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Made in ax
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Would increasing Grav by 5 points and reducing the other options by 10 points make to other weapons as more viable or would Grav still reign default?

What would you consider to make the other alternatives viable as Grav?

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As long as Grav has more shots than the anti-horde weapons and can cripple vehicles and MCs easier than anti-tank weapons I don't see much, if anything ending the grav spam.
   
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Make the other options more potent.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




They should be paying 35 for them but the issue comes from that the Heavy Bolter itself isn't good.
Once they get 4 shots it still won't be enough as you can get cheaper Heavy Bolters elsewhere.

Actually that's th3 primary issue. Why am I wanting 3 Heavy Bolters on Centurions when I can get like almost twice the amount elsewhere?

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 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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I agree, HBs should be at least Salvo 3/5 weapons with Rending.

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Martel732 wrote:
Make the other options more potent.


Agreed. I think the main issue when it comes to grav vs not-grav is that grav performs most jobs about as well as other options if not better. So it's extremely versatile while still being great at its niche. Among the jobs it doesn't do as well as other guns is killing lightly armored stuff, but the rest of your army is going to be perfectly good for exploding poor guardsmen and kabalites.


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. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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Grav is too good against too many things. Make it work like pre-7e grav (30k, 2e), blast weapons that roll to wound based on the target's Strength with no AP and make people move as if through terrain, and it might end up having a niche of its own rather than being better against everything.

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Martel732 wrote:
Make the other options more potent.


Isn't that basically adding to the power creep? Surely the better option is to nerf grav RoF/graviton rule, e.g. wounds infantry on a 6+, bulky models 5+, v. bulky 4+, extremely bulky 3+, MCs/GCs 2+, vehicles same effect as now (but fewer shots per grav weapon), maybe without stripping the HPs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/01 14:39:42


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 hippyjr wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Make the other options more potent.


Isn't that basically adding to the power creep? Surely the better option is to nerf grav RoF/graviton rule, e.g. wounds infantry on a 6+, bulky models 5+, v. bulky 4+, extremely bulky 3+, MCs/GCs 2+, vehicles same effect as now (but fewer shots per grav weapon), maybe without stripping the HPs.


This is Martel. He thinks the Riptide Wing and Scatterbikes need to be the baseline everything should be balanced around.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 hippyjr wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Make the other options more potent.


Isn't that basically adding to the power creep? Surely the better option is to nerf grav RoF/graviton rule, e.g. wounds infantry on a 6+, bulky models 5+, v. bulky 4+, extremely bulky 3+, MCs/GCs 2+, vehicles same effect as now (but fewer shots per grav weapon), maybe without stripping the HPs.


This is Martel. He thinks the Riptide Wing and Scatterbikes need to be the baseline everything should be balanced around.

At the same time, the Heavy Bolter has never been good. What will nerfing grav do other than make both options bad?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 hippyjr wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Make the other options more potent.


Isn't that basically adding to the power creep? Surely the better option is to nerf grav RoF/graviton rule, e.g. wounds infantry on a 6+, bulky models 5+, v. bulky 4+, extremely bulky 3+, MCs/GCs 2+, vehicles same effect as now (but fewer shots per grav weapon), maybe without stripping the HPs.


No, that's not the better option. Power creep is here. Lascannons shouldn't be worthless. They are. They need fixed. Imperial heavy weapons in general are trash. Autocannons are okayish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 hippyjr wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Make the other options more potent.


Isn't that basically adding to the power creep? Surely the better option is to nerf grav RoF/graviton rule, e.g. wounds infantry on a 6+, bulky models 5+, v. bulky 4+, extremely bulky 3+, MCs/GCs 2+, vehicles same effect as now (but fewer shots per grav weapon), maybe without stripping the HPs.


This is Martel. He thinks the Riptide Wing and Scatterbikes need to be the baseline everything should be balanced around.


Until there is a legal restriction on those units, why not? I can't stop my opponents from using them. And they are ubiquitous.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/01 15:59:54


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Make the other options more potent.


Really this, anything else is just crappy in comparison. It's gotten to the point now where it's I have 10 tac marines, 1 grav cannon, 1 grav gun, and 8 other guys to soak up wounds for them.

The whole Bolter family need to be upgraded to make them worth while, plasma needs to have a better gimic, Imo make plasma cannon a large blast, and plasma gun an assault. Melta I'm not sure what to do with.

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 Backspacehacker wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Make the other options more potent.


Really this, anything else is just crappy in comparison. It's gotten to the point now where it's I have 10 tac marines, 1 grav cannon, 1 grav gun, and 8 other guys to soak up wounds for them.

The whole Bolter family need to be upgraded to make them worth while, plasma needs to have a better gimic, Imo make plasma cannon a large blast, and plasma gun an assault. Melta I'm not sure what to do with.


Cause multiple wounds to MCs. Because it burns a hole straight fething through them. MCs are why melta and lascannons suck.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/01 16:21:02


 
   
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True, then again the laz cannon is also a joke as well. But I say meltas could cause d3 wounds on a 6 to wound, and a multi melta can either do that at a greater range or add d6 wounds on a 6, d 3 normally

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" But I say meltas could cause d3 wounds on a 6 to wound"

That's way too inconsistent to be useful. Buckets of dice is still much better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/01 16:23:55


 
   
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Italy

Grav weapons should be single shots IMHO, grav cannon 2/3 or small blast, definitely not 3/5. Maybe with the gets hot special rule.

 
   
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 Blackie wrote:
Grav weapons should be single shots IMHO, grav cannon 2/3 or small blast, definitely not 3/5. Maybe with the gets hot special rule.


That neuters them as anti-mc. And that's the whole point. If you want a useful nerf, make vehicles immune to grav.
   
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Backspacehacker wrote:True, then again the laz cannon is also a joke as well. But I say meltas could cause d3 wounds on a 6 to wound, and a multi melta can either do that at a greater range or add d6 wounds on a 6, d 3 normally

I don't like Tesla's ability to add Wounds on a roll of 6, and I do not like this here. It should provide Dx Wounds consistently. Leave ID out the mix for these Weapons and just use that option to be consistent. If it can do that many Wounds to a Character via ID, it should be able to do that many Wounds to larger creatures. This would compensate Vehicles for their lack of Hull Points.

Blackie wrote:Grav weapons should be single shots IMHO, grav cannon 2/3 or small blast, definitely not 3/5. Maybe with the gets hot special rule.

Grav Guns should be either Rapid Fire or Salvo 2/1. I do like your Grav Cannon setup, but Heavy Bolters should be changed to either Salvo 2/4, 3/4, to 3/5.

I am debating on the usefulness of changing the Storm Bolter to 2/3 or not. Largely because we need to be consider how a Sternguard/Sergeant can use it as well as Terminators.

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 Backspacehacker wrote:
...The whole Bolter family need to be upgraded to make them worth while...


Bolters are fine if you're in a game where infantry exists. They're only bad if you're operating under the assumption that the entire game has been reduced to Monstrous Creatures, free-vehicle-spam, 100%-heavy-weapon-density jetbikes, rerollable-2+ bikestars, and superheavies.

Personally I'd rather design to a game where you can use more than a quarter of the available models/Codexes, infantry are a necessary component of the game, and Monstrous Creatures are a destructive big support tool available in limited quantities rather than the core of your army, instead of taking basic infantry weapons and pumping them up to the point where you can't actually use basic infantry because they're too easily destroyed by basic infantry weapons so you need to start pumping durability, which makes basic infantry weapons bad again, all the way until the feedback loop gives us Space Marines with the stats of Riptides, but apparently this makes me weird.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 hippyjr wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Make the other options more potent.


Isn't that basically adding to the power creep? Surely the better option is to nerf grav RoF/graviton rule, e.g. wounds infantry on a 6+, bulky models 5+, v. bulky 4+, extremely bulky 3+, MCs/GCs 2+, vehicles same effect as now (but fewer shots per grav weapon), maybe without stripping the HPs.


This is Martel. He thinks the Riptide Wing and Scatterbikes need to be the baseline everything should be balanced around.

Scatter bikes with soul burst are actually over twice as strong as before because they are even shooting back at you in your shooting phase. Power level is going UP not DOWN.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grav cannons have a significant weakness in that they can't hurt things that don't have an armor save - good armies don't make themselves vunerable to grav - their power units ether have low invo saves or no armor save at all.

The real issue with grav cannons is causeing immobilized results on vehical damage table - if they didn't do this - they would be very weak anti tank options and would be spammed less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
furthermore - cents with missile and laz cannon aren't that bad - I've used them before and they have done well for me. They don't need an IC escort and can just sit in the back hammering stuff - at that range nothing can really do significant damage to them because they have t5 2W and 2+ saves sitting in 4+ cover. I like to use them in combination with a thunder-fire cannon to increase that cover save even more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Make the other options more potent.


Really this, anything else is just crappy in comparison. It's gotten to the point now where it's I have 10 tac marines, 1 grav cannon, 1 grav gun, and 8 other guys to soak up wounds for them.

The whole Bolter family need to be upgraded to make them worth while, plasma needs to have a better gimic, Imo make plasma cannon a large blast, and plasma gun an assault. Melta I'm not sure what to do with.

Overheat on blast weapons is really bad. Ontop of being hard to hit with there is a 1/6 chance you don't even get to shoot at all whilst possibly killing yourself. Twin linked plasma Cannons aren't that bad though if you ever have the opportunity to use them. (devestator doctorine skyhammer plasma cannons - can really do some damage)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/01 18:11:13


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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In the case of both the Heavy Bolters and Lascannons, how about this:
Just make it two guns, instead of one twin-linked gun. Let the Centurion fire all of its weapons. (Or, give them special varieties that fire two shots, if you want to stick to the 'Can only fire two weapons' rule.)
A HB Centurion goes from getting 2.6 hits on average to 4 hits, and a Lascannon Centurion goes from .89 hits to 1.3.
Plus, Devestator Doctrines become genuinely useful for them, which is nice.
   
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"They're only bad if you're operating under the assumption that the entire game has been reduced to Monstrous Creatures, free-vehicle-spam, 100%-heavy-weapon-density jetbikes, rerollable-2+ bikestars, and superheavies. "

It's not an assumption. It's a reality.

"but apparently this makes me weird."

Just not in tune with what GW is actually doing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/01 18:50:25


 
   
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Waaaghpower wrote:
In the case of both the Heavy Bolters and Lascannons, how about this:
Just make it two guns, instead of one twin-linked gun. Let the Centurion fire all of its weapons. (Or, give them special varieties that fire two shots, if you want to stick to the 'Can only fire two weapons' rule.)
A HB Centurion goes from getting 2.6 hits on average to 4 hits, and a Lascannon Centurion goes from .89 hits to 1.3.
Plus, Devestator Doctrines become genuinely useful for them, which is nice.

I've made the same argument about the TL weapons on the Cents. It would be much more appealing if it were 2 LC.

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 Xenomancers wrote:
...Scatter bikes with soul burst are actually over twice as strong as before because they are even shooting back at you in your shooting phase. Power level is going UP not DOWN...


So I know I'm a broken record screaming into the darkness here, but is that the game you want to be playing? This is Proposed Rules. Where is it written that we're obligated to take a look at GW's mistakes and declare that they justify making the same mistakes, instead of trying to fix things?

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
...Scatter bikes with soul burst are actually over twice as strong as before because they are even shooting back at you in your shooting phase. Power level is going UP not DOWN...


So I know I'm a broken record screaming into the darkness here, but is that the game you want to be playing? This is Proposed Rules. Where is it written that we're obligated to take a look at GW's mistakes and declare that they justify making the same mistakes, instead of trying to fix things?

While true, we got people that are buffing things that don't need buffing and people nerfing things that don't need nerfing.
In this particular case, no amount of nerfing will ever make Centurions with Heavy Bolters or Lascannons appealing. Instead, we make Grav function as intended (which I'll present in a moment) and actually buff the Heavy Bolter, which has not been appealing since I started playing in 4th edition.
Grav wounds Swarms on a 6, Infantry on a 5+, Bulky on a 4+, very bulky on a 3+, everything bigger on a 2+, stripping a HP on a 6 and D3 HP on a Super Heavy.

Simple as that.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 hippyjr wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Make the other options more potent.


Isn't that basically adding to the power creep? Surely the better option is to nerf grav RoF/graviton rule, e.g. wounds infantry on a 6+, bulky models 5+, v. bulky 4+, extremely bulky 3+, MCs/GCs 2+, vehicles same effect as now (but fewer shots per grav weapon), maybe without stripping the HPs.



it is but when you have power creep you have two options to handle it, the first is to beat stuff with a nerf stick, the second is to buff other things to compensate for it. honestly I think re grav you need a bit of both. grav is supposed to be an anti-MC weapon, it's as pwoerful as it is because well.. you need something like that to take down MCs. eaither MCs need a change, and thus gravs can be nerfed, other weapons simply need to be buffed so grav is no longer an auto-pick... or grav weapons need to be changed so that they are kings of "inflicting multiple wounds with one shot" make grav weapons "roll 1d6, inflicting 1 wound for every point above the targets armor save value you roll...." So, let's say my grav gun shoots a MC with a 2+ save, I roll 1d6, and get a 4, that 4 then deals 2 damage to the opponent. you could then make a grav gun a single shot, and a grav cannon rapid fire (better yet have the cannon roll 2d6 instead of 1d6 for wounding) and I think it;d work nicely. Plasma would likely be a more points relevant way to handle heavy infantry forces, and grav would be best used against singular MCs.

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Make grav inflict multiple wounds but only fire one shot. Then it will be anti-mc.

like D3 wounds for grav-gun, D6 for cannon.

You won't even need special chart for bulky models etc. as few models outside of mcs have multiple wounds.
   
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Italy

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Make grav inflict multiple wounds but only fire one shot. Then it will be anti-mc.

like D3 wounds for grav-gun, D6 for cannon.

You won't even need special chart for bulky models etc. as few models outside of mcs have multiple wounds.


This and the possibility of hurting vehicle removed would be fair. I totally like it.

 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
...The whole Bolter family need to be upgraded to make them worth while...


Bolters are fine if you're in a game where infantry exists. They're only bad if you're operating under the assumption that the entire game has been reduced to Monstrous Creatures, free-vehicle-spam, 100%-heavy-weapon-density jetbikes, rerollable-2+ bikestars, and superheavies.

Personally I'd rather design to a game where you can use more than a quarter of the available models/Codexes, infantry are a necessary component of the game, and Monstrous Creatures are a destructive big support tool available in limited quantities rather than the core of your army, instead of taking basic infantry weapons and pumping them up to the point where you can't actually use basic infantry because they're too easily destroyed by basic infantry weapons so you need to start pumping durability, which makes basic infantry weapons bad again, all the way until the feedback loop gives us Space Marines with the stats of Riptides, but apparently this makes me weird.


QFT

Forget about fixing grav, Centurions, scatbikes, wraithknights, riptides, etc., on an ad hoc or isolated basis.

Instead, rewrite codexes to be infantry-centric with action movie-level ICs (but not Smashfucker-level ICS). Make bog-standard Space Marines at the 70th percentile in terms of effectiveness -- only 30% at most of models on the tabletop at any time will be better in statlines/saves. Ensure synergy is vital to listbuilding, but by making combined arms key to an effective force and recasting shooting/assault to be equally necessary, instead of packing stacking buffs/rerolls/cheese into deathstars. Go back to the holy trinity of tac/devastator/assault (or the equivalents for other armies) where each has a vital role on the battlefield that can't be covered at 80% efficiency by another squad type.

Power creep is inevitable. But the cat has to be walked pretty far back or we'll be at some unbalanced meta soon after each revision.

Um...end rant?
   
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Italy

I would love this, I never liked immortal units that do the entire job alone, IMHO 70-80% of the army should be composed by average units. And the best units should not win the games alone.

Things like meganobz, thunderwolves, land raiders, stormravens, leman russ, talos, tyranids ground MCs.. should be among the best units in the game. And I think about them with the current rules. Anything that is more powerful should be nerfed very badly, and with them the chance of spamming units like those ones that I mentioned before.

Make the game more tactical and without no brainer stuff.

 
   
 
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