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I posted a question about the decision to remove these portions. My post just got deleted.

Wow. I remember getting occasionally notified that stuff I didn't think was a problem was an offense. And that was when there were parts I liked. Well, not touching those forums with a 10' pole.

Gone are the days of the overzealous mod, now some sort of wasteland ruled by an iron fist.

Agreed. my post was a respectful critic and question of concern regardimg the new forum structure. they didnt even watn me before deletion or even have the courtesy to leave it so that the community could either agree or disagree.

When Tom Kirby stepped down as GW CEO, was there any mention of taking over somewhere else?

You either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain.

It's funny how how things come full circle.

Serious discussion point: With GW improving recently I wonder how other companies such as PP will do in the coming months/years. It seemed in my area that PP really caught on as many disenfranchised GW players moved on to a better rule set. It seemed like many folks were unhappy with Mk3 and the freeloader policy and now this forum changes may not be well received either.

On the flip side I've hear a lot of people praising GW recent changes and with some older players are starting to return. I wonder if there could be a reverse migration as people who may not be satisfied with the current offerings by PP and migrate back to the new friendlier GW they first left from.

I was very excited about the upcoming Grymkin faction but I don't feel I will have a place to talk about that particular faction in one specific c place which is disappointing.

 Vermis wrote:
When Tom Kirby stepped down as GW CEO, was there any mention of taking over somewhere else?

Lol, that's exactly what I was thinking... the problem is, PP isn't GW and don't have the IP / store network / etc to bring in new players and carry sales through a period of being overtly hostile to their playerbase. A lot of their growth is driven by their community and network of volunteers... and they pretty much just spat on that whole network. It's honestly pretty shocking!

Edit: MrFlutterPie you're right, to do it now when GW has drastically softened their approach, and there are a ton of smaller games nipping at their heels, just seems crazy...

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Wow. I remember getting occasionally notified that stuff I didn't think was a problem was an offense. And that was when there were parts I liked. Well, not touching those forums with a 10' pole.

Gone are the days of the overzealous mod, now some sort of wasteland ruled by an iron fist.

Yeah, I was looking at their new guidelines and they wee just depressing. Might as well just say "You can't post anything that anyone might ever construe or misinterpret as being even remotely offensive to anyone. Or anything that we personally don't like."

Now, this would be bad enough if Warmachine didn't have the motto "Play like you got a pair". I guess 'read other posts like you got a pair' would be expecting too much of people.

I still have faith in PP that they are doing what is best for the game. However, this is a boneheaded decision. They seem to have made a few of those lately.

They should remember that the reason they are more than a footnote in history is because they were doing things right when GW was killing their forum (okay PP came after that technically), stopped retailers from selling at discounts, and pretending everything was great with the game. In about the past year and a half, PP has:

* Curbed online retailers offering heavy discounts (the "Free Rider Policy")

* Took criticism of Mk3 balance harshly with this arrogant attitude that everything was fine (#3yearsoftesting and #designspace)

* Decided to remove the key aspects of their forum due to not wanting to hear negative feedback (the forums debacle). On top of that, they seem to still have the policy against linking to third-party sites; so not only do they not have any place to discuss, and tell you to go to one of the many third-party unofficial sites, you aren't allowed to post links to any of those sites!

Now, let me state I still feel they are doing this out of a misguided thought it's the right way to encourage the game, and not like the old GW that was blatantly "We don't care, buy our stuff". But it makes for bad press and a bad taste in people's mouths, and as GW learned to their detriment if you piss off enough people, they will tell others to avoid you. GW might have enough revenue to ignore that, but I don't think PP would if it got out of hand (note: I don't think it will, I'm being hypothetical). However, they still seem devoted to the game and improving it, and so I feel they are still on the right track, even if they are making some bad decisions.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

They might as well have got rid of them entirely. There are no places to post anything remotely resembling a discussion.

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
With GW improving recently I wonder how other companies such as PP will do in the coming months/years.

Yeah... I was definitely one of that early wave burning out on GW and flocking to PP. And, after years away, I'm not in whole-hog, but I'm cheerfully painting Marines, and their board game line has been pretty good. Not, like super-exciting, but a decent chunk of my trades and gaming budget are getting converted to GW for the first time in a decade-plus.

Wayniac wrote:
He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

Nice

Spiralingcadaver, I'm the same. Recently picked up a 30k army and am extremely interested in Adeltus Titanicus.

I'll still play Casualmachine with my friend, but definitely won't be as into the game/world with the way they're headed now, and have been for the last few years - but this is really a scorched earth move!

Sad day. There is little reason to visit the main forum now what with the lack of faction forums and a general discussion. They really do want everything to go off site.

http://lormahordes.freeforums.net/

community led new discussions. not mine. just got it from a poster in the PP forums asking about legalities of 3rd party forums.

Don't You Dare Post Like You've Got A Pair!

I'm a fan of forums - not sure if PP is, or really wants to be hosting one!

Wayniac wrote:
I still have faith in PP that they are doing what is best for the game. However, this is a boneheaded decision. They seem to have made a few of those lately.

They should remember that the reason they are more than a footnote in history is because they were doing things right when GW was killing their forum (okay PP came after that technically), stopped retailers from selling at discounts, and pretending everything was great with the game. In about the past year and a half, PP has:

* Curbed online retailers offering heavy discounts (the "Free Rider Policy")

* Took criticism of Mk3 balance harshly with this arrogant attitude that everything was fine (#3yearsoftesting and #designspace)

* Decided to remove the key aspects of their forum due to not wanting to hear negative feedback (the forums debacle). On top of that, they seem to still have the policy against linking to third-party sites; so not only do they not have any place to discuss, and tell you to go to one of the many third-party unofficial sites, you aren't allowed to post links to any of those sites!

Now, let me state I still feel they are doing this out of a misguided thought it's the right way to encourage the game, and not like the old GW that was blatantly "We don't care, buy our stuff". But it makes for bad press and a bad taste in people's mouths, and as GW learned to their detriment if you piss off enough people, they will tell others to avoid you. GW might have enough revenue to ignore that, but I don't think PP would if it got out of hand (note: I don't think it will, I'm being hypothetical). However, they still seem devoted to the game and improving it, and so I feel they are still on the right track, even if they are making some bad decisions.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

Finally, someone else who noticed the similarities! PP has been acting in the past two years almost identically to GW from five to six years ago, but the elitist attitude of some fans wouldn't see the comparisons!

This sucks though. While I have more criticisms about Warmahordes and PP now than I did before getting into the game a couple years back, I don't like to see a company make poor decisions and withdraw into their own little hole. But GW did that, and they turned themselves around after a couple years. With any luck, PP will swing back from this, and hopefully in less time.

GW needs competition to keep them on their toes, and PP is the next biggest competitor in the market of miniature wargames companies (by my estimates) that makes rules, fluff, and un-painted & un-assembled miniatures in various factions.

Oh well. I wish PP the best of luck. Maybe this purge/cleanse will get the "play like you've got a pair" mentality out of the game (I never cared for that).

To be fair, I think that was more along the lines of "Play Aggressively, Don't Waste Time, Go Kill That Caster!" and not "Act like a Complete Douchebag and Curbstomp Newbies!" though...

Which is true.

War machine doesn't have defensive stats like warhammer does. Getting hit first does you no favours.

It took GW way more than a couple years to adjust their trajectory! It's awesome now that they have, but that was a long road (really, it took the stock finally stalling and getting rid of Kirby to change direction). I don't think PP can afford to take that long, though...

 Alpharius wrote:
To be fair, I think that was more along the lines of "Play Aggressively, Don't Waste Time, Go Kill That Caster!" and not "Act like a Complete Douchebag and Curbstomp Newbies!" though...

Then they take away a huge resource for newbies to gain insight from vets.

 RiTides wrote:
It took GW way more than a couple years to adjust their trajectory! It's awesome now that they have, but that was a long road (really, it took the stock finally stalling and getting rid of Kirby to change direction). I don't think PP can afford to take that long, though...

Right. GW started some of that like 15 years ago (the forums, I remember the GW forums and when it closed, and it was like the very early 2000s). The online policy was somewhere around there as well. So GW operated for probably at least 10 years with that move and only recently decided to turn around. If PP were to take that long, I think they'd collapse long before it. That's what sort of hurts me about these decisions, starting with the end of Mk2: It's very ominously like what GW did, when PP made its name on being the anti-GW (even to the point, which they long since went back on, of being 100% "heavy metal" without using "cheap" plastic). So it's worrisome to see the similarities, although again I feel that they have the best interest of the game and for that I'm at least hopeful that this isn't an arrogant GW-esque attitude but perhaps a misguided attempt at controlling the game better. Given this is PP and not GW, who historically have cared about their game even if they make some bad decisions, I'm remaining hopefully optimistic and putting trust in them to do the right things in the end, even if right now we are all bitter over the loss of the faction/general forums.

For those who like the various quotes I use to refer to the similarities, here is another:

Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana

I think they dont' want to really run forums. They want a way to interact with players, but they're not interested in creating a space for players to really interact with each other.

I think that's a good thing, in the long run. Official forums reflect the company, and as the company grows, they probably want more constructive positivity, and less toxic flaming. Instead of trying to figure out that balance, I think they want to encourage the growth of new discussion venues, and get out of that business.

In some ways, it's like when there's a kickstarter with a small company (or even just an individual) and they include US shipping, with huge international shipping. Are they going to come out and say "no international backers, please?" No, because that's a dumb thing to say, and appearances matter. Still, that's a pretty clear message that only those international backers that are true believers should bother, because there's no deals to be had.

The problem is, PP's rules are complicated enough that without faction forums to explain how the basics of a faction work to newer players, there's going to be a Lot of misplayed rules... not to mention that comparing lists/tactics was a big part of the fun for many players.

Echoes of GW and WHFB are pretty strong here, too, the reception of which ironically seemed to be one of the things that finally got GW to change direction. But PP doesn't have the strength of GW, and aren't adding anything to replace what they're taking away...

I could have sworn that the Privateer Press forums had a 'No petitions' policy during MkI.
If that had been brought back, and applied to all of the nerf request threads, what threads would have been left in the general discussion forum?

The internet is a big place. I'm sure the faction talk will move elsewhere. I am surprised the online store thread has gone since that was pretty useful.

I was slightly surprised by the way that PP released V3, especially compared to the way it released V2 with its beta test and feedback. Having to rewrite one (or more) faction(s) since has maybe shown PP that they needed to be more cautious.

Battlefront lately also seem to have caught 'GW-itis' with their V4 release. We've yet to see how that pans out.

Up until the big change I was checking the faction forums many times a day; sometimes it was the first thing I did after waking up in the morning (I might have had a problem...). I'm very sad to see them go, and annoyed with PP for how they are handling this.

I'd love it if a single forum gained the userbase from the old ones; I think the problem right now is people aren't sure where to go, and so we've fragmented. This probably wouldn't have been such a problem if PP gave people more time to figure out where the new hub would be and told people for certain that the faction forums would be gone, but they simple gave a rather vague statement about changes and refused to answer any questions, so people weren't sure if the faction forums were going away or not and only had a couple of days to deal with it.

I'm on the Tabletop Gaming Forum, but it's pretty much completely dead so far. I'll try the Lormahordes forum, it looks promising. Of course I would love it if Dakka added faction forums; I don't suppose anyone knows if that's a realistic possibility or if there's a way to "petition" it or something?

Soul Samurai wrote:
Up until the big change I was checking the faction forums many times a day; sometimes it was the first thing I did after waking up in the morning (I might have had a problem...). I'm very sad to see them go, and annoyed with PP for how they are handling this.

I'd love it if a single forum gained the userbase from the old ones; I think the problem right now is people aren't sure where to go, and so we've fragmented. This probably wouldn't have been such a problem if PP gave people more time to figure out where the new hub would be and told people for certain that the faction forums would be gone, but they simple gave a rather vague statement about changes and refused to answer any questions, so people weren't sure if the faction forums were going away or not and only had a couple of days to deal with it.

I'm on the Tabletop Gaming Forum, but it's pretty much completely dead so far. I'll try the Lormahordes forum, it looks promising. Of course I would love it if Dakka added faction forums; I don't suppose anyone knows if that's a realistic possibility or if there's a way to "petition" it or something?

Well maybe if PP had given us MORE THAN A FETHING FEW DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the proper information on HOW THE FACTION FORUMS AND GENERAL DISCUSSION FORUM (and seemingly general discussion in general) WERE GOING TO BE PURGED FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH! then maybe we could have had more time to gather the troops in one place. Reddit seems to have caught a lot of them (I even signed up too) and hopefully one of the newer ones will rise up and take the place of the old forums. Rather than having to go several different places just to have a decent discussion.

If it was just about reducing the toxicity of the environment, one might think PP could simply have kept the forum, instate these stricter rules and allow Mods to wield their ban-hammers rather freely.

It looks rather obvious that PP simply don't want fan-interaction to be hosted under their own umbrella at all.

I think the faction based forums are an absolute must have in a world of about ten factions to interact and compete.
When posting an army list or some sort of rule or tactical question related to a specific faction, one needs dedicated answers from ''experts' of the faction and not would-be answers like ''I don't play this faction, but ...''.

 welshhoppo wrote:

Soul Samurai wrote:
Up until the big change I was checking the faction forums many times a day; sometimes it was the first thing I did after waking up in the morning (I might have had a problem...). I'm very sad to see them go, and annoyed with PP for how they are handling this.

I'd love it if a single forum gained the userbase from the old ones; I think the problem right now is people aren't sure where to go, and so we've fragmented. This probably wouldn't have been such a problem if PP gave people more time to figure out where the new hub would be and told people for certain that the faction forums would be gone, but they simple gave a rather vague statement about changes and refused to answer any questions, so people weren't sure if the faction forums were going away or not and only had a couple of days to deal with it.

I'm on the Tabletop Gaming Forum, but it's pretty much completely dead so far. I'll try the Lormahordes forum, it looks promising. Of course I would love it if Dakka added faction forums; I don't suppose anyone knows if that's a realistic possibility or if there's a way to "petition" it or something?

Well maybe if PP had given us MORE THAN A FETHING FEW DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the proper information on HOW THE FACTION FORUMS AND GENERAL DISCUSSION FORUM (and seemingly general discussion in general) WERE GOING TO BE PURGED FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH! then maybe we could have had more time to gather the troops in one place. Reddit seems to have caught a lot of them (I even signed up too) and hopefully one of the newer ones will rise up and take the place of the old forums. Rather than having to go several different places just to have a decent discussion.

Yeah... after the announcement there were a few threads about where to go if the forum was removed which I dismissed as doomsaying. Seems the doom sayers were right though - the Forums as a place to discuss the game and community happenings (Modelling stuff is still there) are essentially gone. Dick move, especially as the announcement made it sound like the forums were changing, not being gutted. A heads up would not have gone astray.

I suppose it is what it is, but after bringing about a lot of positive changes just in the last few months that showed a real responsiveness to and care for their player base, to see this sort of move is very disappointing.

Personally, I'm not all that bothered. In my experience, very little discussion or progress of any real value occurred on the forums. And what little was there was often overshadowed by a massive amount of toxicity, nastiness and bad natured vitriol. They were a hive of group think, echo chambers and list-by-rote, with very little creativity in terms of 'how' to play, and little appreciation for alternative viewpoints.

No, I didn't like them. They were more trouble than they were worth. In my experience, all they did was stifle players own creativity. A lot of the top players I know also felt the same, in that the best approach towards the forums was to avoid them completely.

CID forums look interesting. Need to dig into the grymkin a bit more.