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Getting my Blightlords this weekend and I am torn between combi-plasma and combi-melta.
The plasma is a good all-round weapon and IA granting RF at 18" is significant. The termies can be dropped aggressively forward, back in cover defensively, or in cover hovering near the 18" mark and become an adamantium thorn in your enemy's side. The downsides are that plasma is already plentiful in our army with little reason not to hand it to every PM squad, Sorcerer, and Chaos Lord we have, as well as coming standard on some of our elites. At some point you reach a point of saturation and the returns diminish quickly. Also requires a lord if you want to supercharge, as those are some spendy Get's Hot losses.
Melta helps patch a gap in our arsenal: That of forward ranged AT. We have other AT, but it involves hanging way back or charging quickly in for the relative safety of melee. This also seems to be our only good method of DS'ing into the enemy backline for threatening parking lot armies between turns (Not everyone has mastered screening ). The downside being overall range and the combination of slow move speed and melta bonus range means you may not get the bonus damage after moving on turn 2. I feel like that round 2 bonus damage is needed to keep melta reliable enough to use. IA prevents the worst issue of melta: loss of accuracy on the move which is something these guys definitely need. Does not require babysitting for efficiency. Has to be deployed forward termicide style to be effective. Has the added benefit of diversifying your choice of targets, as our melee loadout is very anti-elite oriented compared to most other terminator configurations.
Which to choose? Is the answer those Anvil Industries combi's with swappable barrels?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/24 21:29:55
Melta every time with blightlords. Do you really want to lose a 60pt terminator by overheating? The melta allows you to also run and still shoot (something you must do a lot since they are so slow). We have so many other plasma options I can’t see why anyone would ever want to take it on blightlords. The other option is to put no melta/plasma on them and keep them cheap Combi-bolter close combat monsters for a minimum price.
I'll most likely go with the cheap option if I get any Blightlords for my DG army. I do want some as I love the models, but they are already expensive for what they do. I would probably take a flail, but the rest would get either baleswords or bubotic axes and all of them would probably just get combi-bolters, keeping the squad cheap while they still pack some combat power. Of course getting into melee could be problematic due to the glacial movement speed.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
I feel like if I'm running plasma, I need a lord so I can justify overcharging with the re-rolls. I've ran plasma and melta, I feel like I rarely have good targets for plasma, but there are always good targets for melta.
Flail is 100% auto take for me. The ability for wounds to spill over is very, very nice. 2D3 attacks with it is awesome, and is great at slapping just about everything around.
gwarsh41 wrote: I feel like if I'm running plasma, I need a lord so I can justify overcharging with the re-rolls. I've ran plasma and melta, I feel like I rarely have good targets for plasma, but there are always good targets for melta.
Flail is 100% auto take for me. The ability for wounds to spill over is very, very nice. 2D3 attacks with it is awesome, and is great at slapping just about everything around.
Anything that is a good target for melta's is a good target for overcharged plasma, they're not that far apart in effectiveness when double-tapping plasma (Plasma has slightly higher raw average damage potential while melta has 1 better AP). The only circumstances where combimelta pull ahead significantly is when you stand closer than 6" away. Thing with plasma is that it's also amazing against heavy infantry, a perk that melta doesn't have. I find the 1/36th chance of losing a Terminator (with Lord) to be an acceptable risk for overcharging due to it's amazing versatility and the 18" double-tapping (this allows better positioning for deepstriking), but that's just me.
I guess I could also take plasmaguns on normal Plague Marines but you can't deepstrike those within rapid-fire range of that pesky Hellblaster squad or quadlas Predator turn 1 (I use my Blightlords as an alpha strike unit to kill high value stuff and draw fire away from Mortarion, something they were very effective at in my playtest game).
Flails are nice but in a squad of just 5 I feel they aren't worth taking. My local meta consists of mostly shooty armies and with Blightlords moving at a snails' pace I'm not expecting to ever charge anything. In a larger squad (7+) I'd probably take a flail as a charge deterrent, but that's it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 22:50:40
I've used my GK Paladins to proxy Blightlords so far, and the two make for good comparison, both being about 300 points with equipment. It also forms my bias about the DG termies writ large.
Spoiler:
I'd say the extra wound and psychic powers compare roughly to cataphractii armor, stratagem synergy, and DR.
Blightlords basic melee is sub-par compared to most termies. Most squads are weilding power fists, thunder hammers, or force weapons. While our plague weapons are mechanically cool, the damage per hit just isn't there. The flail is our great equalizer. Effective vs. characters, elites, monsters, and hordes it is really the only thing that makes Blightlords so threatening in combat. Without it, they really aren't close combat monsters at all. When the model I proxy has 4 -2ap d3 swings per model, I would like something to make me feel I'd rather not just be fielding that model for the same points.
Similarly, Combi-bolters don't impress me on Lords. If the goal was to keep them cheap, then any other Terminator brings the same firepower and accuracy for less cost, and CSM termies can leverage better use the weapon then we can even with extended rapid fire. What they don't have have is the utility provided by IA to those heavy hitting weapons we use. Having that added firepower lends more threat to the Lord's presence and forces the enemy to deal with our resilience if our melee alone doesn't cut muster.
Tl;Dr: I think the flail is mandatory and we need the plasma or melta to be properly threatening. Everyone has given solid arguments and I'm not any closer to deciding. I enjoy the exchange though!
I was just thinking about how we are limited to D1 weapons on Blightlords after I was looking at the deathshroud and thinking about their damage output.
The deathshroud are basically S8 -3 D3.
Powerfists are generally S8 -3 D3 (x2 S4 is average) with their only downside being -1 to hit.
So if we could take fists on blightlords, it might just make the deathshroud seem pathetic in comparison. They are already very expensive from eye of mortarion and silent bodyguard. If GW was to give us terminators that could do the same damage AND have combi weapons, deathgshroud would never sell.
As for the sad melee weapons we can take, I've been going with axes, but the -3 on the swords is pretty tempting. Which do you prefer?
I'm also curious in the axe/sword question.
The flail is sweet so I'm going to probably go 1 flail, 1 blightlauncher, and 3 combi-bolters? Unsure on the sword/axe
gwarsh41 wrote: I feel like if I'm running plasma, I need a lord so I can justify overcharging with the re-rolls. I've ran plasma and melta, I feel like I rarely have good targets for plasma, but there are always good targets for melta.
Flail is 100% auto take for me. The ability for wounds to spill over is very, very nice. 2D3 attacks with it is awesome, and is great at slapping just about everything around.
Anything that is a good target for melta's is a good target for overcharged plasma, they're not that far apart in effectiveness when double-tapping plasma (Plasma has slightly higher raw average damage potential while melta has 1 better AP). The only circumstances where combimelta pull ahead significantly is when you stand closer than 6" away. Thing with plasma is that it's also amazing against heavy infantry, a perk that melta doesn't have. I find the 1/36th chance of losing a Terminator (with Lord) to be an acceptable risk for overcharging due to it's amazing versatility and the 18" double-tapping (this allows better positioning for deepstriking), but that's just me.
I guess I could also take plasmaguns on normal Plague Marines but you can't deepstrike those within rapid-fire range of that pesky Hellblaster squad or quadlas Predator turn 1 (I use my Blightlords as an alpha strike unit to kill high value stuff and draw fire away from Mortarion, something they were very effective at in my playtest game).
Flails are nice but in a squad of just 5 I feel they aren't worth taking. My local meta consists of mostly shooty armies and with Blightlords moving at a snails' pace I'm not expecting to ever charge anything. In a larger squad (7+) I'd probably take a flail as a charge deterrent, but that's it.
Yes plasma is wonderful, but on terminators that cost 50+ points a model it is a terrible option. You don’t want to overcharge them and potentially lose one of your armies most resilient models/units. Stick with melta and you won’t run into this issue. The flail is an auto include and you should never leave home without it. It is amazing when you need to clear out hordes. I have had these guys chew through ork mobs with little to no effort. If you are just going to use these terminators as a gunlines unit just buy 2 units of PMs w/3 plasmas each instead.
Axes are amazing choices to take. Having strength 5 means you are usually hitting most infantry on 3s. If you cast blades of putrefaction on them (which I always do) then they are hitting on 2+ rerolling 1s. If you roll any 5s or 6s to wound your axe gains -3 AP. On a roll of 6 you do an additional mortal wound. If you use Veterans of the Long War it even gets better.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/10/27 06:01:52
I'm also curious in the axe/sword question.
The flail is sweet so I'm going to probably go 1 flail, 1 blightlauncher, and 3 combi-bolters? Unsure on the sword/axe
To my surprise, the Blightlauncher on terminators is the exact same as blightlaunchers on plague marines. I figured it would be 3 or 4 shots instead of 2. I don't think it's worth bringing over a combi weapon. I like it on PM, as they might skirt move around objectives and not always be in 18" rapid fire, but terminators should always be able to pop off melta or rapid plasma shots.
Axes are amazing choices to take. Having strength 5 means you are usually hitting most infantry on 3s. If you cast blades of putrefaction on them (which I always do) then they are hitting on 2+ rerolling 1s. If you roll any 5s or 6s to wound your axe gains -3 AP. On a roll of 6 you do an additional mortal wound. If you use Veterans of the Long War it even gets better.
omg, I've always forgotten the aura of rust ability. I think that is a good sell for the axe. It's cheaper, and there is a chance to gain that extra AP.
Thoughts on the plaugeburst crawler? Seems like a more survivable leman russ which is fine but in terms of damage output it seems like a las predator might be better.
Axes are my go-to for all the reasons stated above. That I find they look thematically better on chaos than swords is a bonus.
PBC's are indeed a tougher Russ. Their damage output is less than a pred until a Lord is placed between them, then they come out a bit better. I believe the mathhammer was back 3-5 pages ago. For their points they have been phenomenal.
I don't mind that the crawler has a D6 shots gun, and prefer it to the lascannon pred. It gives you a lot more flexibility at what you shoot at. I find myself firing it at small units like devs and bikes more than tanks. I'll be trying 3 of them with a lord pretty soon.
I don’t know why people think a las-predator does more damage than a PBC. A PBC does even more damage against T8 units, is much much more survivable, and is significantly cheaper. It’s only disadvantage is that it has shorter range. Please visit http://www.mathhammer8thed.com to validate what I am saying on your own. Please don’t forget to add in the damage from the mortar, 2x enthropy guns, and the RoF 4 heavy bolter together.
gwarsh41 wrote: I feel like if I'm running plasma, I need a lord so I can justify overcharging with the re-rolls. I've ran plasma and melta, I feel like I rarely have good targets for plasma, but there are always good targets for melta.
Flail is 100% auto take for me. The ability for wounds to spill over is very, very nice. 2D3 attacks with it is awesome, and is great at slapping just about everything around.
Anything that is a good target for melta's is a good target for overcharged plasma, they're not that far apart in effectiveness when double-tapping plasma (Plasma has slightly higher raw average damage potential while melta has 1 better AP). The only circumstances where combimelta pull ahead significantly is when you stand closer than 6" away. Thing with plasma is that it's also amazing against heavy infantry, a perk that melta doesn't have. I find the 1/36th chance of losing a Terminator (with Lord) to be an acceptable risk for overcharging due to it's amazing versatility and the 18" double-tapping (this allows better positioning for deepstriking), but that's just me.
I guess I could also take plasmaguns on normal Plague Marines but you can't deepstrike those within rapid-fire range of that pesky Hellblaster squad or quadlas Predator turn 1 (I use my Blightlords as an alpha strike unit to kill high value stuff and draw fire away from Mortarion, something they were very effective at in my playtest game).
Flails are nice but in a squad of just 5 I feel they aren't worth taking. My local meta consists of mostly shooty armies and with Blightlords moving at a snails' pace I'm not expecting to ever charge anything. In a larger squad (7+) I'd probably take a flail as a charge deterrent, but that's it.
Yes plasma is wonderful, but on terminators that cost 50+ points a model it is a terrible option. You don’t want to overcharge them and potentially lose one of your armies most resilient models/units. Stick with melta and you won’t run into this issue. The flail is an auto include and you should never leave home without it. It is amazing when you need to clear out hordes. I have had these guys chew through ork mobs with little to no effort. If you are just going to use these terminators as a gunlines unit just buy 2 units of PMs w/3 plasmas each instead.
Depends. I find the added versatility of plasma worth the risk of a 1/36th chance per shot of losing a terminator, others will not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
broxus wrote: I don’t know why people think a las-predator does more damage than a PBC. A PBC does even more damage against T8 units, is much much more survivable, and is significantly cheaper. It’s only disadvantage is that it has shorter range. Please visit http://www.mathhammer8thed.com to validate what I am saying on your own. Please don’t forget to add in the damage from the mortar, 2x enthropy guns, and the RoF 4 heavy bolter together.
Huh, you're right (T8 2+ save, so typical LR). Didn't expect that. Mortar is also better than I thought.
Edit: which means that besides having 12" shorter range on the Entropy Cannons and the Heavy Stubber the Crawler is flat-out better than the Predator Annihilator on all fronts. At least if it holds still.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/28 20:19:33
A PBC does more damage than even a 4x las-cannon predator. It almost puts out the same damage as a LR, is more survivable against most weapons, and costs half the points.
Can anyone tell me why I want a Malignant Plaguecaster over a DG Sorcerer, apart from the ability that causes mortal wounds on successful psychic powers?
Luciferian wrote: Can anyone tell me why I want a Malignant Plaguecaster over a DG Sorcerer, apart from the ability that causes mortal wounds on successful psychic powers?
T5 and Disgustingly Resilient, plus a kickass model.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
I know utilizing the CSM dex to supplement our DG with Warptime is a common tactic (especially if you use old morty).
I'm still building my army, but I'm thinking of supporting my army with Havoks, Obliterators, or maybe a Forgefiend (love the model). What other things do ya'll use outside the DG dex to support?
Luciferian wrote: Can anyone tell me why I want a Malignant Plaguecaster over a DG Sorcerer, apart from the ability that causes mortal wounds on successful psychic powers?
T5 and Disgustingly Resilient, plus a kickass model.
Good call, I forgot about DR. As for the model, I already chopped mine up
For the points difference it definitely does seem worthwhile to take the Plaguecaster, but I'm working on a list where I just can't afford him over the Sorcerer.
Zid wrote: I know utilizing the CSM dex to supplement our DG with Warptime is a common tactic (especially if you use old morty).
I'm still building my army, but I'm thinking of supporting my army with Havoks, Obliterators, or maybe a Forgefiend (love the model). What other things do ya'll use outside the DG dex to support?
Alpha Legion Sonic Dreadnoughts, Noise Marines and Slaaneshi Oblits. for moar raw damage to offset our own middling damage.
Night Lords Vangaurd detachment with a bunch of Raptors to stack silly high -Ld tactics for fun.
edit: Modeled up the Blightlords, left the gun arms off for now. Hope to get a test game with melta in later this week. (And a Pox-horde without goofing the rules)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/30 18:59:11
Zid wrote: I know utilizing the CSM dex to supplement our DG with Warptime is a common tactic (especially if you use old morty).
I'm still building my army, but I'm thinking of supporting my army with Havoks, Obliterators, or maybe a Forgefiend (love the model). What other things do ya'll use outside the DG dex to support?
At the moment nothing because of fluff, except for the most dire of circumstances Traitor Legions seem to work on their own and frequently even attack each other. Pity about the Warptime and I'd love me some Obliterators and Havocs but eh. Maybe if I ever go to a Grand Tournament or something I might skimp on my self-imposed restrictions for the sake of being more competitive but for now I'm keeping it mono-Nurgle. I might dig a bit deeper into Nurgle Daemons eventually (also those outside the codex like GUO's or Soul Grinders) though.
For me it's oblits and sorcerers. Don't see much need to take a DG sorcerer when I could take a plaguecaster or typhus who do it better (albeit for a bit more cost)
Zid wrote: I know utilizing the CSM dex to supplement our DG with Warptime is a common tactic (especially if you use old morty).
I'm still building my army, but I'm thinking of supporting my army with Havoks, Obliterators, or maybe a Forgefiend (love the model). What other things do ya'll use outside the DG dex to support?
At the moment nothing because of fluff, except for the most dire of circumstances Traitor Legions seem to work on their own and frequently even attack each other. Pity about the Warptime and I'd love me some Obliterators and Havocs but eh. Maybe if I ever go to a Grand Tournament or something I might skimp on my self-imposed restrictions for the sake of being more competitive but for now I'm keeping it mono-Nurgle. I might dig a bit deeper into Nurgle Daemons eventually (also those outside the codex like GUO's or Soul Grinders) though.
I'm building mine the same way. We're probably doing ourselves a great disservice by doing this but hey, ocd is off! Haha
I am very interested in building a nurgle daemon/DG combo list. Where allll nurgles children are at the party
gwarsh41 wrote: For me it's oblits and sorcerers. Don't see much need to take a DG sorcerer when I could take a plaguecaster or typhus who do it better (albeit for a bit more cost)
Aw, why not? Sorcerer on Palanquin is amazeballs! A DG Daemon packing Warptime and Prescience? What's not to love?
). The downside being overall range and the combination of slow move speed and melta bonus range means you may not get the bonus damage after moving on turn 2. I feel like that round 2 bonus damage is needed to keep melta reliable enough to use. 
~15000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: 
~1900 | Imperial Knights: 
~2000 | Sisters of Battle: 
~1200 | Tyranids: 
~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: 
