Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Righto, my two cents as a new player coming in now - Which I am

Rewind back to when I first looked at 40k - Eye of Terror was released, and I'd read about the campaign in a couple of White Dwarfs - Chaos was kicking ass, and people were playing games across the world, using cards which determined the entirety of the story (true or not, still damn cool) and mass Chaos vs Universe battles. I can't recall the exact results, but some of the Chaos effects were damn powerful and felt like a true threat.

Fastforward to now - I've read a bit about whats going on, and know the basics. However I see or feel ZERO threat from Chaos currently - Heck, they've barely been mentioned besides "Chaos has destroyed/overwhelmed Cadia, we're all doomed!" followed by silence while we now have three releases to give some sort of hope against this threat....

However I don't see or feel any threat, theres literally nothing thats happened barring Magus in some demon form coming back, while Abandon apparently rek'd house.... but theres no evidence or feeling of things going tits up at all!

So all we have now is "Hey guys, Chaos is destroying the universe and everything is doomed - But we're not gonna say how, showcase it or anything, just believe us its happening - Now here's the potential saviors to stop the threat that you can't see kicking off"

Just feels weird as someone new with a basic knowledge coming into the game... any feelings of "Hey these new guys are cool" is ruined by the fact they are appearing in the hour of need, with no evidence of said hour of need.....

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
so random thought... Bjorn meeting Gulliman... anyone else think that could be an awesome thing to see?

Pretty sure Bjorn has already met Gulliman as part of Russ' Honour Guard - not a personal meeting, more of in the same room ten thousand years ago.
Still, after hearing the last 10k years of craziness Papa Smurf is going to want to drink something with enough venom to kill a man and nobody makes booze like the Space Mutts - If they still have the recipie for what Russ drank they could probably put Gulliman back in a coma.

ohh I'm sure they've met just not well.. recently, *has this mental image of Gulliman grabbing Bjorn giving him a hug and saying "SOMEONE I KNOW IS STILL ALIVE!"*

And Bjorn responding "I'm honoured you think you know me but you're burning out my servos".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tooooon wrote:
Righto, my two cents as a new player coming in now - Which I am

Rewind back to when I first looked at 40k - Eye of Terror was released, and I'd read about the campaign in a couple of White Dwarfs - Chaos was kicking ass, and people were playing games across the world, using cards which determined the entirety of the story (true or not, still damn cool) and mass Chaos vs Universe battles. I can't recall the exact results, but some of the Chaos effects were damn powerful and felt like a true threat.

Fastforward to now - I've read a bit about whats going on, and know the basics. However I see or feel ZERO threat from Chaos currently - Heck, they've barely been mentioned besides "Chaos has destroyed/overwhelmed Cadia, we're all doomed!" followed by silence while we now have three releases to give some sort of hope against this threat....

However I don't see or feel any threat, theres literally nothing thats happened barring Magus in some demon form coming back, while Abandon apparently rek'd house.... but theres no evidence or feeling of things going tits up at all!

So all we have now is "Hey guys, Chaos is destroying the universe and everything is doomed - But we're not gonna say how, showcase it or anything, just believe us its happening - Now here's the potential saviors to stop the threat that you can't see kicking off"

Just feels weird as someone new with a basic knowledge coming into the game... any feelings of "Hey these new guys are cool" is ruined by the fact they are appearing in the hour of need, with no evidence of said hour of need.....

Three planets given a stomping, lots of homeworlds with minimal protection, lots of Chaos forces unaccounted for. The threat is there - it's not particularly well written though.

 Tooooon wrote:
Righto, my two cents as a new player coming in now - Which I am

Rewind back to when I first looked at 40k - Eye of Terror was released, and I'd read about the campaign in a couple of White Dwarfs - Chaos was kicking ass, and people were playing games across the world, using cards which determined the entirety of the story (true or not, still damn cool) and mass Chaos vs Universe battles. I can't recall the exact results, but some of the Chaos effects were damn powerful and felt like a true threat.

Fastforward to now - I've read a bit about whats going on, and know the basics. However I see or feel ZERO threat from Chaos currently - Heck, they've barely been mentioned besides "Chaos has destroyed/overwhelmed Cadia, we're all doomed!" followed by silence while we now have three releases to give some sort of hope against this threat....

However I don't see or feel any threat, theres literally nothing thats happened barring Magus in some demon form coming back, while Abandon apparently rek'd house.... but theres no evidence or feeling of things going tits up at all!

So all we have now is "Hey guys, Chaos is destroying the universe and everything is doomed - But we're not gonna say how, showcase it or anything, just believe us its happening - Now here's the potential saviors to stop the threat that you can't see kicking off"

Just feels weird as someone new with a basic knowledge coming into the game... any feelings of "Hey these new guys are cool" is ruined by the fact they are appearing in the hour of need, with no evidence of said hour of need.....

There is a great hour of need. The Cadians were the best of the Guard forces and are now decimated, having (maybe) lost one of the best commanders they've ever had. The planet that basically kept the Chaos forces funneled through one specific area of the galaxy in order to come out of the eye is now gone, meaning that they get to come and go as they please now rather than be limited by the Deus Ex Machina functionality of the pylons. The Thousand Sons are now back in real space able to carry out Tzeentch's great plans with even greater efficiency (although I wonder does Prospero being back hurt their time lapse force regeneration shenanigans?). Keep in mind how many worlds are now left with minimal defenses while the Imperium looks to the Eye and other systems focused by the legions right now and then think of the other Xenos threats in the galaxy and what they could possibly do (hello Orkz! and Tyranids!) while the Imperium has to deal with the new threat of the Eye.

All true regarding the threat, but it's always been like that. In the fluff there are always world shattering events and threats. Entire systems or even sectors lost or destroyed etc... they've had it dialed up to 10 for so long now that they've taken it to 11 it's no surprise it's not as big of a deal it maybe seems.

I was ecstatic about traitor legions, even though point costs of comparable loyalist units suck. I was ecstatic about Magnus, even bought a full detachment so I can run 1k sons, even though my DG army is huge.

I was disappointed in the cost of RG. 300 pts cheaper, still hits like a truck, most likely to survive and chance to come back if you do kill him. Magnus could D him with one shot I suppose but is that worth the extra 300 pts, (looking at you Wraithknights)

So overall should we be happy, sure. I mean Mortation is on the black crusade right now so I'm hopefully GW will see the potential cash cow and get something out for us, and I hope to hell Abby doesn't die, since I had just finished my Black Legion detachment. But none the less there is a bit of despair mixed in with happiness. Its quite a duality for a chaos player.

 redleger wrote:
I was ecstatic about traitor legions, even though point costs of comparable loyalist units suck. I was ecstatic about Magnus, even bought a full detachment so I can run 1k sons, even though my DG army is huge.

I was disappointed in the cost of RG. 300 pts cheaper, still hits like a truck, most likely to survive and chance to come back if you do kill him. Magnus could D him with one shot I suppose but is that worth the extra 300 pts, (looking at you Wraithknights)

So overall should we be happy, sure. I mean Mortation is on the black crusade right now so I'm hopefully GW will see the potential cash cow and get something out for us, and I hope to hell Abby doesn't die, since I had just finished my Black Legion detachment. But none the less there is a bit of despair mixed in with happiness. Its quite a duality for a chaos player.

Psyker beat sticks have always been more highly priced then contemporaries without it. long before they announced it I predicted Gulliman would be a good deal cheaper then Magnus as a result.

Some are bitter about Ynnari.

But then again, a few months back some were bitter about Genestealer Cults. Same story over and over, hate on the new stuff.

GodDamUser wrote:
Have people forgotten there was a whole range of new minis for Thousand Sons..not just Magnus

You have missed the point. Please re-read the OP.

More Chaos players whining about not being snowflakey enough. Must be a day that ends in Y again.

Feeling bitter? Hell no! Don't get me wrong some Chaosy models would be cool but the standard of models in the sets are (in my opinion) AWESOME! I didn't have an Eldar army but I do now!

The grey Knights got a character that's kinda worthless when you realize it's 240 points for a T4 model with 3 wounds and no eternal warrior of 3+ invuln.

 Rippy wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Have people forgotten there was a whole range of new minis for Thousand Sons..not just Magnus

You have missed the point. Please re-read the OP.

he did but I think he's taking a larger view and seeing GS in a "greater context" GS is intended as it's own trilogy but IMHO it's part of a greater narrative that began with Angel's blade/Traitor's hate, Continued with Curse of the Wolven/Wraith has moved into Gathering storm, and will no doubt continue the rest of the year. 2017 is the "year of the 13th black crusade"

 master of ordinance wrote:
>Chaos finally advancing - WOOO!
But only two factions get any updates and only one of those gets any buffs and the new special character is not as powerful as all that he is bigged up to be.

This, this sums it up.

Chaos seems....mediocre.

Traitor Legions? It's a band aid being stuck onto an ancient Codex. It doesn't really fix the problems for the most part - we're still using a crutch of a system there.

New Thousand Sons? Joy. That's like telling the SM players to be happy for new Thunderwolves. I'm sure your Ultras, DAs and BAs are super happy for Thunderwolves, right? Faction specific and arguably the weakest faction at that.

Magnus...sure, the kit is huge. And faction specific.

And his rules are....sigh.

Well. Ok.

A month later we get more survivability on 200 point Sister and Ad-Mech characters.

2 months later the Eldar come along and get the same new shinies.

Sprinkle in Roboute and Chaos are left scratching their heads.

In terms of Imperial SCs...well...let's look at that shall we.

Since 2nd ed....how many new Imperial SCs have there been compared to Chaos?

Chaos have gotten...Typhus and Lucius. We had Doomrider temporarily but he appears to have disappeared off the face of the Earth. We actually lost all the named Daemon Princes.

Imperials....well. Wow. Ok then.

I can only hope the next 'campaign' actually realises that the antagonists need to seriously be upped to the level of actual antagonists.

Because as it stands - Celestine, Cawl, the Ynnead Triumvirate and Roboute literally crap all over anything Chaos can bring out to play with ease. And GW are trying to tell us that fluffwise CSM are so terrifying it forces an alliance of all those? Are you kidding me?

It literally feels like, current power levels of books compared that CSM are literally just hordes of fodder to die in droves. Traitor Legions was a band-aid. Not a gods damned miracle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:
The grey Knights got a character that's kinda worthless when you realize it's 240 points for a T4 model with 3 wounds and no eternal warrior of 3+ invuln.

However you can freely slot in any of the Imperial Triumvirate and I bet you'll be able to freely slot in the SM Triumvirate just the same.

So basically GK just got Roboute, Celestine and Cawl if you really want.

New Thousand Sons? Joy. That's like telling the SM players to be happy for new Thunderwolves. I'm sure your Ultras, DAs and BAs are super happy for Thunderwolves, right? Faction specific and arguably the weakest faction at that

actually that's like telling a Imperial fists player to be happy for space Marines getting Gulliman. or telling black templar players to be thrilled with "all the new stuff they got in angels of death" (in fact I'd say it's even less legit as nothing stops a chaos player from using a CAD that mixes in 1k sons alongside khrone bezerkers etc.)

you complaina bout "band aid codex supplements" but whom has gotten a new codex, a genuine new codex, since getting a hard cover codex?

Since 2nd ed....how many new Imperial SCs have there been compared to Chaos?

can't rightly say as I've not been around since 2nd, however I feel a Need to point something out..
Imperium of Man Codices: ~10 (this is approx as some codices you may not count, like Imperial Knights etc)

Chaos Space Marines Codices: 3 (and one is a Hybrid of the two)

so the IoM Having more special characters... KINDA MAKES SENSE.

now let's move onto special characters chaos has gotten since 6th edition (modern 40k more or less) Be'lakor, Cypher (no he's not being lost to chaos) Magnus. and remember it's still early, GW has already said this is gonna be a BIIIG year, and every faction is gonna get something, Chaos hasn't gotten their goodies yetif I was a betting man I'd be betting on more plastic cult troops, and more deamon primarchs.

I personally just wish I got more space marine models then just the triumphant of Gulliman.

 mew28 wrote:
I personally just wish I got more space marine models then just the triumphant of Gulliman.

I honestly can't think of any we really need, other then maybe a space marine terminator commander

I want using a Ynnead worshipping cult as my head canon for my Eldar/DE/Harlies since at least 2015, so I was SUPER stoked by the new releases. I haven't been disappointed at all.

BrianDavion wrote:

you complaina bout "band aid codex supplements" but whom has gotten a new codex, a genuine new codex, since getting a hard cover codex?

SM, Eldar, Imperial Knights.

Want to count the expanded Codexes that include formations etc? Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Chaos Daemons, Tau.

Funny that.

Want to count people who haven't had a new Codex since the start of 6th edition? CSM.

can't rightly say as I've not been around since 2nd, however I feel a Need to point something out..
Imperium of Man Codices: ~10 (this is approx as some codices you may not count, like Imperial Knights etc)

Chaos Space Marines Codices: 3 (and one is a Hybrid of the two)

so the IoM Having more special characters... KINDA MAKES SENSE.

now let's move onto special characters chaos has gotten since 6th edition (modern 40k more or less) Be'lakor, Cypher (no he's not being lost to chaos) Magnus. and remember it's still early, GW has already said this is gonna be a BIIIG year, and every faction is gonna get something, Chaos hasn't gotten their goodies yetif I was a betting man I'd be betting on more plastic cult troops, and more deamon primarchs.

Ok, let's simplify this for you.

2nd ed Ultramarines (SM) - Calgar, Tigurius, Cassius, Helveticus, Invictus, Legion of the Damned
2nd ed. Chaos Space Marines - Abaddon, Kharn, Fabius Bile, Ahriman, Cypher (So he is NOT a new SC you twit), Huron Blackheart

However....

7th ed. Special characters in the base Codex.

7th ed. SM - Calgar, Tigurius, Cassius, Sicarius, Telion, Chronus, Korsarro Khan, Vulkan He'stan, Shrike, Pedro Kanto, Lysander, Grimaldus, Helbrecht, LotD exist as a standard unit type.
6th ed. CSM - Abaddon, Kharn, Fabius Bile, Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus, Huron Blackheart

If you want to include characters from Supplements/Dataslates - Be'lakor, Cypher, Magnus the Red.

Ok. So. Let's look at this.

SM went from 5 Ultra specific characters and a special unit type to... 6 Ultra specific characters, 7 OTHER characters and their special unit type.
CSM went from 6 Characters to... 10 characters but 3 of them are not in the CORE CODEX.

So the Totals are SM +8, CSM +4 - and both are in a single book. Remember, the 2nd ed. Ultra book was the generic SM book. It represented all SMs.

The argument of 'Oh, but the 7th ed book represents different chapters' is bullgak as the CSM book has ALWAYS represented different Legions.

And this is just comparing the core books. Just the core books for the factions. Not factoring DA, BA or SW - technically those are seperate books and existed as such since 2nd ed.

'Oh, but CSM have 2 campaign supplements and 3 other supplements!'

Sure. Ok.

Black Legion - reprinted in Traitor Legions. Nothing more than a fluffbook.
Crimson Slaughter - the generic crappy 'Renegade' chapter no one wanted. Seriously. They didn't exist before 6th ed. This should have be Red Corsairs.

Traitor's Hate - reprinted entirely (with the exception of the Renegade Knight) in Traitor Legions.
Wrath of Magnus - Thousand Sons rules reprinted in Traitor Legions one week later

The Traitor Astartes powers (which are identical to the Imperial Counterparts, just with EEEEEEEVIL names) have been printed in 3 books so far.

And you really can't compare Thousand Sons releases to Black Templars players with Angels of Death.

Because as far as I can tell - BT players got Warlord Traits, can still use the Cataphractii and Contemptor and can still use every formation presented in that book (nothing saying those formations are X only).

Now, want to look at Thousand Sons?

Let's count Legions from Traitor's hate that can make the most of those new Thousand Sons!

Thousand Sons - Black Legion, Thousand Sons.
Scarab Occult - Black Legion, Thousand Sons
Magnus the Red - Thousand Sons.

But hey, let's look at those FANTASTIC DATASLATE CHARACTERS too. What Legions can use those?

Cypher - NONE
Be'lakor - NONE

Funny, my 'chapter tactic' equivalents put restrictions on my basic army construction.

Heck, let's look at the formations....

Wait, a third of them are Black Legion only, another third are Thousand Sons only and 2 of them are Emperor's Children or Death Guard only.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Do we know for sure that Cypher can't be used in a CSM army? Has anyone seen the book, are there restrictions?

Sorry if I am just catching up on this. I still have the Cypher dataslate and some Dark Angels models I used to use. Would love to know if they are no longer useful.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Do we know for sure that Cypher can't be used in a CSM army? Has anyone seen the book, are there restrictions?

Sorry if I am just catching up on this. I still have the Cypher dataslate and some Dark Angels models I used to use. Would love to know if they are no longer useful.

Cypher essentially has to be taken with his formation to be tacked on to any of the Traitor Legions armies - and even then as a seperate detachment. As they all exclude Unique characters except for X, Y and Z in some cases.

The Fallen Angels faction is, oddly, battle brothers with CSM and Imperium but only AoC with Renegade Knights and Come the Apocalypse with Daemons.

Also - we're not sure yet whether Fallen will still be CSM Chosen (as per the dataslate) or will now be built as DA Veterans (since GW are pushing the DA Veteran kit as Fallen on the website which has armaments that CSM can't take (Storm Shields and Storm Bolters for starters)).

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

you complaina bout "band aid codex supplements" but whom has gotten a new codex, a genuine new codex, since getting a hard cover codex?

SM, Eldar, Imperial Knights.

Also Dark Angels, and arguably Tau as well (even if the rules were basically a reprint of the old codex for the most part combined with the changes and additions form the 1st Campaign book).

Funny, my 'chapter tactic' equivalents put restrictions on my basic army construction.

this is differant from SM chapter tactics... how?

Also traitor's hate does have a slightly differant detachment, not reprinted elsewhere. not that important but useful in some circumnstances

I don't mind something like the primarch running around. It's that he's the same price as a daemon prince that gets me, not to mention the points in comparison to knights too (compared to both).

Just gonna sit and patiently await a new Necron release, I'm sure it'll be done in time.

BrianDavion wrote:

Funny, my 'chapter tactic' equivalents put restrictions on my basic army construction.

this is differant from SM chapter tactics... how?

How?

Well, for starters half the Traitor Legions 'chapter tactic equivalents' force you to take a Mark and prevent you from taking any units that have a different mark or cannot take that mark.
A good chunk of the other half cannot take any Marks or any Marked units.

There are no such restrictions on SM Chapter Tactics.

You pick your Chapter Tactic. You apply it to the army. The end. It doesn't prevent you from taking certain units. It doesn't force a mandatory points purchase across the entire army - and by the same respect it doesn't prevent you from making optional purchases/

Are you really that oblivious?

 ChazSexington wrote:
What did disappoint me is Cypher turning his coat.

Did he actually turn his coat? He has almost always been available as an option for DA and chaos armies simultaneously, so his allegiance has always been a question mark.

Im not bitter, I have just been totally put off reading the books.
Its really not my cup of tea this recent stuff, seems like no thought has gone into it.

Luckily for me there is plenty of other books to be getting on with.

They still make some nice miniatures that I will be buying as well.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Funny, my 'chapter tactic' equivalents put restrictions on my basic army construction.

this is differant from SM chapter tactics... how?

How?

Well, for starters half the Traitor Legions 'chapter tactic equivalents' force you to take a Mark and prevent you from taking any units that have a different mark or cannot take that mark.
A good chunk of the other half cannot take any Marks or any Marked units.

There are no such restrictions on SM Chapter Tactics.

You pick your Chapter Tactic. You apply it to the army. The end. It doesn't prevent you from taking certain units. It doesn't force a mandatory points purchase across the entire army - and by the same respect it doesn't prevent you from making optional purchases/

Are you really that oblivious?

wait so I could take crusader squads on my ultramarines all this time!?

for the record I have a sizeable iron warrior force, and it includes khrone bezekrers among em (I started with the battle force) so yeah sometimes the restirctions suck, but at the same time they seem to make sense. for people who are running fluffy armies I suspect traitor legions was pretty much "all good" as the limits they had self imposed anyway

BrianDavion wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Funny, my 'chapter tactic' equivalents put restrictions on my basic army construction.

this is differant from SM chapter tactics... how?

How?

Well, for starters half the Traitor Legions 'chapter tactic equivalents' force you to take a Mark and prevent you from taking any units that have a different mark or cannot take that mark.
A good chunk of the other half cannot take any Marks or any Marked units.

There are no such restrictions on SM Chapter Tactics.

You pick your Chapter Tactic. You apply it to the army. The end. It doesn't prevent you from taking certain units. It doesn't force a mandatory points purchase across the entire army - and by the same respect it doesn't prevent you from making optional purchases/

Are you really that oblivious?

wait so I could take crusader squads on my ultramarines all this time!?

for the record I have a sizeable iron warrior force, and it includes khrone bezekrers among em (I started with the battle force) so yeah sometimes the restirctions suck, but at the same time they seem to make sense. for people who are running fluffy armies I suspect traitor legions was pretty much "all good" as the limits they had self imposed anyway

I see you are going with the drawing very thin straws approach there and trying to be anal retentive when you know full well what I mean.

You're really no longer worth the discussion.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
>Chaos finally advancing - WOOO!
But only two factions get any updates and only one of those gets any buffs and the new special character is not as powerful as all that he is bigged up to be.

This, this sums it up.

Chaos seems....mediocre.

Traitor Legions? It's a band aid being stuck onto an ancient Codex. It doesn't really fix the problems for the most part - we're still using a crutch of a system there.

New Thousand Sons? Joy. That's like telling the SM players to be happy for new Thunderwolves. I'm sure your Ultras, DAs and BAs are super happy for Thunderwolves, right? Faction specific and arguably the weakest faction at that.

Magnus...sure, the kit is huge. And faction specific.

And his rules are....sigh.

Well. Ok.

A month later we get more survivability on 200 point Sister and Ad-Mech characters.

2 months later the Eldar come along and get the same new shinies.

Sprinkle in Roboute and Chaos are left scratching their heads.

In terms of Imperial SCs...well...let's look at that shall we.

Since 2nd ed....how many new Imperial SCs have there been compared to Chaos?

Chaos have gotten...Typhus and Lucius. We had Doomrider temporarily but he appears to have disappeared off the face of the Earth. We actually lost all the named Daemon Princes.

Imperials....well. Wow. Ok then.

I can only hope the next 'campaign' actually realises that the antagonists need to seriously be upped to the level of actual antagonists.

Because as it stands - Celestine, Cawl, the Ynnead Triumvirate and Roboute literally crap all over anything Chaos can bring out to play with ease. And GW are trying to tell us that fluffwise CSM are so terrifying it forces an alliance of all those? Are you kidding me?

It literally feels like, current power levels of books compared that CSM are literally just hordes of fodder to die in droves. Traitor Legions was a band-aid. Not a gods damned miracle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:
The grey Knights got a character that's kinda worthless when you realize it's 240 points for a T4 model with 3 wounds and no eternal warrior of 3+ invuln.

However you can freely slot in any of the Imperial Triumvirate and I bet you'll be able to freely slot in the SM Triumvirate just the same.

So basically GK just got Roboute, Celestine and Cawl if you really want.

so what your saying is that imperium players get to run kaldor Draigo with their Death Stars, yes? Right now grey Knights have only 3 reasonably priced units. Kaldor, librarians, and dreadknights, and Liberians are better when they're normal marines. I'm sorry, I know it's easy to freely put in cawl or Celestine, but in the end you already are using custodians instead of paladins, tac squads over strike squads, and devistators over purginators space marine assault termies over grey knight ones, and what your left with is is a space marine armies with dreadknights tax and kaldor and a librarian, you might wonder why your even playing grey Knights.

I just thought for once grey Knights might get a unit that isn't overpriced to the point of being crap, but I was wrong, and I'm bitter because of it. It's not like GW could try to fix codex kaldor's baby carrier service. Apperently "elite" stands for a 3rd too many points overcosted to be viable.