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Have been waiting to ask this question. Now that Traitor Legions has been out for a while, why does everyone seem to like it so much?

Admittedly, I play Chaos and the book has captured my imagination. Am starting a new Death Guard army that may take the place of my "Unlucky Thirteenth" Black Legion force I have been playing since 5th edition.

But I wonder if the book actually lives up to the hype it's experienced post-release. A lot of people felt the book was putting CSMs on a new competitive tier, not as far up as Space Marine chapters, but close.

Has it lived up to expectations? Here are my criticisms of the book a month out. None of these should be considered damning, they are all offered in the spirit of coming back to reality.

- Most Legion command benefits only benefit infantry. There's really nothing there to buff war machines or other big guns.

- Legion rules do not act as force multipliers as they do with other armies, they are simple buffs. While it's nice to get VotLW for free, it's not as nice as free transports, free heavy weapons, tactics that let you repeat combat phases, or other mechanics that significantly alter the effectiveness of an army throughout the game. The Chaos Boon table requires that you destroy something to receive a force multiplier, and it only applies to a single character.

- The unique legion formations are too expensive. In most cases, taking full advantage means spending more than 70% of your points on troops. It does not leave enough room for other units.

- The HQ taxes on most formations exceed the usefulness of the special rules. I realize this is more a complaint about traitor's hate but - seriously - is it worth it to take 3 Heldrakes in a formation for a -2 leadership buff? Or a warpsmith to run Daemonforge twice in a game?

- The Legion specific rules ignore the most challenging aspects to each army. TS are still overcosted. Noise Marines still don't have relentless and their awesome guns still have salvo. Khorne Berzerkers still don't have enough punch to justify taking them over normal CSMs. Nurgle Marines are almost as good as Plague Marines for the points (but, admittedly, they have improved.)

- Many of the Legion command benefits are hobbled by a lack of tactics that could maximize their effectiveness. The Black Legion Speartip deepstrike rules are just good enough to get units on the board, but not to control where they land. The World Eaters movement buffs are just good enough to get units close to a first turn assault, but not quite enough to get there. The Kakophoni special rules would be great if only there was a way to shoot without moving. The Word Bearers rules around manifesting on summoning would be awesome if they had more psykers.

My take is that this book benefits people who play 1500+ point armies consisting mostly of infantry against opponents who mostly do the same. It's too one dimensional to really elevate the effectiveness of CSMs overall and taking full advantage of the new formations comes at the expense of other important parts of the army.

I got smashed by a necron decurion on the weekend, in a purge the alien with my death guard. It wasn't even close. Fun game though.

That being said, I think the hype just came over the fact that you could:

- Play more Legions playable

- Added fluffy rules

- Gave bonus rules to what we were using anyway (in a lot of cases).


It is far from top tier, but it has gone a long way to give Chaos players what they desire.

Chaos Marines are a Worf Effect army?

Because it's SOMETHING. Something good! Not that good... But definitely not bad.

For one of the worst factions in the game it was a small mercy.

Sadly I have a feeling codex CSM, the next version, will, like the last codex release, tie in to the release of 8th edition and yet again be surpassed by every other codex in the ongoing arms race.

Honestly, if Word Bearers had Crusader standard and Iron Warriors had Intractable Brotherhood standard, it would be almost THE perfect supplement.
Alpha Legion need just one more rule like MTC for their Veterans and we would be golden. Oh and Thousand Sons having Fearless standard along with their other brothers of the Gods.

It was quite a boon if you used the codex standard. Now obviously there's some power imbalance from Legion to Legion, but they at least make sense, get bonuses that make sense, and they actually function like intended. You want to feel like Alpha Legion? You can actually make it happen for the first time in a while!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Chaos Marines are a Worf Effect army?

More like one that suffers from Badass Decay.

In second edition, CSMs were the little darlings that could field a Chaos Lord who would eat one tactical squad a round without taking a wound. They could summon enough stuff that the army would double in size as the game went on.

In fourth point five edition, we saw them at their most enjoyable: less overpowered, but filled with fluffy options that made the army less one dimensional than all others.

Then came fifth edition. Berzerker spam seemed to be the only viable playlist, at least for me. They could take on just about anything unless it had too many tanks. Possessed, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines started getting blacklisted. Spawn were considered awful because of the mindless rule.

Then came sixth edition. The Codex promised some kind of renaissance in GW rulesmaking, but we found out CSMs were the only 'balanced' Codex. Every other Codex got stronger while cultists became CSM's only viable troop choice.

Then came seventh edition, new rules for flying creatures, new models for flyers, D weapons, grav, free transports, Eldar shennanigans, etc. CSMs actively compete with Orks and IG for the status of worst Codex.

Traitor's Hate and Traitor Legions bring CSMs in line with 7th edition, but I wonder how much people enjoy the new rules now that they have been out for a while.

I had high expectations for my Black Legion Speartip before I remembered Abaddon's 600 point melee Terminator squad can be destroyed by rolling a one on a deep strike mishap and there's nothing I can do to stop it. While I had a few games where things mostly went right, I realized there's only about a 30% chance of them landing within 6 inches of where they should. Not to mention a couple squads of gretchin can actually outshoot that same 600 point squad.

This is not a complaint, I will definitely keep playing around with my Black Legion list. It's more the realization that there was a lot of hype surrounding the release, and a desire to put the books in their proper place.

The short answer.

Read at least the first 5 HH books and then you will know why

You just listed a bunch or rules critiques.

In my opinion the book was so well received because it gave Chaos players a way to play a list that didn't actively punish the player who was trying to play a fluffy/themed list. As much as some people like to believe that the reason CSM players pine for the 3.5 dex is because we are all a bunch of WAAC players who just want an OP army, the real reason is that we missed being able to play a fun list that didn't end in an auto-loss. This new book provided that to some extent, at least a lot more than the base codex did. Some legions ended up being much better than others rules-wise, but at least there is an actual difference between the legions besides what color you had painted them.

That or you'll lose respect for GW's writing staff.

I jumped ship from KDK to World Eaters because I wanted to play angry marines not angry deamons. My current list has 3 units of havocs, 3 units of CSM, and 3 units of bikes, and it scares the gak out of my opponent when all of that is halfway across the board turn one. Could it have been more competitive? Sure. Does it make fluffy armies playable? It sure does!

Why did everybody like it?
Almost everybody with a even a passing interest in chaos space marines is interested in at least one of the great nine traitor legions.
They are all a part of the core 40k setting, the horus heresy and its consequences. Always have been.
So it shouldn't come as a surprise that everybody wants to play as their favourite legion.
Something that hasn't been possible since 3.5. sure you can dress them up and pretend and build the army in a way that fits your head canon, but it still feels hollow.
Then couple that with the fact that our codex has become increasingly bland and generic over time as we watched everybody else get new toys.

Legions gave us back a some identity. It gave us actual rules for the various legions and not just that, but formations as well as objectives and relics. Hell even some legion specific units.
For csm players that's almost on the level of plastic sisters kind of good news.

Has it lived up to expectations?
I for one wasn't expecting a whole lot (though ever hopeful). Honestly though? As far as GW goes it's probably about the best we could have gotten short of an actual codex.
It actually makes you think about army composition again. All Legions are now interesting and fun to play again. So yes, I'd say it matches and exceeds expectations in that sense.
Of course it wouldn't be GW if it didn't disappoint in equal measure, but overall it's close enough to a good book to keep me content.

because it's "chapter tactics" for chaos space marines. it's something that they WANTED.

While not even close to fixing many of the problems CSM has I managed to get back a few older things for Emperors Children that's just cool to use.

Go read imperial agents, when you're done vomiting and can get back to the safety of traitor legions you'll get just how awesome that book actually is.

 Roknar wrote:
Why did everybody like it?
Almost everybody with a even a passing interest in chaos space marines is interested in at least one of the great nine traitor legions.
They are all a part of the core 40k setting, the horus heresy and its consequences. Always have been.
So it shouldn't come as a surprise that everybody wants to play as their favourite legion.
Something that hasn't been possible since 3.5. sure you can dress them up and pretend and build the army in a way that fits your head canon, but it still feels hollow.
Then couple that with the fact that our codex has become increasingly bland and generic over time as we watched everybody else get new toys.

Legions gave us back a some identity. It gave us actual rules for the various legions and not just that, but formations as well as objectives and relics. Hell even some legion specific units.
For csm players that's almost on the level of plastic sisters kind of good news.

Why people think snowflake rules are required to have fluffy legion armies? Didn't need those in 2nd ed either.

Hopefully at least legion tactics works out better for chaos than loyals to make fluffy armies then. All chapter tactics have resulted for loyals is very UNFLUFFY armies that goes against fluff of the chapters.

I think a part of it is that it does, as you say, allow people to actually use their infantry - Most armies, especially MEQs, you can't actually use regular squads, because they're AWFUL. Regular Space Marines? Awful. CSM without legion rules? Awful. You can run a blue tide, but that's not actually a good army, it's just hard to kill and able to hold objectives all day, every day.

I play against a CSM guy regularly, and he's thrilled to be able to actually field havocs and regular CSM squads in a regular army without it being so weak as to be entirely useless.

It's been said already, but I'll echo it again: Flavour. There's actually a difference between a Night Lords army and a Word Bearers army other than they're different colours. Yes, the sucky units still suck and a very large portion of the book is still overpriced trash and the traditional favourites (yes, I'm looking at you Nurgle) easily got some of the best rules in the book, there's a reason to take chosen in an alpha legion force, you can summon daemons more easily with word bearers, black legion are better at deep striking than other legions and more than anything else I think, "normal" CSM (the unit) aren't so thoroughly overshadowed by cutists now that they're Ld10 and have a bunch of rules (for most legions) tacked on.

I'm reasonably sure that nobody ever claimed that legions made us top tier, but we're no longer an auto-lose for having the audacity to put chaos models on the table like we used to be, while certain build can be a massive pain for some armies to deal with - WE rush, DG decurion and the TS War Coven have all claimed scalps that they would have had not lasted 3 turns against before TL came out. Can you imagine an eldar army suddenly scared of a world eater infantry army 6 months ago? It's not about being OP cheese, it's about running the legion the way you want, the way it's intended to be run, and having the rules generally work for you instead of against you.

To a man dying of thirst, tapwater will taste sweeter than wine.

I agree with most of the above posts, it took a terrible and turned it playable. Compare how much special rules ordinary SM get vs CSM with and without the supplement.

Geronimo509 wrote:
You just listed a bunch or rules critiques.

In my opinion the book was so well received because it gave Chaos players a way to play a list that didn't actively punish the player who was trying to play a fluffy/themed list. As much as some people like to believe that the reason CSM players pine for the 3.5 dex is because we are all a bunch of WAAC players who just want an OP army, the real reason is that we missed being able to play a fun list that didn't end in an auto-loss. This new book provided that to some extent, at least a lot more than the base codex did. Some legions ended up being much better than others rules-wise, but at least there is an actual difference between the legions besides what color you had painted them.

Yes, this is exactly it.

I feel like Death Guard got the best rules. Getting stealth, FNP re-roll 1's and relentless is good no matter what army you are facing.

Thousand Sons are kinda meh. They should have gotten something to buff them in the psychic phase (like, ALOT), but just instead have to waste at least one charge per unit to get the ward save buff, can cast an extra spell(whoopdey do) and can re-roll the perils (ok that's pretty good). I would have like something to give us more warp dice, or something to lower casting costs (besides the dumb formations).

Looking at the rules for the TS I thought they got the better end of the stick. Ok their psychic powers were kinda cr*ppy but, hey, every other model's rules weren't bad, even the nice TS marines (although, yes, they are quite pricey)

 Loremaster Of Awesomeness wrote:
Looking at the rules for the TS I thought they got the better end of the stick. Ok their psychic powers were kinda cr*ppy but, hey, every other model's rules weren't bad, even the nice TS marines (although, yes, they are quite pricey)

I think that's kinda the big issue. Our lore sucks and rubrics cost a fortune and accomplish nothing. Every now and then you get them to rapid fire on a group of marines and it feels good to see them roasted.

It didn't come close to 'fixing' every grievance I had with the CSM book, but it had a good crack at it. Certainly went much further than I was expecting, which was a pleasant surprise.
I would still consider the book in severe need of improvement, but at least it is now playable in a competitive format. It's been given a good shot of steroids, which is appreciated. However there are still some issues I'd like to fix. However, these go far beyond what I would ever expect from a supplement and would need a total rewrite to fix properly.

A for effort, though,

 Whitebeard wrote:

 Loremaster Of Awesomeness wrote:
Looking at the rules for the TS I thought they got the better end of the stick. Ok their psychic powers were kinda cr*ppy but, hey, every other model's rules weren't bad, even the nice TS marines (although, yes, they are quite pricey)

I think that's kinda the big issue. Our lore sucks and rubrics cost a fortune and accomplish nothing. Every now and then you get them to rapid fire on a group of marines and it feels good to see them roasted.

IMO, the TS codex would be ace if they just reduced the points of the units slightly as it's, what? 300 points for a unit of 10 Rubric Marines? From what I've read, everything else in the codex is also pricey too, meaning you get few models actually on the table in games. However, that being said, I still love the army and think the models and the rules are great

 Loremaster Of Awesomeness wrote:

 Whitebeard wrote:

 Loremaster Of Awesomeness wrote:
Looking at the rules for the TS I thought they got the better end of the stick. Ok their psychic powers were kinda cr*ppy but, hey, every other model's rules weren't bad, even the nice TS marines (although, yes, they are quite pricey)

I think that's kinda the big issue. Our lore sucks and rubrics cost a fortune and accomplish nothing. Every now and then you get them to rapid fire on a group of marines and it feels good to see them roasted.

IMO, the TS codex would be ace if they just reduced the points of the units slightly as it's, what? 300 points for a unit of 10 Rubric Marines? From what I've read, everything else in the codex is also pricey too, meaning you get few models actually on the table in games. However, that being said, I still love the army and think the models and the rules are great

it's a low model count, and the models you do have aren't that good. If your psychic phase doesn't work out, the results are pretty comical.

 Whitebeard wrote:

 Loremaster Of Awesomeness wrote:

 Whitebeard wrote:

 Loremaster Of Awesomeness wrote:
Looking at the rules for the TS I thought they got the better end of the stick. Ok their psychic powers were kinda cr*ppy but, hey, every other model's rules weren't bad, even the nice TS marines (although, yes, they are quite pricey)

I think that's kinda the big issue. Our lore sucks and rubrics cost a fortune and accomplish nothing. Every now and then you get them to rapid fire on a group of marines and it feels good to see them roasted.

IMO, the TS codex would be ace if they just reduced the points of the units slightly as it's, what? 300 points for a unit of 10 Rubric Marines? From what I've read, everything else in the codex is also pricey too, meaning you get few models actually on the table in games. However, that being said, I still love the army and think the models and the rules are great

it's a low model count, and the models you do have aren't that good. If your psychic phase doesn't work out, the results are pretty comical.

The models are lovely in themselves, aesthetic wise though and not too bad in the rules area either, and as for Psychic phase, if you do fail then you're doing something wrong OR it was a one off (although I can imagine it being very funny if it doesn't work )

Personally I wasn't extremely happy: my favourite legion is Night Lords, and what did we get? Fear! And if you already have fear? Fear test at -1Ld! Stealth isn't bad but night fighting? The only things in my army shooting can't even benefit from it.

It gave me a reason to pull out my plans for a full NL army again but will I be able to play comp? No. Will it be fun trying to beat top tier armies with a cc army that has no tricks to be able to get into cc and their only bonus doesn't even effect top tier armies? Probably not. The fact that I can't even remmedy any of this with any kind of marks is a bit rubbish.

Then again CSM have been humbled (quite alot) after the 3.5ed high so to be quite honest anything that gives us a taste of the good old days (even if it doesn't really help that much) will go down well in the realms of chaos.

 Loremaster Of Awesomeness wrote:
... not too bad in the rules area either, and as for Psychic phase, if you do fail then you're doing something wrong OR it was a one off (although I can imagine it being very funny if it doesn't work )

Do you you actually play thousand sons or are you just wildly speculating? You don't really need to answer, because I know you can't actually play them if you think that their rules aren't comically bad (excet for the maxed War cabal, which can be pretty neat). As for psychic phase, do you understand that you can only cast so many powers with the ~25 dice you have, yes? You can't buff, debuff, move and mind dakka all at once with such a limited pool of dice for ~10 psychers with any sort of reliability, since at 2-3 dice per power, you're only casting about 10 spells which really isn't that much when it's pretty much the only thing your army can do and unlike other armies, people can just deny your special snowflake abilities. Why can't I just roll 2-3 dice and deny a riptide the use of its nova reactor or negate some markerlights? Perhaps deny Eldar the ability to run and shoot? Maybe other armies should be forced to take units simply so they can hold the ammo allowing other models to shoot? Or maybe other armies should have to randomly roll to see what special weapons they're taking today? Rolled flamers against mech? Too bad, suck it up!

The very fact that you think that Rubricae aren't one of the worst units in the codex is also laughable. 23 points for a marine? 58! points for a sarge? Yes, they get some OK toys (that aren't really worth their points on MEQ), but they still die like flies to bolters and small arms fire. People complain about GK strike squads being terrible value and they have non-trash fixed powers, can actually assault stuff since they're a full unit of force weapons and STILL cost less than rubricae. 300 points for 10 MEQ in a rhino is a terrible deal, as is trading an AP3 bolter for an AP4 flamer for 7 points on a slow and purposeful model. Hell, that could be a free trade and I doubt that I'd bother. Yeah, they got some new units, 250 points for 5 termies, what a deal! Only 75! POINTS over a vanilla marine tactical terminator squad and you have to give up your powerfists for power swords and your specials are worse and/or more points to boot. Awesome /sarcasm. And that's comparing them to tactical terminators, which are already absolutely terrible.

Oh yes, our cup truely runneth over with quality rules and units...

And yet I still think that Traitor Legions was a decent effort due to the flavour it brought, even if DG, WE and AL clearly got the better end of the deal with other legions ending up out in the cold. If we ever get a new dex to bring the basline units into line with the rest of 40k, then as long as much of the TL buffs remain, we could actually be a competative force.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Personally I wasn't extremely happy: my favourite legion is Night Lords, and what did we get? Fear! And if you already have fear? Fear test at -1Ld! Stealth isn't bad but night fighting? The only things in my army shooting can't even benefit from it.
.

I find that people underrate the effectiveness of Fear.. normally because people tend to forget about it.. But -1ld fear is Awesome imo granted it doesn't do much against spacemarines..