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Or even 40....

They'd have to be densely packed (not necessarily a bad thing in AoS due to lack of templates of any kind), and likely surrounded, or in a big ol' conga line that's just pulled off a multiple charge right across it's length.

 NpSkully wrote:
Also, quick question: is there any more confirmation on the subject of square bases for 40k? My local GW manager posted through the GW Facebook page that he was excited for the base changes I am wondering if that is something that should have more attention payed to it.

That was most definitely a joke, along with throwing a drop pod and movement trays with wheels.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or even 40....

They'd have to be densely packed (not necessarily a bad thing in AoS due to lack of templates of any kind), and likely surrounded, or in a big ol' conga line that's just pulled off a multiple charge right across it's length.

I mean, there's no templates but there are still attacks where you target units or points on the board and just lay down Mortal Wounds.

Thebiggesthat wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Age of the Emperor oh tra-la-la!

The New GW is brilliant and dynamic... they understand 40k really, really sucks and needs a total revamp.

They're also business-savvy...

1. 40k is about to get a giant influx of it's old-guard players who left after 4th/5th edition. All the old grognards like myself who started with RT and 2nd are about to invest our late-30's/early-40's income into GW again! I've spent more money on Age of Sigmar in the last 18 months that I had on GW product since 2005, and GW will get a few thousand dollars from me when Age of the Emperor/40k 8th drops.

2. none of the current 40k players will do much other than complain to the internet, but will dutifully buy the next edition just like they did when 7th came out a few minutes after 6th did.

I'm so, so happy to see GW return to the GW I fell in love with in the mid 90's.

Amen

Amen x2!

 Elbows wrote:
Colour me semi-hopeful.

I've stated, several times, that there is little to nothing GW could do to make me generally consider playing "current" 40K again (I have a huge painted army, etc. but I currently play 2nd ed.).

At a glance (PROS)
+Movement Stat. Great, should never have been removed.
+Armour Save modifiers. Great, far better than all or nothing.

(CONS)
-"Bespoke rules"...eh. Bespoke stat lines are fine, but I don't think we should trade hundreds of special rules for special rules allocated to each unit. The vast majority of infantry units shouldn't have special rules - their abilities should be indicated by their equipment and a stat line. While 2nd had plenty of special rules, the vast majority of your infantry models did not (unless it was wargear related). Keep the genuine special rules to characters and monsters/creatures etc.
-The hinted at Morale stuff = meh.

All in all, two large steps in the right direction and I like the idea of thematic armies (actually don't care for the idea of bonuses though). Will continue to play 2nd until 8th is out --- but it may be the first time since 4th ed. that I take a swing at current 40K.

I have very fond memories of Heroscape which AOS does seem to follow in some regards - that went for very basic rules and special rules for each unit - and I thought it did it brilliantly.

A very underestimated system.

The New GW is brilliant and dynamic... they understand 40k really, really sucks and needs a total revamp.

They're also business-savvy...

1. 40k is about to get a giant influx of it's old-guard players who left after 4th/5th edition. All the old grognards like myself who started with RT and 2nd are about to invest our late-30's/early-40's income into GW again! I've spent more money on Age of Sigmar in the last 18 months that I had on GW product since 2005, and GW will get a few thousand dollars from me when Age of the Emperor/40k 8th drops.

Some very good points.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or even 40....

They'd have to be densely packed (not necessarily a bad thing in AoS due to lack of templates of any kind), and likely surrounded, or in a big ol' conga line that's just pulled off a multiple charge right across it's length.

I mean, there's no templates but there are still attacks where you target units or points on the board and just lay down Mortal Wounds.

Sure, but they're typically D3 wounds and in the hero phase. Good at plinking down high value targets, but not unit wipers in their own right.

 ncshooter426 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or even 40....

They'd have to be densely packed (not necessarily a bad thing in AoS due to lack of templates of any kind), and likely surrounded, or in a big ol' conga line that's just pulled off a multiple charge right across it's length.

I mean, there's no templates but there are still attacks where you target units or points on the board and just lay down Mortal Wounds.

Sure, but they're typically D3 wounds and in the hero phase. Good at plinking down high value targets, but not unit wipers in their own right.

Right. Not saying they were. Just commenting that templates don't exist in AoS, but you're still getting some massed Wounds and the like.

That they're announcing these sorts of things, to me would indicate that 8th edition will arrive very soon. News of big changes like these will depress the sales as people are not sure what things are usable/good in the new edition and thus won't buy anything until they know.

 Crimson wrote:
That they're announcing these sorts of things, to me would indicate that 8th edition will arrive very soon. News of big changes like these will depress the sales as people are not sure what things are usable/good in the new edition and thus won't buy anything until they know.

I doubt it. Considering they're saying they're testing or considering including certain things says to me they're still experimenting. This whole thing seems like a beta test to see what peoples reactions will be. I'd guesstimate another year or so before anything solid is seen.

 Crimson wrote:
That they're announcing these sorts of things, to me would indicate that 8th edition will arrive very soon. News of big changes like these will depress the sales as people are not sure what things are usable/good in the new edition and thus won't buy anything until they know.

Well they said that these new rules 'might' be out in time for Adepticon next year so to me it says that they haven't decided on this year or not. Or it says that 8th may have a community trial phase before it goes to print.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 ncshooter426 wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Can we move away from the assumption that AoS was an improvement to the Fantasy ruleset? I watched a game of AoS where one unit had 240 attacks per round; can you really argue that this is indicative of a strong game system? It.

Which unit has 240 attacks? At 40 man strong, that would have to be 6 attacks per model...

Skeletons with Danse Macabre I believe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euoum_IOjAs

Just fast forwarded through that video. They were completely ignoring weapon ranges. Any game system can be bad if you leave out fundamental rules. A lot of the hatred of AOS unfortunately comes from ignorance of how the game is played. If you are a 40k player why not try out some of these rules and give feedback to GW before dumping the game entirely?

I'm quite happy with mos tof what they announced for 8th, depending on how it's implemented. The Movement stat returning is huge, so much of what bogs down the unit types and forces masses of units in the game to rely on a ream of special rules to get around the restrictions so they can actually be used in some kind of meaningful way can be done away with. Armour Save modifiers are great in theory, but like I said it'll generally depend on how well it's implemented, too much access to large modifiers makes armour as pointless as it can be in many cases now with the all or nothing system.

Battleshock's the questionable one, it works fine in Sigmar but you have huge squads and ways to boost your Bravery to 12+ quite easily, porting it to 40K with it's MSU style will require some adjustment. Overall it's no better or worse than what we currently have, the biggest problem is having whole swathes of armies that can completely ignore moral, breaking the system.

"We think the Move value should come back. No more default unit types. Every model should have cool bespoke rules. Not only would that be more fun, but it’ll mean you will only need to learn the rules for your models."

For me, this on the Community site very strongly suggests that all current codexes are going to be invalidated with 8th. I hope they move to the Sigmar style of free dataslates with army specific books giving out the fluff and paid for formations/relics/psychic powers, but whatever they do I can't see the current codexes and supplements remaining in use, the scale of any errata needed to make them compatible would be so big it makes starting from scratch a better option.

If they went to soft cover and dropped prices by at least 30%, I would be actually happy with free unit rules and paying for fluff and extra extra stuff.

Chikout wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 ncshooter426 wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Can we move away from the assumption that AoS was an improvement to the Fantasy ruleset? I watched a game of AoS where one unit had 240 attacks per round; can you really argue that this is indicative of a strong game system? It.

Which unit has 240 attacks? At 40 man strong, that would have to be 6 attacks per model...

Skeletons with Danse Macabre I believe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euoum_IOjAs

Just fast forwarded through that video. They were completely ignoring weapon ranges. Any game system can be bad if you leave out fundamental rules.

I was about to post the same, thanks for posting your source but your source is awful, they just weren't doing it right lol. If you hate the game thats fine i dislike lots of games ive tried but it needs to be played correctly and importantly with people youd like to play with. Ive gone from playing fantasy and 40k maybe once a month to playing aos couple of times a week, it needs to be played to be enjoyed and to be learned to see its depth and possibility. At the moment all i know for sure is 40k has to change and im trusting in Nu'GW to make that change.

Enjoy.

You will find it especially enlightening if you read the Chapter Organisation and Post heresy Chapter Combat Doctrine.

Read that before you go accusing people, mkay?

If it brings 40k back to a "Beer & Pretzels" game like AoS has appeared to do... bring it on.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 ncshooter426 wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Can we move away from the assumption that AoS was an improvement to the Fantasy ruleset? I watched a game of AoS where one unit had 240 attacks per round; can you really argue that this is indicative of a strong game system? It.

Which unit has 240 attacks? At 40 man strong, that would have to be 6 attacks per model...

Skeletons with Danse Macabre I believe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euoum_IOjAs

Unlike a strong, lean game system like 40k, where nothing can even get close to that kind of

wait, how many attacks does an ork green tide get?

Thebiggesthat wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Age of the Emperor oh tra-la-la!

The New GW is brilliant and dynamic... they understand 40k really, really sucks and needs a total revamp.

They're also business-savvy...

1. 40k is about to get a giant influx of it's old-guard players who left after 4th/5th edition. All the old grognards like myself who started with RT and 2nd are about to invest our late-30's/early-40's income into GW again! I've spent more money on Age of Sigmar in the last 18 months that I had on GW product since 2005, and GW will get a few thousand dollars from me when Age of the Emperor/40k 8th drops.

2. none of the current 40k players will do much other than complain to the internet, but will dutifully buy the next edition just like they did when 7th came out a few minutes after 6th did.

I'm so, so happy to see GW return to the GW I fell in love with in the mid 90's.

Amen

1.Hey if you think bringing back a few neckbeards having there midlife crisis will offset people leaving I think your anecdote is extra anacdotal. Besides most people who left after 5th are likely to find AoS a little to simple, streamlined is great so simple that it is barely able to be called a game not so much.

2. Yeah that assumption worked out really well for AoS a game which has took 2 years to get back to the point it's failing predecessor was at when axed. Yeah some lessons have been learned hence 40k will start from the point of the generals handbook but my anacdotal evidence suggests if 40k goes full AoS(Never go full AoS man) then the only GW game played in my area will be 30k.

the_scotsman wrote:

Unlike a strong, lean game system like 40k, where nothing can even get close to that kind of

wait, how many attacks does an ork green tide get?

You realise that there are other games not produced by GW, right? With much, much better rulesets? In no way was I suggesting 40k should be the benchmark.

SeanDrake wrote:

Thebiggesthat wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Age of the Emperor oh tra-la-la!

The New GW is brilliant and dynamic... they understand 40k really, really sucks and needs a total revamp.

They're also business-savvy...

1. 40k is about to get a giant influx of it's old-guard players who left after 4th/5th edition. All the old grognards like myself who started with RT and 2nd are about to invest our late-30's/early-40's income into GW again! I've spent more money on Age of Sigmar in the last 18 months that I had on GW product since 2005, and GW will get a few thousand dollars from me when Age of the Emperor/40k 8th drops.

2. none of the current 40k players will do much other than complain to the internet, but will dutifully buy the next edition just like they did when 7th came out a few minutes after 6th did.

I'm so, so happy to see GW return to the GW I fell in love with in the mid 90's.

Amen

1.Hey if you think bringing back a few neckbeards having there midlife crisis will offset people leaving I think your anecdote is extra anacdotal. Besides most people who left after 5th are likely to find AoS a little to simple, streamlined is great so simple that it is barely able to be called a game not so much.

2. Yeah that assumption worked out really well for AoS a game which has took 2 years to get back to the point it's failing predecessor was at when axed. Yeah some lessons have been learned hence 40k will start from the point of the generals handbook but my anacdotal evidence suggests if 40k goes full AoS(Never go full AoS man) then the only GW game played in my area will be 30k.

1.You make it sound like 40k is a complex game which it isn't. It's a confusing bloated mess which is entirely different. 40k has never been very deep lol. That fact that you throw around insults and act as though it were is telling.

2. Data required, from everything I have heard AoS is WAY more successful then Fantasy and is only growing.

SeanDrake wrote:

Thebiggesthat wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Age of the Emperor oh tra-la-la!

The New GW is brilliant and dynamic... they understand 40k really, really sucks and needs a total revamp.

They're also business-savvy...

1. 40k is about to get a giant influx of it's old-guard players who left after 4th/5th edition. All the old grognards like myself who started with RT and 2nd are about to invest our late-30's/early-40's income into GW again! I've spent more money on Age of Sigmar in the last 18 months that I had on GW product since 2005, and GW will get a few thousand dollars from me when Age of the Emperor/40k 8th drops.

2. none of the current 40k players will do much other than complain to the internet, but will dutifully buy the next edition just like they did when 7th came out a few minutes after 6th did.

I'm so, so happy to see GW return to the GW I fell in love with in the mid 90's.

Amen

1.Hey if you think bringing back a few neckbeards having there midlife crisis will offset people leaving I think your anecdote is extra anacdotal. Besides most people who left after 5th are likely to find AoS a little to simple, streamlined is great so simple that it is barely able to be called a game not so much.

2. Yeah that assumption worked out really well for AoS a game which has took 2 years to get back to the point it's failing predecessor was at when axed. Yeah some lessons have been learned hence 40k will start from the point of the generals handbook but my anacdotal evidence suggests if 40k goes full AoS(Never go full AoS man) then the only GW game played in my area will be 30k.

Wow master troll here everybody Go do something else if you dislike it that much. Frankly, this is the first time 40k has sounded anything close to playable in years.

SeanDrake wrote:
[

2. Yeah that assumption worked out really well for AoS a game which has took 2 years to get back to the point it's failing predecessor was at when axed. Yeah some lessons have been learned hence 40k will start from the point of the generals handbook but my anacdotal evidence suggests if 40k goes full AoS(Never go full AoS man) then the only GW game played in my area will be 30k.

AoS has done better than FB ever did. Even at launch, after the initial wave of salt, I saw more people actually having fun with it than I ever saw in FB. GH came out, and suddenly it was everywhere.. AoS' sales account for more at my location than 40K, and player base.

So yeah, I can't fathom how "going full AoS" is a bad thing, but you are welcome to stick with 30K.

SeanDrake wrote:
1.Hey if you think bringing back a few neckbeards having there midlife crisis will offset people leaving I think your anecdote is extra anacdotal. Besides most people who left after 5th are likely to find AoS a little to simple, streamlined is great so simple that it is barely able to be called a game not so much.

2. Yeah that assumption worked out really well for AoS a game which has took 2 years to get back to the point it's failing predecessor was at when axed. Yeah some lessons have been learned hence 40k will start from the point of the generals handbook but my anacdotal evidence suggests if 40k goes full AoS(Never go full AoS man) then the only GW game played in my area will be 30k.

1. Making 40k, which is an inelegant, horribly broken, poorly written and designed ruleset, actually playable? Sorry, hombre, 40k has never really been a _good_ game, from Rogue Trader on up. Even at it's finest, it was entirely mediocre, still comprised of various cobbled together mechanics stolen from other systems. Cross-referencing charts, sometimes rolling dice higher, sometimes rolling dice under, sometimes rolling multiple dice and adding them together. Terrible. This complete overhaul is 15 years late, but definitely needed.

And no one will "leave". 40k is a bad ruleset. If there was to be a mass exodus, it would have already happened. Nearly anything is an improvement at this point.

2. Yes, you are allowed to play any edition of 40k that you want. Thankfully all new 40k stuff with be in this new, and almost certainly better, ruleset

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Unlike a strong, lean game system like 40k, where nothing can even get close to that kind of

wait, how many attacks does an ork green tide get?

You realise that there are other games not produced by GW, right? With much, much better rulesets? In no way was I suggesting 40k should be the benchmark.

I think any chance you had at establishing authority went out the window with this crowd. Better to just let it go.

 ncshooter426 wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
[

2. Yeah that assumption worked out really well for AoS a game which has took 2 years to get back to the point it's failing predecessor was at when axed. Yeah some lessons have been learned hence 40k will start from the point of the generals handbook but my anacdotal evidence suggests if 40k goes full AoS(Never go full AoS man) then the only GW game played in my area will be 30k.

AoS has done better than FB ever did. Even at launch, after the initial wave of salt, I saw more people actually having fun with it than I ever saw in FB. GH came out, and suddenly it was everywhere.. AoS' sales account for more at my location than 40K, and player base.

So yeah, I can't fathom how "going full AoS" is a bad thing, but you are welcome to stick with 30K.

My own anecdotal evidence is that no-one plays it at my club, and never would. Very little GW played there at all, actually - a little BloodBowl maybe. Would take a lot to tempt them back to 40k and AoSing it ain't gonna do it.

tneva82 wrote:
Did you ever play 2nd ed? I still play. I know exactly how useful power armour is in 2nd ed. It's to the level that only reason space marines take it because they HAVE TO. If space marines could ditch all armour and run naked for cheaper price THEY WOULD DO IT! And in a heartbeat. Extra guys are better than armour save which you often can't use or is like 5+ or 6+.

Nevermind something like 5+ save or 6+ save which is even worse than in 7th ed.

Only armour worth paying anything in 2nd ed is terminator armour. Power armour MAYBE if it's 1 pts but if you could run tactical marine naked for 25 pts rather than 30 pts guess what? Naked it is.

I played 2nd and used virus grenades. If you didn't have enclosed armour, I could wipe your entire army in turn one. It was awful. :/

Messiah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Did you ever play 2nd ed? I still play. I know exactly how useful power armour is in 2nd ed. It's to the level that only reason space marines take it because they HAVE TO. If space marines could ditch all armour and run naked for cheaper price THEY WOULD DO IT! And in a heartbeat. Extra guys are better than armour save which you often can't use or is like 5+ or 6+.

Nevermind something like 5+ save or 6+ save which is even worse than in 7th ed.

Only armour worth paying anything in 2nd ed is terminator armour. Power armour MAYBE if it's 1 pts but if you could run tactical marine naked for 25 pts rather than 30 pts guess what? Naked it is.

I played 2nd and used virus grenades. If you didn't have enclosed armour, I could wipe your entire army in turn one. It was awful. :/

Plus Power Armor had photochromatic visors! Gosh, space marines were immune to basically all in-game stuff... virus grenades, flash and stun grenades.
Don't forget that if a Conversion field saved a hit, it would blind all models within range, reducing WS to 1!
Space Marines in powered armor with a few well placed characters with conversion fields could pretty much utterly destroy any army that didn't have visors

Ok, So positives regarding rumoured rules changes:

-Movement stat is back. Great, they've needed this for years. Tyranids might be able to see combat.
-Rending System for weapons. We haven't seen exactly how this will be implemented but it has potential. Better than the AP system anyway.
-Rewarding fluffy armies, cool.

I am however concerned about leadership. I like how units break and get run down, this was my favourite part about fantasy. I don't particularly like how AOS deals with bravery, but it's not my biggest gripe regarding the system so I can live with it. I just hope they don't eliminate things like pinning and fear, but instead make pinning and fear better.

I hope they implement the monstrous creature rules from AoS and how they degrade after taking damage.

There are however some big questions regarding the rules that will probably make or break the game for me.

-Attachment of HQ's to units. I don't see them removing this considering you have transports in the game, and things need to get transported. However, if they don't allow attached characters I will not play this game.
-Random Turn Sequence. If they add that stupid fething rule I'm out.
-Shooting into combat...just no

I seriously hope they don't remove all the relics and psychic powers, allow measurements from the model instead of the base, or implement the Psychic system from AoS.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 ncshooter426 wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
[

2. Yeah that assumption worked out really well for AoS a game which has took 2 years to get back to the point it's failing predecessor was at when axed. Yeah some lessons have been learned hence 40k will start from the point of the generals handbook but my anacdotal evidence suggests if 40k goes full AoS(Never go full AoS man) then the only GW game played in my area will be 30k.

AoS has done better than FB ever did. Even at launch, after the initial wave of salt, I saw more people actually having fun with it than I ever saw in FB. GH came out, and suddenly it was everywhere.. AoS' sales account for more at my location than 40K, and player base.

So yeah, I can't fathom how "going full AoS" is a bad thing, but you are welcome to stick with 30K.

My own anecdotal evidence is that no-one plays it at my club, and never would. Very little GW played there at all, actually - a little BloodBowl maybe. Would take a lot to tempt them back to 40k and AoSing it ain't gonna do it.

Then in all honesty how can you make an informed opinion about AOS or beggars the question why even take part in a thread about the direction of 40k?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Ok, So positives regarding rumoured rules changes:

-Movement stat is back. Great, they've needed this for years. Tyranids might be able to see combat.
-Rending System for weapons. We haven't seen exactly how this will be implemented but it has potential. Better than the AP system anyway.
-Rewarding fluffy armies, cool.

I am however concerned about leadership. I like how units break and get run down, this was my favourite part about fantasy. I don't particularly like how AOS deals with bravery, but it's not my biggest gripe regarding the system so I can live with it. I just hope they don't eliminate things like pinning and fear, but instead make pinning and fear better.

I hope they implement the monstrous creature rules from AoS and how they degrade after taking damage.

There are however some big questions regarding the rules that will probably make or break the game for me.

-Attachment of HQ's to units. I don't see them removing this considering you have transports in the game, and things need to get transported. However, if they don't allow attached characters I will not play this game.
-Random Turn Sequence. If they add that stupid fething rule I'm out.
-Shooting into combat...just no

I seriously hope they don't remove all the relics and psychic powers, allow measurements from the model instead of the base, or implement the Psychic system from AoS.

If look out sir stays or became stronger shooting at a non attached characters would just be a waste of fire power so it shouldnt be a deal breaker. IMO Ignoring bases was only done due to changing base shape and at some point we will see aos return to measuring base to base. Firing into combat is fine as long as they rule in friendly fire to balance it out. Personally id like to see alt activation to move away from alpha strike issues entirly but you go i go turns vs random turns both stuck a little currently.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
That they're announcing these sorts of things, to me would indicate that 8th edition will arrive very soon. News of big changes like these will depress the sales as people are not sure what things are usable/good in the new edition and thus won't buy anything until they know.

Well they said that these new rules 'might' be out in time for Adepticon next year so to me it says that they haven't decided on this year or not. Or it says that 8th may have a community trial phase before it goes to print.

Given June/July has been the release date for new editions for quite a while now, it's going to be this year. I recall September/October being an edition release period a while ago though, but would still be this year. I do not remember there ever being an edition release ever being released in winter or spring.