Switch Theme:

GW Adepticon 2017 Studio Preview-8th edition rumors (p31)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






 Mymearan wrote:
Vorian wrote:
Not particularly, it just uses different mechanics to distribute damage.



Yep. But people who hate AoS refuse to recognise that fixed To Hit and To Wound in combination with rend and high Wound counts promotes tactical use of units just as much as 40k. I haven't seen an explanation for why it wouldn't beyond stuff like street samurai's post ("it's stupid").


I say this as a huge fan of AoS, but there is one legitimate criticism of flat stats for 40k. In theory it would let a lasgun stand a chance of damaging a landraider. But, there's bound to be ways around it.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 RyanAvx wrote:

There's nothing tactical about asking your opponent for his Toughness though

No, but there is about different weapons being effective versus different targets.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






And if you want to keep the complexity and the tactical aspects of the game with fixed to hit rolls, you have to introduce weapons that do multiple wounds, so you're not simplifying anything at the end of the day

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 19:39:36


lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Grav D and Str 6-7 with a million shots already buried that element.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 streetsamurai wrote:
And if you want to keep the complexity and the tactical aspects of the game with fixed to hit rolls, you have to introduce weapons that do multiple wounds, so you're not simplifying anything at the end of the day


That's still pretty simple.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






yeah, but it is not simpler that having variable to wound rolls, and variable to wound rolls has the advantage of making some weapon completely useless against some type of units (which is a plus imo). So it's only a detrimental change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 19:42:25


lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Given that none of the rumours so far have actually suggested fixed hit rolls are being introduced to 40k, that's probably a discussion for elsewhere, at least until there is more information released on the rules changes that make it an actual likelihood.

 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





Even as a fan of AoS fixed to wound rules I would have a bit of pause if it was directly ported to 40k wholesale.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




There's absolutely nothing more tactical. That's a nonsense.

Replacing compared strength and toughness with a flat to wound roll and more wounds and damaged caused is equally (or more) tactical.

What you're conflating is the idea that they abandon the parallel Armour/penetrating/glancing system. Which they've said nothing about.

If you're (obviously self evident) criticism is that if that's done badly it'll be bad.. then... yeah? Sure. Bit why Paine this with no evidence?
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

 Crimson wrote:
 RyanAvx wrote:

There's nothing tactical about asking your opponent for his Toughness though

No, but there is about different weapons being effective versus different targets.


But that would still be true whether you cross reference two different stats on a table or use the Age of Sigmar "fixed" values. You're saying that the specific dice mechanic that is used to make different weapons more effective versus different targets is reason enough to stop playing the game.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






That's actually a good point, since there's thankfully absolutely no indication that they are bringing this absurdity in 40k


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vorian wrote:
There's absolutely nothing more tactical. That's a nonsense.

Replacing compared strength and toughness with a flat to wound roll and more wounds and damaged caused is equally (or more) tactical.

What you're conflating is the idea that they abandon the parallel Armour/penetrating/glancing system. Which they've said nothing about.

If you're (obviously self evident) criticism is that if that's done badly it'll be bad.. then... yeah? Sure. Bit why Paine this with no evidence?


No, A monstrous creature like a wraitknight should not be able to get wounded by a human with a knife. So even if they let the AV system in place, it still would be bad. And also, fixed to wound rolls are never more tacticals than variable ones, or at least, I'd like to see an arguement why they are.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/03/23 19:47:47


lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Eldarain wrote:
Grav D and Str 6-7 with a million shots already buried that element.

Grav rules are horrible and should be fixed. Other two are problem with proliferation, not the rules themselves. Though vehicle rules are also horrible and a part of reason why mid-strength high rate of fire weapons are ludicrously effective.

   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





UK

Hang on if the attackers fight first, perhaps this might be a new lease of life for power fists!

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






I guess PF will still be ASL. Even on the charge. They'll probably be op otherwise

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 19:50:14


lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S

Suddenly, WS5 on a lord commissar also becomes a whole lot more useful.



Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

 Crimson wrote:
 RyanAvx wrote:

There's nothing tactical about asking your opponent for his Toughness though

No, but there is about different weapons being effective versus different targets.


And trust me, a weapong with rend - and damage one will be far mor effective if it has, say, a 50% of killing a one-wound model than trying to get a 13% of doing 1 wound of out 15.
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Prowler






 RyanAvx wrote:


Armour modifier is basically AoS Rend, AP and STR will probably be going out the window and replaced with Rend. I think at the minute people are trying to fit the new rule rumours to existing statlines but everyone is probably getting an AoS style revamp.

*edit* insaniak posted while I was writing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 20:17:10


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 Latro_ wrote:
Hang on if the attackers fight first, perhaps this might be a new lease of life for power fists!

Unwieldy weapons will probably still go last, but making chargers go first is definitely a step towards making Assault armies better. And that Powerfist might live to hit as a few enemy models don't get to attack (cuz the rest of the unit killed a few first)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 20:20:14


   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wounds on x is a really good mechanic in AoS, but i don't think we will see it in 40K. Too many weapons, if you put bolters at 4+ you have only 2 levels for all the stuff from heavy bolter to a deathstrike missile. Weapon strength is there to stay.
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress






 streetsamurai wrote:

It completely changes the dynamic of the game, since it make all weapon able to wound anything (which doesn't make any sense, A human with a knife should never be able to damage a tank)


You don't hurt a tank with a knife - you stab the feth out of the driver after infiltrating through the unsecured hatch.

But sure, poisoning a tank to death, or shooting a jet out of the sky with a single bolter round (while it's moving at mach3...) makes sooooo much more sense

There are lots of ways to roll AoS style mechanics into a 40K setting. As it stands now, it's garbage...I just want to see where they go to fix it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 20:21:59



 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Galef wrote:
 Latro_ wrote:
Hang on if the attackers fight first, perhaps this might be a new lease of life for power fists!

Unwieldy weapons will probably still go last, but making chargers go first is definitely a step towards making Assault armies better. And that Powerfist might live to hit as a few enemy models don't get to attack (cuz the rest of the unit killed a few first)

Well, if they keep it similar to AoS?

A unit attacks all at once, not in "steps".
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Seriously, folks... Take the fixed hitting discussion elsewhere.


 insaniak wrote:
Given that none of the rumours so far have actually suggested fixed hit rolls are being introduced to 40k, that's probably a discussion for elsewhere, at least until there is more information released on the rules changes that make it an actual likelihood.

 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






"We think the Move value should come back. No more default unit types. Every model should have cool bespoke rules. Not only would that be more fun, but it’ll mean you will only need to learn the rules for your models."


**** NO.

Giving every model "cool bespoke rules" is how we got into this problem of 40k being a bloated mess. If this is the design philosophy for 8th then it's going to be a disaster.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






 ncshooter426 wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:

It completely changes the dynamic of the game, since it make all weapon able to wound anything (which doesn't make any sense, A human with a knife should never be able to damage a tank)


You don't hurt a tank with a knife - you stab the feth out of the driver after infiltrating through the unsecured hatch.

But sure, poisoning a tank to death, or shooting a jet out of the sky with a single bolter round (while it's moving at mach3...) makes sooooo much more sense

There are lots of ways to roll AoS style mechanics into a 40K setting. As it stands now, it's garbage...I just want to see where they go to fix it.


And what about the vehicules or monstrous creatures which have no rider (Monolith). How come a guard with a knife should be able to hurt them.

Also, you need to have a basic grasp on the rules of a game if you want to complain about them. You can't poison a tank in 40k since vehicules are immune to that rule.

finally, is it possible to have a discussion without building some strawmans?. I never said anything about the flyers rules being good or realistics, nor did I say that 40k rules were perfect, so I don't know why you went there.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
Seriously, folks... Take the fixed hitting discussion elsewhere.


 insaniak wrote:
Given that none of the rumours so far have actually suggested fixed hit rolls are being introduced to 40k, that's probably a discussion for elsewhere, at least until there is more information released on the rules changes that make it an actual likelihood.


Ok

I'm out

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/23 20:35:27


lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Any new info today or are all these pages just arguing about things that may or may not exist?

"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" 
   
Made in pt
Longtime Dakkanaut





Portugal

 Nostromodamus wrote:
Any new info today or are all these pages just arguing about things that may or may not exist?


Option 2. Nothing to see here, carry on, citizen.

"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

The take away I have had for all of this news is that ithe really seems like 8th is not ready in any way shape or form to go to print, let alone hit the shelves. They are talking about things they WANT to do, not things to expect. And it does seem like they want to take the best aspects of AoS and apply them to 40K. So what they are talking about is a bit of a plus, but it still seems like 8th is pretty far off.

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






 Peregrine wrote:

**** NO.

Giving every model "cool bespoke rules" is how we got into this problem of 40k being a bloated mess. If this is the design philosophy for 8th then it's going to be a disaster.


ONLY a problem if they let problem armies sit too long without a fix.

Rules have been borked plenty of times, and despite being very bad at it, it seems like they're usually interested in trying to fix things when new codexes came out, or new rules launched. sure sometimes they are a bit too heavy handed, and other times they are a bit slow on the uptake, but they seem to not want to let the fires they set burn uncontrollably.

If they release updated rules for every unit in the game at once, available online... it means that when something is broken they can spend an afternoon hashing the fix out in the office. They can check online for people discussing whats wrong with it, and potential fixes, update the source for the rules and send out a tweet saying that the document is changed and in what way.

as it stands, when something is broken (say massively under-costed) they have to wait for the codex to have its turn. They've gotta collect every problem that they can find for that codex and try to resolve them all. Then they've gotta get the sculptors to design something new to go along with the release (and make rules for that, hoping its not unintentionally broken). Things are even worse if you're not dealing with a problem that originates in a codex, but rather one that comes from the BRB. In order to fix walkers, they've gotta wait for the edition to switch. They've gotta consider every walker in the game, how they're all costed and in what ways they interact with the fix. ALL of them at the same time.

if unit types go away, and say, eldar jetbikes end up broken as gak... you can just update their card. If space marine dreads are working fine, but massively over costed - Card update. Harlequins never make it into assault; boom their card now says they roll 3d6 for assault and keep the highest two. Terminators always die? For every five in the squad you get a re-roll on a failed save, or two.. Two was too much, go back to one next week.

This has the potential to be a fantastic change, especially combined with the fact that they seem to want community input on rulings/faq/etc. In a few months I will be able to post on the gw community site an explain to them why a s4 exploding trukk is bonkers.

ERJAK wrote:


The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.

 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 davou wrote:
ONLY a problem if they let problem armies sit too long without a fix.


No, it's a problem, period. Updating all armies fast enough fixes the balance issues but it doesn't fix the complexity issues. 40k has major problems with the rules being a bloated mess of special rules, exceptions to the special rules, exceptions to the exceptions, etc. And now GW is promising to make sure that each model has its "cool bespoke rules" instead of simplifying things into core rules for classes of units.

if unit types go away, and say, eldar jetbikes end up broken as gak... you can just update their card. If space marine dreads are working fine, but massively over costed - Card update. Harlequins never make it into assault; boom their card now says they roll 3d6 for assault and keep the highest two. Terminators always die? For every five in the squad you get a re-roll on a failed save, or two.. Two was too much, go back to one next week.


This is terrible design. Frequent major changes like that means that the game designer is doing a job of developing the product before publication, and it imposes a huge burden on the players to keep track of all the weekly changes. And when you're making major changes like that (as opposed to minor point cost adjustments) you're almost guaranteeing that you will create things that don't work well and have to keep making major changes. The correct way to do it is to do proper design and playtesting so that the final product is finished, and needs minor adjustments at most once it is published.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/23 21:02:29


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





We can complain all we want about the future of 40k, but.....

THERE'S NO GOING BACK NOW! GAME OVER MAN! GAME OVER!
   
 
Forum Index » News & Rumors
Go to: