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 Yoda79 wrote:
Hi I m thinking to start a death guard army. Can someone help out? What would be a user competitive list and how should I start ? I got Mortarion from a paint job and I love the model. I also have ad mech and guard.

Any information and help welcomed.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743245.page

Thanks. Deathsroud bodyg. Worth it?

 Yoda79 wrote:
Thanks. Deathsroud bodyg. Worth it?

At 225pts they were terrible. With the recent points cut they may become viable.

there are other ways to "protect" Mortarion, like play an aggressive list with bloated drones, termies and 2-3 DP, that way you hit their lines turn 1-2, hard to be focused on Morty only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yesterday i played a mixed DG and AL list i got 2nd 5 points short from 1st place

DG battalion
DP, wings talons suppurating plate, general
Thypus
20+20+10 pox
6 blightlord termies 5 combiplasma 1 flail

super heavy
Mortarion

AL battalion
DP slaanesh, talons, wings
termy sorcerer, force staff, nurgle
30 cultists MoS 1 flamer
10+10 cultists MoN

for next tourmanent i m thinking about this (i cant use two times same detachment

DG outriders
DP, wings talons, suppurating plate, general
3 foetid bloated drones with plaguespitter
7 blightlord termies 6 combiplasma 1 flail

super heavy
Mortarion

AL battlion
DP, MoS, talons wings
termy sorcerer force stave
22 cultists
10+10 cultists

or

DG supreme command
3x Nurgle DP, wings, talons
thypus

super heavy
Mortarion

DG battalion
Nurgle DP, wing talons suppurating plate
Nurgle Dp, wings talons
3x20 poxwalkers
tallyman
im 28 points short with this one, I might take out 20 poxes and tallyman for another DG Dp, and 10 cultists, i just wanted avery resilient list which dont give easily 1st blood and cultists wont fit well in it.

 Yoda79 wrote:
Thanks. Deathsroud bodyg. Worth it?

You have to build part of the strategy around them (when they are not part of the strategy around Morty, and many will disagree with me on this last thing, because of the Skornergy in the movement).

What do you people think about the new cost of the Dreadclaw?

The ability to pop a helbrute in it is pretty dang awesome. With the increase of price on soulburners, the decimator might just be pretty nice with dual melee weapons. Lasher/fist helbrute in it would be pretty nice too.

I'd love to try a Dreadclaw with marines and a few Blightspawns inside

 gwarsh41 wrote:
The ability to pop a helbrute in it is pretty dang awesome. With the increase of price on soulburners, the decimator might just be pretty nice with dual melee weapons. Lasher/fist helbrute in it would be pretty nice too.

The contemptor has an overall massive price drop 30+ points, so its probably still alot better than a deci, though as a fast cheap dakka dread the deci still looks great imo.

174 points: double butcher contemptor+havoc
218 points double chainfist+double burner

What are the current costs of the deci version of those builds???

I posted a chapter approved DG list with 3 dreadclaws and it looked really good, in the list forum!! page2.

5man squad of marines with 2 blight 1 plasma, then allows any combination of 5 slots left for elites/lords/casters, then 1-2 pods for dreads. then suicide rush your dread claws forward to draw thier attn while whatever you dropped off sits back and unloads/positions etc.

On another forum I wrote some brainstorming/musings on comparing Helbrutes, Myphitic Blight-Haulers and Plagueburst Crawlers. No math or anything, just basically random thoughts. I figured I'd repost it below just so others can see it. I might be completely off the mark, or maybe not, just my thoughts on it:
---
As of Chapter Approved, the Plagueburst Crawler is 146 points for the Plagueburst Mortar and 2x Entropy Cannons (I don't think the Rothail Volley Gun is worth taking; you want longer range so it doesn't have to move).

The Myphitic Blight-Hauler is 142 points for its locked configuration of Multi-melta and Missile Launcher (and Bile Spurt but that's largely irrelevant I think).

A Helbrute with Lascannon and Missile Launcher is 147 points for roughly the same statline as the Blight-Hauler (again, ignoring the Bile Spurt and its Gnashing Maw), minus the invulnerable and Disgustingly Resilient, but has 3+ BS and also ignores movement penalties (so is as reliable as 3 Blight-Haulers to get the 3+ BS). Also gets an additional strong anti-tank shot from the TL Lascannon, while the Blight-Hauler wants to be within 12" to get the bonus from its Multi-Melta. Howver, the Helbrute falls behind the Blight Hauler within 12" as the Blight Hauler has its extra attacks from the Bile Spurt, and is better in melee than an anti-tank Helbrute due to the Gnashing Maw.

A Helbrute equipped the same as the Blight-Hauler (again, minus the Bile Spurt and Gnashing Maw), so Multi-Melta and Missile Launcher, is only 124 points.

The Blight-Hauler also has the weird place of wanting to be up close (due to the Multi-melta and Bile Spurt), but is a fast moving vehicle in an otherwise slow army, that it also provides cover for if they are close to it.

So going off of this, what I think a good rule of thumb might be this:

* If you only want anti-tank, the Helbrute with TL Lascannon and Missile Launcher is better than the Blight Hauler; longer range and you don't need to take 3 to get the more reliable shots (although 2-3 would still be nasty)

* If you want a jack-of-all-trades unit that has versatility, then I think the Blight-Hauler starts to shine; it has anti-tank (slightly less than the Las/ML Helbrute), it's relatively tanky so will divert enemy fire and it has the cover bonus that is IMHO a cherry on top; you should not try to always have it, but if you can get it then it's nice. Unfortunately I think being a "jack of all trades" drops its usefulness when talking about "competitive" since you really want to specialize, and it does not, since the Crawler is tankier and the Las/ML Helbrute is more reliable at anti-tank. That's not to say it's bad, but it kind of sits in between as a mobile weapons platform that can also absorb shots. The 4+ BS really hurts it here, I think. If it was 3+ (i.e. you didn't need 3 of them) it might push ahead.

* If you want more resilience, then the Crawler shines. The thing with the Crawler is that it seems to be in a weird spot because it has mixed weapon types which is normally a no-no; the mortar doesn't require LOS so you want to park it behind a building or other terrain piece and bombard the enemy, but the rest of its weapons do and if you move out to take a shot, you're hitting on 5s. Using it as a main tank still lets you target things that you don't have LOS to, but it's not an artillery platform like, say, a Basilisk or Griffon is where you park it in some ruins and it never moves. You want it to have clear shots to targets, and use the LOS ignoring mortar to make it so enemies can't hide, rather than so you can hide.

I don’t think you ever want a crawler behind a building. The mortar isn’t so you can hide; it’s so the enemy can’t. Crawlers are stupidly durable. You want them tanking shots so weaker stuff doesn’t have to.

Bremon wrote:
I don’t think you ever want a crawler behind a building. The mortar isn’t so you can hide; it’s so the enemy can’t. Crawlers are stupidly durable. You want them tanking shots so weaker stuff doesn’t have to.

I agree with that. Is not a basilisk and one should put in the context of an army designed, at least theoretically, to slowly march toward the enemy and engage it at mid-close range.

Don't forget DG have that stratagem that the Hellbrute can fire all weapons twice. Maybe that makes a difference in comparison? Also, how would a Defiler compare? Too expensive to compare to those others fairly?

I'm looking to fill anti armor slots in my army atm so I'm interested

Well with the points decrease, a defiler with just a Battle Cannon and Autocannon is 155 points. Compared to the Crawler it has 2 more wounds, 1 less toughness, 1 less movement, 1 more attack, no Disgustingly Resilient but heals 1 wound each turn. Still has the 5++ invulnerable.

I'm still not seeing it being worth it compared to the others. It's a cool model, but you're paying more for not much better IMHO. It's decent in combat with the scourge, but then it goes up to 167 points.

Wayniac wrote:
Well with the points decrease, a defiler with just a Battle Cannon and Autocannon is 155 points. Compared to the Crawler it has 2 more wounds, 1 less toughness, 1 less movement, 1 more attack, no Disgustingly Resilient but heals 1 wound each turn. Still has the 5++ invulnerable.

I'm still not seeing it being worth it compared to the others. It's a cool model, but you're paying more for not much better IMHO. It's decent in combat with the scourge, but then it goes up to 167 points.

One would argue that the price paid with the scourge is a greater gain for the Defiler in the 155 --> 167 upgrade.
The thing is still victim of its schizophrenic design but there is not that much that can be done, one would argue that these are the best core rules for him since forever.

I'm also wondering about anti-armor in my list. In a mostly mono-DG list (with AL jump sorcerer and cultists) I made, I was able to fit in two Haulers and two Crawlers. It also has an Arch-Contaminator Termi-Lord with a combi-melta, but that's to ward off any Alpha-strikes. Between the two multi-melta platforms and the mortars, would this be sufficient to match vehicles (save for a tank list)?

I'm starting a DG army and bought tons of dark imperium stuff off ebay. I feel like I have a good concept for a 1500 pt starter army.

Now the plan would be to use a "Hammer and anvil" style strategy with this force. The Hammer consists of the Daemon prince with wings who will follow the two Bloat drones on a flank using arch-contaminator to upgrade their lethality (2d6 auto-hits, re-roll wounds) meanwhile the two squads of plague marines and squad of cultists, Hellbrute, plague caster and Lord advance up the middle (slow but steady- the anvil) The Blight hauler will accompany them giving the plague marines added protection and provide some firepower. The Lord will mitigate the 3 plasma guns and his own plasma pistol and the plague caster will buff and add extra offensive power. The Blightlords will deep strike likely in the midfield to be able to stay in the battle and be a threat all game or even if the need arises used to deppstrike in the enemy backfield to take out any worthy threats.

At 2000 points I would likely trade the plague caster for Typhus and stick him with the blightlords. Also add a Rhino with another 5 Plague marines, a foul blightspawn and biologus putrifier for a mobile grenade nuking unit.

Any critiques or advice on this list? I have yet to play an 8th edition game yet so in theory and in practice I might be way off......

More I think, more the hauler pulls ahead. The issue with the Helbrute is that it dies really easily, even if it's better at shooting. The Crawler is great, but can never really move or it can't hit worth crap, and combined with so many things having the -1 to hit > 12" rule, you're often hitting awful anyways. So there is, in fact, a good bit of overlap between the Hauler and the Crawler, both being tanky, resilient vehicles that pack relatively strong weaponry.

The Hauler has to close in quicker (but moves faster), ignores the to-hit penalty for moving and shooting, and has no degrading profile so its stats don't get worse, unlike the crawler. Points-wise you're looking at roughly the same; 146 for the Crawler with Entropy Cannons (post-Chapter Approved;Rothail Volleygun is still IMHO not worth taking) and 142 for the Hauler. The Crawler now has longer range and one extra power shot at range while the Hauler shines more at 12" because it gets the Bile Spurt and is way better in combat due to the Gnashing Maw. Also, your force is advancing up the field as it is, so there is a little bit more synergy with the Hauler since it A) wants to move forward to get in range for its multi-melta, and B) can freely move forward with the rest of the army, while the Crawler cannot.

One point though to add yet another decision to this is if one is playing the ITC Champions missions, the Recon secondary mission requires you to have a unit in each quarter of the table to score it. In this case, and only in this case, the Crawler can push ahead slightly because it will not need to move with the rest of the army while the Hauler will be pressing forward. However, Recon is also an optional secondary mission, so you do not have to select it.

I’ve done the math on the blight hauler. It’s has pretty low damage output and it takes significantly,less damage to kill one. The plague burst crawler really shines when you back it up with a warlord with arch contaminator.

I have been running lists that are designed to kill tanks as the local meta sometimes favored armor heavy meta. I’ve been allying in CSM so I can use obliterators. I’ve also been using the Daemonfordge strategem on the defiler. Those things are awesome. Also, they are tougher to kill than a land raider and can easily punch their way out of a melee. Statistically speaking though, the twin heavy bolster is a better anti tank weapon than the auto cannon.

I also usually run a twin las missile Launcher HelBrute. I lurk in the back field and occasionally get to use the twin shot strategem. When it works out it’s pretty awesome. I also have a twin hb fist with heavy flamer HelBrute for anti infantry work.

melbards wrote:
I'm starting a DG army and bought tons of dark imperium stuff off ebay. I feel like I have a good concept for a 1500 pt starter army.

snip

Swap the DP sword for malefic talons, the massive increase in attacks makes up for the loss of 1 dmg. Talons are better in just about every single situation. I generally don't bother with special weapons on the blightlords. The blight launcher is the same as the DG one, personally I think it should be stronger as it is on terminators. You don't have very much anti tank, if you can find room (maybe after chapter approved discounts) to give them all combi meltas and axes with 1 flail, it is a very reliable way to run them. Other people like plasma, for the 18" rapid fire as well. I would drop the blightlords with melta on an enemy flank as close as possible. In the middle of the field, they will be shot by almost everything, but on a flank, they have a good chance of being out of range, and LoS blocked by your opponents vehicles. Then you are in your opponents face and don't have to slug up the board with that sad 4" move. Their aura makes those axes very useful in CC, against most everything. Personally it is tough for me to bring a plague caster, I'm always drawn to a sorcerer with some way to deep strike, so I can buff the terminators (but I really really like terminators) giving them -1 to be hit, or +1S and T is pretty sweet.

All in all it is a good list, most important change for me is talons on the prince, it's just too good to pass up.

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I've also put together a list to help me get my feet wet after a month break from gaming, and to help me prep for an Apoc game I am bringing 10k to. I wanted to try out some of the shenanigans I've seen around and see how well plague marines will hold up with the point cost reduction.




I looove typhus, but I feel like he is out of place because he has nothing to drop in with. I could drop him for a bloat drone to run around with the DP. I wish I could squeeze in a plague hulk, they are awesome fire magnets, but no DG means it would be an aux detachment.
The surgeon is a little tailoring, I know my opponents and I know I'll be facing marines. Earlier in the thread I saw some shenanigans with him I have been wanting to try. You use vets of the long war and cast blades of putrefaction on him while he has the sword. Now you have +3 to wound astartes infantry, you do 1 mortal wound per +3, and 2 mortal wounds for each +4, he could put out 6 mortal wounds and 3 power sword wounds... though compared to a foul blightspawn, who can melt pretty much anything in the game... crap... plague surgeon stinks just a bit doesn't he?
Guess I could drop 2 cultists and just bring another blightspawn.
Blightspawns + plague marines in rhinos, chaos lord hangs out near PBC, jump pack is if I would rather have him with the plague marines. Fire raptor does what I fire raptor does, and shoots more bullets than it has business shooting.

Honestly, if you trim the plague marines down to a more basic loadout (2 5 man squads with the launchers and flails, no plasma fist in the sarges) you could fit in a unit of cheaper deathshroud, who are now actually worth using. They close to the right balance of cost, durability, and lethality to work as a distraction carnifex and supplement typhus nicely. Blightlord termis can also work, tougher but a little less scary, but a min unit actually costs a little more even without any upgrades. I'm personally looking forward to trying it myself.

I'm looking forward to using more plague marines again myself. Particularly with the double blight launcher, 105 points isn't bad for tough troops with solid firepower. I at least feel like they have a role in my army again which is nice. Well, besides the grenade stratagem.

On a different note, as far is it goes crawlers seem to be the best choice by far for anti tank. They are so cheap for what they do, outperforming most of our other antitank options despite being cheaper and/or tougher. Dreadnoughts are also solid, but mainly the forgeworld ones, default helbrute is honestly not putting out much more damage for cost than the crawler but dies much much easier.

I do like the idea of having 3 little Haulers buzzing around hunting tanks. Sprinkling cover saves around while they do so. Like Wayniac said, they feel a little more synergistic.
And when they've reached the end of their rope there is always the auto detonate stratagem to use as well for one final F you

SilverAlien wrote:
Honestly, if you trim the plague marines down to a more basic loadout (2 5 man squads with the launchers and flails, no plasma fist in the sarges) you could fit in a unit of cheaper deathshroud, who are now actually worth using. They close to the right balance of cost, durability, and lethality to work as a distraction carnifex and supplement typhus nicely. Blightlord termis can also work, tougher but a little less scary, but a min unit actually costs a little more even without any upgrades. I'm personally looking forward to trying it myself.

I'm looking forward to using more plague marines again myself. Particularly with the double blight launcher, 105 points isn't bad for tough troops with solid firepower. I at least feel like they have a role in my army again which is nice. Well, besides the grenade stratagem.

On a different note, as far is it goes crawlers seem to be the best choice by far for anti tank. They are so cheap for what they do, outperforming most of our other antitank options despite being cheaper and/or tougher. Dreadnoughts are also solid, but mainly the forgeworld ones, default helbrute is honestly not putting out much more damage for cost than the crawler but dies much much easier.

Done and done! Thinking about it, I guess the 2 flails are plenty of CC oomph, and I have a load of good shooty from the fire raptor and tanks. Really looking forward to fielding this list now!

Does anyone see a use for the Lord of Contagion now that he has a pts drop? The 4+ invul is handy. I usually use a DP as Warlord, but the LoC is cheaper and I always kinda like cheap throw away HQs as my Warlord to disrupt Enemy Target Priorities.

What Warlord trait would work best on the LoC?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Does anyone see a use for the Lord of Contagion now that he has a pts drop? The 4+ invul is handy. I usually use a DP as Warlord, but the LoC is cheaper and I always kinda like cheap throw away HQs as my Warlord to disrupt Enemy Target Priorities.

What Warlord trait would work best on the LoC?

If you want him to be a force multiplier you can go for Arch contaminator. If you want him cheap and throw away revoltingly resilient would keep him alive longer. Or the one that reduces damage by 1. Even healing a wound a player turn wouldn't be that bad.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Does anyone see a use for the Lord of Contagion now that he has a pts drop? The 4+ invul is handy. I usually use a DP as Warlord, but the LoC is cheaper and I always kinda like cheap throw away HQs as my Warlord to disrupt Enemy Target Priorities.

What Warlord trait would work best on the LoC?

I really like the healing a wound per player turn. Those wounds are hard to get through. Sure if the enemy can one-round him it doesn't do anything, but more often than not they don't and the damage they did turns to waste as he heals it away, which is incredibly demoralising.

Also bear in mind that beyond the improved invulnerable, the LoC gets so much more from Stratagems.
He can roll on the boon table, while the DP can't. Some of those boons are very tasty. 7" move LoC, add one to all saving throws, (very lol with the Suppurating Plate).
You can give him VotLW. Wounding T5 on 2+ with a reroll of 1s...
He can also be healed with Grandfathers blessings. Opponent could take 5 wounds off him and when his turn rolls around again, he's back to full 6 wound complement, which is insane.

Depending on your meta reducing dmg (Rotten constitution) by 1 seems strong, but I find it kinda skornegy with Disgustingly resilient. Tainted Regeneration is like a free 2CP Grandfathers Blessings that stacks with the same.

Revoltingly resilient is WAY better than healing 1 per turn.

Think about it this way. If you take enough wounds your dead anyways so future healing won’t matter. Revoltingly resilient works against all incoming damage including mortal wounds and works in both player turns etc.

I ran a prince with revoltingly resilient and supturating plate in several recent games. He has yet to die. In one game vrs tau he soaked up two turns of fire from the whole army and walked away with scratches.

 sennacherib wrote:
Revoltingly resilient is WAY better than healing 1 per turn.

Think about it this way. If you take enough wounds your dead anyways so future healing won’t matter. Revoltingly resilient works against all incoming damage including mortal wounds and works in both player turns etc.

Interested in this. Note Revoltingly Resilient Doesn't work against mortal wounds.
Others have said that the BRB trait Tenacious Survivor is better than RR but I'm not convinced.
Tainted Regeneration works in both turns which sounds good, but odds are you will take all your damage in one phase, so also not convinced. There are also others ways of regenerating.
I actually quite like Rotten Constitution, helps against those big Damage weapons.
Hulking Physique just seems like it's always going to be worse than the other options.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Revoltingly resilient is WAY better than healing 1 per turn.

Think about it this way. If you take enough wounds your dead anyways so future healing won’t matter. Revoltingly resilient works against all incoming damage including mortal wounds and works in both player turns etc.

Interested in this. Note Revoltingly Resilient Doesn't work against mortal wounds.
Others have said that the BRB trait Tenacious Survivor is better than RR but I'm not convinced.
Tainted Regeneration works in both turns which sounds good, but odds are you will take all your damage in one phase, so also not convinced. There are also others ways of regenerating.
I actually quite like Rotten Constitution, helps against those big Damage weapons.
Hulking Physique just seems like it's always going to be worse than the other options.

Never noticed that Revolting resilience didn’t work on mortal wounds. Hmmm

Unless my math hammer is wrong...
Tenacious survivor only increases survivability by 10.95%
Revoltingly resilient increases survivability by 16.6% vs all but mortal wounds
Tainted regeneration works unless you’ve taken enough wounds to kill you, I would always rather not take damage than plan on trying to heal.
Rotten reduces damage from big hits like a las Cannon by about 28% on average. Depends on what wounds your warlord the most.
Hulking physique helps sometimes by giving you a 16% less chance of being wounded. Most of the time it won’t help though since your already T5. Unless you are being swarmed with Str 3 or Str 10 attacks, this trait seems pretty worthless.

So it looks like revolting>tenacious >hulking. Rotten constitution is very situational. Against small arms it does nothing. Against big stuff it works ok.

The reason I don't like Rotten is that you get a DR save against that wound anyway. Revolting is preferable.

I don't find my Warlord gets 1 rounded that often, and in the case he does, often the preventative traits wouldn't have prevented enough anyway. The recursion benefit in the case where he isn't one rounded is so so strong I always consider Tainted. Sure you can use Grandfathers Blessings on a LOC, but likely you want to stack them anyway.

As I'm thinking about comp DG lists what is everyone finding working? We have a fairly limited list but if you were to go pure DG for an event what would you include as a must have?

I'm thinking at least two bloat drones and poxwalkers to start with.