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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 andysonic1 wrote:
I jumped ship from KDK to World Eaters because I wanted to play angry marines not angry deamons. My current list has 3 units of havocs, 3 units of CSM, and 3 units of bikes, and it scares the gak out of my opponent when all of that is halfway across the board turn one. Could it have been more competitive? Sure. Does it make fluffy armies playable? It sure does!


This. Almost verbatim, except I run a Demon Prince with the glaive. IMO it's gave each of the legions their own unique playstyle. Instead of running maroon spikey marines and calling them word bearers or something such nonsense we actually got rules that reflect the type of army/legion the player wants to field. Sure some of the auxiliaries could have been more open, but it's got to be the best thing to happen to chaos in a LONG time. And for me, personally the ability to play Alpha Legion kind of hit me out of nowhere. But in a very, very cool way. The ability to actually reflect the potency of abbas onset BL with the kabal and Speartip is really cool.as well (although some black legion marines need to find a way to mitigate mishaps. I mean steal the locator beacons off of a wrecked drop pod FFS.).


And as much criticism as I'm going to get for thos, I think it actually brought us up to participate (or very close to) the SM dex. The bonuses and command traits beat the hell out of CT. Take away skyhammer, smashfucker and gladius and I'd say we're on even ground.
   
Made in au
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Dantes_Baals wrote:
And as much criticism as I'm going to get for thos, I think it actually brought us up to participate (or very close to) the SM dex. The bonuses and command traits beat the hell out of CT. Take away skyhammer, smashfucker and gladius and I'd say we're on even ground.


Grav. Take Grav away from marines and suddenly they'd be back down at the bottom of T1/top of T2.

 Peregrine wrote:
What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Chaos Terminator






Surfing the Tervigon Wave...on a baby.

 Drasius wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
And as much criticism as I'm going to get for thos, I think it actually brought us up to participate (or very close to) the SM dex. The bonuses and command traits beat the hell out of CT. Take away skyhammer, smashfucker and gladius and I'd say we're on even ground.


Grav. Take Grav away from marines and suddenly they'd be back down at the bottom of T1/top of T2.


Take Grav away and suddenly Ad-Mech fall down too.

Grav is a problem. It's just too good an all rounder. It's the starcannon of 6th ed. onwards.


Now only a CSM player. 
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





 DarkStarSabre wrote:
 Drasius wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
And as much criticism as I'm going to get for thos, I think it actually brought us up to participate (or very close to) the SM dex. The bonuses and command traits beat the hell out of CT. Take away skyhammer, smashfucker and gladius and I'd say we're on even ground.


Grav. Take Grav away from marines and suddenly they'd be back down at the bottom of T1/top of T2.


Take Grav away and suddenly Ad-Mech fall down too.

Grav is a problem. It's just too good an all rounder. It's the starcannon of 6th ed. onwards.


Grav on Ad-Mec makes sense..

The sudden inclusion of Grav to marines when they really didn't need a new weapon, didn't really make sense fluff wise, and just overly buffed some units especially when combined with some formations.

Playing Tyranids and losing all of your MC's due to a few bike squads packing grav is never fun
   
Made in gb
Ancient Chaos Terminator






Surfing the Tervigon Wave...on a baby.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
3.5 had false options which is why I only saw 4 Heavy Iron Warriors on the tabletop. Ohh... "character". Pure crap.


Sorry your local meta sucked ass?

My local meta had...

2 World Eaters armies (though one player grumbled about the fact they were prone to disembarking from Rhinos to run off on foot - really, I would've paid 15 points for Child Locks too), 1 Emperor's Children Sonic-army (even with Sonic bikes), a Thousand Sons army, a Word Bearers daemon bomb army, my Death Guard (which at the time was being run as Plaguewing) and a single Iron Warriors army.

We can hate on 3.5 all day long. End of the day CSM 3.5 was on par with its environment in late 3rd/early 4th. It existed in the same period as Craftworld Eldar, SM Traits, IG Doctrines, 4th ed EW Tyranids and Tau Fish of Fury. I love how everyone forgets that.

Pretty easy to hate on a book for a single list option (OMG IW CHEESE) when you had SM Traits that were obvious freebies (Oh no, I can't take allies. Boo hoo) and a doctrine that granted rerolls on 1s to hit across a damn horde army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/09 01:43:42



Now only a CSM player. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




GodDamUser wrote:
 DarkStarSabre wrote:
 Drasius wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
And as much criticism as I'm going to get for thos, I think it actually brought us up to participate (or very close to) the SM dex. The bonuses and command traits beat the hell out of CT. Take away skyhammer, smashfucker and gladius and I'd say we're on even ground.


Grav. Take Grav away from marines and suddenly they'd be back down at the bottom of T1/top of T2.


Take Grav away and suddenly Ad-Mech fall down too.
Yea grav sucks for the likes of Nids, but it's the loyalists only real way to deal with all the absurdly OP MCs. Whereas chaos has things like strength boosting demon weapons to throw on a prince, in addition to psychic shenanigans (shreik, lowering Toughness, summoning more M
Grav is a problem. It's just too good an all rounder. It's the starcannon of 6th ed. onwards.


Grav on Ad-Mec makes sense..

The sudden inclusion of Grav to marines when they really didn't need a new weapon, didn't really make sense fluff wise, and just overly buffed some units especially when combined with some formations.

Playing Tyranids and losing all of your MC's due to a few bike squads packing grav is never fun


Grav is the loyalists only real way of dealing with the absurdly OP MCs. Yea it sucks for nids, but really these days, what doesn't? Chaos has strength boosting demon weapons, the ever popular rapid fire plasma on cheap termicide units and even the ordinary marine squad. and the best psykers in the game (with the ability to summon more MCs, reduce toughness etc).

I agree, grav spammed is ridiculous, but that is why the cannons cost as much as a damn terminator. If the roll to hot misses, you just lost an entire LOS worth of points. As I said, the problem lies in certain formations. A CAD or even double CAD will usually have grav cannons kept in check because they cost so much.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/09 02:20:20


 
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





I do believe grav would of been less of a issue if it wasn't Salvo.. that is also what makes them really annoying
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




I would like to take the time to remind the OP that we came SOOOOO close to having a top tier option in the Black Legion Speartip. If they allowed us to take a Chaos Warband inside the Speartip decurion instead of the crapluster Black Legion Warband we could have an option on par with SM gladius. But alas. Chaos.

But to answer your question I think at this point almost every chaos player expects to be a bottom tier force and looks at any slight buff as a godsend. Which honestly it is. Between TH and TL we got pushed up to solid mid tier. But of alot of your critiques about TL are SPOT ON. This book only fixxed a fraction of issues and still left the crap as crap. For instance, you have even LESS reason to take zerkers now that world eater marines pretty much get buffed to be zerkers without the chain axes (those mighty chain axes!). Helbrutes, maulerfiends and forgefiends are still paper thin and overcosted.And our tanks are still bland vanilla affairs with the worst LR variant in the game as our only option. But one must remember that fully half of our codex is infantry of some sort and things like DP's benefit from many of the legion rules.

I just wish the TS were playable outside of sorc spam with demon allies and Magnus lists. Many problems still exist at the end of the day (zerkers being cabbage, Rubrics being double costed, Noise Marines salvo fire weapons ect ect.) And honestly im not sure those will ever be fixed. They had a perfect opportunity with WoM to fix rubrics but did nothing.

But at the end of the day we do have some of the most awesome mini's avail with some solid fluff (outside of the recent saturday morning cartoon affairs with failbaddon).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/09 02:56:54


 
   
Made in no
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






It gave DG, WE, and EC a massive leg-up, boosting them to mid-tier. Though SMs pay 1 more point per model for pseudo-Fearless, these spikey boyz just got Fearless baked into VotLW. And while they lack the free transports, doctrines, grav, drop pods/null deployment etc, they did get other bonuses in the form of FnPs etc.

The rest got fluffy rules (though I'm not entirely convinced by the Alpha Legion rules, just giving everything Infiltrate is fething lazy), which is better than nothing. Thousand Sons became a lot more viable due to improved Invulnerable saves, and Iron Warriors have a reason to take fortifications.

   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 techsoldaten wrote:
In second edition, CSMs were the little darlings that could field a Chaos Lord who would eat one tactical squad a round without taking a wound.


How did that work? You could only kill what was in b2b contact and obviously only idiot would put voluntarily more models than you were able to move into contact unless it gave them advantage.

You charge in. Struggle to get more than 1 into b2b as obviously enemy has spread up. You kill 1, maybe 2. Consolidiate into next 1-2. Next turn kill those. 4 turn game, 8 combat phase max. Since you weren't likely to get 1st turn charge you would struggle to kill full tac squad in a game!

Also pretty sure summoned daemons you still had to pay points and you still had to summon them up. So it was actually generally worse than just having since to get bloodthirster you either had to get into combat ASAP(remember 4 turn games) or sacrifice character.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Tycho wrote:
The unique legion formations are too expensive. In most cases, taking full advantage means spending more than 70% of your points on troops. It does not leave enough room for other units.


The unique Legion formations are very nearly unplayable. Too many weird taxes and too many units that don't support one another. It's the typical CSM problem of being too expensive while also having almost no synergy. With the exception of Death Guard, all of our CSM folks are running CADs. A few of untried to make the Black Legion alpha strike thing work, but there's just too many things in the way so that seems to be abandoned for the time being.


belive it or not this is something they share with space Marines, once you remove the "free rhinos gimmic" the basic gladius has very similer problems of large expensive aux formations I don't nesscarily mind that but woulda prefered some other options that way. I'm debating how to build a new UM force for gulliman, and as useal the auxillery is kind of a pain. I don't have the option to take 1 or two predators, I have to take 3. unsquadroned, with a tech marine

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





BrianDavion wrote:
I don't have the option to take 1 or two predators, I have to take 3. unsquadroned, with a tech marine


One could say that's disadvantage(ie cost) to have all the benefits you get over CAD. That's theory at least though whether that's enough to compensate for all the free transports...

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





tneva82 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I don't have the option to take 1 or two predators, I have to take 3. unsquadroned, with a tech marine


One could say that's disadvantage(ie cost) to have all the benefits you get over CAD. That's theory at least though whether that's enough to compensate for all the free transports...


except the free transports aren't part of the base gladius, you ONLY get those if you take a BATTLE COMPANY. also I was talking about the new ultramarines formation which doesn't give any free rhinos.

it does however give OS to everything that isn't a vehicle, and the ability to take a strike force ultra as a core choice (which would be awesome... if terminators where, ya know, any good

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

tneva82 wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
In second edition, CSMs were the little darlings that could field a Chaos Lord who would eat one tactical squad a round without taking a wound.


How did that work? You could only kill what was in b2b contact and obviously only idiot would put voluntarily more models than you were able to move into contact unless it gave them advantage.

You charge in. Struggle to get more than 1 into b2b as obviously enemy has spread up. You kill 1, maybe 2. Consolidiate into next 1-2. Next turn kill those. 4 turn game, 8 combat phase max. Since you weren't likely to get 1st turn charge you would struggle to kill full tac squad in a game!

Also pretty sure summoned daemons you still had to pay points and you still had to summon them up. So it was actually generally worse than just having since to get bloodthirster you either had to get into combat ASAP(remember 4 turn games) or sacrifice character.


Originally, I did not want to respond to this obvious attempt to highjack a thread with a discussion about 2nd edition mechanics. Then I noticed you called someone an idiot.

2nd Edition Chaos Lords got to eat tactical squads in a single turn when that squad charges him in the hand-to-hand phase. It was this old tactic people used to use, where they would throw a lot of attacks at a model to try to kill it.

If you have ever deep striked you know it's not that hard to get 4 to 5 to squeeze in around a model. Sometimes, it did take more than a single round to kill a tactical squad. Sometimes the Chaos Lord would also kill things that were not tactical squads, like assault squads.

2nd Edition Daemons arrived via summoning. Yes, they replaced characters when they arrived, it was cool. Much more reliable than Deep Strike Mishaps, Perils, Daemonic Instability, etc.

Again, if it helps to know this, sometimes your sorcerer would die and a Greater Daemon could not be summoned. It was always sad when that happened. But it happened a lot less frequently than the stuff listed above.

   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





2nd Edition Chaos Lords got to eat tactical squads in a single turn when that squad charges him in the hand-to-hand phase. It was this old tactic people used to use, where they would throw a lot of attacks at a model to try to kill it.
Somehow this just sounds like a really bad idea rather then just.. Going into overwatch and shooting him when he attempts to move, or just shooting him normally. Why would you charge a Tactical Squad to someone dedicated to Melee in 2nd?


I don't have the option to take 1 or two predators, I have to take 3. unsquadroned, with a tech marine
Still better then the Warp Smith tax on nearly all Vehicle types.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/09 11:50:01


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
2nd Edition Chaos Lords got to eat tactical squads in a single turn when that squad charges him in the hand-to-hand phase. It was this old tactic people used to use, where they would throw a lot of attacks at a model to try to kill it.
Somehow this just sounds like a really bad idea rather then just.. Going into overwatch and shooting him when he attempts to move, or just shooting him normally. Why would you charge a Tactical Squad to someone dedicated to Melee in 2nd?


I don't have the option to take 1 or two predators, I have to take 3. unsquadroned, with a tech marine
Still better then the Warp Smith tax on nearly all Vehicle types.


only by virtue of the tech marine being cheaper. it's still annoying for both CSMs and C:SMs. partiuclarly as I don't feel personally fielding THAT many tanks is terriably normal for space marines (chaos OR loyalist) to accompany a demi-company sized force.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/09 12:20:03


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 techsoldaten wrote:
Originally, I did not want to respond to this obvious attempt to highjack a thread with a discussion about 2nd edition mechanics. Then I noticed you called someone an idiot.


Not really calling anybody since I don't know anybody who would send more troops in who can't kill him. Since I presume nobody is as stupid I presume there's some wargear combo I have missed that allows chaos lord to kill more than what's in b2b.


2nd Edition Chaos Lords got to eat tactical squads in a single turn when that squad charges him in the hand-to-hand phase. It was this old tactic people used to use, where they would throw a lot of attacks at a model to try to kill it.


So if squad has odds to kill the chaos lord then chaos lord wasn't that unfair now was it? After all TACTICAL marines have now fighting chance.

If they don't(and you can calculate it easily) then what happens is tactical marines keep just feeding 1-2 models to the close combat.

If opponent doesn't WANT your character to kill more than 1-2 he does not kill him. Simple as that. You cannot kill what you aren't in base to base contact and you were in no obligation to move into b2b contact.

Only reason tactical marines are piling in is if that means they have chance to kill him. Which means chaos lord isn't unkillable broken model if tactical squad can overcome him.

Characters in 2nd ed are good at killing characters, tanks etc single models. Poor at killing entire units.


2nd Edition Daemons arrived via summoning. Yes, they replaced characters when they arrived, it was cool. Much more reliable than Deep Strike Mishaps, Perils, Daemonic Instability, etc.

Again, if it helps to know this, sometimes your sorcerer would die and a Greater Daemon could not be summoned. It was always sad when that happened. But it happened a lot less frequently than the stuff listed above.


Yes but that means you have paid a) cost of daemon b) cost of character. This does not result in army size INCREASING midgame. Okay model wise if you summon by summon points it could but that's just because you started with only part of your army on board. No different than deep strikers in 7th ed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/09 12:47:58


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Strangely Beautiful Daemonette of Slaanesh





Denver, CO

I like the new rules. It did take about 3 months for me to get my hands on a book but overall I think it gave Chaos players what they were looking for without letting us forget it was GW 'giving' us these boons... :(

My only gripe is that they don't function at lower points levels. I'm not a great player and I'm not a fast player, yet. I prefer to play around 1k - 1250 pts and that really hobbles your ability to work with some of those formations. Noise Marine benefits don't really kick in until you field the max squads (and if you're looking to play fluffy they're all 6 man squads, can we PLEASE GET RAZORBACKS?!?). Rhinos for survivability (decked with dirge casters) weighs in around 1250 pts with a decent HQ.

Why do Eldar Aspect Hosts get the same level benefits with half the required squads? It just makes it difficult to see any changes when you're not going tournament level points for your game. And more, it makes your army REALLY one-dimensional if you have no flexibility in designating inclusions because the requirements eat so many points.

Also, what's up with the Auxiliary formations? Same deal PLUS an extra HQ for some.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
This line of reasoning broke 7th edition in Fantasy. The books should be as equal as possible, even a theoretical "Codex: Squirrels with Crustacean allies" should have a fair chance to beat "Codex: God".

 Redbeard wrote:

- Cost? FW models cost more? Because Thudd guns are more expensive than Wraithknights and Riptides. Nope, not a good argument. This is an expensive game. We play it knowing that, and also knowing that, realistically, it's cheaper than hookers and blow.
 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
2nd Edition Chaos Lords got to eat tactical squads in a single turn when that squad charges him in the hand-to-hand phase. It was this old tactic people used to use, where they would throw a lot of attacks at a model to try to kill it.
Somehow this just sounds like a really bad idea rather then just.. Going into overwatch and shooting him when he attempts to move, or just shooting him normally. Why would you charge a Tactical Squad to someone dedicated to Melee in 2nd?


Don't ask me to explain why people do what they do. Hindsight is 20/20, you are talking about pre-Internet second edition tactics.

The original point is Chaos Lords were beasts. Running one solo meant you could destroy entire units regardless of who charged who.

   
Made in au
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Dantes_Baals wrote:
Grav is the loyalists only real way of dealing with the absurdly OP MCs. Yea it sucks for nids, but really these days, what doesn't? Chaos has strength boosting demon weapons, the ever popular rapid fire plasma on cheap termicide units and even the ordinary marine squad. and the best psykers in the game (with the ability to summon more MCs, reduce toughness etc).

I agree, grav spammed is ridiculous, but that is why the cannons cost as much as a damn terminator. If the roll to hot misses, you just lost an entire LOS worth of points. As I said, the problem lies in certain formations. A CAD or even double CAD will usually have grav cannons kept in check because they cost so much.


How do you figure that grav is your only answer when you can have combi-plas sternguard in pods delete any MC on landing and still have the option of just spamming 2+ rapidifre poison ammo at any non-GMC with spectalar odds of dropping it. As for chaos getting str boosting daemon weapons, that requires being in CC which is laughably sub-par compared to shooting and our psychers are about even with conclave psychers who're casting on 2's and have drop pods to come down safely wherever they like. I'm also not sure how you're getting cheap combi plas termies when it's 184 for 5 termies with combi plas who won't come down until T2 at the earliest and can easily scatter into terrain while it's 195 for 5 combi-plas sternguard in a pod who will always come down T1 (unless you want to save them for later) and the odds of them mishapping off the board are infinitesimally small along with the fact that they've got a second unit in a pod that is annoying to take care of for many armies. No, please don't cry that SM desperatly need grav to deal with MC's - you've already got plenty of options, more than almost anyone else whose not Eldar.

Cannons cost as much as a terminator because they're insanly good. Even at 35ppm they're still undercosted. 2x plasma guns is 30 points and puts out 4 shots at 12" and Gets Hot! while a grav cannon is 35 points, puts out 5 shots at 24", doesn't get hot and re-rolls to wound/pen. Against anything with a 2+ save, a single grav cannon is the equivalent of 5 half range lascannons. That's 100 points worth of shots for 35 points! On average, a single grav cannon will immobilise anything it's pointed at. For something designed to counter MC's, it does a pretty incredible job at countering everything else that's not bolter-bait as well. It takes 3 lascannons to do a single HP to AV13 while a single grav cannon will immobilise it (and do a hull point). Again, that's 60 points of dedicated anti tank getting outperformed by a 35 point gun that's meant to be used on MC's and heavy infantry.

 Peregrine wrote:
What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
 
   
Made in us
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 techsoldaten wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
2nd Edition Chaos Lords got to eat tactical squads in a single turn when that squad charges him in the hand-to-hand phase. It was this old tactic people used to use, where they would throw a lot of attacks at a model to try to kill it.
Somehow this just sounds like a really bad idea rather then just.. Going into overwatch and shooting him when he attempts to move, or just shooting him normally. Why would you charge a Tactical Squad to someone dedicated to Melee in 2nd?


Don't ask me to explain why people do what they do. Hindsight is 20/20, you are talking about pre-Internet second edition tactics.

The original point is Chaos Lords were beasts. Running one solo meant you could destroy entire units regardless of who charged who.


And cheap Eldar Guardians with Shurikens ignored practically all armour saves in the game, Tyranids could kill all psykers on the board with Screaming, and Space Wolves could originally take entire squads of terminators with assault cannons and cyclones on everyone.

2nd certainly wasn't the most balanced edition to say the least. .
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Table wrote:
I would like to take the time to remind the OP that we came SOOOOO close to having a top tier option in the Black Legion Speartip. If they allowed us to take a Chaos Warband inside the Speartip decurion instead of the crapluster Black Legion Warband we could have an option on par with SM gladius. But alas. Chaos.


The Black Legion Speartip does not secure objectives. The Black Legion Speartip murders it's way across the table with Hounds of Abbadon, featuring basic CSMs with:

Endless Hatred
Veterans of the Long War
Rage (Mark of Khorne for free)
Crusader
charge rolls of 8+ give them a bonus Strength
once per game can Charge after Running

Icon of Wrath for
Furious Charge
Re-roll Charge distances

When you get 10 guys throwing 40 attacks, re-rolling to hit at S 6. . . fun times!


I always found the Deep Striking thing for BL a bit of a red herring.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
Table wrote:
I would like to take the time to remind the OP that we came SOOOOO close to having a top tier option in the Black Legion Speartip. If they allowed us to take a Chaos Warband inside the Speartip decurion instead of the crapluster Black Legion Warband we could have an option on par with SM gladius. But alas. Chaos.


The Black Legion Speartip does not secure objectives. The Black Legion Speartip murders it's way across the table with Hounds of Abbadon, featuring basic CSMs with:

Endless Hatred
Veterans of the Long War
Rage (Mark of Khorne for free)
Crusader
charge rolls of 8+ give them a bonus Strength
once per game can Charge after Running

Icon of Wrath for
Furious Charge
Re-roll Charge distances

When you get 10 guys throwing 40 attacks, re-rolling to hit at S 6. . . fun times!


I always found the Deep Striking thing for BL a bit of a red herring.


While im glad (honestly, no snark) that this works for your meta, it certainly does not in mine. Just as with gladius, sometimes you get in games with Tau and Eldar where you die before you make CC. When facing a superior foe the best thing to do is to take objectives and kill what you can after. For me, in my meta, the stats you listed are nothing special and in reality those squads in the hounds wont make CC 75% of the time. The age old problem of chaos is now in play. Competent CC troops with no way to get them into CC (well any decent way). Which, the speartip tries to fix in a round about way. The hounds also do not make use of the speartips buff.

Taking 2-3 objectives on turn 1 with obsec is nothing to sneeze at and can stack up the points in your favor. I cant remember a time where I wanted to throw a squad of marines into close combat with the CHANCE of them getting str 6 with ap - weapons. Let alone I cant remember a time when my opponent would have allowed it. Regardless meta's tend to swing wildly and there are ones where your tactic would be decent. The Speartip is all about deepstriking on turn 1. Its the entire reason for taking it. The hounds dont do anything to help you achieve that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/09 19:14:22


 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
Table wrote:
I would like to take the time to remind the OP that we came SOOOOO close to having a top tier option in the Black Legion Speartip. If they allowed us to take a Chaos Warband inside the Speartip decurion instead of the crapluster Black Legion Warband we could have an option on par with SM gladius. But alas. Chaos.


The Black Legion Speartip does not secure objectives. The Black Legion Speartip murders it's way across the table with Hounds of Abbadon, featuring basic CSMs with:

Endless Hatred
Veterans of the Long War
Rage (Mark of Khorne for free)
Crusader
charge rolls of 8+ give them a bonus Strength
once per game can Charge after Running

Icon of Wrath for
Furious Charge
Re-roll Charge distances

When you get 10 guys throwing 40 attacks, re-rolling to hit at S 6. . . fun times!


I always found the Deep Striking thing for BL a bit of a red herring.

What's the catch?

40k drinking game: take a shot everytime a book references Skitarii using transports.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Table wrote:

While im glad (honestly, no snark) that this works for your meta, it certainly does not in mine. Just as with gladius, sometimes you get in games with Tau and Eldar where you die before you make CC. When facing a superior foe the best thing to do is to take objectives and kill what you can after. For me, in my meta, the stats you listed are nothing special and in reality those squads in the hounds wont make CC 75% of the time. The age old problem of chaos is now in play. Competent CC troops with no way to get them into CC (well any decent way). Which, the speartip tries to fix in a round about way. The hounds also do not make use of the speartips buff.

Taking 2-3 objectives on turn 1 with obsec is nothing to sneeze at and can stack up the points in your favor. I cant remember a time where I wanted to throw a squad of marines into close combat with the CHANCE of them getting str 6 with ap - weapons. Let alone I cant remember a time when my opponent would have allowed it. Regardless meta's tend to swing wildly and there are ones where your tactic would be decent. The Speartip is all about deepstriking on turn 1. Its the entire reason for taking it. The hounds dont do anything to help you achieve that.


I feel ya, but I just really disagree about the Deep Striking turn 1 bit when Deep Striking can be so unreliable. I think it's a neat option to have, but because I'm not guaranteed to stick the landing I'm not that keen on it. Because I'm traditionally a Loyalist (with incredible Drop Pod capability), Deep Striking without the reliability, especially with expensive squads and your Warlord, seems like a great way to shoot yourself in the foot. (The Hounds can take advantage of it with Raptors, for what it's worth) For me the Speartip bonus of Crusader is the big boon, as the Hounds can charge after the2d6-take-the-highest Run, and everybody else gets across the table quicker. I didn't think much of it either, until my first game where I assaulted with five units at once in the second turn (three of them getting the Strength bonus, too).

It's a completely different type of army though. It's not a finesse landing with special weapons type of thing, it's more like Chaos Orks, where mobs of guys are crossing the table extremely fast.

Speaking of which, I've been landing some first turn charges through Psychic powers. Soulswitch and Worldwrithe have done me well. Not to mention you can't Interceptor them like you could against the Deep Strikers.

Playing with lot's of basic CSMs is totally not to everyone's taste, but its giving me results and I'll keep finessing the list and my play with it. I'm still making mistakes and there are some adjustments I can make (I'm trying to only play with painted models too, which slows me down a bit), but I remain excited about the potential.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

What's the catch?


You have to paint a lot of basic CSMs? I'd like to finish 40 of them, and . . .ugh. Right now I have more Berzerkes painted, and point for point they're not as good as the "Hounded" basic guys, so my build isn't as efficient as it could be.


But oh man, when that Lord with the Axe of Blind fury rolls +5 or 6 attacks for the Daemon Weapon, is re-rolling to hit and swings at S 10, it feels great.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/09 19:44:54


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Did you get around to trying a blob or two?
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
You have to paint a lot of basic CSMs? I'd like to finish 40 of them, and . . .ugh.

Only forty? Sir, let me introduce you to Orks and Imperial Guard!

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Roknar wrote:
Did you get around to trying a blob or two?


Yeah I did! Took me a game to get over and solve the Chaos lack of ATSKNF though Now the Lord usually hangs with my big blob and my Sorcerers hang with the Spawn to not get run down if I lose a combat (I got hit hard by daemons in my second game). My third game saw the 20 man blob finish off a Dreadknight with sheer weight of attacks, then carry on to kill or chase off everything else on that flank. The Hatred coupled with Rage and either S 5 or 6 drowns a lot of units in wounds.

Right now I just have the one big blob, but I'm aiming for either two blobs or one of 20 and two of 10. I love the idea of 60, but I want to get a better handle on the army before I commit to it. The psyker reinforced blitz on foot is still something I'm figuring out.

 Melissia wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
You have to paint a lot of basic CSMs? I'd like to finish 40 of them, and . . .ugh.


Only forty? Sir, let me introduce you to Orks and Imperial Guard!


Heh, back when I was painting commissions I did a Sisters army in batches of 40 for 120 "troops of the line". I like big armies, my SM army tended towards 80 infantry in 1850. IG and Orks arent my thing, but if I ever get into Tyranids again it's going to get stupid. The issue is more that all models I paint these days are for "forever", so they get more attention than they might otherwise, plus all the damn trim everywhere on the CSMs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/10 00:11:54


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
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Insectum7 wrote:
Table wrote:
I would like to take the time to remind the OP that we came SOOOOO close to having a top tier option in the Black Legion Speartip. If they allowed us to take a Chaos Warband inside the Speartip decurion instead of the crapluster Black Legion Warband we could have an option on par with SM gladius. But alas. Chaos.


The Black Legion Speartip does not secure objectives. The Black Legion Speartip murders it's way across the table with Hounds of Abbadon, featuring basic CSMs with:

Endless Hatred
Veterans of the Long War
Rage (Mark of Khorne for free)
Crusader
charge rolls of 8+ give them a bonus Strength
once per game can Charge after Running

Icon of Wrath for
Furious Charge
Re-roll Charge distances

When you get 10 guys throwing 40 attacks, re-rolling to hit at S 6. . . fun times!


I always found the Deep Striking thing for BL a bit of a red herring.


Why not just play WE then?

gnome_idea_what wrote:
What's the catch?


All of the buffs he listed only work in CC, so unless you actually make combat, you're not really achieving anything.

 Peregrine wrote:
What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
 
   
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Drasius wrote:

Why not just play WE then?


1: Because WE pay for their MoK. The Hounds don't.
2: Mixing and matching marks in the army
3: Endless Hatred
3: Cyclopea Cabal
4: Paint job.

IMO the Hounds basic CSM is cheaper and better than the basic WE guy. Havocs in a WE army have to take the MoK, and I'd rather my eventual Havocs not pay the extra 2 ppm, and that the army be more or less unified in color scheme. I can have MoN Bikers, MoN Obliterators, and MoN Spawn, if I like.

 Drasius wrote:
gnome_idea_what wrote:
What's the catch?


All of the buffs he listed only work in CC, so unless you actually make combat, you're not really achieving anything.


So far the Sorcerers and Massed Assault (Charge after Run) have worked pretty well for that.

(whoah, weird formatting issues)

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/03/10 00:36:41


 
   
 
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