Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

And then 8th edition aka AGE OF PRIMARCHS! !!!

Am I bitter? Of course I am. I am a Chaos player at heart. Gathering storm just buffed units that didnt need buffs. You had Mechanicus getting buffed, you have imperial death stars getting buffed (celestine) you have inquisitor i have a bolter crossbow greyfax and you get a primarch. you also get two super detachments and one of our chaos characters. Eldar literally got so overly overpowered that i get salty every time i look at competitve lists. Bare in mind that I am a competitve player. Fluff to me doesnt matter in terms of gameplay. Chaos needed a buff. We chaos players have the right to complain because you imperials have always been served rules on a golden platter (get it?) we had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to even think about competing to tourneys. Hell, you imperials can mix units. we can only mix units with different legion tactics, we cant mix daemons in with our marines (except for KDK but thats not what we wanted) yea sure your black templars and your sisters didnt get the buff they needed and i understand that. But our competitve viability as a codex in general is extremely mono build. I thank GW for their expanding of the plot and their new policies but i need more from them in terms of army stuff. Where are the tyranids? DE? SoB? instead we get rowboat gurlyman (although i love his fluff) and mister overpriced grey knight. Dont even get me started on the reborn warhost. I love this game. I love Chaos and its so hard for me to put it down because of mono builds. Sorry for ranting. IRON WITHIN IRON WITHOUT

 -v10mega wrote:
Am I bitter? Of course I am. I am a Chaos player at heart. Gathering storm just buffed units that didnt need buffs. You had Mechanicus getting buffed, you have imperial death stars getting buffed (celestine) you have inquisitor i have a bolter crossbow greyfax and you get a primarch. you also get two super detachments and one of our chaos characters. Eldar literally got so overly overpowered that i get salty every time i look at competitve lists. Bare in mind that I am a competitve player. Fluff to me doesnt matter in terms of gameplay. Chaos needed a buff. We chaos players have the right to complain because you imperials have always been served rules on a golden platter (get it?) we had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to even think about competing to tourneys. Hell, you imperials can mix units. we can only mix units with different legion tactics, we cant mix daemons in with our marines (except for KDK but thats not what we wanted) yea sure your black templars and your sisters didnt get the buff they needed and i understand that. But our competitve viability as a codex in general is extremely mono build. I thank GW for their expanding of the plot and their new policies but i need more from them in terms of army stuff. Where are the tyranids? DE? SoB? instead we get rowboat gurlyman (although i love his fluff) and mister overpriced grey knight. Dont even get me started on the reborn warhost. I love this game. I love Chaos and its so hard for me to put it down because of mono builds. Sorry for ranting. IRON WITHIN IRON WITHOUT

As a guard player I would like to point out that we got nothing, unless you count the loss of two more of our rapidly dwindling special characters.
[edit]
And this was supposed to be our big moment as well, the last stand of the Cadians. But nope, Marines got stuff, Eldar got stuff, Mechanicus got stuff but all we got was the loss of two more characters. At least you got SOMETHING.

You got castellans of the imperium and a bunch of new characters to put in your IG list. Honest question, I cant remember what we got. Seriously my memory is pretty bad. But i understand your pain, im just saying that GW has buffed the wrong people. Gathering storm should have buffed SoB and IG (maybe templars too). But I want chaos super detachment (who wouldn't?) that would be really nice.

 -v10mega wrote:
You got castellans of the imperium and a bunch of new characters to put in your IG list. Honest question, I cant remember what we got. Seriously my memory is pretty bad. But i understand your pain, im just saying that GW has buffed the wrong people. Gathering storm should have buffed SoB and IG (maybe templars too).

We got Cawl, Greyfax, and Celestine. We don't know how Guilliman or Voldus work, and Cypher has always been able to be taken by non-Dark Angels Imperial armies.

Also, saying "you got Castellans of the Imperium" is ignoring the fact that it has a mandated requirement that you take choices from two different codices.

But I want chaos super detachment (who wouldn't?) that would be really nice.

It's called "Traitor Legions". It contains super detachments for each of the Traitor Legions.

 -v10mega wrote:
You got castellans of the imperium and a bunch of new characters to put in your IG list. Honest question, I cant remember what we got. Seriously my memory is pretty bad. But i understand your pain, im just saying that GW has buffed the wrong people. Gathering storm should have buffed SoB and IG (maybe templars too). But I want chaos super detachment (who wouldn't?) that would be really nice.

Guard got the biggest shaft in all of this. Chaos at least got Magnus and a bunch of new splat books. Guard got new units if you include taking guys that are strictly non-Guard as "new units".

Guard really should have been the shining moment of this event, so if anyone gets to feel left out, it's the Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:

But I want chaos super detachment (who wouldn't?) that would be really nice.

It's called "Traitor Legions". It contains super detachments for each of the Traitor Legions.

Especially because a lot of those detachments are really, really damn good.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:
You got castellans of the imperium and a bunch of new characters to put in your IG list. Honest question, I cant remember what we got. Seriously my memory is pretty bad. But i understand your pain, im just saying that GW has buffed the wrong people. Gathering storm should have buffed SoB and IG (maybe templars too). But I want chaos super detachment (who wouldn't?) that would be really nice.

Guard got the biggest shaft in all of this. Chaos at least got Magnus and a bunch of new splat books. Guard got new units if you include taking guys that are strictly non-Guard as "new units".

Guard really should have been the shining moment of this event, so if anyone gets to feel left out, it's the Guard

I won't lie. I was a bit grumpy at first about the lack of Guard characters. But then after awhile, I came to peace with it.

Why?
Because Guard having unique characters is a pain in the butt. We don't get an option to field "just" Creed or "just" Kell as it stands right now. We have to take the Company Command Squad and then we pay to upgrade one of the models within it to Creed or Kell or whoever.

I would much rather, if they're going to force me into something like that, they give me the whole squad as the points cost.

Example:
Commander Tim, Savior of Chumbawumba. Known for his place at the front of the combat, Tim is an officer who rose through the ranks from an artillery background. He and his Command Squad lead the Tubthumpers into battle, taking position after position with his Scion bodyguards and his trusty Ogryn Dave, before raining artillery fire down on the next position.
Commander Tim comes with his trusted command squad.
Unit Composition: 10 models(Tim and his 8 man Scion Command Squad with a Master of Ordnance and Dave, Tim's trusty Ogryn)
Scion Vox-Caster(Hot-Shot Lasgun)
Master of Ordnance(Lasgun)
Dave(Slab Shield and Grenadier Gauntlet)
Scions x2(Hot-Shot Lasguns)
Scion Medic
Scions x3 (Special weapons; only optional bits in the unit as Tim's Scions draw weapons that are needed before battle)

That's the kind of officer purchase I can get behind for IG.

 Jaxler wrote:

I just thought for once grey Knights might get a unit that isn't overpriced to the point of being crap, but I was wrong, and I'm bitter because of it. It's not like GW could try to fix codex kaldor's baby carrier service. Apperently "elite" stands for a 3rd too many points overcosted to be viable.

Hey, I just thought for once that Chaos might actually get buffed to 7th ed. levels and actually pose a threat.

Because looking at what we've seen for Super Smurf, Celestine and Cawl I kind of wonder....

How exactly is Chaos a threat again?

I mean, let's put all our special characters on the field.

And watch the CSM flail and fall down in droves because apparently neither Kharn (who survived the Siege of Terra after being run over by a land raider and having a palace wall collapse on him), Lucius (you know, the guy who never dies) or Typhus (who happens to be the Host of THE Destroyer Plague that crippled even a Primarch) deserve Eternal Warrior or some ability to stand back up....

Magnus also forgot what Power Armour was. Silly Maggie.

Meanwhile we get a flying bint who can cry her gal pals back to life and keep getting up herself and has Eternal Warrior and Super Smurf, who's tougher than necessary with a 2+/3++ T6 and 6 wounds AND Eternal Warrior who can also get himself back up.

Then you have the Ynnari, consisting of Eldar No-Names who suddenly decided to become plot relevant and all also happen to have Eternal Warrior as well.

Oh, let's not forget that everyone and their dog found their At Initiative AP 2 weapons with some ID and SD tacked on for shiggles.


I'm honestly wondering if they set up a 100k per side battle how Chaos would survive to Turn 3. I really am.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Example:
Commander Tim, Savior of Chumbawumba. Known for his place at the front of the combat, Tim is an officer who rose through the ranks from an artillery background. He and his Command Squad lead the Tubthumpers into battle, taking position after position with his Scion bodyguards and his trusty Ogryn Dave, before raining artillery fire down on the next position.
Commander Tim comes with his trusted command squad.

Ok sir. This I could get behind.

Commander Tim will save the day. I call it now.

8th ed = Warhammer 40,000 : Age of Tim

With all of the Eldar factions in the recent campaign book, they'll all be in the same mega-codex when 8th hits. Isn't that what happened with AoS hit?

Nope.

 Skinnereal wrote:
With all of the Eldar factions in the recent campaign book, they'll all be in the same mega-codex when 8th hits. Isn't that what happened with AoS hit?

Kinda/sorta?

What we got was two things:
1) "Legacy" lists. These were the downloadable PDFs that still retained their old names; Wood Elves, High Elves, Dark Elves, whatever. Those are still available if you know how to find them.
2) "Grand Alliance" lists. This is where things got different. The Grand Alliance books were softcover books containing everything from the Legacy lists, but altered. High Elves became several different factions with units spread throughout. Order Draconis(Dragonlords, Dragon Blades[renamed Dragon Princes of Caledor]), Eldritch Council(Swordmasters, Loremaster, Archmages+Archmage on Dragon), Swifthawk Agents(Shadow Warriors, Chariots, Skycutters), Lion Rangers(White Lions and Lion Chariots), and Phoenix Temple.

I think it is rather telling that if someone looks at the Fallen ally table?

You have "Dark Eldar, Eldar, Harlequins, and Ynnari". That matches relatively closely to the way that AoS does "keywords". It's not unbelievable that we might see them getting subdivided into something like:

Dark Eldar->Wych Cults(Wyches, Succubi, Venoms, Beastmasters+ beasts) , Spies & Messengers(Scourges and Mandrakes), Speedsters(Hellions & Reavers plus aircraft), Kabalites(Warriors, Archons, Raiders, Ravagers)

Eldar->Wraith, Outcasts(Rangers), Warrior Paths(Phoenix Lords and their temples), Militia (War Walkers, Guardians, Fire Prisms/Falcons), Seer Path(Warlocks & Farseers)

Effectively it would be the same army potential, but it lets them do bonuses for specific keywords.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

I just thought for once grey Knights might get a unit that isn't overpriced to the point of being crap, but I was wrong, and I'm bitter because of it. It's not like GW could try to fix codex kaldor's baby carrier service. Apperently "elite" stands for a 3rd too many points overcosted to be viable.

Hey, I just thought for once that Chaos might actually get buffed to 7th ed. levels and actually pose a threat.

Because looking at what we've seen for Super Smurf, Celestine and Cawl I kind of wonder....

How exactly is Chaos a threat again?

I mean, let's put all our special characters on the field.

And watch the CSM flail and fall down in droves because apparently neither Kharn (who survived the Siege of Terra after being run over by a land raider and having a palace wall collapse on him), Lucius (you know, the guy who never dies) or Typhus (who happens to be the Host of THE Destroyer Plague that crippled even a Primarch) deserve Eternal Warrior or some ability to stand back up....

Magnus also forgot what Power Armour was. Silly Maggie.

Meanwhile we get a flying bint who can cry her gal pals back to life and keep getting up herself and has Eternal Warrior and Super Smurf, who's tougher than necessary with a 2+/3++ T6 and 6 wounds AND Eternal Warrior who can also get himself back up.

Then you have the Ynnari, consisting of Eldar No-Names who suddenly decided to become plot relevant and all also happen to have Eternal Warrior as well.

Oh, let's not forget that everyone and their dog found their At Initiative AP 2 weapons with some ID and SD tacked on for shiggles.


I'm honestly wondering if they set up a 100k per side battle how Chaos would survive to Turn 3. I really am.

Seriously, have you looked at the Traitor Legion detachments? Yeah, Guilliman, Cawl, and Celestine are tough, but you can lock them down with waves of fearless cultists, the thing CSM has been doing for years.

If you're just comparing straight up special characters, then yeah, CSM lose hard. But look at the new Traitor Legion detachments and how crazy powerful some of them would be at 100k.

I believe there are another 3 gathering storm books in the works, and I'll be more than surprised if chaos doesn't get a triumvirate.

Hey, at least the Fallen faction is battle brothers with Chaos Space Marines. So you do actually get Cypher.

But I'm just hoping after the 'gathering' storm 8th edition is going to drop the ACTUAL storm, and that's when they'll release a new wave (possible codex) of chaos. If they don't then they'll be shooting themselves in the foot.

Seriously if 8th edition drops and its just more marine gak people will freak out like we've never before seen.

I mean, sure, maybe a little bit.

Pales in comparison to the grousing I've seen about it online. That has, by far, been the most unpleasant part of this whole thing. People have been going on about how the sky is falling and Age of Sigmar is upon us for every release in the past two years, I do not look forward to the kind of frenzy they're going to whip themselves into when 8th edition finally does drop.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
I mean, sure, maybe a little bit.

Pales in comparison to the grousing I've seen about it online. That has, by far, been the most unpleasant part of this whole thing. People have been going on about how the sky is falling and Age of Sigmar is upon us for every release in the past two years, I do not look forward to the kind of frenzy they're going to whip themselves into when 8th edition finally does drop.

I hope 8th drops, everyone freaks out, and we can pick up a lot of armies for cheap


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Don Savik wrote:
Hey, at least the Fallen faction is battle brothers with Chaos Space Marines. So you do actually get Cypher.

But I'm just hoping after the 'gathering' storm 8th edition is going to drop the ACTUAL storm, and that's when they'll release a new wave (possible codex) of chaos. If they don't then they'll be shooting themselves in the foot.

Seriously if 8th edition drops and its just more marine gak people will freak out like we've never before seen.

"A new wave (possible codex) of chaos"

"just more marine gak"

I mean, they're starting to get away from that, but CSM has been getting a ton of marine hand me downs.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:
You got castellans of the imperium and a bunch of new characters to put in your IG list. Honest question, I cant remember what we got. Seriously my memory is pretty bad. But i understand your pain, im just saying that GW has buffed the wrong people. Gathering storm should have buffed SoB and IG (maybe templars too). But I want chaos super detachment (who wouldn't?) that would be really nice.

Guard got the biggest shaft in all of this. Chaos at least got Magnus and a bunch of new splat books. Guard got new units if you include taking guys that are strictly non-Guard as "new units".

Guard really should have been the shining moment of this event, so if anyone gets to feel left out, it's the Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:

But I want chaos super detachment (who wouldn't?) that would be really nice.

It's called "Traitor Legions". It contains super detachments for each of the Traitor Legions.

Especially because a lot of those detachments are really, really damn good.

Magnus and Traitor Legions were not gathering storm good friend. I am STRICTLY speaking about gathering storm. ps. Decurions does not equal super detachment (castellens)
you got a new detachment that you can purely choose to play as imperial guard, whats stopping you? imagine recycling vets and recycling valkyries or blob guard that can also be recycled. you can run obsec lemun russes with coteaz. We get failbaddon the armless getting punked by celestine. What a victory!

My first and largest army(s) is Chaos both marines and daemons.
I am pretty much used to getting the shaft.

Oddly, I have been rather excited about these Triumvirate kits, the models just scream "challenge accepted".
Cypher makes me very happy going turncoat on me or not.
Voldus will sit nicely with my other GK guys, it is nice to have a powerful leader that is not stuck in the warp (I wanted something to fight my chaos... they were getting out of hand).
As to Girlyman? Big model, nice detail, there is nothing wrong with having a go with that model.
Archmagos Cawl is enough to get me cross-eyed but I think he will be the most challenging to get right.

The game is pretty unbalanced as it stands, so dialing it up to stupid levels is to expected right?

More marine stuff meaning space marines, not csm. Hand-me-downs isn't good enough at this point. Chaos still has garbage options for transports compared to the rest of the armies who evolved. Only one flier, outdated chaos space marine models, really really outdated havocs, outdated bikers, outdated chaos lords/sorcerers, etc etc. Their model range is just old.

At least give them an assault vehicle that's not a landraider. Then maybe people would take khorne berserkers.

 -v10mega wrote:

Magnus and Traitor Legions were not gathering storm good friend. I am STRICTLY speaking about gathering storm. ps. Decurions does not equal super detachment (castellens)

Then be more specific. "Super Detachment" is a term commonly used as a substitute for Decurion.

Also, I really think you need to actually read Traitor Legions.

you got a new detachment that you can purely choose to play as imperial guard, whats stopping you? imagine recycling vets and recycling valkyries or blob guard that can also be recycled. you can run obsec lemun russes with coteaz.

You do know that Coteaz isn't Imperial Guard, right?

And that Castellans of the Imperium specifically requires you to have units from at least two different factions, right?
You cannot have a "purely" Imperial Guard army. Read the book.

We get failbaddon the armless getting punked by celestine. What a victory!

You get:
-Cadian Gate forced open
-Daemons corrupting a flipping Craftworld
-The Imperium, Eldar, and Mechanicus having to come together to revive a Primarch--on Macragge which is under siege by the Black Legion.

It's cute, of course, to talk about "Failbaddon the Armless" but it's not cute to have no clue what you're talking about.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:

Magnus and Traitor Legions were not gathering storm good friend. I am STRICTLY speaking about gathering storm. ps. Decurions does not equal super detachment (castellens)

Then be more specific. "Super Detachment" is a term commonly used as a substitute for Decurion.

Also, I really think you need to actually read Traitor Legions.

you got a new detachment that you can purely choose to play as imperial guard, whats stopping you? imagine recycling vets and recycling valkyries or blob guard that can also be recycled. you can run obsec lemun russes with coteaz.

You do know that Coteaz isn't Imperial Guard, right?

And that Castellans of the Imperium specifically requires you to have units from at least two different factions, right?
You cannot have a "purely" Imperial Guard army. Read the book.

We get failbaddon the armless getting punked by celestine. What a victory!

You get:
-Cadian Gate forced open
-Daemons corrupting a flipping Craftworld
-The Imperium, Eldar, and Mechanicus having to come together to revive a Primarch--on Macragge which is under siege by the Black Legion.

It's cute, of course, to talk about "Failbaddon the Armless" but it's not cute to have no clue what you're talking about.

Don't bother. No matter how much good stuff CSM get, they will always be bad. Meanwhile, Dark Eldar and Orks cry alone in the corner.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Funny, my 'chapter tactic' equivalents put restrictions on my basic army construction.

this is differant from SM chapter tactics... how?

How?

Well, for starters half the Traitor Legions 'chapter tactic equivalents' force you to take a Mark and prevent you from taking any units that have a different mark or cannot take that mark.
A good chunk of the other half cannot take any Marks or any Marked units.

There are no such restrictions on SM Chapter Tactics.

You pick your Chapter Tactic. You apply it to the army. The end. It doesn't prevent you from taking certain units. It doesn't force a mandatory points purchase across the entire army - and by the same respect it doesn't prevent you from making optional purchases/

Are you really that oblivious?

'
Wow your complaining about needing to pay for your chapter tactics when your models are cheaper by base and have way stronger chapter tactics for the most part. Also Chapter tactics dose stop you from taking units that are unqiue to the other chapter tactics. Let me know when I can run Cato in my Iron hands or thunder wolfs in my blood angels.

You can run Thunder Wolves with Blood Angels. Just ally them in.

And even with Traitor Legions, CSM are weaker than SM.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 -v10mega wrote:

Magnus and Traitor Legions were not gathering storm good friend. I am STRICTLY speaking about gathering storm. ps. Decurions does not equal super detachment (castellens)

Then be more specific. "Super Detachment" is a term commonly used as a substitute for Decurion.

Also, I really think you need to actually read Traitor Legions.

you got a new detachment that you can purely choose to play as imperial guard, whats stopping you? imagine recycling vets and recycling valkyries or blob guard that can also be recycled. you can run obsec lemun russes with coteaz.

You do know that Coteaz isn't Imperial Guard, right?

And that Castellans of the Imperium specifically requires you to have units from at least two different factions, right?
You cannot have a "purely" Imperial Guard army. Read the book.

We get failbaddon the armless getting punked by celestine. What a victory!

You get:
-Cadian Gate forced open
-Daemons corrupting a flipping Craftworld
-The Imperium, Eldar, and Mechanicus having to come together to revive a Primarch--on Macragge which is under siege by the Black Legion.

It's cute, of course, to talk about "Failbaddon the Armless" but it's not cute to have no clue what you're talking about.

Don't bother. No matter how much good stuff CSM get, they will always be bad. Meanwhile, Dark Eldar and Orks cry alone in the corner.

Alright feth logic! I can joke about Failbaddon all i want. He has a stupid backstory, stupid model and stupid motives. No one that is a chaos worshipper cares for Failbaddon (to my knowledge) I have read traitor legions and my average is a c+ at most. We get buffs to the cabal star and thats it. I am talking from a competitve standpoint i see no viability in Traitor Legions. You can polish a turd but at the end of the day it is still a turd. You get castellans and put coteaz in. Thats one non IG model for your entire army. I get it, IG got fethed and i know your a little salty that the CSM guys are whining but remember that our kit line, our viability is a lot less. You have the beauty of having the best allies in the game. We cant even join units with our battle brothers (Chaos Daemons). Traitor Legions was a buff but competitively speaking we didnt get much out of it. And by competitve, i mean the top 1% of players who are WAAC players like me. (here comes the flak) btw i arrange competitve games i dont suddenly bring a cheesy list to a friendly game. But you did get me on the Castellans thing so ill give you that.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You can run Thunder Wolves with Blood Angels. Just ally them in.

And even with Traitor Legions, CSM are weaker than SM.

That's not the point he's getting at though.

The argument for a long while has been about the "superfriends" lists. That got shanked by the last round of FAQs, where placing any non-Chapter Tactic model in with Chapter Tactics units removes the CT.

Ex:
Thunderwolf mounted Iron Priest joins a unit of White Scars Bikers. They now lose their Chapter Tactic, where before it granted to the Iron Priest.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You can run Thunder Wolves with Blood Angels. Just ally them in.

And even with Traitor Legions, CSM are weaker than SM.

That honestly remains to be seen. Nurgle units get a massive boost, and Magnus is a giant force multiplier, in the way Bel'akor is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -v10mega wrote:
I get it, IG got fethed and i know your a little salty that the CSM guys are whining

Oh man, ain't that the truth. Spell check is your friend.

^ you're

sorry

Magnus is not a Force Multiplier like Bel'akor is. Bel'akor has buffs. Magnus does not-Magnus needs support, Bel'akor doesn't, as much.

Bel'akor is overpriced for what he does, he is also super squishy and anyone (with the right tools) can take him down. Just a little bit of ignore cover... Magnus is good but thats all you see in CSM. Nurgle is good but with all the Grav thats going on we get our FnP and thats it. Our toughness and armor go away.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Magnus is not a Force Multiplier like Bel'akor is. Bel'akor has buffs. Magnus does not-Magnus needs support, Bel'akor doesn't, as much.

And Magnus and Bel'akor are nowhere near as potent Force Multipliers as...say...Roboute, Celestine, Cawl or the Yncarne.

For one Canticles, Blessing, Command Traits and Buff Bubbles don't require having the right amount of warp charge dice, being able to use them and not being screwed by, say, a 140 point Assassin stood nearby having a sandwich.