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Don't look down on people for their passion for the hobby.

Have been doing it since 2nd ed.. why would we stop now?

mchammadad wrote:
Never assume that nostalga is good enough to bring a gaming system to a massive rollback, because even the past has problems

Hi, have you seen Kickstarter? Within the past 5 years, we've had new editions launched for Ogre, Nuclear War, Vampire, Heroquest *cough*, Warzone, and more - all entirely out of nostalgia. Not to mention this weekend's box office winner being a remake of an old semi-CG Disney flick.

mchammadad wrote:

please dont go back to 5th edition, those rules be outdated, remnants of a time that should be forgotten. Instead improve upon the current system.

Never assume that nostalga is good enough to bring a gaming system to a massive rollback, because even the past has problems

You must be drinking some special kind of kool-aid, because 7th edition is the same system as 5th, just with a lot more bloat tacked on.

5th had its own problems that needed some serious addressing, namely wound allocation and vehicle rules, but it was a far better designed system than the hot mess we have now.

mchammadad wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
They need a core 1500pts skirmish game back. They need codex's/factions to be front and center within that core skirmish game. And all the silly crap pushed up into higher point levels. They need to address the massive disparity between mc's and evryone else, especially vehicles. They need walkers to either be immune from immobilized or simply half their move on the first immobilized. Super heavies and gmc's need to be banished to the land of wind and ghosts and or just upper point levels. Also, murder formations in cold blood and bury them in the sea.



Thought experiment: Imagine the latest battlefleet gothic video game, where currently you like have to pick a faction and play that faction. Now imagine an add on that takes that away and allows you to make fleets combining all factions ships. How could you possibly make faction play an incentive once that change has happened?

Battlefleet gothic unfortunately Isnt popular anymore because of the single factions everyone fall into; kinda like the same points range and restriction that 5th edition was. 5th edition was samey samey and there was no fluff based 'oooh' gameplay that 7th edition brought in, especially since formations bring the fluff onto the table

do i think their balanced? no not one bit

are they fun? hell yea

please dont go back to 5th edition, those rules be outdated, remnants of a time that should be forgotten. Instead improve upon the current system.

Never assume that nostalga is good enough to bring a gaming system to a massive rollback, because even the past has problems

The fact that fluff is mentioned and then nostalgia derided speaks to a cognitive dissonance of sorts. And really, I'm not suggesting ruining anyone's fun, merely segregating it to the fluffy table as it were. But really, if the only change in 8th was that sanity was restored under 1500pts and anything above it is still completely free for all mad crazy fluff salad, are you like afraid everyone will play 1500? That's some powerful nostalgia, just sayin

 Fafnir wrote:


You must be drinking some special kind of kool-aid, because 7th edition is the same system as 5th, just with a lot more bloat tacked on.

5th had its own problems that needed some serious addressing, namely wound allocation and vehicle rules, but it was a far better designed system than the hot mess we have now.

Agreed, it wasn't perfect but it was a good starting point.


The game has all the hallmarks of the marketing team running roughshod over whatever human remains can collectively be called a design team. The ruleset bows to the release schedule and pushin plastic, and that's half the reason it sucks. Quality over quantity in the rule side of things would be a lovely change of pace for 8th. And we flat out know that the rules designers are just handed models and told to make lemonaid. So dare to dream I guess. They might destroy codex, or every unit will get a codex, neither would surprise at this point. Regardless of anyone's feelings on 5th, it proved you could have a skirmish game and a big silly fluff nutters dream (apoc) without either stepping on the other's toes. Now 7th is just apoc by any other name, 30k had no problem at last indexing crazy to a point level and percentage. The pieces are there for like minded individuals to put best efforts forth and try and find mutual enjoyment, but its way too hit and miss rock paper scissor coin flip dance dance revolution in the guise of pseudo dnd vapid story telling and narrative forging. Here's this weeks new toy releases, shiny. Golden land raiders to one and all.


skeptical design team member "won't it be weird to just have golden vehicles, some of which are over a decade old?" -evil corporate douchebag gives angry glare while secretly pressing a button under his desk-



-small red light blinks on wall- Jervis: "that's two independent thought alarms in one day, the interns are clearly over stimulated"


7th has had me basically just playing 30k and its not hard to decipher why. Factions. Even in a game where a good chunk of players are playin various flavors of power armour with a small twist, you still get better games and actual faction identity. Talk to someone playin 7th and its all "is four sources ok? how many formations are you running?" Just slit my wrists now. lol

Honestly, players who see eye to eye will always do what they want anyway, people who play more loose or open will do so accordingly whether the ruleset is tight, loose, focused or scatter brained. A lot of people in this thread will by their own admission essentially just "go with the flow" and play what other/the club gravitate towards. So ya, I wish we had army construction much more akin to 5th. I wish allies and all that new stuff was relegated at the very least to higher point levels to satisfy everyone. If 8th closer resembles 30k I'll be happier. But in all likelihood army construction will not be touched. The army construction is too perfectly gw, it puts up a facade of depth and what may apear complex from the outset but it's really just a way of somehow throwing rules out the window while making army construction more complicated. It's their entire design ethos boiled down to a spiteful donkey punch to the foc and a hateful spitful mockery the beautiful game that once was.

But really you can do whatever you want. And that's where jervis and the marketing team get along like peas and carrots. And that seems to honestly benefit the front line staff too, sellin stuff is hard if you gotta like know stuff about it. When you unbound the rules and go full apoc they (gw retail staff) don't really need to know much past "ello there fellow collector, fear not in deciding on what shiny new models to purchase this fine day, daddy jervis done designed dis here perfect system so dat any gamer er.. collector can do whatever they want with their collection and we the humble clerks don't rightly need to know much or something or nothing bout dem der plastic men in order to sell you lot really whatever comes out every saturday. In the marketing team we trust, in jervis we trust, all hail our avarice-soaked corporate overlords. Oh by the way chap, do you need any spray paint or glue with that purchase you're making 20+ year customer who I will spare no expense to condescend to. Pip pip cheerio, govna various other terrible cockne accent related commentary and so forth"



Just because anyone takes a side of bravely not playing 8th or playing 8th. Either way its most likely sunk cost fallacy mixed with morbid curiosity. At best. I'll take a peak at it, then again I'm that rare individual who would rubber neck a car crash.

Mayble it will get better, maybe it will continue down the rabbit hole of weekly dlc irrelevance, a rule set equivalent to painted rust. The bloat will eventually hide the rot, right?

Mitochondria wrote:
So about half of you are going to continue to pay for abuse. Good to know...I guess.

^ I will refer you to the quote below:

 Melissia wrote:
Don't look down on people for their passion for the hobby.

Is it "Abuse"? Hell no! We have a game system that is so imbalanced that - in my opinion - unless you play casually (and thus don't give a feth about having the 'Best List You Can Have'), you're going to hate the system. I mean far out: I played a 1,500 Point list the other week that was not so bad on paper but was realistically gak. I played against a Sisters of Battle player who literally half-assed their 1,500 Points list as we were setting up the table with very little knowledge of their own codex and I still lost. We both had a really fun game (I especially had a fun game because it allowed me to help a friend further understand the rules, make it easy for them, and have fun with the hobby). And before you jump on the bandwagon to disagree with me and s*** on me, this is my perspective. If you're the exact opposite (i.e. competitive is glorious fun for you and casual games are toxic) or whatever, my point still stands.

Yes, we would all love balance, but if I can find the joy in a game with an Edition (7th) that so many members of the Dakka Dakka Community (including myself) considers horrendously imbalanced, then regardless of whether 8th Edition is better or worse, I guarantee players will be able to find the fun in it.


Do GW know what they're doing when it comes to rules? That is highly arguable depending on what standpoint you take, but does that make it abuse towards it's players? No. If you're buying into the hobby, it's not abuse. You take enjoyment from it and you get exactly what you pay for, whether you're paying them so you can build and create models, or add in the gaming element as well. The only "Abuse" that occurs is the abuse people inflict upon themselves. If you don't like the hobby or you don't think it's worth the money, then the only abuse I see occurring is when you still pay GW money for a hobby you don't enjoy.

GW clearly have no clue when it comes to rules.

They had to send people to Adepticon to find out about the flaws in their own ruleset, they clearly are doing zero development (i.e. playtesting).

Our group consensus at the moment is if 8th edition nullifies any of the codices, campaign books, etc we've acquired through 7th, we won't adopt the new system. And if they do away with points like they did with Age of Sigmar, we won't adopt the new system.

Other than those two things, we're trying to keep an open mind, but the move from 6th to 7th has left alot of us skeptical.

zerosignal wrote:
GW clearly have no clue when it comes to rules.

They had to send people to Adepticon to find out about the flaws in their own ruleset, they clearly are doing zero development (i.e. playtesting).

And this has been discussed to death across various threads with a vast array of topics. People still enjoy the game and people still pay GW money. I can say that I both enjoy the game and still buy stuff from GW. If playing the game and participating in these forums has taught me anything, it's this:

Find the niche within this hobby where you find both value and enjoyment, or find another hobby.

Hell, I wish GW wrote better rules. I wish they wrote better, more favourable rules for Orks so that my mate would have more fun with the models that he bought for himself as well as the ones myself and his mates bought for him. I wish for more favourable lore writing towards anything that isn't directly related to the Imperium, but myself and a number of my friends still find enjoyment in this hobby (both in modelling and in game-play). And I can't be a member of the only group that operates and thinks like this.

We can argue until kingdom come about the balance or otherwise of 40K in 7th Edition and what GW should do about it, but the simple fact is this: If you don't think 8th Edition is worth your time or money, the stop playing the game. If the game is all you were in for, then stop paying GW for more models. It's that simple.

I will play whatever is being played at my local hobby store, and I will like it.

I've enjoyed every edition in some form or another, I don't expect this to change. 40K has always had enough options to make for good matches, as long as you properly outfit your army and play with decent people.

Commissar Benny wrote:
Formations in themselves are not bad, but they are being used to resolve balance issues that they simply cannot. Many of the formations take the form of combat multiplier. They have you take (x) unit in bulk and you gain a benefit. The issue with this is, if the unit that is required to be taken is terrible that formation isn't going to help you.

Multiply anything by 0 and you still get 0.

Until GW addresses the primary issue - (codex balance), formations are just like throwing a bandaid on a mortal wound. If a unit isn't worth its point cost, no amount of formation shenanigans is going to fix that. It has to be done at the codex level.

Formations aren't being used to resolve balance issues. Formations are being used to sell models. Riptide Wing solves which issue exactly? IG formations requiring you to buy tons of infantry kits or Leman Russ kits solve which issue? Formations exist to move product, let's not kid ourselves.

All the time an energy they've put into formations and the books they've been printed int, etc. could just have easily been spent on balancing strong/weak units. WH30k manages to offer bonuses and scripted lists without making the game nigh unplayable as 40k is. If the aim of formations were to offer variety and flexibility to the players, then the formations themselves wouldn't consist of 'buy six Riptides!' or 'get 500 points of free stuff', or whatever other incentives they have offered to nudge customers who want to win toward buying kits x, y, and z.

tldr: if formations had any benevolence at all behind them, they would, could, and probably should have been designed to improve gameplay. Which no one can honestly say they have done. It''s their game though, and they will be the ones living/.dying by their choices. In my personal; experience here in Arizona, far more people have left the game altogether than have embraced formation play. In fact, the community here barely exists anymore outside of the tournament weekends that occur every now and then.

 IllumiNini wrote:

We can argue until kingdom come about the balance or otherwise of 40K in 7th Edition and what GW should do about it, but the simple fact is this: If you don't think 8th Edition is worth your time or money, the stop playing the game. If the game is all you were in for, then stop paying GW for more models. It's that simple.

Why so black and white? Wouldn't touch 40k 7th ed again, still playing 40k though.

1) because I play at a GW store, and they won't allow anything but the most current edition/game to be played in their stores. For example, we cannot play WFB 8th Edition or End Times. We must play AoS (or one of the current boxed games) or nothing when it comes to Fantasy.

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:
1) because I play at a GW store, and they won't allow anything but the most current edition/game to be played in their stores. For example, we cannot play WFB 8th Edition or End Times. We must play AoS (or one of the current boxed games) or nothing when it comes to Fantasy.

SG

Yeah I think it would benefit them to loosen their grip a little there. People can still buy new kits to use with older systems. I have never heard a single person say that that is a good policy, but more than a few are turned off by it. I understand the logic behind this policy, but I'm not convinced the benefit of not allowing out of print products in store outweighs alienating the number of people that it does.

And like I said, people can still buy AoS kits to use with WHFB 8th edition. In fact, they might actually find allowing more choices in terms of rulesets attracts a bigger playerbase/customerbase. It just comes across as greedy and short sighted, and is a really odd way of self-promoting.

Honestly, I'd probably just follow whatever my friends do. My love of 40K was recently reignited by the background and models rather than the rules, so I'm just happy painting and playing Tyranids - the actual game mechanics are secondary at this point

-Ben