam, then yeah a set of 5-6 can probably outshoot most of the lists I saw, he'd need an absurd amount of lascannons as opposed to assault cannons. If stormravens are back, those pose more of an issue, as we discussed how - to hit screws them over.

Still, it's possible that you could build a decent anti meta list using a heavy support detachment of these, morty in his own LoW detachment, and a battalion for CP and to get your screening troops. I think it'll run into problems if you face a full horde army or the apparently popular assassins+conscripts list I've yet to really examine.

What does the community think about Scabreiathrax as a LoW option? I've read some good reports about the big guy in the Daemon tactica. Granted, he's not Mortarion offensively, but he seems to synnergize with DG fairly well. Tough as nails, buffs Nurgle units, bring Daemon powers to the table without a full detachment, and hits hard enough to one-shot Knights. Thoughts?

No personal experience but he looks a little overcosted to me? His only really useful buff for us is the -1 to hit in the fight phase and he's so slow that may not work amazingly in practice. He's also a beatstick, but I think morty is honestly better damage for his points (haven't sat down and done the math, but at a glance that's what it looks like).

I think that the resilience on the PBCs pairs well with aggressive tactics. Personally I'm going to try an army with 3 Crawlers and 4 Drones with Marines/Walkers

Move the Crawlers up full distance turn one to get in that 12-24" range for all weapons, move the Drones up with a combination of spitters and mowers to help distract from the Crawlers. Then use the Poxwalkers to screen the Crawlers from the front and sides, then fan out the Marines behind them to secure objectives/deny deep strike/and hopefully double tap plasma at the enemy.

Throw in a couple sorcerers for Miasma and Vitality to keep the pox walkers alive.

Not sure how it'll work but I'm definitely going to try it. Maybe even take out a Drone and some Marines to throw Mortarion in there.