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So as I was reading the section of rise of he primarch that describes how you field Guilliman and Voldus I realized it says that either character can be included in any armies of the imperium detachment. What exactly does that mean? Can either character just be added to a detachment regardless of their battlefield role? Nothing specifically explains that Guilliman must occupy a Lord of War slot and it just says "may be included." Would this allow Guilliman to just be added to a gladius strikeforce or any imperial decurion detachment for that matter?

I think they still have to adhere to battlefield role because we aren't given permission to ignore that. You can add a Space Marine Captain too but he's still X slot.

I believe is the intent that any IoM faction can use Rowboat in a LoW slot and Voldus in a HQ slot.

They would still take up the appropriate slot in the detachment, they'd just (potentially) be a different faction than the rest of the detachment. You'd have to have a Lord of War slot in the detachment in order to take him (not counting formations or detachments that already list him specifically - I know Fracture of Biel Tan has a formation for the 3 new characters that you can take as a formation; I imagine the same for the new supplement)

It's not automatically all detachments either, at least based on the earlier releases it looked like they were limiting it to CAD or Allied Detachments (or special detachments in the supplement itself).

 doctortom wrote:
They would still take up the appropriate slot in the detachment, they'd just (potentially) be a different faction than the rest of the detachment. You'd have to have a Lord of War slot in the detachment in order to take him (not counting formations or detachments that already list him specifically - I know Fracture of Biel Tan has a formation for the 3 new characters that you can take as a formation; I imagine the same for the new supplement)

It's not automatically all detachments either, at least based on the earlier releases it looked like they were limiting it to CAD or Allied Detachments (or special detachments in the supplement itself).

They were in the beginning, but a leaked shot of Primarch I saw just says any detachment for Voldus and Rowboat while Celestine/Cawl specifically say CAD/Allied only. So it seems like they're broadening it.

See that's why I asked. The first gathering storm characters specifically say CAD or Allied detachment, second gathering storm says they can be included in any Ynnari detachment and now guilliman and Voldus say may be included in any army of the imeprium detachment. Wouldn't RAW suggest that they can literally be included in ANY armies of the imperium detachment?

Gathering Storm II allows Yvraine, the Visarch and the Yncarne to be used in any Aeldari Detachment. Specifically it allows them to be used in any Eldar, Dark Eldar or Harlequins Detachment regardless of Faction restrictions, and they are of the Ynnari Faction, rounding out the four Factions that make up the Aeldari. A sort of parallel you could say to Armies of the Imperium.

So if Guilliman and Voldus (and Cypher?) can be used in any Armies of the Imperium Detachment it's nothing new after Gathering Storm II.

Wow, if this is true can Guilliman teleport into battle with the right detachment?

peirceg wrote:
Wow, if this is true can Guilliman teleport into battle with the right detachment?

the detachment still had to be able to take a lord of war

peirceg wrote:
Wow, if this is true can Guilliman teleport into battle with the right detachment?

I believe Roboute Guilliman is a Lord of War choice, so is there a Detachment with a Lord of War slot that allows all models to arrive by Deep Strike? If so, sure.

Grey Knight Nemesis Strike Force does and has the slot, but Rowboat doesn't have Deep Strike innately I don't think so he wouldn't be able to make use of it.

Audustum wrote:
Grey Knight Nemesis Strike Force does and has the slot, but Rowboat doesn't have Deep Strike innately I don't think so he wouldn't be able to make use of it.

Indeed, 'Rites of Teleportation' doesn't actually grant the Deep Strike special rule.

 son_of_osiris wrote:
See that's why I asked. The first gathering storm characters specifically say CAD or Allied detachment, second gathering storm says they can be included in any Ynnari detachment and now guilliman and Voldus say may be included in any army of the imeprium detachment. Wouldn't RAW suggest that they can literally be included in ANY armies of the imperium detachment?

No. Formations are a type of detachment. Saying that they can be included in any Imperial formation seems very dubious.

"Here, I'm putting these three named characters in an Imperial Knights formation."
"That's nothing. I'm putting them in a Raptor Wing formation."

So could I just put Guilliman in a War Con and he benefits from canticles?

 VoidLuster wrote:
So could I just put Guilliman in a War Con and he benefits from canticles?

There isn't a LoW slot in the War Convocation.

beast_gts wrote:

 VoidLuster wrote:
So could I just put Guilliman in a War Con and he benefits from canticles?

There isn't a LoW slot in the War Convocation.

Doesn't the War Con include an Oathsworn deatatchment?

 VoidLuster wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 VoidLuster wrote:
So could I just put Guilliman in a War Con and he benefits from canticles?

There isn't a LoW slot in the War Convocation.

Doesn't the War Con include an Oathsworn deatatchment?

Yes, which is limited to Knights: "All units in this Detachment must have the Imperial Knights Faction"

beast_gts wrote:

 VoidLuster wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 VoidLuster wrote:
So could I just put Guilliman in a War Con and he benefits from canticles?

There isn't a LoW slot in the War Convocation.

Doesn't the War Con include an Oathsworn deatatchment?

Yes, which is limited to Knights: "All units in this Detachment must have the Imperial Knights Faction"

Which makes it an Imperium of Man faction, and therefore eligible to include Guilliman.

 VoidLuster wrote:
So could I just put Guilliman in a War Con and he benefits from canticles?

As you note, there is an Oathsworn Detachment in the Adeptus Mechanicus War Convocation Formation, so you could put Roboute Guilliman in there.

For more fun you could take Belisarius Cawl in the Cult Mechanicus Battle Congregation as well.

 Happyjew wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 VoidLuster wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 VoidLuster wrote:
So could I just put Guilliman in a War Con and he benefits from canticles?

There isn't a LoW slot in the War Convocation.

Doesn't the War Con include an Oathsworn deatatchment?

Yes, which is limited to Knights: "All units in this Detachment must have the Imperial Knights Faction"

Which makes it an Imperium of Man faction, and therefore eligible to include Guilliman.

I see where you're coming from, but Guilliman is Faction: Space Marines. I'm not sure if the "can be included in any Armies of the Imperium Detachment, regardless of their Faction" line overrules the Oathsworn restriction.

beast_gts wrote:
I see where you're coming from, but Guilliman is Faction: Space Marines. I'm not sure if the "can be included in any Armies of the Imperium Detachment, regardless of their Faction" line overrules the Oathsworn restriction.

If it didn't, then it also wouldn't override the restriction in the Combined Arms and Allied detachments that all models must be of the same Faction (or have no Faction at all).

 Ghaz wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
I see where you're coming from, but Guilliman is Faction: Space Marines. I'm not sure if the "can be included in any Armies of the Imperium Detachment, regardless of their Faction" line overrules the Oathsworn restriction.

If it didn't, then it also wouldn't override the restriction in the Combined Arms and Allied detachments that all models must be of the same Faction (or have no Faction at all).

True - honestly I'd never noticed that the line was also on the CAD

The Imperial Knight formations are a little different than others. None of them say "take 3 LoW's" or whatever. The most permissive ones say "Take 3-5 Knights". The Knights just happen to be LoW's, but there aren't LoW slots in their specific formations. There are Knight slots.

So no, you can't take the Primarch there.

Audustum wrote:
The Imperial Knight formations are a little different than others. None of them say "take 3 LoW's" or whatever. The most permissive ones say "Take 3-5 Knights". The Knights just happen to be LoW's, but there aren't LoW slots in their specific formations. There are Knight slots.

So no, you can't take the Primarch there.

The Formations may say that, but the Oathsworn Detachment has a requirement of 1-3 Lord of War choices.

Welp, I just opened the book and it appears you're right.

Compulsory
1 Lord of War
Options
2 Lords of War

The Household Detachment is the same and offers better cheese though, now that I'm looking at it with this lens.

Lord Baron: If this Detachment is your Primary Detachment, your Warlord has the Vehicle (Super-Heavy Walker, Character) unit type and can choose to select one item from the Heirlooms of the Knightly Houses list at the point cost shown. Furthermore, add 1 to the Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill characteristics of your Warlord.

So if I'm reading this right, there's nothing stopping you from taking Rowboat in the Household Detachment and then making him your Warlord.

He then gains the Super-Heavy Walker type (allowing 12" move and Stomp). He also goes up to WS 10 and BS 7. Not sure if that'd be enough to let him buy Heirlooms though.

EDIT: Unless, is he just a vanilla Monstrous Creature or a Monstrous Creature (Character)?

Audustum wrote:
Welp, I just opened the book and it appears you're right.

Compulsory
1 Lord of War
Options
2 Lords of War

The Household Detachment is the same and offers better cheese though, now that I'm looking at it with this lens.

Lord Baron: If this Detachment is your Primary Detachment, your Warlord has the Vehicle (Super-Heavy Walker, Character) unit type and can choose to select one item from the Heirlooms of the Knightly Houses list at the point cost shown. Furthermore, add 1 to the Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill characteristics of your Warlord.

So if I'm reading this right, there's nothing stopping you from taking Rowboat in the Household Detachment and then making him your Warlord.

He then gains the Super-Heavy Walker type (allowing 12" move and Stomp). He also goes up to WS 10 and BS 7. Not sure if that'd be enough to let him buy Heirlooms though.

EDIT: Unless, is he just a vanilla Monstrous Creature or a Monstrous Creature (Character)?

Yeah, that's not gonna fly... Anywhere.

What people and TO's house rule is one thing, but we're on YMDC. Is there any reason that doesn't work RAW? Cause IK's probably need a FAQ update if it does.

Audustum wrote:
What people and TO's house rule is one thing, but we're on YMDC. Is there any reason that doesn't work RAW? Cause IK's probably need a FAQ update if it does.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think GW expects us to apply a little bit of common sense here

Audustum wrote:
What people and TO's house rule is one thing, but we're on YMDC. Is there any reason that doesn't work RAW? Cause IK's probably need a FAQ update if it does.

There's a line between RAW, even if it's a little bit silly, and RAW that no one would ever allow at any table pretty much ever.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Audustum wrote:
What people and TO's house rule is one thing, but we're on YMDC. Is there any reason that doesn't work RAW? Cause IK's probably need a FAQ update if it does.

There's a line between RAW, even if it's a little bit silly, and RAW that no one would ever allow at any table pretty much ever.

Not really. RAW is RAW. That's why it's RAW. You're trying to say RAW is RAI, which it isn't. I'm sure if we canvassed enough we'd find places (and tournaments even) that would do it. We look for RAW so people know what they need to house rule and GW knows what it needs to FAQ/Errata. We can't just assume everyone is 'on the same page' with interpretations that aren't literal (are RAI) because we're all gonna have subjective opinions on that. It's much better say "That's RAW and here is how my playgroup/tournament/whatever deviates" through something like the Nova or ITC FAQ.

EDIT: Basically, what I'm getting at is that RAW makes your underlying game assumptions. I don't go to a FLGS and assume they're gonna run ITC rules, for example, I assume they're going to RAW until someone tells me what they do instead. It forms our underlying beliefs as to what a 'game of 40k' entails in such a way we can all be sure we're thinking of the same thing at the start and thus know where to discuss deviations.

If I was at a friendly game and someone plunked this tactic down, for example, I'd blame myself for not asking the group to prohibit it before we started and roll with it. It's RAW so the person is allowed to do it till the group says otherwise. Conversely, if it's not RAW, then it's on the person bringing the list to clear it with the group in advance.

Looking at Oathsworn and the rule for Guilliman, I see nothing that lets him actually override the Restriction requiring all models in the Detachment to have the Imperial Knights Faction. Yes, he can be taken regardless of Faction, but the Detachment is then illegally formed at the end as he lacks the Faction.