GW Adepticon 2017 Studio Preview-8th edition rumors (p31)

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**tneva82**

Future War Cultist wrote:
There's a stormcast ability (I think it's for dracoths) that lets you nominate a point on the board and roll a d6 for all units within 2" of that point, and on a 4+ they suffer mortal wounds. It works really well, and is quick and easy to perform too. It's a great stand in for a template ability.

I'll say this too. One of the advantages of warscrolls is that you can have different answers to the same question. A shield carried by one faction will not do the same things as a shield carried by another faction. It really makes units feel unique.

It also leads to rulebloay to hell.

Nobody misses when dark angel storms held worked differently to ultramarine just because

**Kanluwen**

tneva82 wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote:
There's a stormcast ability (I think it's for dracoths) that lets you nominate a point on the board and roll a d6 for all units within 2" of that point, and on a 4+ they suffer mortal wounds. It works really well, and is quick and easy to perform too. It's a great stand in for a template ability.

I'll say this too. One of the advantages of warscrolls is that you can have different answers to the same question. A shield carried by one faction will not do the same things as a shield carried by another faction. It really makes units feel unique.

It also leads to rulebloay to hell.

Nobody misses when dark angel storms held worked differently to ultramarine just because

Not the same situation.

The shields for each faction work differently.
The "Glade Shields" on Eternal Guard for the Wanderers get to reroll save rolls of 1; or 1 and 2 when in Cover.
The "Stardrake Shields" on Seraphon let you ignore the enemy's Rend characteristic unless it is -2 or better.

Each unit has their own uniquely named kind of shield, which gives them some kind of unique attribute. It's listed on the warscroll themselves rather than in some main rulebook.

**kodos**

It would be like blue painted Stormcasts have different rules than red painted Stormcasts

and the one who paints his Stormcasts gold is "that guy" because ge can use the rules that are best against a specific opponent.

no, it was fun when Black Templer were the top army for 6 months because they missed to update them, but I don't miss those times at all

**Kirasu**

Standardized rules benefit everyone, yet I feel GW continues to miss this point. All armies in the Imperium uses the same basic wargear thus it makes absolutely no sense that a stormshield is different between armies.

**zedsdead**

Red Corsair wrote:
Verviedi wrote:

Spoiler:

Not-not-kenny wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Not-not-kenny wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Not-not-kenny wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Random rolling to know how many dice you need to roll is far more devilish. We're supposed to be getting rid of that, not encouraging it.

I'm not being contrarian here, genuinely asking: why is the random roll of a D6 worse than the random rolling of a scattering template?

A scatter template makes sense, representing a shell possibly missing and hitting something else, in true "This is a giant explosive" fashion. If a Basilisk shell misses, it doesn't just disappear. Random rolls remove the interesting element from this, as the giant shell apparently just vanishes into the aether if it misses, rather than potentially hitting something else.

Now this I understand. I can also appreciate the added flavour and immersion in having a shot scatter onto another unit, but it gets pretty weird with non-barrage blasts that make casualties from different units still be taken from who is closest to the firing unit. I guess it just comes down to personal preference as to which abstractions you're fine with.

I'm for increasing depth, and removing randomness. In my eyes, scattering blasts does a good job of this. Random shots don't. Random shots make me think "GW, are you really telling me that my Stormsurge, connected to dozens of high-tech sensors, doesn't know how many cluster rockets it's firing per turn?"

Ok there I have to ask again, sorry if I'm getting hung up on semantics, but you say "removing randomness" but isn't it basically the exact same amount of randomness, one of them just has an extra die? (Now I'm not asking about 'depth', or the possibility of hitting other units).

Scattering blasts is a situation where removing randomness really can't be done without compromising the system. I can cut out random warlord traits, psychic powers, random stormsurge rockets, the Chaos Boon Table, etc, and replace them with fixed values, true player tactical choice, or in the case of the Chaos Boon Table, an actual useful rule.
Scattering blasts makes sense, as that Basilisk does not have the systems necessary to pinpoint a shell at a rapidly moving target. It is a case where randomness is good, in a sea of terrible randomness.

This whole line of reasoning is terrible.

In AOS you don't roll random hits then roll again to hit. You pick a unit in range or say a warp fire thrower for example, you roll d6 and that is the number of HITS. Your making huge assumptions when you assume that blasts will determin the number then roll to hit, your also assuming how many hits they can generate. For all you know a Basilisk could generate 2d3 auto hits. Either way, this is WAY more efficient then the mess with templates. I am also calling BS on using that Basilisk as an example, I play guard and I can tell you that tank is lucky as all hell if it can find a space with 3 dudes under the template before scattering, slowed. The push for bigger bases and the edition flip flop between placing the blast anywhere to centered over a models base has made a 5 inch diameter blast only capable of fitting 2 guys under the template if they are maxed spaced. Currently the small blast can get 1 guy. The old system has sucked for years, it's more random, time consuming and generates more arguing then nearly any other system. Where was the template originally as you hover it over ambiguously? Are you following the arrow? Are you moving the template only or are you shifting the template in the opposite direction you move the template (I see this in 9/10 games it's not malicious it's a hand eye thing)? Then who is under the template?

Your also ignoring the major fix this has on solo models. Now a flamer toting joe can hose the same idiot captain down with multiple hits, or that vindicator that can only fit a single tervigon under the blast can now blast massive damage out of it.

TLDR; it's not more random it's just not the same. Play with it first.

agreed RC

**Daedalus81**

Kirasu wrote:
Standardized rules benefit everyone, yet I feel GW continues to miss this point. All armies in the Imperium uses the same basic wargear thus it makes absolutely no sense that a stormshield is different between armies.

Have you seen how many different rules get tacked onto new characters and models? Rules on a scroll is super simple, adds variety, and keeps us from having to keep a bookmark in a massive book to find that special rule.

**Kanluwen**

Kirasu wrote:
Standardized rules benefit everyone, yet I feel GW continues to miss this point. All armies in the Imperium uses the same basic wargear thus it makes absolutely no sense that a stormshield is different between armies.

What about an archaeotech Storm Shield wielded by a Dark Angels Champion? A hand-crafted artifact wielded by a Salamanders Champion?

There's actually a ton of places where you could feasibly make a case for Storm Shields acting slightly different, which all actually end up being kind of fluffy.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Not to mention differences in shield design ethos and how the warrior uses them.

A Targe is a kind of shield, as is a Tower Shield. Both have completely different applications (Targe is for parry, Tower outright blocking, and only really effective used by a block) and allow for radically different fighting styles.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirasu wrote:
Standardized rules benefit everyone, yet I feel GW continues to miss this point. All armies in the Imperium uses the same basic wargear thus it makes absolutely no sense that a stormshield is different between armies.

But here I do and I don't agree.

Yes, if they're going for standardised equipment (let's stick with the Stormshield example) then it had better be identical across the game. So Bolt Pistols are Bolt Pistols, with identical stats and application.

But, in Age of Sigmar, each unit has it's own unique rules on it's sheet. So with that design, it's not as big a deal as Stormshields across two books, because they're not meant to be equivalent.

**GenRifDrake**

As someone who hasn't touched AoS (because, good game or not, I loved the old world setting for over a decade and the decision to kill it off essentially makes the whole universe dead to me. :( At least it lives on in Total War: Warhammer..! ) how does the Warscroll system work. Is it literally just you get rules in box or download them from GW's website with everything you need for the unit to play it, and just play?

**Nah Man Pichu**

GenRifDrake wrote:
As someone who hasn't touched AoS (because, good game or not, I loved the old world setting for over a decade and the decision to kill it off essentially makes the whole universe dead to me. :( At least it lives on in Total War: Warhammer..! ) how does the Warscroll system work. Is it literally just you get rules in box or download them from GW's website with everything you need for the unit to play it, and just play?

That's literally it.

Poked around for the first time yesterday (Never been interested in Fantasy, but rumors of 8th edition being like AoS had me curious)

They're all just right there for download, along with the game rules. Completely free, each unit has it's own special rules or modifiers.

I actually really like it. They don't have a tenth of the fluff as the codex system does, but from a strictly gameplay standpoint, if 8th edition is anything like it it'll be so much simpler, especially for new players.

My brother picked it up just in time, he just started playing and is already frustrated by all the rules, 8th will make it easier for everyone (hopefully)

**Rezyn**

Nah Man Pichu wrote:
GenRifDrake wrote:
As someone who hasn't touched AoS (because, good game or not, I loved the old world setting for over a decade and the decision to kill it off essentially makes the whole universe dead to me. :( At least it lives on in Total War: Warhammer..! ) how does the Warscroll system work. Is it literally just you get rules in box or download them from GW's website with everything you need for the unit to play it, and just play?

That's literally it.

Poked around for the first time yesterday (Never been interested in Fantasy, but rumors of 8th edition being like AoS had me curious)

They're all just right there for download, along with the game rules. Completely free, each unit has it's own special rules or modifiers.

I actually really like it. They don't have a tenth of the fluff as the codex system does, but from a strictly gameplay standpoint, if 8th edition is anything like it it'll be so much simpler, especially for new players.

My brother picked it up just in time, he just started playing and is already frustrated by all the rules, 8th will make it easier for everyone (hopefully)

100% Agree. Now we just need to convince the other heretics.

**Youn**

The warscrolls for AoS are missing a 4 page rulebook and a point system. The point system is in the General's Handbook. And it basically gives the units name and how many points the base number of models cost.

So if the Infantryman (Generic) warscroll says 5 to 20 models. And the General's Handbook says Infantryman (Generic) cost 50 points. 5 infantry man would cost 50 points, 6 to 10 would cost 100, 11 to 15 would cost 150 and 16 to 20 would cost 200.

They get whatever options are on the warscroll.

**Nah Man Pichu**

Rezyn wrote:
Nah Man Pichu wrote:
GenRifDrake wrote:
As someone who hasn't touched AoS (because, good game or not, I loved the old world setting for over a decade and the decision to kill it off essentially makes the whole universe dead to me. :( At least it lives on in Total War: Warhammer..! ) how does the Warscroll system work. Is it literally just you get rules in box or download them from GW's website with everything you need for the unit to play it, and just play?

That's literally it.

Poked around for the first time yesterday (Never been interested in Fantasy, but rumors of 8th edition being like AoS had me curious)

They're all just right there for download, along with the game rules. Completely free, each unit has it's own special rules or modifiers.

I actually really like it. They don't have a tenth of the fluff as the codex system does, but from a strictly gameplay standpoint, if 8th edition is anything like it it'll be so much simpler, especially for new players.

My brother picked it up just in time, he just started playing and is already frustrated by all the rules, 8th will make it easier for everyone (hopefully)

100% Agree. Now we just need to convince the other heretics.

They'll come around. Or they'll keep playing 7th. It's really not as big a deal as people make it. Nobodies' forcing you.

For example, I HATE the newer Halo games. So my friends and I just play the old ones. Sure it's a bummer that I don't get the story updates, but we still have fun. I don't get why people can't have that mentality about it.

**Chikout**

GenRifDrake wrote:
As someone who hasn't touched AoS (because, good game or not, I loved the old world setting for over a decade and the decision to kill it off essentially makes the whole universe dead to me. :( At least it lives on in Total War: Warhammer..! ) how does the Warscroll system work. Is it literally just you get rules in box or download them from GW's website with everything you need for the unit to play it, and just play?

It is pretty much this. You can see points for free by using the scroll builder website.
The things that are worth paying for are mostly battleplans which negate the mosh pit in the middle of the board problem that a lot of early AOS games had. There are also battalions, magic items and faction abilities which are only in the battletomes or the general's handbook but these are layers on top of the core free ruleset.
It will be very interesting to see to what extent 40k will copy this philosophy. Will they try to get the rules into 8 or 12 pages? Will they do a free app with all the core rules in it? etc, etc.

**ZebioLizard2**

Kanluwen wrote:
Kirasu wrote:
Standardized rules benefit everyone, yet I feel GW continues to miss this point. All armies in the Imperium uses the same basic wargear thus it makes absolutely no sense that a stormshield is different between armies.

What about an archaeotech Storm Shield wielded by a Dark Angels Champion? A hand-crafted artifact wielded by a Salamanders Champion?

There's actually a ton of places where you could feasibly make a case for Storm Shields acting slightly different, which all actually end up being kind of fluffy.

Yeah while "Standardized" equipment is that there's boltguns, there's in actuality there are many different brands of boltgun and some do things differently and no I'm not talking about Stalker Bolters and the like.

For example the most baseline is the Godwyn pattern, the Minotaurs use the Godwyn Ultima, the Deathwatch use Hesh-pattern, Salamanders use the Nocturne-Ultima...

I could go on, but to say that each brand fires exactly the same range, firing rate, and other such factors is completely surprising given that technology can vary between Forgeworlds even, and we've even seen modifications such as the Baal Pattern Rhinos.. It just all specifically depends on if you have a major codex that isn't baseline.

**oni**

I started playing Warhammer 40,000 shortly after 2nd edition hit store shelves.
Games back then were typically played at 2000 points, used 30-40 models total and took 4+ hours to play.
Why did it take 4+ hours to play? Several reasons; two of which were:
1. Movement stats - Everything moved so slow that it took several turns just to position for a shot or get close enough to assault.
2. Stat modifiers - A fair amount of time was chewed up determining what die roll was needed to hit and what die roll was needed to save.

Simple does not always = Quick.

My concern is that while we'll see a simplification of the rules, we will not see a reduction in time required to play the game.

Here's to hoping that I'm wrong.

P.S. The move stat was one of the biggest reasons 2nd edition Eldar = Auto-win.

**stewe128**

You know the people that mostly complain about being able to have fluffier lists and stand a chance against cheese, more variety in games, and a lot more mainstream game that doesn't need over $150 in books are usually "That guy". The people that are uber-competitive pricks, and it will be so bitter sweet that the meta will flip like a pancake soon, and hopefully be as relaxed of games as HH.

**ZebioLizard2**

P.S. The move stat was one of the biggest reasons 2nd edition Eldar = Auto-win.

Not really, it didn't even come to close the Shuriken Weapons on cheap guardians or the absolute combos you could do with Exarchs.

**Nah Man Pichu**

oni wrote:
I started playing Warhammer 40,000 shortly after 2nd edition hit store shelves.
Games back then were typically played at 2000 points, used 30-40 models total and took 4+ hours to play.
Why did it take 4+ hours to play? Several reasons; two of which were:
1. Movement stats - Everything moved so slow that it took several turns just to position for a shot or get close enough to assault.
2. Stat modifiers - A fair amount of time was chewed up determining what die roll was needed to hit and what die roll was needed to save.

Simple does not always = Quick.

My concern is that while we'll see a simplification of the rules, we will not see a reduction in time required to play the game.

Here's to hoping that I'm wrong.

P.S. The move stat was one of the biggest reasons 2nd edition Eldar = Auto-win.

That's a solid point, I would argue however that Warhammer was never intended to be a "quick" game.

Based on your own point there it's been a lengthy game virtually since it's inception.

So while I'm with you on game speed, I think it's not realistic, simply because it's never been a fast game.

Besides, they offer opportunities to play quicker games such as Zone Mortalis and Kill Team.

**GenRifDrake**

oni wrote:
I started playing Warhammer 40,000 shortly after 2nd edition hit store shelves.
Games back then were typically played at 2000 points, used 30-40 models total and took 4+ hours to play.
Why did it take 4+ hours to play? Several reasons; two of which were:
1. Movement stats - Everything moved so slow that it took several turns just to position for a shot or get close enough to assault.
2. Stat modifiers - A fair amount of time was chewed up determining what die roll was needed to hit and what die roll was needed to save.

Simple does not always = Quick.

My concern is that while we'll see a simplification of the rules, we will not see a reduction in time required to play the game.

Here's to hoping that I'm wrong.

P.S. The move stat was one of the biggest reasons 2nd edition Eldar = Auto-win.

If it took so long because everything moved so slow that's not a problem because a Movement stat exists, that's a problem of stat distribution and it's impact on the game overall. If they add a movement stat and made 6" be the "standard" human/average movement, then you'll see no difference to how your models are position/moving around in 8th edition as compared to now. They'll still move 6", just some people, probably folks like Eldar and the nippier, swarmy critters like hormogaunts etc will move faster, and some maybe even slower, like I could see a cumbersome centurion being something that does not huff it as fast as a regular marine etc.

Point 2 varies massively from person to person, and i've not caught up yet fully with rumours but if you mean Armour Modifiers i've never had an issue with it as a fantasy player, it becomes pretty innate and quick to caluclate in your head overtime. I usually did it pre-emptively as I knew what was going to be attacked by what from declarations so I knew if that unit was going to be hit by this then that would mean come my time to roll saves, I would need to roll this etc etc. I don't get why people think you need to do such calculation WHEN the time actually comes for you to roll dice... Do it BEFORE hand, you know what's going to hit you and what's coming, your opponent HAS to tell you, do it in your head whilst they're working out how many hits and wounds they're going to lay on you.

**Elbows**

Older games took longer because that's how the game was designed. It wasn't done in error. The rulebook stated outright in the beginning; here is how long a game will take.

Gaming culture might value a 45-90 minute game (and surely that would work better in a tournament setting) but that wasn't the purpose of 2nd edition, or Rogue Trader.

Being well versed in second, it's quite easy to rapidly go through games if you have modified the two longest steps; psychic phase, and hand-to-hand combat. Modifiers and movement values had almost zero impact on the speed of the game. Slow infantry? Rhinos could move up to 25" on Fast Speed band (jump packs allow assault marines to move 18"+4" if they were attempting to charge into close combat - i.e. there was a purpose to taking them). Also weapons generally shot further than they do in 3rd-7th so you don't need to be up close and personal with your firearms. 60-72" was common for heavy weapons. Berzerkers could triple their Movement Value instead of double it when charging/running, so they'd move 12" a turn. You were responsible for buying stuff in your army which allowed you to move rather than the silliness of your whole army doing a 1st turn charge like you can now in games.

We recently played three 1500 pt. games in about eight hours (about 10 hours total but that included lunch and hanging out between games). We've edited the psychic phase and hand-to-hand combat and voila...easier and smoother. Personally I like getting stuck into a 2-4 hour game myself. I've less interest in a "short" game unless we're doing a Necromunda/Mordheim evening and playing a bunch of small skirmishes.

**Breng77**

oni wrote:
I started playing Warhammer 40,000 shortly after 2nd edition hit store shelves.
Games back then were typically played at 2000 points, used 30-40 models total and took 4+ hours to play.
Why did it take 4+ hours to play? Several reasons; two of which were:
1. Movement stats - Everything moved so slow that it took several turns just to position for a shot or get close enough to assault.
2. Stat modifiers - A fair amount of time was chewed up determining what die roll was needed to hit and what die roll was needed to save.

Simple does not always = Quick.

My concern is that while we'll see a simplification of the rules, we will not see a reduction in time required to play the game.

Here's to hoping that I'm wrong.

P.S. The move stat was one of the biggest reasons 2nd edition Eldar = Auto-win.

To me those issues are a problem with execution and not one of the ideas themselves.

1.) If things were too slow, just make them faster, if the slowest units move say 4-5", but are mostly long range shooting units, then it isn't really an issue. They can also still run, or use other methods of transport. If anything I see it as a way to make more units fast without all faster units moving 12". So if Daemonettes are supposed to be fast maybe the move 9" in the movement phase.

2.) Modifiers causing slowdown has 2 probable causes. First, multiple modifiers on every roll. If unit A gets +1 to hit for not moving, -2 for shooting into cover, and its target has another -1 due to a special rule, I can see how this could slow people down if they are bad at quick math. Does that really take less time then rolling a cover save?, or having re-rolls to various saves? We have so many re-rolls today that it takes just as long to make all the rolls (or longer). Second, people not being comfortable with modifiers. Just like the to hit table taking a long time if you need to check it every time, modifiers take a long time if you need to check all of them. In 2e you needed to commit both the table and the modifiers to memory.

It may well be that execution isn't there and it could be a mess, but if it is things should speed up.

**Youn**

Well, if the demons are any indication of what type move they would have in 8th edition. Demonettes have 6", Bloodletters have 5" and Plaguebearers have 4" in AoS. So, I would bet they are going to be the same in 8th.

**Azreal13**

Older games took longer because that's how the game was designed.

Maybe, although my experience is a little different to Oni's. Sure, we could take a while to play games in the beginning, but with a regular set of opponents and armies, I reckon we were banging through 3000pt games in a little over two hours towards the end of 2nd.

Slow play isn't always the fault of the rules, the players can have a big impact too. (Which isn't a criticism, just people vary.)

**kodos**

I remeber that those 2500 points B&B games in 2nd took less time than the 1850P tournament games wer everyone tries to play fast
so the game become much slower over time
the fastest games we had in 4th

**JohnnyHell**

I don't recall 2nd being overly long. You remember stats over time and just rattle them off, ditto modifiers. In fact, I remember statlines to this day because of 2nd.

It had Wargear cards and Psychic cards and cards galore, but each of them had everything you needed to know on it. The clutter on the table side was high, but it reduced the sheer amount of cross-referencing needed currently. The idea that USRs are always the same is great, but there are so many that in practice you may as well have unit cards.

Right now, to play 7th, I make a list in Battlescribe, print off the summary then use that, the Codex summary tables, and the ArbitorIan's summary sheets as much as possible to play. Bits of paper really do help! I for one welcome our new, rumoured Warscroll overlords...

**timetowaste85**

Honestly, there is no reason daemons couldn't get a straight port over from AoS to...guess we'll call it 8th for now. How are they in AoS with points and such? I haven't played since "put whatever you want on the table and have fun".

**Galas**

Warhammer was in his beginning a form to fight bigger battles with a hard roleplay feeling.

Pure competitive games are better being quick and easy, balanced, etc... but thats was never the intention of Warhammer. (And I don't say this to excuse his poor balance. Theres minimuns even to a "narrative" focus game)

But today its obvius that quick and competitive games its the cow that gives the most milk and attracts more players, so its obvious why GW wants to make 40k more accesible (Just like AoS)

And in the point about AoS points, yes, they are in the General Hand Book, but you can go to the Warscrol builder and just see them for free:

http://www.scrollbuilder.com/

GW already confirmed that they will put this tool in his oficial Warhammer Community site, so they will give the points for the units free too. The pure competitive experience of AoS still needs the Generals HandBook and the Battletomes, but as long as they sell those for 20€ I see it reasonable.

**frozenwastes**

Elbows wrote:Being well versed in second, it's quite easy to rapidly go through games if you have modified the two longest steps; psychic phase, and hand-to-hand combat. Modifiers and movement values had almost zero impact on the speed of the game.

This is my experience as well. A curated subset of the wargear cards and some modifications to the psychic phase and close combat and 2nd edition becomes quick and solid.

**Red Corsair**

oni wrote:
I started playing Warhammer 40,000 shortly after 2nd edition hit store shelves.
Games back then were typically played at 2000 points, used 30-40 models total and took 4+ hours to play.
Why did it take 4+ hours to play? Several reasons; two of which were:
1. Movement stats - Everything moved so slow that it took several turns just to position for a shot or get close enough to assault.
2. Stat modifiers - A fair amount of time was chewed up determining what die roll was needed to hit and what die roll was needed to save.

Simple does not always = Quick.

My concern is that while we'll see a simplification of the rules, we will not see a reduction in time required to play the game.

Here's to hoping that I'm wrong.

P.S. The move stat was one of the biggest reasons 2nd edition Eldar = Auto-win.

I played the same edition and while i agree that SOME games took forever, your reasons why are totally bogus. 9/10 infantry moved 4" and could run 8" if they forfeit shooting. You were lucky to see more then 2-3 vehicles per side which had their on data cards that made it dumby proof. Save mods were simple to, again 9/10 weapons used the same conversion chart, -1 for s4, -2 for s5 etc etc.

What killed the game was that ridiculous combat system, where a single assassin (I am looking at you eversore) could dance 3" from guy to guy fighting individual combats with each and every model, including things like fumbles and parries. THIS is what bogged the games down. It appears as though it aint returning either.